country frank - Posted - 04/05/2011:  06:52:22

A week or two back i was soliciting information and opinions on fitting up a skin head on my Deering.

Well i got the head [from banjoseen] and fitted it up the other day, firstly it was VERY easy to fit, a little dampening at first and then let it dry out, okay, to my total surprise the thing tensioned up taught and snug almost straight away.

I'd been told to expect humidity issues and the head might slacken/tighten with the weather. Its too early to have noticed anything like that so far but here is what i have noticed;

1. the tone of the banjo is brighter, cleaner and clearer than before.
2. the sound is much warmer and sweeter than before, [almost melodic] with no loss of 'punch'.
3. the banjo looks better than before
4. the banjo 'feels' better than before, it feels quicker to respond{sound} and quicker to decay.....
and here is the clincher for me;
5. there are NO overtones anymore.

I have struggeled with this maple blossom for a few years now, trying to rid it of critically small but never-the-less anoying harmonic overtones. In the preceeding years it has had [in chronological order]; 2 remos [1st one split, second one sounded just plain 'wrong'], a renaissance [which lacked power but sounded pretty good], a 5 star [way too tubby and dampened the cr*p out of the thing], and now this hide head. All of the previous heads gave me a varying amount of trouble with overtones [5 star was by far the worse {yuk}].

If any of you bluegrassers out there are thinking of giving a real hide head a try i'd fully encourage you to do so. Many thanks Bill, i am a convert and i have seen the light!

Thought i'd share it with you and thanks for reading.

Edited by - country frank on 04/05/2011 06:53:44

beegee - Posted - 04/05/2011:  07:42:38

If were were meant to have plastic banjo heads, we'd have plastic calves.

bindle stiff jim - Posted - 04/05/2011:  07:48:21

I recently purchased two to try on a couple of my banjos. Just haven't had time to get them on yet.

country frank - Posted - 04/05/2011:  08:04:31

Bob, so true, i am inclined to think that at least part of the former animal is now once again 'capable of expression'. The banjo does feel more 'alive' now.

Bindle, don't wait, its more fun than i imagined.

jbalch - Posted - 04/05/2011:  08:24:43

Welcome to the club!

I linked this thread to the "Hide Heads" group.

country frank - Posted - 04/05/2011:  08:33:38

Many thanks John, it was your guiding finger of truth that showed me the way.

YYeeehhaaww hide-heads!

Edited by - country frank on 04/05/2011 08:34:15

xnavyguy - Posted - 04/05/2011:  10:32:47

Frank,

The cool thing about you is that you have a real good understanding of your instruments as well as the willingness to come to the forum when you have questions or issues about things you want to change, knowing the resources and assistance you need are right here.  I am so glad you were able to achieve what you wanted and more.

Cheers,

Jerry

Gymbal31 - Posted - 04/05/2011:  14:18:38

Okay.  Been thinking about it for a while.  This thread is convincing me.  Going to give the hide head a try.

Any particular head work best?  Pre-mounted or unmounted?

Bronx banjo - Posted - 04/05/2011:  16:00:13

I give you guys a lot of credit. I've thought of converting to skin over the years but I think my laziness prevented it. The high maintenance of constantly adjusting; loosening, tightening with changes in humidity was quite a feat for professionals like Scruggs. Not to mention the countless tenor players who attached lights to the inside of their banjo pots to dry out the head.  I've often wondered about the tone that only something organic can provide, but then I remember that Scruggs had a plastic head by the time he played Carnegie Hall. Ah well, maybe some day, but for now, it's enough for me to keep my banjo up and running with mylar.

country frank - Posted - 04/07/2011:  02:40:29

Jerry, you are way too kind!, i just like to report on what i find and ask questions about what i don't know. [BTW i still use your bridge on my fender 58 and its still kicking banjo-butt!]

Micky, i used a pre mounted calf skin head from the HOs very own Bill Miller, I asked him which to go for for that flathead bluegrassers sound and he sent me {what was in his opinion} the best head for that sort of banjo.

Contrary to what i had been led to expect i have not encountered any noticable changes in head tension [so far]. The other night i tightened the head down a fair bit more and set about picking the hell of it, i was trying to really get that 'crack' going figuring that it was probably safe to do so now the head had stretched a little. Truth is i went way to far and choked the tone right out, had to back off half a turn all the way round in order for the banjo to come alive again.

That confirmed for me that not only does that hide head work for me [and for that banjo], it is a very viable alternative to a plastic skin. In the end though its all about tone right, well the sound of that banjo is way more sophisticated and complex now, it is difficult to properly describe in words my enthusiasm for this newly dicovered tonal arsenal. It is worth mentioning that as a precautionary measure i have been detuning the strings and if i am not going to get a chance to play for a day or so i flatten the bridge too, just in case....

Anyone toying with the idea, give it a go, you'll be blown away i am sure.

Thanks for reading.

Edited by - country frank on 04/07/2011 02:41:43

Kurt Kemp - Posted - 04/07/2011:  04:18:35

Has anyone had an issue with trying to get the hooks/nuts on because the initial crown is too low? This is one of Bill's premounts I am trying on your standard Gibson banjo. My current head is a medium crown Huber. This hide one looks really low to me.

country frank - Posted - 04/07/2011:  04:45:37

Kurt, Bill suggested dampening the skin prior to fitting IF the nuts wont reach the hooks. Then with the head 'softened'you should be able to make them reach, tighten a little, let it dry out then repeat the proceedure until the stretcher band sits level with the top fret.

Because you can adjust the tension of the head by dampening it is pretty straight forward to get the hide head to fit initially.

I am presuming of course that you mentioned which banjo you would be fitting the head to with Bill, if not then you might want to check with him that you have the correct crown hieght for your flathead..

Edited by - country frank on 04/07/2011 04:47:56

jbalch - Posted - 04/07/2011:  05:09:07

A similar question came up in an e-mail recently.  Actually, the question was in regards to re-wetting a pre-mounted head to stretch it further.  I recommend consulting Bill directly regarding his heads. 

Otherwise, here are a couple of suggestions from my experience:

1. Be careful and patient when installing and stretching.  Don’t stretch it too quickly or you will increase the risk that the skin will fail. Remember that each hide is different.  Some stretch more than others. This is where a little good judgement and experience is helpful.

2. Most skins will continue to stretch slowly for several days after being mounted under tension.  The crown height will settle a little bit higher over time.  If you stretch it too much at first, it may end up too high. I prefer to start out with the tension hoop sitting high.  As long as the hoop does not intefere with the strings (at the neck joint), the higher the better (IMHO).  It will come down over time.

3. If your pre-mounted head requires re-wetting in order to stretch the crown, do this with the head installed on the banjo.  I simply take a moist wash cloth (not dripping wet) and lay it on the mounted head for a brief time.  This allows the hide to absorb a sufficient amount of water to become pliable ... but still retain its mounted shape. When the skin is softened, tighten the hooks all around the rim in small increments to stretch the crown.  Then allow the hide to dry thoroughly before continuing with the set-up.

Don't remove the pre-mounted head from the banjo or soak it while not installed on the rim.  That may cause the hide to lose its shape and come completely off the flesh hoop. It might be very difficult or  impossible to re-mount a head in this condition.

Kurt Kemp - Posted - 04/07/2011:  05:39:27

I have victory. Finally got the thing on this morning. One part of the skin unraveled off the brass hoop and I have it tucked back in for the most part. I put that part at the neck to help hold it in place while I got it together. As it sits right now it is on and fairly taught. I am letting it settle a little but the one very small piece where the hide was coming off the ring seems to be holding. I can see a little brass showing so I'll be watching it. More to follow....

country frank - Posted - 04/07/2011:  06:15:45

Many thanks again John for your help, i am slightly concerned that i might have [provisionaly] over tightened the head in light of your last post. Guess i'll just have to wait and see how much more the tension hoop comes down over time. Right now i have it dead flush with the fretboard, pretty much exactly where i would want it to be.........hhhmmmm. I feel more learning coming on.

Regardless of whether or not i have cocked it up the banjo still sounds killer to me.

Kurt, sounds like good news, please post back with your impressions once you have it up and running.

jbalch - Posted - 04/07/2011:  08:57:34

Good luck to both of you!  A good piece of hide can be pretty strong and forgiving. I hope your results are great!

beegee - Posted - 04/07/2011:  16:56:04

I had a Rogers head on my old Granada for many years. It finally tore and I've been using Remos. A friend recently sent me another vintage head off a TB-3. I'm going to mount it on my Granada. I may try a new hide head on my top-tension Lane.

Tomcat - Posted - 04/11/2011:  05:22:34

I just ordered a premount calfskin from Bill at banjoseen, for my RK60. Can't wait to get it on there.

Kurt Kemp - Posted - 04/11/2011:  05:26:19

well, I tried it and really didn't like it. It was too tubby sounding for me. Sounded fantastic up the neck though. I continued to tighten it over about a 3-4 day period up to a G-G# and it sounded ok but not what I was looking for. I came down stairs yesterday afternoon and it was split already. I guess hide heads are not for me.

skybolt - Posted - 04/12/2011:  19:27:32

Hide head blues...

Kurt Kemp - Posted - 04/14/2011:  04:40:17

Ya, I'm not out of the game yet though. I am going to try it again.

Tomcat - Posted - 04/15/2011:  13:05:48

Welp! Got it on today! I must say"why didn't I do this sooner" Installation went without a hitch. At first it sounded as tubby as a doghouse bass but with in moments it started comeing in. AWESOME! Can't wait till it settles for a little while. And I love the look. Not that bright white, kinda off white. Really makes this custom project complete now. I'll post a sound file next week when it's settled in good.

Edited by - Tomcat on 04/15/2011 13:09:19

ecclest - Posted - 04/16/2011:  18:08:49

I've had a Goldtone pre-shrunk, pre-mounted hide head on my R&T for 4 years and have adjusted it once and it is stable and always sounds amazing. It is warm and fat but also can be as crisp as you want. The sound is way more 3 dimensional. It doesn't need to be as tight and actually doesn't sound as good when too tight. I think I have it tuned a little off of F#. The head's a little more expensive but worth it. As someone else mentioned, listen to 'Hide Head Blues'.

t

country frank - Posted - 05/19/2011:  07:25:42

Gotta say i just keep loving the feel and sound of this thing now. Ecclest you said it best; 'The sound is way more 3 dimensional' Amen!

vernob - Posted - 05/19/2011:  11:13:36

The banjo was invented with a hide head. Remember that "plastic" was once derogatory term. That being said, if you live in Florida, like I do,  or anywhere with high humidity you know that hide heads go crazy at times. Hide heads are the real deal. Mylar ones are more consistent. Pick the one that works for you.

vintagewells - Posted - 05/19/2011:  13:52:50

As to tension vs. humidity> I installed a hide on my 8" banjo and the humidity was under 5%. So it was really tight. and bright and the banjo had a pop that you wouldn't believe for a little banjo.

Last night it rained and the head had loosened up considerably and was sounding really plunky.  AS the  humidity drops it is tightening right up.

I kinda like the changes - makes me think I am playing different banjos!

Jason Wilkerson - Posted - 09/08/2011:  13:26:32

Country Frank,

I've been reading this thread with interest.  A couple of months ago, I switched my openback to a Bill Miller premount, and love it.  The improvement in tone was dramatic.  I've been considering doing the same for my bluegrass banjo.  I've read your comments about your satisfaction.  Now that you've had it on for a few months, have you had any issues with the head?  The reason for my question is this: my openback banjo has a much higher action than my bluegrass banjo, therefore, it can be more forgiving when the humidity changes.  My bluegrass banjo is much less forgiving.  Have you had any buzzing issues?   You have some humidity swings in the UK, don't you?

goldtopia - Posted - 09/08/2011:  14:22:53

About 50 years or so ago when the Americans invented the plastic head the British looked upon it as being unnatural and typically American. Also  it was called  the head when everyone knows the head is the peghead and the er plastic head is really a plastic vellum. Well anyway, this  this plastic head thing gradually came to be accepted. But many of the old timers who played mostly zither banjos, who have all died by now, still stuck with the skin vellum.

One of the  banjos I bought around that time had a er', plastic head. Surprisingly,  I was quite impressed by the way it was unaffected by the weather and the tone always stayed the same.

Though I still like skin vellums because they are real and traditional, I have been  considering putting one on my Fitch Palomino, but I don't know if it would fit.  I remember there was a special ring for the vellum which was trimmed afterwards when dry whereas modern banjos are made differently

Bill.O

motleyminstrels.co.uk

elohim-ufogods.co.uk

Edited by - goldtopia on 09/08/2011 14:24:46

coelhoe - Posted - 09/08/2011:  15:41:56

I would think that if you live in the UK where the ambient humidity is always quite high, a skin head (banjo, not recalcitrant adolescent) will stay nice and tight, but if you manage to take the instrument to some place warm and dry, say Spain or the Med, your "vellum" will split ASAP.

Humidity swings in the UK? Yes, from very humid to even more humid (often known as rain and fog).

tdennis - Posted - 09/08/2011:  16:15:39

Humidity changes everywhere on a daily/weekly/seasonal  basis. If you favor the enriched voice of a skin head , you learn to monitor & generally be more aware of this condition, & adjust the instrument accordingly.    The danger zone for all instruments made of natural materials is humidity approaching 20%.  This will crack banjo heads, wood,  as well as guitars etc.,   loosening & tightening the head becomes routine,  but  well worth it.   I have maintained many banjos &  calf headed drum sets w/out skin conditioners for decades.   There are several heating/tightening tricks that have served  musicians prior to the use of mylar in the late 50's.  I also got used to my instrument sounding different as the humidity changed. 

Edited by - tdennis on 09/08/2011 16:28:10

Brett - Posted - 09/09/2011:  04:59:59

I tried one of the premounted gold tones on my granada and it just sounded awful no matter what.  It was very thick.  I will probably try another skin head this winter when I get bored and can't get outside, but I'll try something different than the gold tone premount.  I think it's "probably" tougher to live with if you play bluegrass with a really low action, because of the loosening/tightening required will affect your action, all other things being left alone.  I'm very positive I could live with it on my mid 20s Vega and for clawhammer, because I use a much higher action anyhow, so I can hit it fairly hard.  Most of the old banjos I've lucked up on with skin heads, the skin starts to pull away from the little stretcher hoop and you just keep tightening to no avail until you realize what happened.  I think I have 1 left that's intact, but I recall it's a 10.5 or so.  I would like to set up one of my spare bluegrass banjos with a very nice quality skin head.

Bart McNeil - Posted - 09/09/2011:  06:48:42

I can't claim expertise,,, but having banjos with both skin and plastic heads I prefer the skin for mellow tone.... I do not play in public or play bluegrass. My plastic headed banjos are louder and more aggressive, probably more suited for bluegrass. I enjoy both type heads, but prefer skin. I also enjoy fussing with my skin heads as humidity changes. If I had to choose I would choose skin.