pipefitter61 - Posted - 03/12/2011:  14:39:00

I just finished putting a hide head from a pre-war oriole onto my pre-war flathead conversion. I have to say WOW! This thing sounds incredible! I can't get over it.... Now all of my other banjos are looking awfully suspiciously at me like they might be next.....I'm hooked

pluckyfingers - Posted - 03/12/2011:  14:50:47

What type of hide head (mounted, pre mounted) and banjo did you put it on? How has it changed the sound?

jims38134 - Posted - 03/12/2011:  15:02:38

Congrats. I am glad you are a convert. jim

Ks_5-picker - Posted - 03/12/2011:  15:15:11

I got an old banjo newsletter from 1979.Sonny Osborne was happy that he'd just found 6 brand new Rogers heads and he was going to use them.I posted on the Chief thread and asked him about it. He said he gave up on them.The tone was great,as you noticed,but the upkeep and tinkering with them all the time to keep them sounding good outside was too much to bear.
So,if you never take them out into the humidity,they'll be fine.

Slingerland - Posted - 03/12/2011:  16:12:19

Congrats!

pipefitter61 - Posted - 03/12/2011:  16:27:00

This one rarely goes out of the house, so the humidity is fairly constant. The only way I can describe the tone is a little darker than plastic, but still crisp enough to sound great up the neck. It also seems to have more of a mid range thing going on.. Kind of a rattly sound....The head was transferred directly off of an Oriole I had laying around. I'm glad I did it..

The Old Timer - Posted - 03/12/2011:  16:37:39

Hide head tone is a beautiful thing when the head is at equilibrium! Even on an arch top!

kevinwholmes - Posted - 03/12/2011:  16:39:05

I've heard of people in humid areas (like Hilton Head, SC where I have a banjo friend who says he has to use synthetic) having terrible problems with skin heads going soft. I live in NC where we have wide up and down swings in humidity. Almost all my banjos have skin heads and I haven't noticed any horrible problems other than they sometimes go out of tune as the humidity goes up or down. I guess it depends upon where you live and where you play, but my experience has been good and the small extra maintenance is worth it to have the skin head instead of synthetic.

pipefitter61 - Posted - 03/12/2011:  16:55:27

Well, one of the reasons I did it, was the period correctness of it. It came off a pre-war, and went right back on one. I'm going to try and get a soundbite in the next day or so after it settles in a bit.. All indications are......It's staying right where it is!

tomberghan - Posted - 03/12/2011:  16:56:28

I agree . . . they sound fantastic.
I am happy for you!
I also play drums and I think they sound superior for drums as well.

Read this if you have a situation of changing dew point.
The short story is that you spray the head with silcone water proofing spray for leather, when you first install the hide head, to keep the hide from taking on moisture in humid weather, and then, always keep the head appropriately moist, not dry (it is counter intuitive). I use a "Dampit" to achieve this.

I keep the head nice and tight all the time. There is no problem of course when it is humid. The danger is if the conditions become excessively dry very quickly. When it is really dry, I use the dampit (in the case) and I have not had any issues what-so-ever. I have flown all of the world many times with my banjos (which is the most severe test there is; desert consitions one day, tropic conditions the next.) I always tighten or loosen my banjo by means of the J-Bolts (just to touch up the tuning of the head, which is not often required) and I NEVER use heat on the hide such as a hair dryer. You see, my method (again) is to keep the head appropriately moist and conditioned using the Dampit. The hide-head is leather and so drying it out will shorten the life of the skin
banjohangout.org/myhangout/pho...albumid=0

Edited by - tomberghan on 03/12/2011 17:06:14

New Technology for keeping your skin head safe

pipefitter61 - Posted - 03/12/2011:  17:28:21

makes perfect sense to me! Thanks for the tip..

dpbaker - Posted - 03/12/2011:  18:04:33

I slapped one on my Gibson ESS yesterday. Bought it from W.D. Miller at Banjoseen.us. I really like the tone. I might be a convert as well. If you end up putting one on one of your newer banjos, I would be interested in getting your opinion on what you think. I posted a sound file on my profile page of the ESS with the hide head.

Dave

pipefitter61 - Posted - 03/12/2011:  21:46:49

I just did a couple of soundbites. This is less than 4 hours after being put together. Please disregard the sloppy haphazard picking.

Kurt Kemp - Posted - 03/13/2011:  01:22:22

That sounds fantastic! Has great tone and still has a little snap or twang I like.

That sloppy rendition of Blackberry Blossom was excellent. I strive to be as sloppy as you!

-Kurt

RB100 - Posted - 03/13/2011:  01:56:37

quote:

---

Originally posted by pipefitter61

I just did a couple of soundbites. This is less than 4 hours after being put together. Please disregard the sloppy haphazard picking.

---

lightgauge - Posted - 03/13/2011:  05:22:38

Nice job Ed and sounds great.
I got my old tone hoop 11 out yesterday and played it a while. I started thinking the old sound is pretty good. No overtones or ringiness, just good solid notes. Very much like what you found. I believe we have been overreaching sometimes, looking for something that is already there. Good luck with that weather thing.

dpbaker - Posted - 03/13/2011:  05:27:32

Ed,

Sounds awesome and great pickin'. Keep that hide head right where it is!

Dave

Bass Lady - Posted - 03/13/2011:  05:37:03

I wish I could play that sloppy!!!!!

jbalch - Posted - 03/13/2011:  07:05:27

Ed and others:

I've switched to hide heads on all of my openbacks over the past couple of years. I also have a calfskin head on my 1929 Gibson TB-1 conversion by Arthur Hatfield.

I also sometimes mount new skin heads for friends and local pickers. I recently installed a calfskin head on a 1932 Gibson style 5 (see below).

I love the sound and find them to be very dependable here in Middle Tennessee. There is some small variation throughout the year based on weather. But I would not use anything else. The awesome sound and feel is well worth the insignificant amount of re-tenioning I might occasionally have to do.

Here are some tips from my experience that I hope are helpful:

1. Brand new heads require a period of time to season and become stable. They sound great after 24-48 hours. But it really takes a few weeks before they are very well-stretched and reach full potential. When they are settled, they hold tension quite well and sound amazing. Be patient.

2. High-quality skins (free of natural defects) can take a good bit of tension. But again...be patient and tighten slowly.

3. Resources:
Bill Miller is a great source for supplies and pre-mounted heads banjoseen.us/Store/index.html

- Bill's bleached goatskin heads are very white - they look great. the sound is a little "darker" than calf.

- Vellum-processed calfskin makes a great sounding head. the hides seem a little stiffer than regular calfskin and have a crisp tone. the also seem very strong. These hides have a slightly "mottled" appearance.

Jeff Menzies has a great source for bleached calfskin hides (unmounted). His hides are good quality and very affordable. (jeffreymenzies.com/)

Stern Tanning Co. skins are the best quality I have found. Jeff Stern bought the equipment and business of the former United Rawhide in Chicago, IL/ United manufactured drum and banjo heads for Ludwig and others for several decades. Stern's heads are machine sanded and processed like vintage heads. They have a very smooth feel and even thickness. These are quite a bit more expensive...but well worth the cost for a special banjo (IMHO). sterntanning.com/percussion.htm

Check out the photos of various hide heads on my homepage: banjohangout.org/myhangout/pho...umid=2775

Stern Tanning calfskin on a 1932 style 5:


Bill Miller bleached goatskin on 1929 Gibson TB-1 conversion:

Edited by - jbalch on 03/13/2011 07:07:52

Joe Jakonczuk - Posted - 03/13/2011:  07:08:28

And just what animals are going to have to sacrifice themselves for you??

501jaycash - Posted - 03/13/2011:  07:11:47

Soundgs super.

pipefitter61 - Posted - 03/13/2011:  07:54:43

Bobby, it is kinda funny how things we overlook for all the "modern", "improved" technology. The high tech stuff was designed to imitate the old stuff, only cheaper and faster. We actually had what "the" sound was all along.

Bill, I have been thinking about putting a tune down in Tucker with this banjo. Wish you were close enough to Atlanta to pick this thing. The zoom recorder didn't really do it justice. It's MUCH better in person.

John, as usual you are a veritable wealth of information. That style 5 is sexy any way you look at it!!!! That's the way they looked when they left Gibson back in the day. We need to get together sometime, and do some gabbing.

Joe, your big ole shoes took up (2) of these heads!! LOL.. Thanks for the kind words on the picking. I'm slowing down, and 17 years away from it didn't help either. But I'm having a blast relearning what I forgot.

tomberghan - Posted - 03/13/2011:  08:55:44

John (Balch),
You of course remember my 1929 TB2 . . . and when I bought it, it had a very old Amrawco head on it. I did a little research and discovered that was an old company (long gone) by the name of "Amrawco" which stood for the American Rawhide Company of Chicago. Is this the same company as the United Rawhide Company of Chicago?

It seems like it should be excecpt that in the old days Chicago was a HUB for cattle yards and meat processing so United may have been a competitor to Amrawco.

The old Amrawco head is fantastic but it sat for too many years in a musty case and the smell is not bearable according to my family (its pretty bad, and yes I tried airing it forever and a day but to no avail). I replaced it with a bleached goatskin. It does not sound quite as good as the old Amrawco head but it is very close. Maybe it DOES sound as good but just different. I think it is the latter.

So far I have always been too lazy to mount a skin on the hoop but I really need to try this someday . . . it seems pretty easy . . . saves 20 bucks! The Stern Hides you should me did seem to be the absolute best! Very hard (as in cured well) and completely smooth. After you should be the Stern hide, I took the clue and sanded my goat skin hide with very very light grade emery paper that I broke the grit on first (sanded it against itself first). I did this in the area my finger rests on the head so it would be silent as I moved across the head. It worked!!! and did not have any adverse affect on the tone. It was simply speeding up the process of burnishing the head (as if it had been played for 20 years . . . I didn't want to wait).

pipefitter61 - Posted - 03/13/2011:  09:14:33

Here she is in all her glory! Note the stain from the rim of the previous 80+ year old banjo rim it was sitting on. This adds even more mystique for me. If this thing could talk....

jbalch - Posted - 03/13/2011:  09:16:45

Tom:

I think Amrawco might have been the house brand for United Rawhde..but I've not confirmed it. Jeff might know for sure. From what I read, Jeff bought the business and equipment from the man who owned and operated it from the beginning in Chicago. They made heads for Ludwig and possible Slingerland for decades.

Jeff Stern is a great guy to deal with. I've spoken with him on the phone several times and really enjoy doing businees with him. He processes superior quality hides for lots of different uses (furniture etc.) His main musical business is high-end percussion. Orchestral percussion players are his primary clientelle. Jeff would like to see his products recognized and accepted more in the banjo market. A stern banjo head will cost about $30-45 unmounted depending on size. I think they are the closest thing to the old heads that I've found.

Because it is a machine-sanding process, Jeff can customize the thickness and surface finish somewhat. He makes each head to order...so you can tell him exactly what you want. The process takes a few days because it is not an off-the-shelf item.

Bill Miller's and Jeff Menzies skins are very good too and much more affordable (about half the cost of a Stern skin). I have Miller or Menzies hides on several of my banjos too. I don't think they are sanded precisely (if at all) and therefore there is a little more variation in thickness across the hide. This can make it a little more difficult to tune the head...but I've always been able to get pleasing results with heads from Miller & Menzies too.

It is good to have these options.

jbalch - Posted - 03/13/2011:  09:22:14

I love this old Life Magazine photo of Wade Mainer playing his Granada (Before Gibson refurbished it and ripped him off). This is the way a banjo head should look IMHO:

tomberghan - Posted - 03/13/2011:  09:25:29

quote:

---

Originally posted by pipefitter61

Here she is in all her glory! Note the stain from the rim of the previous 80+ year old banjo rim it was sitting on. This adds even more mystique for me. If this thing could talk....

---

Frisco Fred - Posted - 03/13/2011:  09:31:02

Nice playing Ed and thanks for offering the results of your testing.

Yeah, the responsiveness of the natural skin head on my 20's Vegaphone really set me back. I don't know it's age but it's old, and this old skin sings like no get out.

Of the five banjos I have, no mylar head responds like the natural skin head.

All this info on maintance is great, cause I've been treating that head like a baby.

pipefitter61 - Posted - 03/13/2011:  09:35:55

John, I've only heard bits and pieces of the Wade Mainer story. I'd like to hear what you know. Send it to me in a PM. But your right. Banjos don't get that kind of look sitting in a case, or in a closet somewhere. The dirt is appalling to some. To me, it's euphoria.

Thanks for the compliment Fred. I passed it along to the old gal!

Edited by - pipefitter61 on 03/13/2011 09:37:13

pipefitter61 - Posted - 03/13/2011:  09:44:24

Tom, I don't know about the deserved part. She's been a good friend for a number of years. She sits on her stand quietly waiting for me to notice her and spend some time with her. This new hide has sparked a new infatuation with her. She really enjoys it. I can hear it in her voice!

DEmery - Posted - 03/13/2011:  10:18:21

I agree with John Balch's comments about skin. He got me off plastic for the most part and has done several dry mounts for me to install on my banjos. Attached is a TB 1 that John once owned and he was kind to sell it to me some time ago. He mounted this skin for me and it really performs well. Not only does it provide a tone that would have been true to the period of this banjo but it simply looks great. Why buy a plastic head made to appear like skin when you can have a skin head. Lastly for those that think they are fragile...they are not and if treated with a modicum of care - they present little problem. With leather treatment they prove to be rather stable as well. David E.

Edited by - DEmery on 03/13/2011 10:20:27

John Balch mounted skin head

1931 TB1 Gibson with Robin Smith Neck

jbalch - Posted - 03/13/2011:  13:31:08

David's TB-1 is one of the BEST banjos I ever had...remind me again why I let you get it from me?

That head is a bleached calfskin from Jeff Menzies.

Here is David playing his 1931 Gibson banjo...and Pastor Harry Timmins with my 1934 Recording King guitar in my kitchen a few years ago at Uncle Dave Macon Days:


Even Ronnie Collins approved of your old banjo David...he still talks about it: (BTW - the metal on David's banjo is all original...but look how it shines).

Edited by - jbalch on 03/13/2011 13:38:08

Timeless1952 - Posted - 03/13/2011:  13:38:13

Ed my Brother welcome to the Dark side. What type of head did you use. I have a old Roger's 3 Star on a banjo now. If you keep that banjo home & never take it anywhere you should have little problem with it. I have one of those heads on a banjo and your in the right situation, there is nothing better and I do mean nothing! That being said if have the banjo is in place where the conditions are bad they don't sound bad, they sound Real Bad! I gave a Hangout member a Rogers 3 Star to put on his 25 Gibson archtop BB and that banjo absolutely sounds it's very best when that head is on there. I saw him at the MACC and he was try to play the banjo outside late at nite. The banjo just wouldn't work for him. He'll be the 1st to tell you that the tone with the Rogers can't be beat but the banjo is different everyday. He soon took the head off. You can find old photos of Earl in the 50's and most of them if you can see the banjo well you'll see that his banjo only has 2 thumb screws in it. I let you draw your own conclusion on that one. There are other things too like when those break it usually splits all the way arcross the head. It can sound like a 410 shotgun going off. These things kept a banjo about broke trying to keep on one the banjo back then. Like today they weren't cheap. They cost about $18 for the 3 Star head and the bad thing about was that you could very easily break the thing putting it one. I love them but the best thing to come along for the Bluegrass player was the plastic head.
Good luck with it my friend.
K

pipefitter61 - Posted - 03/13/2011:  14:13:14

Hey Kennnnnnnny! When I got my '4 as an archtop it had a skin head on it. I have never even messed with one till now. This ole conversion LOVES it. I've played more in 2 days than I have in 2 months. It's been on there for almost 24 hours now, and it has settled in a bit. I got this head off that old Oriole I bought a while back. I took it off there, and put it right back on this one. Fit like a glove it did! There MUST be a way to keep this sound without all the plastic, or fiddling around with it... I'm gonna leave it on here till it pops. This one don't go out of the house much, so I'll just enjoy it all by myself...

I hear Naugyhide doesn't have as many problems, but since Naugies have become endangered because of the car industry skinning all of them, that's out of the question.

pipefitter61 - Posted - 03/13/2011:  14:17:49

Kenny, I just did this one a few minutes ago. It is settling in real nice. Notice I did not attempt the famous ending

Timeless1952 - Posted - 03/13/2011:  14:25:29

You just don't want to hear Hon say no no No NO, Give Me That!
K

pipefitter61 - Posted - 03/13/2011:  15:06:14

Perzackly!

jbalch - Posted - 03/14/2011:  07:29:42

Ed:

Kenny's comments are valid. You guys definitely play in a wider range of conditions than I. My banjos are used moslty here at home and at local jam sessions with friends. I do sometimes play outdoors...at a festival or pickin' party...but usually only in good weather.

I took my Gibson TB-1 (with a then brand-new skin head) to play bluegrass in Woodbury one night last summer. The head was not well-seasoned. It had been very hot humed and muggy. We were pickin' on the back porch of the Old Feed Store Antique Mall. About the time we started...it rained like Cats & Dogs. We all moved indoors...but by then the head on my Gibson was very mushy. It was playable and I finished the set. But in those extreme conditions...I was wishing for a plastic head.

Around here, I usually tighten the heads a little extra in the humid summertime...and loosen in winter while the gas heat is running. Here are two more things that help me on my skin-head banjos:

1. I use a slightly taller bridge with natural skin heads than mylar (11/16" currently ... .656 or 5/8 with mylar).

2. I also carry a spare 3/4" bridge in my case. I use this bridge in very humid weather.

I do not have calfskin on my Williams KI model banjo. It is set with an old REMO. But on my old Gibson, I love the sound and feel of calfskin. In most conditions, it is awesome.

Stern tanning Co head on my 1929 TB-1 (tone hoop) conversion:

Edited by - jbalch on 03/14/2011 07:33:10

pipefitter61 - Posted - 03/14/2011:  07:42:24

No calfskin on the Williams???? Blasphemy!!! LOL.... I picked this ole pre-war for the experiment because it is like the one's you are describing. It stays in the house most of the time. I'm just enjoying the nostalgic ride. And the tone is fabulous.

rockb59 - Posted - 03/14/2011:  17:55:02

Hey Ed
That sounded great with the hide head. Fine banjo pickin!!
How did you record yourself?
Do you play into a mike hooked up to the computer?
I have been interested in recording myself, by myself and
haven't done that since a cassette recorder!
That banjo sounded nice and old! Just like us!!

pipefitter61 - Posted - 03/14/2011:  20:25:07

Ha Rock... I hear ya! I used a zoom h2 recorder. They reproduce the sound exactly. What you play is what you get! Then just pop the card out and into the computer, and download. You could also use the usb cable. I love mine. Best out there....

Paul Gorman - Posted - 03/14/2011:  21:01:15

Looka there. The head is right on the plane with the neck and the bottom of the hook notches. Dry and tight. That's how to do it.Thanks for the great shot, John

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 03/14/2011:  21:49:53

I have a couple few hide head banjos around the house - but that is the operative term. They stay IN THE HOUSE. Even at that my oldest banjo (Jackie-O - my avatar) is unplayable about 6 months out of the year because her bracket hooks will open up if you attempt to tighten them enough to matter. I used to use about 4 different bridges, but she still was a problem. All my 'let's go to jams' banjos have artificial material heads. I too prefer the sound of skin - but I've spent too much of my life fussing with hide heads now. I want to play more and work less.

I studied Classical Banjo around 1960. My teacher was in his 70s and had a Whyte Laydie # 7 he bought new in 1914. It was in beautiful condition save for a whole lot of small screw holes inside the rim. When I asked about them, he told me he had electric lights wired up inside the head to keep it up to tension when playing in the summertime or near the ocean. Drummers did the same thing. I'm thinking about it, but it would mean going back to being plugged in. I would still have to have one plastic top for playing outside - there is no such thing as low humidity in NC during the summer.

Edited by - oldwoodchuckb on 03/14/2011 21:58:39

J.B. Schall circa 1893

RSB mid

Jackie O

pipefitter61 - Posted - 03/15/2011:  16:19:25

You are right on. That North Carolina place is a SAUNA in the summertime! A literal sweatbox. Nice country though

rockb59 - Posted - 03/15/2011:  18:18:38

Hey Ed
What kind of "conversion" is that , that your a pickin on???
It sounds mighty fine!!
I saw the front , but what about her backside!!
Thanks for the info on that zoom recorder I looked at one on E-bay around $100 - $150!
By the way I am glad to hear your pickin, you have a nice roll and an individual style that
has a good syncopation!
I have an original 30's Recording King tenor pot with a OPF and I put an original 5-string Kalamazoo mahogany neck on it,, a little "retro-fittin" to the rim ,flat back reso and it is great! Not the pretty banjo but kind of funky! Sure gets the looks at the festivals. I put a 70's Liberty tone ring in it and it sounds great.
I did have a hide head on until I ripped it , I might go back !
Glad you are back to pickin and the banjo it sounds good!!
Rock from Kalamazoo

eMike - Posted - 03/15/2011:  18:51:13

Ed,

That banjo and pickin sounds mighty fine. I haven't had a hide head on a banjo for a while. I've got some old Rogers heads. When you put one on, do you dampen it or put it on dry?

Thanks,

Mike

pipefitter61 - Posted - 03/15/2011:  19:36:31

Rock, that's an old Oriole conversion. McPeake ring. A mahogany wreath neck that I built. The resonator came off a tb11 that the MOTS was peeling off of. When the overlay was removed, there was GREAT maple on the back. Unfortunately they cut the neck notch, so that the grain was oriented in the wrong direction. (guess we can guess why it became a tb11 res) It 's always been one of my favorites, but the hide really brought out something that wasn't there before. The recording king sounds interesting. I Like 'em when they don't conform to "cookie cutter" patterns. The flatback resonators are way underrated in my opinion..

Mike, I put this one on dry. It was already fitted to a rim. I may have done it wrong, but it sure sounds good! I think if you dampen them they will shrink up really tight. for the initial install, it might be necessary.

Edited by - pipefitter61 on 03/15/2011 19:46:59

country frank - Posted - 04/05/2011:  07:04:49

Ed, Oh boy so am I!!

I just cant believe what a difference a hide head made to my Deering, [just posted on another thread];

banjohangout.org/topic/203838

It was after reading your posts here that i finally took the plunge, man am i grateful to you!

pipefitter61 - Posted - 04/05/2011:  17:43:10

Nice ain't it? I've had some "floppy" days already, but I just put it aside, and played something else till she drew back up...