Sultans of Claw - Posted - 12/06/2010:  16:13:56

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I've got a short scale, five-string banjo (Saga Pony) that I'm itching to try with octave mandolin tuning (GDAE) and utilize the fifth string as well for a hybrid, finger-style instrument experiment.

Has anyone else done anything along these lines, and any recommendations for a set of tenor string and fifth string gauge combo?

Compass56 - Posted - 12/06/2010:  17:52:19

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No, I've never wanted to do such a thing myself, but I can't wait to hear the results. Please post some music when you can.

Tony L.

Sultans of Claw - Posted - 12/06/2010:  18:30:23

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Have I somehow mislead myself in thinking that it would be an interesting experiment?

Compass56 - Posted - 12/06/2010:  19:15:05

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Hey, I think it's a very interesting project, and I look forward to hearing the results.

Tony L.

Rob MacKillop - Posted - 12/06/2010:  23:45:42

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It's a banjo, ergo it is interesting!

yellowdog - Posted - 12/07/2010:  08:11:29

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If you plan to play single string style you should be able to restring your five string and play GDAE tuning, but it will be more difficult than playing either a short neck (17-fret) tenor banjo or the standard (19-fret) tenor banjo. - Because the frets will not lie under the fingers as much which will make single string playing more difficult, slow down your playing and the banjo simply won't be as much fun to play.

Playing tenor chords would be more of a challenge because tenor chords require covering strings over five frets in length. Here is a suggested experiment that should tell you whether you can play tenor chords without restring your five string banjo to GDAE: Download some tenor banjo chord diagrams from the web. (But not GDAE mandolin chord diagrams.) They can be diagrams for either CGDA tuned tenor banjos or GDAE (Irish) tuned tenor banjos because the chord diagrams are the same even if they have different chord names. Then using your five string banjo try to finger the major chords that have fingers (black dots on the diagrams) extending over five frets, such as the Form I major chords which have the root note covered by the pinky on the thinnest, highest pitched string, and with the index finger on the lowest string five frets higher. If you can comfortably finger those chords then you should be able to play your five string with GDAE tuning, down one octave from a mandolin. My guess is that you will find it very difficult because of the stretch required to play common chords in fifths tuning.

If you managed these major chords OK then you are ready for the ultimate stretch test: the four string Seventh Form I (root high) A7 chord which has the root note at the fifth fret in GDAE tuning. This is the same chord form as the four string Seventh Form I (root high) D7 chord with the root note at the fifth fret in CGDA tuning. If you passed both tests you should celebrate by buying yourself a real tenor banjo. (Since you will already have the tenor banjo chord diagrams and will have successfully completed the first practice!)

(Oops! After writing all of this I noticed that I overlooked the fact that your five string banjo was a short scale one. But I decided not to delete my reply because some with a regular scale five string might find it useful. Your short scale "Pony" five string should work fine with GDAE tuning.)

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Edited by - yellowdog on 12/07/2010 08:15:49

Compass56 - Posted - 12/07/2010:  08:41:15

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Yellowdog, as usual, you're teaching me a lot of stuff here.

Sultans of Claw - Posted - 12/07/2010:  10:13:48

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Thanks for the thoughtful response, Frank. I would like to get a real tenor someday, it's just that there are other priorities in line.

I've been thinking about this ever since I started playing my mandolin fingerstyle at work so as not to bother anyone. But I'm never going to get any volume out of the mando that way, so the short-scale five string seemed like a project that might prove interesting with the lowered GDAE tuning.

tomberghan - Posted - 12/08/2010:  03:54:30

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Hi Lee,
Not sure I understand exactly what you want to do, but I'll give it a shot.

Your pony banjo probably has a scale of about 20 inches? And you want to tune it GDAE one octave below mandolin/violin right?

That scale is too short (my opinion) to get a good tone with steel core core strings tuned to that (low) pitch. Yet I have a 4 string banjo 19.75 inches tuned such and it sounds good I think (listen to the audio samples).

The trick is that I used stranded nylon core strings (synthetic "silk") wound with nickel silver wire (classical guitar strings).

You have to buy the strings as singles . . . no one sells a set that will work (in my opinion)

Here is where you can order:
store.daddario.com/category/15...d_Singles

For the E string (1st string) I use a plain steel 0.013" diameter. 0.012 would work as well.

Here are the gauges I am using:
1) 0.013 plain steel
2) 0.025 silk and silver wound
3) 0.035 silk and silver wound
4) 0.045 silk and silver wound

This is what they sound like:
(Note: I play Old Time . . . most of our friends on this forum play Jazz . . . so, some may think this is "Hillbilly" music . . . but get past that and listen to the tone of the strings.)

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Edited by - tomberghan on 12/08/2010 04:05:07

Sally Ann

Waynesboro

Compass56 - Posted - 12/08/2010:  03:58:45

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Those two recordings are lovely Tom. 'Just beautiful!

Tony L.

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Edited by - Compass56 on 12/08/2010 08:42:57

Sultans of Claw - Posted - 12/08/2010:  04:31:04

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quote:

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Originally posted by tomberghan



That scale is too short (my opinion) to get a good tone with steel core core strings tuned to that (low) pitch. Yet I have a 4 string banjo 19.75 inches tuned such and it sounds good I think (listen to the audio samples).

The trick is that I used stranded nylon core strings (synthetic "silk") wound with nickel silver wire (classical guitar strings).

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Thanks for the specific string information, Tom. Without coming right out and asking, I was wondering about the scale length and steel-core strings and the tone it might produce, but I figured someone would chime in who had done something similar and would let me know before I made the plunge.

Yours sounds lovely and I think I'll give that route a go.

No, I probably won't be playing jazz on this one. I aspire to something much more like your own playing, which is superb, IMHO.

Rob MacKillop - Posted - 12/08/2010:  04:32:35

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Best Sally Ann I've ever heard. Give the boy a ceegar!

Sultans of Claw - Posted - 12/08/2010:  07:00:54

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Which brings up another question, Tom. I'm familiar with the classical method of tying off strings at the saddle. Do you do something similar with your classical wound strings, or are you using the Bowline knot that so many of us use with our No-knot tailpieces?

tomberghan - Posted - 12/08/2010:  07:57:57

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Basically I do this (see link), but a bowline knot might work. But the wound strings are probably too stiff to tie a knot. Just loop under and around like the picture. It works.

google.com/m/search?site=image...ridge#i=8

What type of tailpiece is on your pony?

I have a straight-line on my baritone and a presto on my tenor. A no-knot style is the most difficult because they are so small (not enough surface area to support the "loop around and under" method.

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Edited by - tomberghan on 12/08/2010 08:42:50

Sultans of Claw - Posted - 12/08/2010:  08:57:42

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It's a No-Knot. I'll be changing out the strings on my classical guitar before much longer, so I'll experiment with tying the old strings first.

tomberghan - Posted - 12/08/2010:  09:24:09

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Good plan. I think you are REALLY going to like the silk core strings, so you might eventually want to get another tailpiece. A presto from stew-mac.com is a pretty low cost item I think.

What pitch will you tune the fifth string to? I would suggest "G" for tunes in the key of G, and "A" for the keys of D and A. Those will be your top three keys in GDAE.

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Edited by - tomberghan on 12/08/2010 09:26:18

Sultans of Claw - Posted - 12/08/2010:  09:35:09

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aGDAE was going to be my first try, but thanks for the heads up on gGDAE as well all your other suggestions.

tomberghan - Posted - 12/08/2010:  09:45:47

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I think this experiment is going to result in a very cool banjo. Keep me in the loop please. I might want one myself. I do claw in GDAE but I don't have a fifth string. The short scale with the "fifths tuning" makes for a fast melodic banjo. It's great! So hurry up Lee! I want to know about it.
Best wishes,
Tom