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Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/200003
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Hotrodtruck - Posted - 02/18/2011: 18:31:58
Here is a video of the Group The Brothers Four on the old Hootenany show. This is in 1963 (before a lot of you were born) when the folk music scene helped young people get interested in bluegrass. This is a neat arrangement of Darling Corey , featuring a long neck, open back banjo picking some good bluegrass style music. Many of the young people were not familiar with bluegrass, and these guys helped open their eyes.
youtube.com/watch?v=9QHGDAiWJB...e=related
Enjoy
Mike
Pig_Eyed_Jackson - Posted - 02/18/2011: 18:46:45
Hmmmm, just how did he get that Mastertone sound on an open back playing at the"Y?"
wwatson - Posted - 02/18/2011: 18:55:27
Pig eyed is correct. That banjo was not making that music. I'm from that era and loved and played folk music, but my bluegrass inspiration was Flat and Scruggs.
Hotrodtruck - Posted - 02/18/2011: 19:00:27
"Hmmmm, just how did he get that Mastertone sound on an open back playing at the"Y?"
Same recording technology used for Flatt and Scruggs...
Mike
BNJOMAKR - Posted - 02/18/2011: 19:30:56
quote:
Hmmmm, just how did he get that Mastertone sound on an open back playing at the"Y?"
kirbonite - Posted - 02/18/2011: 19:32:37
Great Audience...
much better than the one that was there the night before..
mrbook - Posted - 02/18/2011: 23:29:35
The folkies I knew back in the 60s used to say, "I'd like to be able to play like Earl Scruggs - and not do it!"
I never understood it, because I thought Earl was pretty good back then (and now).
gradelyduck - Posted - 02/19/2011: 03:07:04
It shows that "miming" has been going on for a long time.
buckbybanjoboy - Posted - 02/19/2011: 03:34:43
Total sham. Perhaps they were miming to a studio recorded track, with a session scruggs player. This sort of thing wouldn`t happen today...............................would it?
BrianBanjos - Posted - 02/19/2011: 04:19:08
In defense of The Brothers Four, they were real musicians. They were in that mold of hokey commercial folk groups which doesn't hold up well over time but there was good musianship. You will find lots of lip syncing on old TV shows. Did Flatt and Scruggs play live on the Beverly Hillbillys? I was watching some old video of a variety of old country stars recently, Pre outlaw Waylon, Del Reeves, and so fourth...all one guy faking along to his record on TV.
I have a growing collection of what I refer to as "hokey folk" records with titles such as Hootenany Party Pack. Some of its dreadful, most is an obvious attempt to cash in on the Kingston Trio, and occasionally there is something worth listening to. It could definately have led an impressional youth down the path to "harder stuff" and doubtless did. (Speaking as a classical music fan and collector who got started with Days Of Future Passed by the Moody Blues)
Paul R - Posted - 02/19/2011: 06:18:06
It's a clip from a rather lame (really? how could you possibly tell?!) movie called "Hootenanny Hoot" (how lame can you get?) that got a scathing review in Sing Out! back in the day.
These guys were decent enough musicians, but were definitely on the commercial side of things. Their perfromances were very polished and "professional". They did a lot of college gigs and would throw in some "in" reference to the particular campus they were playing (they played our winter carnival). There are two schools of thought about these groups. Either they attracted people to folk music, and those people went on to discover the real thing, or people just listened to them until the next big thing came along.
Mock turtlenecks with short sleeved shirts?
mainejohn - Posted - 02/19/2011: 12:08:04
On the first one or two Brothers Four albums, Mike Kirkland played a tenor banjo, which he strummed. By the time "Roamin' With the Brother's IV" was released, which I bought new in '61, he had switched to the more fashionable PS-5 Vega longneck, and his picking style at that point was elementary at best. They pretty much rode the coat tails of the more popular Kingston Trio (along with many other groups), but were still very successful and popular in their own right on the college tour back then. I recall buying their albums while waiting with baited breath for the next Kingston Trio album to come out. I had never seen this disappointing video clip and it was pretty obvious from the first few notes that the Scruggs-style picking had been dubbed. FWIW, and for you BF junkies, (assuming there are any) Bob Flick, the bass player player, recently married Loni Anderson of "WKRP" fame and fortune.
steve davis - Posted - 02/19/2011: 12:37:06
I think that just seeing someone in a band holding a banjo helped sales and
was all that was needed to get some kids started.
kirbonite - Posted - 02/19/2011: 12:48:59
anyone know who the Scruggs player was on this?
He (or she) is very good. IMO
Pig_Eyed_Jackson - Posted - 02/19/2011: 12:56:28
quote:
In defense of The Brothers Four, they were real musicians. They were in that mold of hokey commercial folk groups which doesn't hold up well over time but there was good musianship. You will find lots of lip syncing on old TV shows. Did Flatt and Scruggs play live on the Beverly Hillbillys? I was watching some old video of a variety of old country stars recently, Pre outlaw Waylon, Del Reeves, and so fourth...all one guy faking along to his record on TV.
robbif - Posted - 02/19/2011: 13:18:41
Geesh...I couldn't even watch the video all the way through!
I'll have to admit, in person, they were good entertainers. Yes, "polished" and all that.
Ironically, yesterday I spent a long time rummaging through my unorganized photos looking for something else and I saw the 8x10 glossy below. But I just went through them all again...and, sure enough, at the bottom of the last box I found it again. I got it when they played at Stetson University in the early 60s... 
Edited by - robbif on 02/19/2011 13:34:46
robbif - Posted - 02/19/2011: 14:58:32
I just went scrounging for some other prints that I'm been procrastinating about scanning. I don't know if I found them all, but here are the Kingston Trio in Jacksonville, Fla. ca 1963 (before I was "converted"!).
frobbi.org/slides/kingstontrio
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 02/19/2011: 16:11:31
The Brothers Four were a fraternity quartet (believe it of not that was the sort of things frat guys did in the 50s). They did all sorts of songs and played NO instruments. That was also a common thread of the frat groups. Then the folk explosion happened and because one of them was related to a record producer they got a chance to record. Professional musicians were hired to do the back-up.
Over time the group did learn how to play some, but the records were always recorded with studio musicians backing them up.
I learned this at a frat house from a couple members of the group. I used to play chess with one of the guys and they Hosted the Brothers Four, when they came to play the college. They tended to only play colleges where there was a frat house they could stay at - at least in their early days. They were not shy at all about admitting they weren't instrumentalists.
Hootenanny Hoot ws one of those ultra cheap youth exploitation film happening at the time. Judy Henske used to have a really funny bit about singing a spiritual surrounded by Bob Fosse wannabes. But she wasn't actually singing.
All of the performances in the movie were lip-synched (a la American Bandstand performences) using the original recordings of the performers.
By 1963 the "bluegrass" explosion, had in fact happened and been forgotten - folk trends were coming at the rate of one every six months and you could tell what trend people followed by how they dressed (I can see by your outfit that you are a Clancy Bros fan.
By 63 the Hootenanny movie was way out of date. Folk performances were rapidly turning into the Bob Dylan wannabes - although there were still some Joan Baez wannabes around. This led to a lot of couples performing together. Some were even good - Like Ian and Sylvia. I think the arrival of Peter Paul and Mary with their mix of Dylan, the most popular recent top 40 folk songs (Kumbyah, Michael Row The Boat, ad nauseum) and More Dylan, had a lot to do with the end of the folk era -- everyone was sick of hearing the same 30 Dylan songs recorded by newer and ever more bland, boring vocal groups. Every group recorded every song - I swear it was THE LAW. No one seemed to want to find other folk songs and all the groups started doing more copyrightable originals - untill the coffeehouses wereall filled with singer-songwriters waiting their turn - and no audience,
Darlin' Corey was a folk-era standard, and all the 100s odf folk groups took the arrangement from The Weavers. Pete Seeger was playing the song solo in D tuning for a couple decades by then but in the early 50s he re-arranged it four 4 voices in G. I don't know if the bluegrass scene got the arrangement from him or if it was simply parallel evolution - but I'm not a big believer in parallel evolution.
It in can't be shown to be a pre-1950s bluegrass recording I say it was Seeger. I know Darlin Corey didn't come from a 40s recording by Monroe or the Stanleys. So if no one knows of a pre 1956 bluegrass version. it is definately Seeger. I sthink the Weavers did it earlier, but only have proof they did it at their 1956 Carnegie Hall concert.
robbif - Posted - 02/19/2011: 18:47:04
I want to also mention Ian & Sylvia. I didn't realize it until well after the folk era, but the flatpicking on their songs had a great influence on me before I heard Doc. I remember songs with John Herald (of the Greenbriar Boys and author of "Stewball") and his wonderful backup guitar.
And talk about a great group...the Greenbriars, especially for me their "Ragged but Right" album. Talk about great musicians and fun! They were way beyond "folkies" in my humble opinion.
mike gregory - Posted - 02/19/2011: 18:56:42
I still have Judy Henske's "High Flying Bird" album.
She's originally from around here- Chippewa Falls, Wisconsin.
Edited by - mike gregory on 02/19/2011 18:59:04
UncleClawhammer - Posted - 02/19/2011: 20:01:08
Dude's not even trying to pretend for the first part of the song.
BrianBanjos - Posted - 02/20/2011: 03:50:28
quote:
Originally posted by Pig_Eyed_Jacksonquote:
In defense of The Brothers Four, they were real musicians. They were in that mold of hokey commercial folk groups which doesn't hold up well over time but there was good musianship. You will find lots of lip syncing on old TV shows. Did Flatt and Scruggs play live on the Beverly Hillbillys? I was watching some old video of a variety of old country stars recently, Pre outlaw Waylon, Del Reeves, and so fourth...all one guy faking along to his record on TV.
At least it was Flatt & Scruggs playing and not another banjo player filling in for Scruggs. Play it your self, if you can't, don't make believe you can.
BrianBanjos - Posted - 02/20/2011: 03:50:29
quote:
Originally posted by Pig_Eyed_Jacksonquote:
In defense of The Brothers Four, they were real musicians. They were in that mold of hokey commercial folk groups which doesn't hold up well over time but there was good musianship. You will find lots of lip syncing on old TV shows. Did Flatt and Scruggs play live on the Beverly Hillbillys? I was watching some old video of a variety of old country stars recently, Pre outlaw Waylon, Del Reeves, and so fourth...all one guy faking along to his record on TV.
At least it was Flatt & Scruggs playing and not another banjo player filling in for Scruggs. Play it your self, if you can't, don't make believe you can.
stanger - Posted - 02/20/2011: 04:38:28
The banjo track sounded like Eric Weisburg.
Eric was the go-to guy for bluegrass banjo all through the folk boom, and was a member of the Tarriers, a group that never sold as big as the Brothers Four, but was more authentic sounding and less slick.
Eric played the banjo in another obscure movie that featured the instrument- Deliverance.
The Brothers Four were best known for their ballads and commercially written love songs, which eventually took over most of the repertoire. They were a pretty big deal back then- their biggest hit was Green Fields.
regards,
stanger
Basic Strum - Posted - 02/20/2011: 05:06:14
Looping back to the topic of this thread, Dave Guard of the Kingston Trio was a huge Earl Scruggs fan and became a fine three-finger banjoist. The Trio's recording of "Razors in the Air," on which Guard made fine use of the cam tuners he added to his long-neck Vega, is one of several Guard Trio tracks that actually did help introduce a good many people to bluegrass banjo. A historical footnote: when the audience at the 1959 Newport Folk Festival insisted that the Trio remain onstage at the end of their set, Guard told them that he personally couldn't wait to get offstage so he could watch the closing act of the festival, his personal idol, Earl Scruggs.
John Stewart was also a fine bluegrass-style banjo player as well as an accomplished frailer. I recall one Trio concert in which he substituted a flawless rendition of the Beverly Hillbillies Theme for the normal banjo break in MTA. The Bros Four never approached the level of the Trio's musicianship in the 1960s. Bill
palmettopicker - Posted - 02/20/2011: 06:13:31
And the Trio understood the meaning of the song. That Brother Four's guitar player's cheesy smile all through Darlin' Corey is just too much. It's not a happy, peppy song. Trio did the same song with meaning as I recall.
coelhoe - Posted - 02/20/2011: 08:50:14
If it was a New York recording session, then the banjo has to be Eric Weissberg. He not only played with The Terriers, but also co-wrote "The Banana Boat" Song. As multi-instrumentalist, along with being a Music and Art HS and Julliard grad, he played on many of the folky recordings done in New York. I had chance to visit with him in the fall of '65 and we talked about the work he did on Cisco Houston's Folkway album, which he said was the work he was most proud of to that time.
But there were earlier tv presentations of banjo playing with the Chad MItchell Trio in the fall of '61. I remember their "Whup Jamboree" with some Seeger style playing at a terrific velocity.
wwatson - Posted - 02/20/2011: 09:32:30
The TV series "Hootenany" aired a number of groups that used "house" musicians to round-out the instrumental section. Perhaps someone here knows the name of the Scruggs style player that was occasionally shown sitting in a chair nearby and playing awesome banjo. I remember he was rather rotund and might of had a short beard? en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hootenanny_(US_TV_series)?wasRedirected=true
Bill
The Old Timer - Posted - 02/20/2011: 09:40:35
Well, I was alive back then and all "eat up" for the 5 string banjo (bluegrass style). My dad and mom regularly checked the record racks in the music, appliance and furniture stores (that's where we bought records then), and EVERY LP with 5 string banjo had it printed on the cover "with 5 string banjo!". The folkies, God bless 'em, did wonders for bluegrass music.
You can find old Stanley Brothers King/Starday LPs that used this marketing. There were endless "compilation" LPs too, with about the only thing in common that every song had (or was supposed to have) "5 string banjo!". I remember Dad bought a lot of those LPs and we were totally disgusted at some of the awful stuff that was on them. That phrase on the album cover would "sell" though!
This is how we found the infamous anonymous Sonny Osborne LP compilations of banjo instrumentals (Hank Hill & Stanley Alpine, I think), and Bill Emerson's similar collections. Back then we were DYING to hear more banjo picking. Didn't take us long to learn to ignore the "folkie" records and get to the hard core stuff! Early Country Gentlemen LPs used that marketing phrase on the cover too, I think.
I firmly believe it was really those tv folk/hootenanny shows, cheesy though some of them were, that put the 5 string banjo over the top. Radio and concerts got the ball rolling, but when it hit tv, we knew it had really arrived.
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 02/20/2011: 10:21:15
Mike
You can replace that vinyl with a cd now - I did about 6 years ago. Her 1st album is also available. The 3rd Or 4th JH album "The Death Defying Judy Henske" is available in mp3 format.
She was my favourite of the commercial folk artists- her silent movie vamp hairdo, standing over 6' 3" in heels, and with a voice like a tailgate trombone how could I help but be in love with her?
Edited by - oldwoodchuckb on 02/20/2011 10:22:30
stanger - Posted - 02/20/2011: 10:29:19
quote:
Originally posted by wwatson
The TV series "Hootenany" aired a number of groups that used "house" musicians to round-out the instrumental section. Perhaps someone here knows the name of the Scruggs style player that was occasionally shown sitting in a chair nearby and playing awesome banjo. I remember he was rather rotund and might of had a short beard? en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hootenanny_(US_TV_series)?wasRedirected=true
Bill
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 02/20/2011: 10:31:36
There was no actual problem with hiring musucians in those days. The Four weren't the only group to do it. Ian and Sylvia did not accompany everything with just Ian's guitar, Judy Collins always had back-ups of some sort, Joan Baez and Tom Rush both hired local Boston area folkies to back their albums. It was the way things were done at the time. You didn't NEED to play guitar until about the 3rd Dylan Album - just about the time Dylan started adding musicians to his records - that dude knew hoow to stay ahead of the curve.
The Weavers did do most - if not all - their accompaniment, but not playing an instrument was not a demerit them. No one ever saw most pop singers with a guitar in thier hands - that was those Rock and Roll guys, or those bluegrass guys, or those honky tony guys etc. Pop was about voices and all the pop folk groups were voice oriented. The Kingston Trio were pretty much alone in their ability to do the accompaniment (with a bass player added) - and I gather that the two that went on with the group name weren't particularly thrilled that the third wanted to actually improve his playing.
wwatson - Posted - 02/20/2011: 10:59:45
Stranger, I'm pretty sure it was not Weissburg. The image in my mind is someone who looks Kenny Ingram at the age he is now.
Bill
robbif - Posted - 02/20/2011: 11:31:17
The Kingston Trio was my first influence.
There are a lot of memories at kingstontrio.com
With no offense to any current members,, I care only about Guard, Shane, Reynolds, and Stewart.
I believe the only survivor is Bob Shane kingstontrio.com/content/bob_shane.htm
You can jump directly to the history at kingstontrio.com/content/the_trio1.htm
I even bought a couple of the DVDs several years ago.
When I visited the Martin factory several years ago, I saw this in the museum:
wwatson - Posted - 02/20/2011: 11:53:53
Yes, the Kingston Trio! I still regret to this day that I traded-in my first banjo toward a Pete Seeger Vega. The regret is that I was too lazy to take the head off my trade-in which had the signatures of the original trio and Buck Wheat, the bass player. I got the signatures when they played SMU.
A side note, Dave Guard used scotch tape to hold his finger picks on. Yes, I was that close.
Bill
robbif - Posted - 02/20/2011: 13:44:22
From their website, I see they have a YouTube Channel.
There's a recent video that gives the background with interviews with Bob Shane (which I believe were done a few years ago,
since he looks and sounds in better health that I think he is now).
youtube.com/kingstontrio#p/a/u...tV9yU_gKE
Mike Casey - Posted - 02/20/2011: 15:25:28
The folk groups were the gateway banjo drug for me. I was in highschool during the folk boom and I recall hearing the Kingston Trio on radio and seeing them on the TV shows like Hootenanny. When I dediced I wanted to play a banjo I really didn't know anything about them at all so seeing one on TV was a first for me. I started in 1963 and haven't been able to kick the habit yet. Without the folkies I'd have missed out on all this fun.
mrbook - Posted - 02/20/2011: 15:57:01
My introduction to folk music and the banjo back during the folk scare (discussed elsewhere) of the early 1960s came from TV shows like Hootenanny, and as much from the New Christy Minstrels as the Kingston Trio. Once I started playing, though, I went ot the library and came home with records by Pete Seeger, the New Lost City Ramblers, and others, and my tastes began to change. When I found the Harry Smith Anthology of American Folk Music, it all broke loose for me - the music was great, but not slick and polished, and I thought, "These people made records, and I could probably sound like that." Not as easy as I thought, but I've kept at it more than 45 years.
Basic Strum - Posted - 02/20/2011: 16:09:35
quote:
Originally posted by coelhoe
If it was a New York recording session, then the banjo has to be Eric Weissberg. He not only played with The Terriers, but also co-wrote "The Banana Boat" Song.
robbif - Posted - 02/20/2011: 16:40:13
Trivia: Actor Alan Arkin and Eric Darling (also with the Rooftop Singers of "Walk Right In" fame) were Tarriers.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tarriers
robbif - Posted - 02/20/2011: 16:52:06
If you want to read a fascinating book which includes a lot of the folk era along with some very weird and interesting stories about everyone from Baez to Collins to the Doors and all the other Elektra artists, check out
Follow the Music: The Life and High Times of Elektra Records in the Great Years of American Pop Culture.
It's the story of Elektra's creator Jac Holtzman. I'm not usually much of a reader, but I couldn't put it down!
amazon.com/Follow-Music-Elektr...8-1-spell
I have to thank banjo player and longtime friend Jerry Oland (buddymerriam.com/) for lending me his copy.
sideways - Posted - 02/20/2011: 16:55:43
On the back of the "Foggy Mountain Banjo" album, it describes it as "folk music in overdrive".
The Mighty Ant - Posted - 02/20/2011: 19:48:06
That Darlin Cory isnt exactly how Roscoe Holcomb played it!
coelhoe - Posted - 02/21/2011: 06:05:40
The quote "folk music in overdrive" comes a promo Alan Lomax did for a concert a Carnegie Hall, and was used later on the cover of the Earl Taylor album in the early 60's. I think it came out in 1961. It is one of those sayings that sounds great until you think about it. "Overdrive" was lower rpm cruising gear.
mainejohn - Posted - 02/21/2011: 07:38:35
If it weren't for the Kingston Trio, and to a far lesser extent the Brothers Four, I probably would have never picked up the banjo. In fact I'm coming out....and 'fessin' up to the fact I still like AND listen to the Trio. I recall sitting around the coffee shop in '61 as a freshman at UVM listening to folkie snobs putting down commercial folk music and wondering at the time if it had not been for the likes of Dave Guard et al, would they have ever paid any attention to folk music of any sort? I guess it's a healthy discourse and will no doubt persist until we're all dead.
Jim Yates - Posted - 02/21/2011: 08:42:00
quote:
Originally posted by robbif
Trivia: Actor Alan Arkin and Eric Darling (also with the Rooftop Singers of "Walk Right In" fame) were Tarriers.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tarriers
Ronnie - Posted - 02/21/2011: 08:53:18
Pete Seeger's book "How to play tshe 5 string banjo" introduced a lot of folkies to bluegrass. Mostly devoted to other banjo styles, but with a short chapter on bluegrass. Many, including myself, learned FMB from the tab in that book.
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