banjobluegrass - Posted - 10/15/2010:  23:15:24

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Hello folks over the Ocean,glad for joining you!
Terry Baucom Deering banjo owners (recommendations of all respectfull experts here are very welcomed as well), you are kindly asked to give your comments, experiences,suggestions and your setup specs. It would be very precious for me,since there is no any banjo repairman here in Croatia and I am totally on my own.
I got mine( #6 ) from Elderly in March this year.
Head is Deering Weather king frosted.Original bridge was Deering 11/16 , causing too high action for me,so I changed it to Beaver 0.656 ; 2,4gr and not compensated ;
D Addario strings,light gauge 9,10,13,20,9; Tail piece (Deering Presto)stays firmly on tension hoopand is positioned a pencil width (1/4") up from the head which is tap tuned somewhere G to G#). Any other, better setup? Highly appreciated!!
Banjo sound is sweet and strong, maybe on a side of being somewhat bassy,mellow ; thought I know this Jo could sound much better ,especially in higher (above 15 fret) registers.
I would still prefer some more lower action (now is arr.1/8 "at 12 fret); but do not want to tweak with coord rods. Thanks in advance and greetings from Zagreb, Croatia, Marin

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Edited by - banjobluegrass on 10/16/2010 02:54:08

tbfnyc - Posted - 10/15/2010:  23:35:18

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Why not try a 5/8" bridge? That is probably the most popular size. It is 1/32" lower than a .656 and that may be enough.

banjobluegrass - Posted - 10/15/2010:  23:50:29

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quote:

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Originally posted by banjobluegrass

Hello folks,
TB Deering banjo owners (recommendations of all the experts here are welcomed as well).Could you please give your experiences,suggestions and setup specs would be very precious for me.
I got mine( #6 ) from Elderly in March this year.
Original bridge was Deering 11/16 , causing too high action for me,so I changed it to Beaver 0.656 ; 2,4g ; D Addario strings,light gauge 9,10,13,20,9; Tail piece positioned a pencil width up from the head ( G to G#).
Banjo sound is sweet and strong ; thought some lack of spark and power in higher registers (above 15 fret)
I would prefer some lower action (now is more then 1/8 "at 12 fret); but not to tweak with coord rods. Thanks in advance and greetings from Croatia, Marin

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Thanking for advice; I already tried with 5/8 ; Dave sent me as well; Buzzing occured at most of the frets; It seems truss rod should be turned very slightly and it would give a hair more neck relief and maybe I should sand a bridge just pilling off a thin layer.

BobbyE - Posted - 10/16/2010:  01:10:24

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Well in my humble, and often wrong opinion, a bridge that weighs in at 2.4 grams is going to produce a 'somewhat bassy mellow tone.' There are other options with a .656 bridge that will certainly give it a bit more sparkle and won't hurt your back picking it up.

Bobby

banjobluegrass - Posted - 10/16/2010:  01:23:55

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Bobby, thnx for answering. However the sound is pretty rich and full with a 4 string growl and Dave s bridge worksfine. I ll try to experiment with some lighter options in order to have alternative and it could certainly make it easier to my back ,as you said. I noticed one of your banjos is Golden Era ; another not so lightweight one.
Marin

lazyarcher - Posted - 10/16/2010:  01:41:31

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Hey Marin..nice to see you here!

If your action is a bit too high with the .656, and the 5/8 was causing buzzing, and the jo origionally came from deering with an 11/16, then the heel cut is likely for an 11/16 bridge...which would cause issues with a 5/8. You may want to try shimming the neck slightly with the .656 bridge. I'd suggest cutting the string slots deeper a bit at a time vs sanding the feet. if you're going to sand the feet, its best done with a sander that has a table to keep the feet at the right angle...if done by hand, be careful to keep things square.
If you want to lighten up the bridge, put the bridge back side down of a sheet of fine grit sandpaper taped to a flat surface sand lightly removing a bit of the mass at a time--remember once its gone, it cant go back. This may brighten the sound a bit.

I'd likely do a couple of other things 1st, including

--remove the tone ring and ensure its a loose fit..ie..it comes off easily when the pot is turned upside down
--tighten the head
--lower the tailpiece to see it it affects the treble response
--try some AMB cryo strings..I use .010-.011-.012-.020-.010

Remember, try not to artificially increase the treble response by killing the bass and midrange...which is what a lot of people end up doing by default.

If you still cant get a good treble response up the neck, let me know and I'll send you a few more Beavers to try.

banjobluegrass - Posted - 10/16/2010:  02:47:32

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Hey Dave,
I expected your involvement; since you know very well how things work on my TBD.As I mentoned ,your Beaver bridge(s) works really fine and I am satisfied
I put 5/8 on my another Jo (Saga-Gibson RB 250 clone 1977 and it pulls out great tone).Thanx so much for your very precise expert proposals; I ll think it over,systematize order of works on the set up you suggest and most importantly listen carefully. I ll let you know on results.
Marin

slammer - Posted - 10/16/2010:  06:21:16

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Hey Marin,
I also own a Deering Terry Baucom that I purchased from a fellow BHO member a few months back. I was told the rim fit was not right and it was fixed by Arthur Hatfield. The only other thing that is not original is the Deering bridge which was specked for Terry Baucom with a wider spacing. I believe it's even wider than Crowe spacing. The bridge that came with it besides the Deering was a Nechville compensated bridge, which surprised me.
Now I live in an area where there are no other banjos or players and the only thing I have to compare it to is my other banjos. A epiphone MB250 and a RK80 that was set up by Greg Rich himself.
My first thoughts on how the TBD sounded and played was Smooth and Creamy with a deep rich mellow tone. But if you honker down on the bridge and ruff it up a bit , she'll crack pretty good.
My second thought was the bridge was too thick causing too much mellow and I wanted a little more of that blue grass sound. Also being partial to the Beaver ( Daves bridges) LOL, I installed a 5/8 non compensated Beaver bridge and started to get more of that "Bluegrassy" sound I was looking for. After about a week I realized I was getting too much twang on 1st and 5th , so I changed strings from lights to med-lights and that helped a lot getting rid of the annoying twang. I recently put the nechville bridge back on and there is a considerable difference. Now it's back to smooth and creamy again and I can't decide which I like better. I'll probably put the Beaver back on again because I like to play with a Mute a lot and the mute doesn't fit real well on the nechville bridge. As I said , I play with a mute a lot as to not disturb my other Beaver , LOL, and the sound of this banjo with a mikes mute on it is to me , just a beautiful mellow harp like sound. It's like having two instruments in one.
I was getting a very minute amount of buzz with the 5/8 bridge and I gave the truss rod a little tweak to give it just a tad more bow and that took care of the buzz, although the action is also a tad higher now, and I think I may have gotten a tad more volume. It might just be in my head though. I still think this banjo has more potential than where it stands right now and I will probably do a complete tear down some day and start from scratch, but I hate taking time away from playing it to tinker.
It plays and sounds quite different from my other banjos and although they all sound good , I keep coming back to the Deering Terry Baucom and just love the feel of it. She aint super loud , but she's got a lot of tone in her. Huge difference in sound as to where ya place that right hand giving it lots of depth. If I discover anything earth shaking I will certainly let you know and by all means let me know if you make any great discoveries with yours.
About the only thing I would like different is more 4th string growl and a tad more volume with a little more decay or less sustain. That's not asking for too much is it?
Sorry to be so Windy , but got excited about another TBD owner. It's not talked about too much. Usually it's the Deering Calico or Golden Era when talking about the higher end Deerings.
Good luck and keep us posted.
Slammer!!!

coelhoe - Posted - 10/16/2010:  07:46:38

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I have a hard time understanding why you would go to all the trouble of getting a musician-specific banjo like the TB with it's unique set up, and then try so hard to change it. Baucom plays with a lot of energy and drive and I'd guess his set-up reflects that. Probably medium strings, 11/16 bridge, and perhaps a unique bridge and string spacing. If you change any of that, well.....it's not a TB any more, not really.(imo)

The other thing, since you are nearly infinitely far from a banjo shop (probably some in Prague), you should learn to adjust the action by changing the angle of the neck to the rim by adjusting the coordinator rods. It takes a very small movement of the rods to make a substantial change in the string hight above the fingerboard.

For me, changing the bridge height will change the sound of the instrument and once you've done that, everything else will pull you further away from the original intent of the maker and the endorser. I may be naive, but I can not believe that a Deering banjo comes from the factory needing anything on the rim tweaked or changed. I don't have much experience with Deerings, though I almost bought a golden Golden Era once from a shop that was going out of business and selling stock at close to wholesale. While I thought about it some else grabbed it. Alas.

You also raise an interesting point about banjo weight and playability. I doubt that most buyers ever ask "how much does this banjo weigh?" But if you play very often from a standing position, weight can become a real factor in fatigue as you get older. I don't know what the TB would weigh but I know that the first Stelling I had in '84 weighed almost 14 1/2 pounds, which is about 6.6 kilos. My new (-er) Stelling from '04 is only 4.8 kilos, big difference in weight not much difference in sound.

Good luck with it! Enjoy!

banjobluegrass - Posted - 10/16/2010:  09:25:34

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To Slammer :
Hey Dale,

I am really glad to hear from you and to receive so much detailed descriptions.
You are TBD #5 owner and I am just a hair behind (#6).
You are right; there is a lack of infos from TBD owners ;just two reviews and it is a blessing and a treasure to get in contact with you enabling us to exchange everything concerning all the aspect of playability,construction ,sound etc. of our instruments of choice.
I use to say that having bluegrass banjo be kept in top condition is like permanent poker game with it. And I agree with you ; the majority of precious free time is spent in tinkering,frustrating , machinery & tools things ,all kinds of measuring etc ,as you know very well. Btw. Just a two few days ago a purchased „Tama Tension watch“ in my local music store. As you may know this device is commonly used by drumers to measure deflection on membranes of drums batterie. Well I consider it very useful and reliable. As you know , banjo pickers in USA mostly use Drum Dial (Neary or similar) .What is interesting,Tama T.W. has the scale in metric units ,while DD has it in inches. However, it works ok.
I get used to it knowing (by BHO members experiences) that for instance G# equals 83 measuring units ( on DD it would be arr.90) . I check it of course by tap tuning as well,and using Intelli tuner ,which works when put on the head. Dale,let me know about your head setting. I know Terry Baucom recommends it to be tuned A ; Well I will try reach it. Have you noticed Dave Jack (Lazyarcher) which sent me Beaver bridges two months ago post a reply to my post today . I am sure you will take into consideration his recommendations as well. Very expert advices, I will follow it and let you know on results,of course.
How about your tail piece position. Nestled directly on the hoop (J.Deering recommends it) or is lifted above some distance?. I will try with lite to med strings as Dave said. Volume increases with an action rise definitely( bridge is the biggest contributor).and I agree with Dennis (Coelhoe) saying TB is a dedicated banjo , designed with speciic parameters for hard drive . Any change will cause totally different results that differ from originaly aimed.But what we could do, then going forward with our tinkering ,but with caution.
As a matter of fact is that the best sound I got from my TBD is when I position my right hand arr.two inches from the bridge. I got sweet and rich sound indeed when there. I do anchor very wel my palm rist and keep the fingers very close to the strings all the time. I use Acri picks and National thumb pick. Well ,one more thing , I use Banjo mate bronze sound enhancer , just like you ! Little ,but noticable difference in sound; it helps no doubt.
Bridge .Dave proposed me to sand it on a back side in order to make it thinner. I ll see.
And an issue related to tone ring and rim joint ,which should be loose. Hmm..as You know A.Hatfield is not my neighbor here in Croatia . Anyhow I am surprised TBD passed Deering quality standards such like that ,and it is an expensiveive Jo.
Keep in touch Dale ; I sent you a private mesasage
Marin

slammer - Posted - 10/16/2010:  09:33:59

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[quote]Originally posted by coelhoe

I have a hard time understanding why you would go to all the trouble of getting a musician-specific banjo like the TB with it's unique set up, and then try so hard to change it.


1. The set up is not all that specific. TB has a wider spaced bridge than others is all.
2. It's not a lot of trouble.
3 Very few people here on the BHO , if any will tell you to use the coordinator rods to adjust neck angle. Rods should be kept neutral.
4 I'm not trying to be or sound like Terry Baucom ( although I'd give my right arm to ) but I rather like a quality banjo and wanted to try a Walnut banjo and this fit the bill.
5 I'm sure Deering and many other manufactuers have sent out banjos that needed some kind of set up and if new probabaly will need some tweaking after settling in .
6. If I bought a Gibson ESS and didn't change a thing on it , would I sound like Earl. I wish. Same goes for the Baucom. Sounds change and so do our tastes in sound and instruments, Just ask Terry Baucom who has endorsed numerous manufacturers banjos. Evidently he wasn't happy with the sound either.
Slammer!!!

banjobluegrass - Posted - 10/16/2010:  09:46:35

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To Coelhoe:

Dennis,
Thanking you for reply ,I am with you concerning TB specific design and original aim ie to be played in hard drive style; designed with higher action,wider space among strings and due to the tonal characteristics combined of violin grade mapple and slighly cut 06 tonering. Due to that any change will definitely obstruct the original composition of sound,playability etc. Fortunately things are reversible.
well , maybe I should have purchased some other model ; I was hesitating between Stelling (found it too loud) and Deering Calico. I know both come with 5/8" bridge and lower action and are much more suitable for all other playing styles.
Sure , I know how to tinker with coo.rods but should it cause distorsion of the rim?If only 1/8 of turn applied it would do no harm I guess,but I will stay away from it seemingly for now.
Considering the weight its arr,5 kilos in addition is Fishman rare earth pickup installed! You are right ; it s an impact to our backs , definitely, but we are in the best years .
All the best
Marin

banjobluegrass - Posted - 10/16/2010:  09:59:17

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To Slammer:

I agree with you Dale and all of your 6 statements.
Why to be restricted and not investigate and search.
Banjo is God given for experimenting ; Main parts are
jointed with nuts and bolts and it
could be dismantled and assembled again, very reversible
and not glued like guitars,violins in one whole

Marin

lazyarcher - Posted - 10/16/2010:  10:44:51

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Marin and dale--thanks for using the Beavers on your Baucoms and for your kind words. The Beavers tend to be on the bright side with a fair ammt of sustain..good for some ears, not so good for others. Its the submerged maple..I think because its so dry. Its also why I make them a bit heavier as some have commented on--2.2-2.5gr is a common weight.

I like co-ord rods at neutral, but saying that, a little bit of tension to make minor action adjustments wont hurt. There was a post a while back about making minor tension adjustments with the rods to adjust the tone of the banjo..and I agree. A little bit of tension on the top rod seems to be beneficial....at least for some setups.

With a banjo with a heel cut for an 11/16" bridge, I'm still wondering about a little neck shim to alter the neck/pot angle. That might bring down the action with an 11/16" bridge, yet still maintain the height on the head at the bridge...hmmmm...

So many variables with setup, esp when as coelhoe said, you wander from the factory setup for that instrument.

coelhoe - Posted - 10/16/2010:  13:06:31

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Marin: My Stelling Sunflower came with an 11/16ths bridge, and the action was perfect (for me anyway).

Slammer: Good point about endorsements. Loyalty is fleeting. Just look at all of the Chet Atkins model guitars out there. If I were a maker, I think I'd skip the endorsement route altogether, though Baldwin and Gretsch gave C and D model Ode banjos to almost everyone who'd made a BG record in the 70's (mine must have got lost in mail). Still Gibson has persisted with endorsed mandolins and I don't know how that has worked since other than the name, and the price, they don't seem much different, other Sam Bush's.

Been around a few good instruments in the last forty years. When I got my first decent banjo, it was in 1962, a new RB-100 with a heavy rim and no resonator. The only information around about maintain the instrument was in Seeger's little book. Trial and error. Had a Framus when I was in Germany in the Army. Practically gave it away. In '70 I bought a '62 RB-250 Bowtie, which I sold later to David Miller (BHO member). Then, in short order, things got more interesting. I had two of the newer RB-250's from the late 60's. Sold one and traded the other for a Fender Artist, that I used for ten years. Sold that for a heavy maple Stelling Bellflower in '84 which I used for 17 years, then went to a beautiful Ome for three years and back to a newer Stelling. In between I had a few frailing banjos as well. Lots more good info around these days about almost all elements of the instrument. I think this Stelling is my last banjo, probably, maybe.........

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Edited by - coelhoe on 10/16/2010 13:19:16

slammer - Posted - 10/16/2010:  13:20:49

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Dennis ,
Yours might have gotten lost in the mail, but I don't think they even bothered to try and send mine.


Dave,
Thanks again, nothing I like better than a dry, bright Beaver that's been submerged !!!