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Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/199084
Beardog - Posted - 02/09/2011: 06:17:42
I recently had Chris Cioffi rework an old Aria Pro II banjo for me. It is a 1970's chrome plated maple banjo, with chrome plated hardware. He did a fantastic job. I picked it up from Chris last Thursday evening and played this banjo at SPBGMA ( I didn't even bring another banjo with me). Not only did it stand up and dance with EVERY banjo there, it turned many heads, and prompted several "WHAT KIND OF BANO IS THAT??" questions. People were continuosly peeking their head around to get a look at my headstock. I kept my clip on tuner and G7 capo on the headstock covering the logo as much as possible, just top make 'em wonder, or work hard to figure it out!
Old import banjos from the 1970's (excluding Gold Stars) often get bad reviews here on BHO, and several times, I have seen posters recommend against new players purchasing Aria Pro II's and other Japanese clones of the same era. I am here to say that if you are willing to pick one of these banjos up for next to nothing in today's market (or if you have one laying around unused), it is well worth having refurbished and turned into a professional quaility player. I have roughly a thousand bucks in this banjo, and I am proud to play it anywhere, anytime, in any company!
I made a video last night. This banjo has been assembled for about a week, and still has a lot of settling in to go through.
I would love to make this an official "I love my red-headed step child banjo that blows snobby banjos out of the water" thread"!
banjohangout.org/myhangout/vid...=&id=7215
Banjov1 - Posted - 02/09/2011: 06:40:15
You're right Beardog, that banjo sounded great!! Hard to believe that's a multi-ply rim.
I've got an old 70s Aria. It was my first banjo given to me as an Xmas gift. It's very cheap with a multi-ply rim, a tone hoop instead of ring and only 1 coordinator rod, but it's got a great neck and it's super easy to play. It was a wonderful first banjo and I often lend it out to others who express interest in learning.
I've often toyed with the idea of putting a decent rim and ring on this banjo, but with the single coordinator rod, I think I'll leave it as is.
But I do reccomend 60s/70s era second hand Japanese banjos to friends who want to start out with something cheap on their own.
T
Ks_5-picker - Posted - 02/09/2011: 06:50:07
I see you've got quite a few botique banjos there. Is this Aria seriously on the same level as any of those? I had to check my calender to see if it was April 1. ![]()
SaggyBottom - Posted - 02/09/2011: 06:59:02
Where is Chris located?
Jack
Ibanez late 70's "Hunter" 5 string
Beardog - Posted - 02/09/2011: 07:01:02
quote:
Originally posted by Ks_5-picker
I see you've got quite a few botique banjos there. Is this Aria seriously on the same level as any of those? I had to check my calender to see if it was April 1.
Beardog - Posted - 02/09/2011: 07:02:02
quote:
Originally posted by SaggyBottom
Where is Chris located?
Jack
Ibanez late 70's "Hunter" 5 string
Poco50 - Posted - 02/09/2011: 07:22:35
I have an Aria Pro II also and i think it sounds pretty good, with the way things are now days i cant justify spendin 2500 on another banjo. (besides i dont want any knots on my head from the big boss...lol) I would like to put a new neck on it, i had it stored away for about 16 yrs after i had tried to learn before and when i opended the case the neck was snapped off right abover the nut, i put it together with yellow glue and its held of 15 months now. In a little while im goin to put a new neck on it and get it set up properly so it plays better, new tuners and all..
Gary![]()
asmcsgac - Posted - 02/09/2011: 07:30:35
My Iida in the classifieds does the trick as well. Don't discount the 70's Japanese clones. They often surprise.
yumagah - Posted - 02/09/2011: 07:58:17
The old Iida's have a good reputation. I have seen ones similar to the Model 230 I sold, selling for over $300 on web markets. I personally think that's too much for an aluminum rim like the 230, but the Iida masterclones are supposed to be very good. Never played one myself tho.
joedibart - Posted - 02/09/2011: 08:11:50
Beardog: I have an Aria banjo that I bought for $50.00 at a yard sale. One coordinator road, bow tie inlays, and a sea horse design on the truss rod cover. Do you know what model this is, and can you give a summary of what you had done to rework this banjo? Thanks!
mike gregory - Posted - 02/09/2011: 08:33:48
I set up a Korean banjo (used, at least 4th hand) for a guy here in Milwaukee, who also owns a Mastertone and a custom-made banjo.
And I have been trying, for almost 20 years, to get him to sell it to me, because it sounds SO good and plays SO well.
And I'm not even a recommended setup luthier!
minstrelmike - Posted - 02/09/2011: 08:45:14
I noticed the bridges on Rovers are shaped differently and wonder if anyone has just taken the bridge off a cheap Rover and tried it on a quality instrument.
catty - Posted - 02/09/2011: 09:20:46
I have three vintage Masterclones. All are very good-sounding banjos that I picked up for just over $200 a pop.
beegee - Posted - 02/09/2011: 09:36:41
I am quick to recommend the old Kasuga, Aria, Ibanez and Alvarez banjos. They are the best-kept secret out there for sleeper banjos.
Ks_5-picker - Posted - 02/09/2011: 12:21:18
I bought an alvarez pot off the classifieds....the plating is not good at all,multiply rim and flathead ring,I put a fender neck on it that somebody had slimmed down a bit too much. I think I have about $200 in this banjo and it sounds amazingly good,even with just my setup. I just put it together so my son would have a banjo in his closet for the grandkids to pick on,but I don't mind playing it one bit.
JIMBO53 - Posted - 02/09/2011: 17:21:28
I believe Ben Eldridge has, and still plays a Tokai. Of course, he could make a warped bottle cap camping banjo sound good.
Beardog - Posted - 02/10/2011: 08:06:31
Hey Poco50, you won't be sorry if you spiff up your Aria.
What got me thinking about redoing my Aria was getting to play an old Alvarez that Chris had in his shop when I was there to pick up one of my Gibsons. It blew me away, so I figured mine might have some hidden potential.....Boy was that an under assessment!
BANJOSANTA - Posted - 02/18/2011: 06:38:05
I own that old Alvarez that Bear Dog is talking about and he is absolutely right about the older import banjos. Mine was bought new, from a music store, in 1971. I always thought it sounded pretty darn good until Chris Cioffi did a complete overhaul and professional set-up. I'm glad someone got to play it who appreciates how good it now sounds. Bear Dog, if your Aria sounds as good as you remember my Alvarez then we both are privileged to own what most people think is impossible, a great sounding import.
Beardog - Posted - 02/23/2011: 19:21:44
Hey Banjosanta, I just saw your post from a few days ago.
I agree, these are wonderful banjos. I have put about 40 hours on the Aria now, and it has really opened up. I am elated with the job that Chris did on it. Trust me, this Aria takes a back seat to NOTHING out there, and coming from someone with a severe, insatiable case of BAS like myself, that is saying something!
O.D. - Posted - 02/23/2011: 19:55:40
Yep
I have a vintage goldstar archtop that I really like a lot,however I stand by the notion that ANY banjo is only as good as the person playing it. With that said, Ill keep picking my crappy Japanese banjo.
Regards, O.D.
fred davis - Posted - 02/23/2011: 21:54:16
There was a guy on last who made bridges from a lot of thing and several times he recorded several Jo and ask us to guess which was which there were only a few of us who guess right I thought that I guess right becoused I was playing an old Imperial and still do I have upgraded but still perfer the imperial it's a lot lighter and I don't worry about it too much I have always thought that some people thought there instrument sounded better becouse of the amount they paid for it The best player I ever heard played and old Vega openback whth finger picks
The Mighty Ant - Posted - 02/24/2011: 13:32:02
I am assuming you put a big heavy tone ring in it? Correct?
fred davis - Posted - 02/24/2011: 17:04:27
No sid MR. Ant it has a white lady tone ring read my Bio to understand thanks
fred davis - Posted - 02/24/2011: 17:21:45
No sir MR. Ant it has a white lady tone ring read my Bio to understand thanks
tubeandplate - Posted - 02/25/2011: 12:32:19
I'm taking a break from working on some necks right now in the shop...and approrpriately, one is an Ibanez Artist basket case neck to be converted to a one piece flange to be used by yours truly...so, somehwhat appropriate to the thread.
I think the point of the thread, as beardog and banjosanta have alluded to is that these stock Japanese Imports from the '70's HAVE POTENTIAL TO BE GREAT BANJOS......
IF worked on and redone by someone such as myself, applying a good deal of "restructruing"....NOT just a tweak or set up.
I'm not tooting my own horn, but NONE of these banjos are worth a hoot to play or even try to set up in their stock configurations.....(other than the 80's Gold Stars).
I also don't think the point here is that they can, in their stock configurations, be tweaked and set up and coaxed to be world class banjos WITHOUT some structural reconfiguring....this is NOT the case.
Even Greg Rich himself says this about the wonderful Recording Kings out of the box...they need a luthier's touch to be great...they are not great out of the box.
The difference is the RK's are built to a much higher design standard than the 70's imports were to start with.
There was quite a lot of work involved in both beardog and banjosanta's banjos that resulted in them BECOMING something each MUCH better than the maker intended, or possibly could have even coneptualized....
In banjosanta's Alvarez, this did mean a new "real" rim...the original was not worth burning in the woodstove.
In beardog's Aria, this did mean a recent Gibson tonering....the original Aria ring was about 10 3/4" OD, but the rim was full 11"...the led to all sorts of undesireable problems phsyically in fit and assembly for a good sonic result.
Both banjos have weird coordinator rods made of cheap metal and tapped to weird threads and lag bolts....with all the holes in the rim and neck in the wrong places with crooked necks...
Both banjos got some neck surgery and new standard 10-32 coordinator rods and lag bolts, either a new rim or the exisiting rim holes plugged and redrilled, and neck lags doweled and neck lowered on the pot to the correct position (in banjosantas case, this invloved a lot of neck surgery and finish touch up-which is not easy as the original finishes on these banjos are poly NOT lacquer), and a neckset for both.
Oh, and a professional fret job and board levelling each...so you wouldn't cut your fingers on the original fretjobs AND so the darn things would actually not note out AND play in tune.
These banjos are more challenging to work on and take more time to do because of their odd constructions....
The point of the thread, I think, is that the work is worth it if you like the banjo and don't compare your result to resale "Kelly Blue Book" value, as they CAN be made to be as good as any new Gibson.....and absolutely shame any Deering at any price.
BUT the work will cost more in the end than the banjo is worth from a resale standpoint....
Beardog's dad bought his Aria for him new in the 70's.
banjosanta bought his Alvarez new in the 70's.
There was some sentimental value not attached to equity involved in both of these banjos and clients, and since I grew up with 2 Aria's that I fondly remember, and both beardog and banjosanta had each commissioned me for various other projects previously (AND I liked both of them....remember the luthier/client relationship is NOT one sided or unilateral, Kmart shoppers), I went over and above for both of these folks and their banjos becuase of our existing relationships AND their going over and above as clients FOR ME in various ways.
I think the point of this thread is that these banjos CAN have the POTENTIAL to be EXCELLENT banjos compared to anything out there, BUT THEY ARE NOT, AND IN FACT ARE FAR FROM, THAT OUT OF OF THE BOX IN STOCK CONFIGURATION.
Were the last phrase not applicable, there would be no reason to have started this thread....which was in fact started because of a STARTLING before and after dichotomy in 2 distinct individual cases...the progenitor of the thread whom had personally experienced both instruments.....and one intimately for over 30 years.
Chris Cioffi
banjohangout.org/topic/152453
Edited by - tubeandplate on 02/25/2011 12:37:28
gary schattl - Posted - 02/25/2011: 14:30:37
In the 70"s I used to hang around a fellow by the name of Ren Ferguson who was THE banjo luthier in california.He reworked an aria pot for me and helped me build a new maple neck for it.Well I ended up selling it to a guy from Japan who had to have it so he could discover what Ren had done to make it sound so good.I remember it sounded just like the banjo I just heard on this thread.I never knew what it was either as I wasn't there when he did the work on it.
tubeandplate - Posted - 02/25/2011: 15:36:18
Hi Gary-
Ren must have had a jar of the that "magic banjo dust" like the jar I have here at my shop...you gotta know how to sprinkle it, too....having a jar of it is only half the battle.....![]()
Chris Cioffi
banjohangout.org/topic/152453
jbalch - Posted - 02/25/2011: 17:54:54
Check out Shad Cobb playing "Carlos."
youtube.com/watch?v=aXkcvU3tntE
The Mighty Ant - Posted - 02/25/2011: 19:14:06
quote:
Originally posted by fred davisNo sid MR. Ant it has a white lady tone ring read my Bio to understand thanks
tubeandplate - Posted - 02/25/2011: 20:36:08
It's....
"Whyte Laydie"
And you're kidding that you don't know what it is, right?
search on BHO here or google....
It's only the most famous tonering design ever conceived other than the flathead Mastertone.
DaddyMan - Posted - 02/28/2011: 16:43:13
quote:
Originally posted by tubeandplate
It's....
"Whyte Laydie"
And you're kidding that you don't know what it is, right?
search on BHO here or google....
It's only the most famous tonering design ever conceived other than the flathead Mastertone.
tubeandplate - Posted - 02/28/2011: 19:31:13
[/quote]
Whyte Laydie tone rings are for plectrum/claw hammer pickers, therefore don't matter to REAL banjo pickers ![]()
[/quote]
Sonny Osborne's signature model Vega had a Whyte Laydie ring in it.....
Just a little Chris Cioffi fun fact......![]()
![]()
Vapor - Posted - 03/01/2011: 05:11:53
This was an interesting read, and I agree that the setup is everything. I have found that same thing. I completely tear my banjos down, and then hand fit everything from the rim up. It really opens up a banjo and makes them incredible. My banjos were very good when I purchased them, and after a complete setup, they play so easy, and IMHO are everything a banjo can be. The best part is I did not break the bank.
Frisco Fred - Posted - 03/01/2011: 06:36:18
quote:
Originally posted by DaddyManquote:
Originally posted by tubeandplate
It's....
"Whyte Laydie"
And you're kidding that you don't know what it is, right?
search on BHO here or google....
It's only the most famous tonering design ever conceived other than the flathead Mastertone.
Whyte Laydie tone rings are for plectrum/claw hammer pickers, therefore don't matter to REAL banjo pickers
My 1981 Leo turned out quite nice. It took a bit of money and a lot of work, but I love the tone that it ended up having. As has been mentioned tho', I barely broke even when I had to sell her. Peace!
benjo75 - Posted - 03/01/2011: 09:53:18
I was with Beardog when he picked up his Aria from Chris' shop. It is everything he says it is. It just keeps getting better too. If someone who owns several multi thousand dollar banjos, plays this Aria 95% of the time and takes it to almost every jam, that says it all.
I was lucky enough to have Chris Cioffi re-work my RB4. I could not be happier. I thought it was as good as it gets, but I was wrong. After I got it back, I was amazed. I ever expected it to be anything like it is now.
If anyone is thinking abut getting some banjo work done, give Chris (aka tubeandplate) a call. You won't be disappointed. He does excellent work.
And don't show up at a jam with beardog and expect to have the best sounding banjo there.
Klondike Waldo - Posted - 03/01/2011: 11:31:05
quote:
Originally posted by tubeandplate
DaddyMan - Posted - 03/01/2011: 13:02:28
quote:
Originally posted by Klondike Waldoquote:
Originally posted by tubeandplate
Whyte Laydie tone rings are for plectrum/claw hammer pickers, therefore don't matter to REAL banjo pickers
Klondike Waldo - Posted - 03/01/2011: 14:50:55
quote:
Originally posted by DaddyManquote:
Originally posted by Klondike Waldoquote:
Originally posted by tubeandplate
Whyte Laydie tone rings are for plectrum/claw hammer pickers, therefore don't matter to REAL banjo pickers
Sonny Osborne's signature model Vega had a Whyte Laydie ring in it.....
Just a little Chris Cioffi fun fact......
Tim13 - Posted - 03/01/2011: 15:11:31
Nice little sleeper banjo. I'd have a hard time prying the better part of a thousand dollar bill out of my wallet to do that to an inexpensive banjo, but I can understand if it has sentimental value.
A lot of people want a more forceful, deeper 4th string in a banjo, and this one doesn't seem to have it. Maybe that's a product of the recording? Anyhow, that's not a slam against this banjo. I prefer a more balanced sound to a banjo, that's what I hear in your video clip. I think it sounds nice, especially considering it's roots.
Tim
opotable - Posted - 03/01/2011: 15:47:21
this is one way to get a pretty well set up crappy japanese banjo sounding even better.
drink me.![]()
tubeandplate - Posted - 03/02/2011: 08:08:53
quote:
Originally posted by DaddyManquote:
Originally posted by Klondike Waldoquote:
Originally posted by tubeandplate
Whyte Laydie tone rings are for plectrum/claw hammer pickers, therefore don't matter to REAL banjo pickers
Sonny Osborne's signature model Vega had a Whyte Laydie ring in it.....
Just a little Chris Cioffi fun fact......
Edited by - tubeandplate on 03/02/2011 08:09:31
tubeandplate - Posted - 03/02/2011: 08:15:41
quote:
Originally posted by Tim13
Nice little sleeper banjo. I'd have a hard time prying the better part of a thousand dollar bill out of my wallet to do that to an inexpensive banjo, but I can understand if it has sentimental value.
A lot of people want a more forceful, deeper 4th string in a banjo, and this one doesn't seem to have it. Maybe that's a product of the recording? Anyhow, that's not a slam against this banjo. I prefer a more balanced sound to a banjo, that's what I hear in your video clip. I think it sounds nice, especially considering it's roots.
Tim
tubeandplate - Posted - 03/02/2011: 08:17:58
quote:
Originally posted by benjo75
I was with Beardog when he picked up his Aria from Chris' shop. It is everything he says it is. It just keeps getting better too. If someone who owns several multi thousand dollar banjos, plays this Aria 95% of the time and takes it to almost every jam, that says it all.
I was lucky enough to have Chris Cioffi re-work my RB4. I could not be happier. I thought it was as good as it gets, but I was wrong. After I got it back, I was amazed. I ever expected it to be anything like it is now.
If anyone is thinking abut getting some banjo work done, give Chris (aka tubeandplate) a call. You won't be disappointed. He does excellent work.
And don't show up at a jam with beardog and expect to have the best sounding banjo there.
tubeandplate - Posted - 03/02/2011: 08:19:51
Hey Sam (beardog).........
Art Hatfield didn't care much for the Aria in his suite at SPBGMA, did he.....![]()
![]()
Tell about that experience a bit.....you still got the picture ![]()
![]()
Chris Cioffi
banjohangout.org/topic/152453
Beardog - Posted - 03/02/2011: 11:02:40
quote:
Originally posted by benjo75
And don't show up at a jam with beardog and expect to have the best sounding banjo there.
Edited by - Beardog on 03/02/2011 11:03:35
Beardog - Posted - 03/02/2011: 11:10:23
quote:
Originally posted by tubeandplate
Hey Sam (beardog).........
Art Hatfield didn't care much for the Aria in his suite at SPBGMA, did he.....
Tell about that experience a bit.....you still got the picture
Chris Cioffi
banjohangout.org/topic/152453
DaddyMan - Posted - 03/05/2011: 10:37:49
No offence taken gentlemen. Heck, I've never even been in the same room with a Whyte Laydie. I'm old fashioned and only know that Earl plays a twenty hole flat-top, and Stanley prefers the crisp tone of an arch.
When I built my Leo I knew that I had a decent neck and hardware to start with. I listened to a lot of different bluegrass banjos before deciding on the tone ring that I wanted. I knew I was going to upgrade to a three ply maple rim. I ordered my Tennessee 20 from JDMC and had Clancey Mullins to cut the rim and mate it all together. After it had time to settle, about 6 months, I took it to The Specialist (Kyle Smith) and got the finishing touches took care of. If I could've covered the peghead and had a pro pick her, I believe they'd be hard pressed to know how little I had invested in that banjo. A local picker, who has a fine pre-war conversion, picked my Leo and fell in love. But I understand that it's all subjective.
When all is said and done...I was just tryin' to jab a little at the drop thumb gang :D. Peace!
JoeDownes - Posted - 03/05/2011: 11:35:43
quote:
Originally posted by joedibart
Beardog: I have an Aria banjo that I bought for $50.00 at a yard sale. One coordinator road, bow tie inlays, and a sea horse design on the truss rod cover. Do you know what model this is, and can you give a summary of what you had done to rework this banjo? Thanks!
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