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Stringy D - Posted - 08/21/2010: 14:36:29
I installed a Bill Miller vellum premounted calfskin head on my banjo that has a Stew-Mac rolled brass tone ring. It had an Elite Amber/Remo Renaissance head on it before I put the skin head on it. It's worth noting I play clawhammer style banjo. This same banjo, I have turned into a half-fretless banjo with a brass plate... Anyway, in comparison to the Elite Amber head, the vellum calf skin is louder, warmer, has a little more bass, a little less bright but still very bright. I would not switch the skin back to the Elite Amber head after trying both. I find that the Ben Miller's skin head has very good string clarity, brushing the strings with the Galax lick is amazing. It sounds strong while playing over the head and very plucky while playing over the scoop. It's a stiff head, the bridge does not sag any more than the Elite Amber, I thought it was very easy to install and has not stretched since I have installed it. Currently I have the head tuned to Gb. Really, I have not found anything I don't like about it. All the other heads that I've tried have had something I like about them, but what I like has always been combined with something I don't like about the tone. A regular REMO top frosted seems too bright and has a plastic sound. I've tried the Taiwan version which is very loud and has too much mid range. I think the REMO Fiberskyn sounds muted and sometimes I think the Renaissance head sounds thin and too bright, and I seem to have less volume with this head compared to the other heads. Remember, I do have things I like about the aforementioned heads too, I think they all have there "thing" and I am sure there are banjos out there that favor them, so I am not criticizing anyone who uses them. But in my own experience, on my own banjos, I have always been left wanting something. I think the Ben Miller vellum calfskin is the closest I've come to it.
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tomberghan - Posted - 08/21/2010: 17:49:20
Bill's Skin Banjo-Heads are great! I have one that Bill pre-mounted for me. It sounds terrific. Bill is a member of the BHO. Drop him a note and make sure he sees your post.
deuceswilde - Posted - 08/21/2010: 18:36:39
I'm in total agreement. I have one mounted on my 13" Stewart and my Stewart & Bauer, I find them absolutely top notch. Loud, clear, and crisp. I need to order some more to keep on hand, just in case.
I buy unmounted as the size is almost one size fits all.
Good stuff these heads!
Attached are with my Stewart, equipped.
Edited by - deuceswilde on 08/21/2010 18:37:07
BobTheGambler - Posted - 08/21/2010: 22:02:42
Another vote for the Bill Miller vellum processed. I have one on my 12'' pot with a dobson-style donut tone ring and I love the way it sounds and feels. It gives me the best all around balance and volume out of the heads I've tried on it.
Stringy D - Posted - 08/22/2010: 18:28:03
Today I had an interesting experience with the vellum head. It rained yesterday and night and my head went slightly flat this morning. I tightened the hooks 1/8th turn to get it back to Gb, the sweet spot. The sun came out today and it was less humid. I didn't play the banjo all day because I was out. After I got home, I noticed the banjo head had tightened itself back up to A! This honestly was a true surprise... This is my first real experience with a skin head. I do have, I admit, the naive fear (due to inexperience) that skin heads will keep stretching and stretching to the point of non-usability, only to frustrate one to the point of making a fast run back to plastic. So I had to laugh at myself; because I realized that deep down, I had unknowingly nurtured the belief that a head shrinking, rather than stretching, was not possible!
tomberghan - Posted - 08/22/2010: 18:44:11
Hi Stringy,
If you treat your skin banjo-head with leather water-proofer it will not be as sensitive to humidity changes. And that is what Bill Miller suggests. (Comes in a spray can, or wipe-on) Since you live in Ohio where it is very humid in the Summer, know that it will easier to keep your head humid versus dry. So, try to keep it lightly humid all the time. The time of year when that is a challange is when Winter hits and it gets cold and dry. So, keep a "dampit" in your case and keep your banjo in its case when you are not playing it. Why? Because it is easier to control the humidity in your case versus in the outside world.
dampits.com/how/
My instructions on my homepage
banjohangout.org/myhangout/pho...albumid=0
Edited by - tomberghan on 08/22/2010 18:46:29
mikehalloran - Posted - 08/22/2010: 18:50:56
quote:
Originally posted by Stringy D
Today I had an interesting experience with the vellum head. It rained yesterday and night and my head went slightly flat this morning. I tightened the hooks 1/8th turn to get it back to Gb, the sweet spot. The sun came out today and it was less humid. I didn't play the banjo all day because I was out. After I got home, I noticed the banjo head had tightened itself back up to A! This honestly was a true surprise... This is my first real experience with a skin head. I do have, I admit, the naive fear (due to inexperience) that skin heads will keep stretching and stretching to the point of non-usability, only to frustrate one to the point of making a fast run back to plastic. So I had to laugh at myself; because I realized that deep down, I had unknowingly nurtured the belief that a head shrinking, rather than stretching, was not possible!
I like skin heads better than any other. The problem is not that they stretch and tighten - it is that you can forget that you cinched it up under humid condition and they can break when they tighten up.
This is why banjos have easy to remove resonators and why the top tension was invented.
Stringy D - Posted - 08/22/2010: 19:59:40
quote:
Originally posted by mikehalloran
This is why banjos have easy to remove resonators and why the top tension was invented.
What do you exactly mean by this? Just curious.
Stringy D - Posted - 08/22/2010: 20:07:48
quote:
Originally posted by tomberghan
Hi Stringy,
If you treat your skin banjo-head with leather water-proofer it will not be as sensitive to humidity changes. And that is what Bill Miller suggests. (Comes in a spray can, or wipe-on) Since you live in Ohio where it is very humid in the Summer, know that it will easier to keep your head humid versus dry. So, try to keep it lightly humid all the time. The time of year when that is a challange is when Winter hits and it gets cold and dry. So, keep a "dampit" in your case and keep your banjo in its case when you are not playing it. Why? Because it is easier to control the humidity in your case versus in the outside world.
dampits.com/how/
My instructions on my homepage
banjohangout.org/myhangout/pho...albumid=0
Does the water proofing spray alter the tone or look of the skin at all? Also can you apply it when the head is on the banjo at full tension, or is it better to remove the head from the banjo and start over? Also, do you coat it once and be done with it, or is it best to apply multiple coats? Sorry, for so many questions, I'm sure others are wondering too.
deuceswilde - Posted - 08/22/2010: 20:24:20
Just curious...
"I tightened the hooks 1/8th turn to get it back to Gb, the sweet spot."
Humidity, air pressure, temperature, etc. will constantly affect the tightness of your head. The very moment you "tune" it, it will most likely be affected by one of the many variables previously mentioned.
Best not crank her in damp weather, and if you do, back her off before you put her away.
Next question, and I'm really not trying to be smart cause this is something I have read the bluegrassers endlessly discuss, how does this work exactly?
By this I mean, if you tune the head to a certain pitch -say G#- then when playing in the keys of A or E the head will ring in harmony. But If you were to play in A minor would you need to retune the head? Seems like it would not sound pleasant.
tomberghan - Posted - 08/22/2010: 21:47:29
>>>Does the water proofing spray alter the tone or look of the skin at all?<<<
Nope, not a bit. You would think it might, but it doesn't. All shoe repair shops carry the stuff and probably the larger drugstore chain stores as well. "Leather Water Proofer" There are numerous brands.
>>>Also can you apply it when the head is on the banjo at full tension, or is it better to remove the head from the banjo and start over?<<<
It doesn't matter . . . I would leave the head on and not loosen it . . . and although the spray probably won't hurt the pot, I would play it safe and get some blue painters tape (very low adhesion tape that painters use for masking off surfaces . . . it is dirt cheap and you can get a roll at any hardware store in North America . . . good to have around the house too.
Mask-off the hardware, rim, pot and lower portion of the neck (strings and all) with the blue painters tape. Don't worry, the tape will come right off very easily and it won't leave any residue. Don't mash the tape down, just lightly apply it to what you are masking. Then, hold the can about a foot away and spray evenly. Don't soak it. Practice on a piece of cardboard first. Once you have the knack of spray evenly down, do it outside in still air . . . I sprayed mine out on the patio . . . or, try the garage. Try to not inhale the stuff! But don't worry . . . people spray this on their shoes all the time. It is no big deal.
>>>Also, do you coat it once and be done with it, or is it best to apply multiple coats?<<<
Just one treatment and you're good! Do both sides of the skin. Next time, treat the head before you install the head . . . but no big deal . . . just use the painter's tape, mask-off the banjo and you will be fine.
When you are finished with the banjo head, you can treat the whole familly's shoes! 
For the record, calf skin heads are not delicate . . . they can take as much tension as mylar (maybe more). As for me, I no longer use the even-tension-everywhere method. I use differential tensioning like wooden soundboards use. The simple idea is that the head (the soundboard) should be stiffer in the area from the tail piece, under the bridge . . . and maybe running up under the strings. Then, less tension eveywhere else. Basically tight in the middle and a little looser on the sides. Bottom-line: Fool with it until it sounds good (i.e. experiment). Look at photos of how sound boards are braced. Think about emulating some of these patterns. More tension = stiffer. The wooden braces on a sound board make the top stiffer. Study the patterns. Think about how that will translate to tensioning the banjo head.
sundownsound.com/Bracing_Paterns.JPG
By the way . . . I am not smart enough to have thought of "differential tensioning." Ed Britt is the creative genius!
As you already know. I keep my head appropriately humidified with the "Dampit." And since my banjo head is always appropriately humidified, I keep it nice and tight all the time! And as I fly so much, I dare say there is no one whoose banjo head experiences more humidity changes and more drastic humidity changes than mine . . . and I have no problems! And most folks think my banjo has a pretty nice sound. You can hear it on my BHO homepage.
Good luck!
Best Wishes,
Tom
Stringy D - Posted - 08/23/2010: 06:03:52
Thanks Tom for the info on the waterproofing spray. This helps me a lot. I think I do have a few pair of boots that need it too. Kill a few birds with one stone!
Tackhead - Posted - 08/23/2010: 06:48:01
Another vote for the BM vellum head. I've used the off-white head and find the vellum much more to my liking. Regarding humidity, I've found the vellum head to be remarkably stable, even in Tallahassee's humidity-drenched summers. I get a tiny bit of sag, but it's not worth tightening the head.
As a side note, I followed Bill's directions for tightening and found (as John Balch mentioned in another posting) that the skin is not uniform and consequently doesn't tighten completely evenly or symmetrically.
~John
Edited by - Tackhead on 08/23/2010 06:48:47
raybob - Posted - 08/23/2010: 08:15:51
I've put Bill's vellum calf skins on 3 of my banjos and I still have 2 of them and have no problems. I also love the tone. I have treated all of them with leather/shoe waterproofer, and even though I live in a semi-arid region I think it helps in the rainy season and when I travel. My routine is to first put the head on the banjo and tighten it almost to where I'll want it when it's finished. Then I leave it there for a day so it can take the shape of being formed over the top of the rim. The next day I'll take it off the banjo and give it 2 coats of the waterproofing spray. After it dries completely I'll put it back on the banjo and tighten it up all the way. This works well for me. I decided not to spray the head while it was on the banjo for 2 reasons; 1) Overspray on the banjo, and 2) I was afraid the moisture from the spray might cause the head to stretch before the product had a chance to dry. Your mileage may vary, but this is how I do it. Yes, it means I have to wait a little longer to actually play the banjo, but I like the result. Good luck.
Stringy D - Posted - 08/23/2010: 18:29:52
Thanks every one for your experience and expertise. If anyone is interested, these are some recordings of this banjo with the vellum calfskin head on it. It was recorded using a Sterling ST31 small diaphragm condenser mike and a Presonus tube preamp.
mikehalloran - Posted - 08/24/2010: 10:34:45
quote:
Originally posted by Stringy D
quote:
Originally posted by mikehalloran
This is why banjos have easy to remove resonators and why the top tension was invented.
What do you exactly mean by this? Just curious.
So that one can get to the nuts easily to readjust the head. The easiest way is to not remove the resonator at all - thus the top tension systems of the 1930s.
In the old days, constant tightening and loosening of the banjo head was part of every player's routine. Plastic heads eliminated that as a daily routine.
vernob - Posted - 08/24/2010: 11:07:29
I have not tried a Bill Miller mounted skin head. I'd like to after reading the posts in this topic. I usually stretch my own skin heads and I have noticed a wide variability in them. It stands to reason. Every animal is slightly different and so is their skin. The banjo was invented with skin heads and I think they are the best. From a resonator banjo playing bluegrass to an open back playing old time all the way to minstrel. They are bright AND warm at the same time. Having said that, every one is different. Are Miller's heads consistent? If so, how does he do it? I now live in Florida and the humidity is high. I like Ren heads when I play out anywhere because it is impervious to the humidity and sounds better than Fiberskyn to my ears. It's the only argument for a plastic head that I agree with.
tomberghan - Posted - 08/24/2010: 12:40:50
quote:
Originally posted by Stringy D
Thanks every one for your experience and expertise. If anyone is interested, these are some recordings of this banjo with the vellum calfskin head on it. It was recorded using a Sterling ST31 small diaphragm condenser mike and a Presonus tube preamp.
Sound great Stringy!
Lots of plunk! I just uploaded a new tune,
Lazy John, (Bill Miller Calf Skin Vellum Head) and posted it on the "Sound Off" forum.
So . . . how did you make out with the water-proofing spray? That ought to really help you with the humidity problem. It certainly helps me. It does not make the head impervius to humidity but I really helps.
Stringy D - Posted - 08/24/2010: 15:40:50
quote:
Originally posted by mikehalloran
quote:
Originally posted by Stringy D
quote:
Originally posted by mikehalloran
This is why banjos have easy to remove resonators and why the top tension was invented.
What do you exactly mean by this? Just curious.
So that one can get to the nuts easily to readjust the head. The easiest way is to not remove the resonator at all - thus the top tension systems of the 1930s.
In the old days, constant tightening and loosening of the banjo head was part of every player's routine. Plastic heads eliminated that as a daily routine.
I get it now.
Stringy D - Posted - 09/06/2010: 16:02:22
I put a Bill Miller Vellum head on my Gold Tone OT-800 with a tubaphone tone ring. It looks and sounds cool. I believe that this head would bring out the best in any banjo.
Both of my banjos now have leather waterproofing spray on these heads. I'll report later if I think it reduces variations in tension. So far so good.
championofnorthhuron - Posted - 09/07/2010: 06:19:54
Hey Tomberghan... (or anyone here having experience/knowledge with skin heads),
Are you then talking silicone-based water proofer? I only ask because you also mention 'wipe-on' type water proofer. I've used various water proof concoctions on my shoes over the years, both wipe-on and sprays. Some of these wipe-ons were heavy, greasy concoctions (i.e. 'Snow Proof'). I can't imagine you'd want these on your banjo head. I haven't had a banjo with a skin head yet, but just bought one that I haven't received yet (actually it's arriving today... just bought Romero 0795 second hand from original owner, J-Walk). So I'm also wondering... does the water proofing also help the head resist getting grimy from use or make it more cleanable. I have a ren head on the banjo I have now, and I occasionally clean it with mild soap on a damp rag if it gets crappy looking where my thumb hits or where my palm sometimes contacts the head. Do skin heads, being organic and therefore I would assume porous to some degree, get dirty easier? Can skin heads be gently cleaned in any way? Do the darker dyed skin heads help hide this? I want to stick with skin heads for this banjo as I really like the sound. I may be looking at a dyed head in the future as I also really like the look. Thanks for any advice.
Champion of North Huron
Edited by - championofnorthhuron on 09/07/2010 06:46:25
Frailblazer - Posted - 09/24/2010: 21:02:05
I'm sure using a waterproofing spray works for some (as it clearly does for Tom) but it didn't for me. It totally killed the sound of the head (Bill Miller calfskin). It lost all it's presence and became lifeless and dull. The end result was that I replaced it and now just deal with the ever changing humidity here in NY.
Ric
jbalch - Posted - 09/25/2010: 07:07:48
I sometimes apply two coats of a spray waterproofer. The material I have was purchased at Rack Room Shoes...called: "Rain & Stain." I lightly spray lightly the top, back and crown of the head. After drying for 30 mintues, I repeat with another coat. Then I allow it to dry overnight as recommended on the can. I have not noticed any loss of sound quality or volume. I think it does make the skin somewhat more resistant to humidity. But it is not a total soultion.
I don't think it makes any difference as far as cleanability is concerned. Do not use water to clean a skin head. Try a white rubber eraser. Or you can use a light sandpaper (but be careful not to thin the skin too much). I say live with the dirt...it is a badge of honor.
My personal opinion (from experience and observation) is that skin heads need a very long time to completely stretch and cure. But, if they are properly mounted (with a crown that is not too high), they can be tightened in very small increments as needed. I think they do tend to stabilize over a period of many weeks or months. Some of my older heads ultimately require no adjustment and are very reliable. In the long run...I'm not sure that waterproofer really makes that much difference. It might help at first when the skin is new and still stretching a lot. But the ultimate solution is: a great hide...proper mounting...time...and patience.
Edited by - jbalch on 09/25/2010 07:20:35
Stringy D - Posted - 10/21/2010: 17:36:09
quote:
Originally posted by jbalch
My personal opinion (from experience and observation) is that skin heads need a very long time to completely stretch and cure. But, if they are properly mounted (with a crown that is not too high), they can be tightened in very small increments as needed. I think they do tend to stabilize over a period of many weeks or months. Some of my older heads ultimately require no adjustment and are very reliable. In the long run...I'm not sure that waterproofer really makes that much difference. It might help at first when the skin is new and still stretching a lot. But the ultimate solution is: a great hide...proper mounting...time...and patience.
At the end of the day, you are probably right.
Viper - Posted - 10/22/2010: 10:10:44
quote:
Originally posted by Stringy D
quote:
Originally posted by jbalch
My personal opinion (from experience and observation) is that skin heads need a very long time to completely stretch and cure. But, if they are properly mounted (with a crown that is not too high), they can be tightened in very small increments as needed. I think they do tend to stabilize over a period of many weeks or months. Some of my older heads ultimately require no adjustment and are very reliable. In the long run...I'm not sure that waterproofer really makes that much difference. It might help at first when the skin is new and still stretching a lot. But the ultimate solution is: a great hide...proper mounting...time...and patience.
At the end of the day, you are probably right.
I installed a goatskin head on my banjo just over a month ago. I followed Brooks Masten's advice of leaving the pot outside (well, next to an open window) to weatherize before fully tightening and reassembling. I haven't had to adjust the head since then, though I've never worried about tuning a head.
Stringy D - Posted - 10/22/2010: 16:30:29
quote:
Originally posted by Viper
I installed a goatskin head on my banjo just over a month ago. I followed Brooks Masten's advice of leaving the pot outside (well, next to an open window) to weatherize before fully tightening and reassembling. I haven't had to adjust the head since then, though I've never worried about tuning a head.
To me there would be differences, doing that way, between leaving it next to a window on a rainy humid night vs a dry, arid night. Changes may occur if you weatherize it to humid conditions and take it to a dry scenerio, or vice versa. Lately since it has been very dry in Cincinnati, my head has been tightening a little. It's been on the banjo since late August, and that is with waterproofing spray installed.
bluemule_77 - Posted - 10/25/2010: 11:35:22
Well, with great trepidation I've just ordered a Renaissance head to replace my Miller premount. It may only be temporary, but the calfskin head (whose tone I love) finally has stretched 'til the ball-end nuts on my Ome are bottomed out and it's still too soft. It's taken about 10 months to stretch that far, but now I'm out of room for adjustment. Still sounds decent, but it's best when good and tight.
Brian
chadp - Posted - 10/25/2010: 11:58:46
wouldn't a fiberskyn give you a more natural sound?
Emiel - Posted - 10/25/2010: 12:04:39
quote:
Originally posted by chadp
wouldn't a fiberskyn give you a more natural sound?
I don't think so...
bluemule_77 - Posted - 10/25/2010: 12:06:34
A Fiberskyn head is a weird thing. It strikes me as what someone who had never seen a real skin head would imagine one to look like. And I've tried them on several different types of banjos and not found them to my liking. I've not been owned anything with a Ren head yet, but those I've been around are certainly better LOOKING. I'll soon find out how they sound. I expect I'll wind up going back to skin in the end, though.
Emiel - Posted - 10/25/2010: 12:12:41
quote:
Originally posted by bluemule_77
A Fiberskyn head is a weird thing. It strikes me as what someone who had never seen a real skin head would imagine one to look like. And I've tried them on several different types of banjos and not found them to my liking. I've not been owned anything with a Ren head yet, but those I've been around are certainly better LOOKING. I'll soon find out how they sound. I expect I'll wind up going back to skin in the end, though.
Well, some skin heads do look more or less (more less than more...) like a Fyberskin head. Some skin heads look like Renaissance heads... Most skin heads look most like top-frosted heads, from a distance at least... All these heads capture various aspects of the skin heads sound. I believe the Renaissance heads sound most like a skin head, but not always on every banjo though...
Edited by - Emiel on 10/25/2010 12:13:15
Ron Ortegel - Posted - 10/25/2010: 12:15:44
My Reiter had a fybreskin on it when new. A Renaissance head improved it considerably.
But skin is till better.
Tackhead - Posted - 10/26/2010: 06:42:41
quote:
Originally posted by bluemule_77
Well, with great trepidation I've just ordered a Renaissance head to replace my Miller premount. It may only be temporary, but the calfskin head (whose tone I love) finally has stretched 'til the ball-end nuts on my Ome are bottomed out and it's still too soft. It's taken about 10 months to stretch that far, but now I'm out of room for adjustment. Still sounds decent, but it's best when good and tight.
Brian
Bill will do a re-mount for $29 including shipping.
~John
bluemule_77 - Posted - 10/26/2010: 06:52:18
Hey John,
Thanks for the info -- I had that in mind pending on my level of immediate dissatisfaction with the Ren. 
I'm sure mine stretching so far was an unusual circumstance so I'm not TOO worried about trying a premount again -- but I would have to get more than 10 months out of it!
Brian
