banjerman - Posted - 02/12/2011:  16:42:04

I see a lot of discussions and confusion as to how to break away from only playing tabbed banjo breaks. This especially from longtime tab addicts and newcomers to banjo. I think my own experience can shed a pin hole of light on this subject. I have played for 5 and a half years now. I thought tab was "the " answer" to learning how to play a BG banjo with others. It isnt! What tab can do however is make you aware of licks that you will use time after time after time in all kinds of songs. There are a LOT of great licks. A lick is a musical phrase that perfectly fits into a measure of time. BG time to be exact. THATS HUGE! Thats why they exist at all..they fit in a measure of musical time. Now..if you were to see/hear a song in notation or in tab you will hear where the melody note is in the measure,. In my experience a lot of them are in the first and third beat of a 4 beat measure. I mean a lot of them. Well ..that means that a lot of your melody notes are gonna be on the 1st and 4th note of an 8 note measure. They just are on a majority of BG songs. It helps makes the BG sound the way it does.
That still doesnt help you to break away from tab does it. No..but it does help you get a foothold on the concept of the way the song is structured. Thats HUGE again. If you can hear it ..you can copy it. To break away from strictly tab playing you have to "hear " the song in a different way than you probably used to. All the clues are in the song structure. The melody notes and where those melody notes fall within a chord shape are your answer to breaking the tab habit. It is called playing by ear...a terrible choice of words IMO. As you learn where the melody notes are within a given chord shape you have narrowed the field down considerably in learning to play without the visual aid of a tabbed or notated song. If you know the song well enough you can go to lets say 3 different chord shapes of the same chord and find a melody note in each one...most of the time as a caveat. IF you do this enough and practice a lot you will find yourself finding them and playing them WITHOUT THINKING about it. Thats becasue your brain and fingers have formed an unconscious pattern of learning from doing. Like riding a bike is a good example we all can relate to. You dont actually think about how to ride. NOPE..you already did that and your brain knows what to do. ITs absolutely magical IMO. I mean thats cool stuff. Its no different with the banjo and learning to pick ALONG with a song. You can do this but your gonna fall off that bike a lot. Dont be dismayed..its a lot harder than bike riding.
So...listen to a slow song 10 times before you play it. Then try and duplicate what the melody sounds like one note at a time. The fill in between notes HAS to fit in the musical time alotted and that is yet another skill to learn. I doubt you can do it without practicing it for quite a while. Especially the first couple of songs. NOW for the pay-off. Ready? The next song will almost certainly have a very similar if not identical lick that you already learned. Whip that sucker out and lay it in there if it fits. You didnt learn it from tab but I bet you your lick is already in tab and in many places. Thats becasue theres only so many licks and so many ways a lick can be played.

Now..get er dunn!
Wally

aletheia - Posted - 02/12/2011:  18:56:32

I don't think I have ever seen it broken down that nicely, Wally. I am inspired...

dgill - Posted - 02/12/2011:  19:28:03

Really nice post Wally. I have read this a few times and have taken a little something different away with me each time. Thanks for yor contribution here.

banjerman - Posted - 02/12/2011:  19:31:30

[quote]Originally posted by aletheia

I don't think I have ever seen it broken down that nicely, Wally. I am inspired...

Well its good news right? It isnt that tab is addictive or a horrible crutch as it makes us lazy. Lazy because we dont know what else there is! This can be done and its fun if you know the payoff before you commit.
Wally

aletheia - Posted - 02/12/2011:  19:55:14

What I like here is that you emphasize the need to find melody notes IN RHYTHM. IS that what you mean by phraseology? If I recall, Wally, when I started learning to ride a bike, I pedaled to a rhythm. I just remembered that now-- geez.

Last night, I was using a slowdowner program for a Buck Trent lick (no tab available). I listened and listened and listened... hmmm... I though I had it... then after 20-30 listens I FELT it ... and *bang* my fingers found it. How simple the lick suddenly seemed.

Edited by - aletheia on 02/12/2011 19:57:28

Just Bill - Posted - 02/12/2011:  20:23:38

Well said, Wally! Very well said!

banjerman - Posted - 02/13/2011:  10:38:15

[quote]Originally posted by aletheia

What I like here is that you emphasize the need to find melody notes IN RHYTHM. IS that what you mean by phraseology? If I recall, Wally, when I started learning to ride a bike, I pedaled to a rhythm. I just remembered that now-- geez.

Last night, I was using a slowdowner program for a Buck Trent lick (no tab available). I listened and listened and listened... hmmm... I though I had it... then after 20-30 listens I FELT it ... and *bang* my fingers found it. How simple the lick suddenly seemed.

Phraseology is the use of musical phrases for my purpose. It is commonly called a lick. But I like thinking of them as phrases because they are tied to amounts of time in music. An 8 note roll fits in one measure as 1/8 notes. It matters not where you note those 8 notes on the fretboard. They will always fit. A melody note can be anywhere in those 8 notes in any measure. SO ..it follows mathematically that if you use a 1/4 note that they are worth two1/8 notes. So if you use a 1/4 note you have 6 more 1/8 notes or any combination therein to make a measure. BUT this is only academic . This WILL not help you to play the banjo even if you know it. You still cant ride the bike even though you know all there is to know academically about it. The trick is to train yourself by practicing the math practically. Use the math to build something. In this case a lick. Then a whole song. If it sounds right..you got the math right. But the success of this is NOT dependent on knowing the math academically. Its playing and listening to the music that makes it happen. Im sure as I sit here that there are people who can teach someone to play a violin academically. BUT cant play it worth a hoot. Same with banjo..Has to be learned by doing and failing..then doing and succeeding.
Wally

1moretime - Posted - 02/14/2011:  09:56:38

I would have been skeptical if I hadn't recently experienced the severe limitations of "tab only" learning. I have been playing for 18 months after a 20 year hiatus. I went to an open jam BG night at a local BBQ joint and learned the shortcomings of tab almost immediately. The next day I put away the tabs, picked out 3 favorite 'new' songs and began applying my tab knowledge to improvisation. I was actually surprised at how many licks I knew and stringing them together with melody notes is a real kick. I'm going back to the open jam, and this time when asked to take a lead, even though it may not be earth shattering fantastic, it will be in the right key, it will be melodious and it will be recognizable to those in the group. Tabs definitely served their purpose for me, but I will no longer depend on them 100% for learning a song. Your post is right on !!!

banjerman - Posted - 02/14/2011:  10:13:55

[quote]Originally posted by 1moretime

I would have been skeptical if I hadn't recently experienced the severe limitations of "tab only" learning. I have been playing for 18 months after a 20 year hiatus. I went to an open jam BG night at a local BBQ joint and learned the shortcomings of tab almost immediately. The next day I put away the tabs, picked out 3 favorite 'new' songs and began applying my tab knowledge to improvisation. I was actually surprised at how many licks I knew and stringing them together with melody notes is a real kick. I'm going back to the open jam, and this time when asked to take a lead, even though it may not be earth shattering fantastic, it will be in the right key, it will be melodious and it will be recognizable to those in the group. Tabs definitely served their purpose for me, but I will no longer depend on them 100% for learning a song. Your post is right on !!!

Your situation is exactly the same one I found myself in. Its truly amazing how the musical brain can take over if its exercised enough. I had a few lessons with John Boulding who is a friend of mine also. The revelation I got from him that adds to this thread is that Earl's licks were heavily based in partial chord shapes. Partials of the D,F and Barre shape. That made learning the neck for chord positions all the more important. I will sometimes run all up and down the neck calling out the major chords as I go. Now the trick is to remember to use them in a song and not continue to fall back on the same old phrases. Glad it came to you too Kyle.
Wally

blindsniper - Posted - 02/15/2011:  18:31:12

Great post. It all makes sense to me now, this who anti-tab move. I must say however I think tab is a great tool to explain something. It is easier to read than standard notation.

pcfive - Posted - 02/16/2011:  16:46:51

I like the post. I have been trying to improve my ability to make up arrangements that actually sound like bg. I can make up an arrangement easily enough, but very often it sounds like something other than bg. But I know I will get it eventually, by listening carefully and also by reading tabs. I avoided tabs like the plague for a couple of years, to break the habit, but now I think it's safe to go back.

I need to memorize more of the basic licks, and internalize the knowledge of where to put which one. The phraseology is really all important. Just like with singing. You can hit the right notes at the right time, and it can sound very lame, if the phraseology is wrong.

banjerman - Posted - 02/17/2011:  15:19:49

Hearing the licks that you were playing in tab is also a biggy. They are used over and over by many Scruggs type players..even Reno style players and Melodic players. They are musical phrases that fit in the time signature. They fit perfectly in different musical time frames. If the melody is number one in importance then fill in notes have to be timed right AND do not conflict sound wise with the melody note. In other words.. no clunker notes. It just so happens that a note within the chord shape you are in for the melody note..contains no clunkers. The fifth string can be a bad clunker however in certain chords.
Let me give an example here. FMB lick is a good one. That lick sans the hammer on can be used in a barre chord or partial bar chord shape with great results. 12125125 is the FMB lick with no hammer. Thats itittmit.That sucker can go ALL over the board and sounds good for a driving back up. The next great back up lick is the forward reverse roll. 32151232. You should be able to hear these rolls in a nano second if listening for another banjo players lick. If you listen to them enough you can pick up a lick by musical brain memory and try the lick yourself. The brain can pick these up after listening to say 1000 reps. If you know what the lick is you dont need tab to play it see. AND then you will use your personal basket full of licks to make a good try at a break. The ONLY thing that changes is the melody notes.... period in most BG songs. THE LICKS stay the same in most.
Now go listen to Dillard. What is that lick..I never heard that lick. It aint in my basket. Thats cause Earl rarely used it. Dillard plays 12151232 or variations of that imitmim. VERY cool lick but hard to do in the beginning. Its hard becasue its a different lick than what you have ever played before and the brain doesnt know it yet. See Banjo in the Holler by Dillard second breal on this technique. Keep it up and listen hard along with repetition and it will sink in. The thick bony plate in my head makes it come real slow. And thats OK .At least it comes eventually

Edited by - banjerman on 02/17/2011 15:24:08

Hotrodtruck - Posted - 02/18/2011:  10:32:10

Many people use tab incorrectly. It is not the way to become an accomplished banjo player. Learning from tab is like learning to talk. You learn the vocabulary, grammer, etc. from others who have defined these things and published them in learning material, and from teachers. Once you have learned these things, you will not be an accomplished speaker. That takes experience, imagination and learning how to use these thing in your own way. Tab is the same. Learn the basics, licks, ways to use your fingers and hands, and other parts of playing. At some point you should begin to use what you have learned in your own way.

Tab is not something that should hold you back. It is an excellent reference for learning new things and to see how others approach a tune. Learning should be an ongoing process for your entire picking life. Take what you can learn from others and use what you like.

Some people are happy to learn some tunes from tab and be able to play them that way. There is nothing wrong with that. It is thier choice. It is like the difference between reciting poetry and writing it. Different strokes for different folks.

YMMV
Mike

kb2dhg - Posted - 02/18/2011:  12:03:58

WOW thanks for this great post.

Well, I just started out and right now just practicing excersizes, Roll, Fret work etc. Not even trying to learn music yet. What I am doing is first training my hands and brain (if this is at all possable) to work together... I am using tabs but this post has brought some light in to my thinking and I have to agree... Well, from I can see I have a very long road ahead... BUT I am loving every minute of it... Thanks!

john leary - Posted - 02/19/2011:  04:55:07

Great post Wally. What you've said puts things in perspective.
I could expand what I mean, but you've already said it.
Keep giving us your words of wisdom Wally, good on yer.

banjowannabe - Posted - 02/19/2011:  13:35:21

I know in my case, I thought you had to use tabs. I had learned classic piano, and you do things the "right" way. It wasn't until I started to try and "play by ear" that I found out tab is boring, and there isn't a "right" way to play banjo, especially in an impromptu jam. Now it's way more fun to improvise, but that also has limitations, because I need to learn more licks and combinations...so I really should study tab for a while. I probably won't right now, because I'm too lazy and those inside/outside rolls take too much concentration. But one day, I'll get tired of my playing and get motivated to "work" at having "fun."

Oalbrets - Posted - 02/26/2011:  20:20:14

I have been doing this Wally for the last month and I am having a ball. You and I have discussed this before and it is very hard to explain, and you did a mighty fine job explaining it Wally. Since I have been playing by ear I have learned four songs and I have only been playing by ear for three weeks. Great job Wally...Oscar

BanjoDuster - Posted - 02/28/2011:  14:17:34

Wally,

You’ve made noteworthy and good-sense observations. I, for one, have started creating up-the neck breaks to songs, while working out of “commonly used” partial chord positions.

I’ve been told and have read (similar to what you’ve said already above) that melody notes are found within or just outside chords. Moreover, I’ve read where I can create a break around a group of chords in the same relative location, or can venture elsewhere to get a similar result.

Presently, I’m using the “grouping of chords” (my words) approach. That is a relatively easy way for me to work up a break, depending on the song/tune. My question to you and others is, is that approach commonly used, accepted? I plan to try creating similar breaks by using applicable chords “spread out” on the fingerboard. This is my goal here: to become confident, and ultimately, capable, in creating breaks, when and where I want on the fingerboard.

Ted

Edited by - BanjoDuster on 02/28/2011 14:18:06

minstrelmike - Posted - 02/28/2011:  15:12:33

For banjoduster, working out of chord groupings is perfect for 3-finger-picking.

Once you can work out of the 3 possible starting places, barre, f-shape or d-shape, then the next thing to focus on is moving between the shapes, going from d-shape G 9789 to barre-G 12th fret or f-shape G 5435. You'll quickly see there are only so many options (and they are the same regardless of key again).

The other thing to do is break down the chord shapes by note and be able to modify the shapes into the related minor (f to d-minor, d to b-minor) and into dominant (regular) 7th and major sevenths. Instead of learning a bunch of new random chords, you take the stuff you already know and build on it.

garman - Posted - 02/28/2011:  15:28:30

Nice breakdown Wally.