Tony Mabe - Posted - 10/28/2009:  12:14:38

i been playing for ten years and couldn't find a banjo i really liked or didn't have a complaint about, until i got my 60' rb-250 archtop. i must admit i've always favored flatheads, but i really like this alot better. it has been modified some, dual co-rods, opf resonator brackets, presto tailpiece, but it was this way when i got it.

God Bless,
Tony W. Mabe, Jr.

renopicker - Posted - 10/28/2009:  13:51:19

Me too, just bought an archtop 33 tb-3 so now I am going to be an Archie player too!

I had to get it for the mastertone ring and label, which in a Flathead OPF would pretty much require selling everything to get the banjo...

Have fun playing and be happy with what ya got!

and don't get above your raisins...

And you can always swap out rings... if you are into that sort of thing right?? without turning it!!!

Couchie - Posted - 10/28/2009:  13:53:13

1926 BB TB-3 conversion. I love it.

Don.

O=='=(::}

doncouchie.com

jbjo - Posted - 10/28/2009:  14:42:27

Old Gibson mutt archtop-i love it-it is and always will be my first "real" banjo!


-Cap
Gibson Archtop
"Wipe 'Yo Feets"

BanjoLink - Posted - 10/28/2009:  15:30:02

Chris - others:

Here are some photos of my RK (original tenor peghead)




this is the peghead on the neck I made

tubeandplate - Posted - 10/28/2009:  19:41:04

Boy, is this one warm fuzzy thread or what

Thanks for the PM, Mark!
Arnie- sounds just like the one I had...had a Frank Neat neck on it....great!
Tony- Good one! Pick the snot out of it! Bowtie raised head are FUN banjos!
Couchie- BB's count as raised heads in my book!
renopicker- Reno+Archie="Excellent Choice, Sir"
jbjo- Mutts welcome...I've made quite a few "mutts" from "thrown away" raised head rings from AT to FH conversions when the converter didn't want them; they were also loves of mine!

BanjoLink- VERY KEWL! Every once in a while you see that engraved block Gibson, but not often. I bet it's on an RK 'cause they had to ship a Granada or -6 and didn't have any ready to ship or something like that and shipped yours to fill a Mastertone order. I used to have all the Montgomery Ward '30's catalogs with all the RK's in them. I love Recording Kings and Studio Kings....they ain't called "King's" for nothin'!



[quote]Originally posted by BTuno

Here's an unusual one: '26 Granada that was probably converted at the factory in the 30s, to an archtop rim. A thin (~1/4") slice of another old rim was glued to the top of the BB rim. The added rim piece includes the top a Mastertone decal still on it! It has an orig 30's nickle 40 AT ring on it. Can't imagine why anyone would convert a BB to an AT, but guess that was the 'thing' in the 30s. The tone is unique: with a very tight head, it has a fine AT tone, that I expected, but a bit looser, and darned if it doesn't sound a lot like an old flathead. I was going to put a conversion ring on it, but I've enjoyed it so much as is, I'll prolly just leave it alone, besides I can't get the AT ring to budge! Never had an AT before, but sure love that bark!

BT


Hi BT- Forgive me, I missed your post earlier and meant to respond.

I think your banjo rim is factory original, not having been sent back after it's initial shipment, hence the Mastertone varnish transfer on the added piece.

I had a Granada like that, and MOST raised head style 5's are this way, as well as some mid-late 30's OPF 3s I've seen.

Theory is consistent with other Gibson factory practice imagined by reverse engineering and hindsight:

Gibson NEVER threw anything away, but recycled everything (like Wreath style 5 inlays in 30's Rudy Lyle -3's for example). The theory is they were using up all the nice rims that had already been made for BB's and using them in raised heads. The only theory that makes sense on the OPF -3's is that they were originally made as flathead rims (for plectrums or 5 strings) and built back up to fill raised head tenor necked orders!!!??? Kind of Twighlight Zonish from 2009 looking back, innit?

Your banjo will sound a lot better if you have the tonering removed and refit deftly by hand to the rim for the proper, looser fit it should have to sound right. A tight ring like that tends to mute the banjo's voice quite a bit, 'specially if it's as tight as you describe. Removing it when that tight is a care-filled proceedure to not mark/scar the rim or ring in the process.

I am experienced and adept at this operation if you ever take a notion.

Best Regards, BT

BT, if you are interested in such an operation, more about me and my shop activities for such things is here:

banjohangout.org/topic/152453

Chris Cioffi
(615)382-1376

Edited by - tubeandplate on 10/28/2009 20:02:34

BTuno - Posted - 10/29/2009:  12:20:15

I've sure enjoyed your posts on this thread Chris, and thanks for the advice on my Granny. I'll prolly just leave it alone for a while, and enjoy playing it as it. Good to know you're there.

I'm pleasantly surprised at how many AT'ophiles there out there, evidenced by this, and other threads. I like to listen to the old recordings of pre- and early bluegrass, and most banjos played then were obviously ATs. Its a wonderful old sound!



"Ya gotta get all them tunes in yer head"

tubeandplate - Posted - 10/29/2009:  15:12:23

BT-Just know I'm available to you anytime.

I love the "pre-bluegrass" period as well. It's neat to see pictures of Wade Mainer, Curly Sechler, The Morris Brothers, etc... in the 30's in bands holding the same instruments that would later become associated with bluegrass.

It's kind of like how blues players look at their "authentic" sound as compared to 50's early electric blues... a lot of paralells from that scene to ours in bluegrass, in my opinion, including the choice of instruments, which obviously affected the music in general (both musics, as well as the rural-urban/economic/sociological migrations and cultural changes).

Really, in my opinion, the 30's stuff is pretty much bluegrass, just not "ironed out" to the extent it was in the late 40's and early 50's after the great rural-urban migrations.

I grew up playing bluegrass, and still love it and play it today with a passion, but bluegrass was really the time portal that opened the door to me discovering older ancestral/cultural musics in America that led to it (bluegrass)....as well as 3 finger, front of the beat banjo playing of a lot of the bluegrass/fiddle repertoire....that whole thing goes way back into late Reconstruction (hmm....maybe we are still in the Reconstruction period....Lincoln did admit that he had ripped the soul out of America by pursuing the Civil War as he had done and was sorry about his actions-they never tell you THAT stuff in school as Lincoln is such a hero now ) times, and is fascinating music and 3 finger banjo playing (fully realized and recorded decades before Scrugg's parents would have even been born).

Don't get me started on where 3 finger banjo REALLY came from, got forgotten, then was rediscovered by Charlie Poole and then redistributed by him to all the Carolina hillbillys, who then all but claimed it as their own invention.

Oh, yeah, Charlie Poole....fellow "sub Mastertone" (pearloid OPF RB-2) and Ball Bearing Raised Head (BB RB-4 H&F) player...too bad he can't join in the thread-he'd fit right in if he could type sober...





banjohangout.org/topic/152453

Chris Cioffi
(615)382-1376

Edited by - tubeandplate on 10/29/2009 15:19:59

bbanjoboy - Posted - 11/03/2009:  07:39:01

When I decided to sell all my prewars and make my own 'tribute to the Lakota' banjo there was no question it would be an archtop. The best banjo I ever owned was a style 5 no hole arch...So in kind of tribute to it I made my Lakota banjo out of walnut.. not a prettier wood to be found anywhere if you ask me.. Someday I may make another.. If I do, I will purchase unplated brass hardware and go down that road to see the difference.. for now I'm happy with what I have.. It's not as good as the style 5, but better than most of the other banjos I've owned.. I'm going to go with a renaisance head just to see what that does for it.. I'm over the whole 'hype' of paying $800 for a prewar armrest.. what a bunch of bunk although the economy has surely put a damper on that.....

Kenny Bohling
lakotaleathers.com
Handmade and custom buffalo hide instrument straps from the Lakota Sioux Nation

bbanjoboy - Posted - 11/03/2009:  07:45:03

OH, and by the way.. at a great Jam session at SPBGMA last year, I was playing my Lakota arch top with a bunch of buddies.. 2 banjos in the session.. Mine and a great friend with a prewar 3 flathead.. I was facing the wall when a guy who had been listening tapped me on the shoulder.. His comment---- that's a GREAT sounding banjo.. probably the best I've heard all weekend... (with my buddy and his flathead 3 standing there facing him)....He hadn't seen the headstock or even the pot really.. when he asked me what year it was (assuming it to be a prewar Gibson) I turned and faced him.. he nearly deficated himself.. he said "It's an archtop".. and not even a Gibson.. I guess the turquoise and Sioux motiff on the fretboard and arrowhead peghead kinda weirded him out as well!>>> A very funny story.. So much for prewar, opf, flathead hype... whatever...

Kenny Bohling
lakotaleathers.com
Handmade and custom buffalo hide instrument straps from the Lakota Sioux Nation

gdoc - Posted - 11/06/2009:  21:59:48

Yippy dip skippy! I just got a 1926 Gibson Archtop BB....

Had one before, and just love the sound! After a few months of tweeking this one, I hope it will be the same.

gdoc

David Schenkman - Posted - 11/08/2009:  11:23:23

It is good to see that so many players are enjoying raised head banjos. I always have lots of them in my shop (at least twenty at the present time) and I also own some myself. My favorite is a walnut 1927 Florentine 40-hole which has wonderful tone. I also have a gold plated 1934 Recording King, and a checkerboard style 6 which still has the original skin head.

David Schenkman
Turtle Hill Banjo Co.
Bryantown, MD
200 banjos in stock!
turtlehillbanjo.com
banjoukes.com

Emiel - Posted - 11/08/2009:  11:37:18

quote:

---

Originally posted by David Schenkman

My favorite is a walnut 1927 Florentine 40-hole which has wonderful tone.

David Schenkman
Turtle Hill Banjo Co.
Bryantown, MD
200 banjos in stock!
turtlehillbanjo.com
banjoukes.com

---

David Schenkman - Posted - 11/08/2009:  11:50:28

Some Gibsons with low serial numbers had 40-hole rings, Emiel. The batch number on my Florentine is in the 8600s. I have two Bella Voce banjos in the shop now; both are from the 8600s and both have 40-hole rings. A number of years ago I had a Granada from the 0369 batch. It had a 40-hole ring and a clamshell tailpiece. Then I got the very next banjo from the batch and it had a no-hole ring and Kirschner tailpiece. Both were 100% original Granada tenors when I got them. I assume there were parts bins in the Gibson shop and workers just grabbed parts. They were just building banjos, not legends.

David Schenkman
Turtle Hill Banjo Co.
Bryantown, MD
200 banjos in stock!
turtlehillbanjo.com
banjoukes.com

Emiel - Posted - 11/08/2009:  12:00:10

Yes, of course. Thanks for your reply. Your 1927 Florentine was originally a tenor banjo, I guess?

Dave, I'm alway wondering if the 1928 RB-3, original RB, that Dock Boggs played and was later owned by Mike Seeger who recently passed away, had a 40-hole or a no-hole tonering. Do you happen to know?

Emiel

flickr.com/photos/emieldk/
bluerounders.com

David Schenkman - Posted - 11/08/2009:  14:04:47

I can't answer your question, Emiel. I can't recall ever seeing a no-hole RB-3, though.


David Schenkman
Turtle Hill Banjo Co.
Bryantown, MD
200 banjos in stock!
turtlehillbanjo.com
banjoukes.com

Emiel - Posted - 11/09/2009:  05:55:53

Thanks, Dave...

Emiel

flickr.com/photos/emieldk/
bluerounders.com

davey - Posted - 11/10/2009:  13:00:11

What a great subject. I wonder if any of you would kindly express how you discern the tonal differences between a solid and 40 hole ring ? Is thier much difference ?

Thank you all

Dave

Davey
Sonny and Bobby Osborne... Legends in Bluegrass...
Gene krupa... Legend in drumming.

David Schenkman - Posted - 11/10/2009:  13:10:37

I really doubt that there is much of any difference. I'm having two identical necks made now. Both will go on tube & plate TB-3 banjos, one with a 40-hole and the other with a no-hole. Scott Zimmerman made me a pair of identical old wood "Z" bridges, and they'll have the same type tailpieces. I'll be interested in comparing them.


David Schenkman
Turtle Hill Banjo Co.
Bryantown, MD
200 banjos in stock!
turtlehillbanjo.com
banjoukes.com

billy moore - Posted - 11/10/2009:  13:15:56

1928 pb5 conversion......I love my archtop! 40 hole/ no hole...not much of any difference that I can tell.

robbie macdonald - Posted - 11/12/2009:  19:39:55

I play a late 20's no hole archtop which, for me, is the perfect banjo. Most of the no hole archtops I've played have had somewhat a hybrid tone, a deeper and longer sustaining 4th string. 40 hole conversions can sound just as good but have been more variable in my experience. I have a 1960 RB-250 archtop with the classic bowtie inlays that is a fine sounding banjo though not as rich as the tube and plate no hole.

The trend over the time I've played (45 yrs) has been to tubby flatheads which tonally don't convey much country feeling. So many of the 1st & 2nd generation banjoists (Stover, Shelton, Bray, Dillard are a few) were archtop players that I'm surprised the more recent players haven't availed themselves to the still affordable pre-war archtops. The single flange archtops seem considerably more expensive and its been a long time since I've played one. They seem to end up as conversions. At least there are now some v. high quality conversion tone rings.

robbiemacdonald

mvolcjak - Posted - 11/13/2009:  09:26:17

Robbie,
I think you've nailed it...

I've noticed the same thing having had a late 30's (OPF) TB75 40-holer at one-time. It was definitely more on the treble side and not quite as dynamic" as my TB4 '28 no-hole arch top. "Richer" may be the best way to describe the no-hole tube and plates when compared to 40-hole arch tops.

I am not saying that 40-hole arch tops do not sound good, (I always loved Doug Dillard's sound), but I think the no-holes sound a little better . I eventually got rid of the TB-75 and kept the TB4 because (to me) it sounded better and I do prefer Tube & Plates - so this was a double whammy against the TB75.

Take it Easy ... MarK

jason holgate - Posted - 11/13/2009:  12:22:00

well gentlemen i am fortunate enough to have a 1928 granada at and prior to this i had a 1925 bb i love the arch top sound and am in full agree ment with you also i like the sound out of my 79 goldstar gf100 flathead i wouls rather pick and listen to the granada but everything has its place somedays i want vanilla and others chocolate ..........good posts here you fellas have jason

davey - Posted - 11/16/2009:  06:23:36

Anyone who checks out my profile will see under what banjo do you play " what do you play after an RB12"... well I believe it will have to be a 3 or 4 raised head conversion.
Let's hope it deos not get too expensive !

Well done on a great thread

Davey
Sonny and Bobby Osborne... Legends in Bluegrass...
Gene krupa... Legend in drumming.

davey - Posted - 11/18/2009:  03:40:40

Guys,
I found a chap called Paul Rafferty ( texas ? ) on youtube playing Peaches and cream on what would appear to be a parts banjo. The ring is a Gold plated 40 hole TB 3 ring, which is not usual.

Anyway, you may wish to search under Peaches and cream and listen to that Banjo. For me it typifies why we love raised head banjos, and I really love the tone.

Have a look and let me know what you think.
Dave

Davey
Sonny and Bobby Osborne... Legends in Bluegrass...
Gene krupa... Legend in drumming.

snuffdipper - Posted - 11/18/2009:  07:24:07

i've got a 1927 tb-florentine 40 hole that sounds great. i tried a conversion ring for a while and it sounded good but some banjo just look right as a arched top. it always bugged me so went back to the raised head and i'm glad i did.

davey - Posted - 11/26/2009:  01:51:07

Guys, I am very close to purchasing; 8528-3 1927 40 hole raised head style 3 conversion. Anybody know anything about this one ? previous owner maybe ?

Thanks all
Dave

Oldtwanger - Posted - 11/26/2009:  03:05:52

quote:

---

Originally posted by davey

Guys, I am very close to purchasing; 8528-3 1927 40 hole raised head style 3 conversion. Anybody know anything about this one ? previous owner maybe ?

Thanks all
Dave

---

Joe Spann - Posted - 11/26/2009:  06:03:13

As usual, the Oldtwanger is right on the mark. Happy Thanksgiving Frank!

Mike Johnson - Posted - 11/26/2009:  09:05:04

Like E.F Hutton........when Frank or Joe speaks-everybody listens. Happy thanksgiving to the whole Hangout gang.In keeping with the thread and the day I am going to go pick a tune of gratitude on 9262-38.

mamadontlow - Posted - 11/26/2009:  19:30:15

Having played both flat heads and archtops for years, I'd dare say you could set them up such that in a blind test, most people couldn't tell the difference.

FenderBender - Posted - 11/29/2009:  14:37:04

Have played my converted '26 TB3 BBAcrhtop since I was a kid. It put food on my table and payed the rent for years... been everywhere with it. Have played it almost 40 years. Randy Wood neck.

jmetz - Posted - 11/30/2009:  14:08:04

Folks,

Three of my five jos are archtops, one being a 54 RB 250.

Take care,
Jim

ambpicker - Posted - 11/30/2009:  16:23:46

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bill Rogers

Quite a few, really. I've got a converted '27 TB-3 no-hole with a top-tension-type resonator.

Bill

---

gdewolfe - Posted - 05/04/2010:  08:58:26

I have 2 archtops - one is a Grenada that Gibson put an archrop tone ring in for me, and the other is a Gibson RB converted into a Dannik tone ring. I have always loved the archtop sound since hearing Doug Dillard and have played almost nothing else since. The ring, sustain, and sparkle you just can't get with a flatop.

cotton eyed joe - Posted - 05/04/2010:  11:30:29

Cant wait to get my 27 tb-3 back together and converted!!

Beardog - Posted - 07/06/2010:  17:18:27

After reading through this thread yesterday, I got a wild hair, and converted my Gibson Style 5 New Century banjo to an arch top.

The original owner of my banjo had Bill Sullivan custom make a Factory Floor rim and Sullivan 40 hole arch top ring for the banjo. I've had it sitting around, and never even considered converting it to an arch top. Let me tell you, it sounds awesome. I am a believer!!

Aaron Thomas - Posted - 07/06/2010:  17:26:26

quote:

---

Originally posted by Beardog

After reading through this thread yesterday, I got a wild hair, and converted my Gibson Style 5 New Century banjo to an arch top.

The original owner of my banjo had Bill Sullivan custom make a Factory Floor rim and Sullivan 40 hole arch top ring for the banjo. I've had it sitting around, and never even considered converting it to an arch top. Let me tell you, it sounds awesome. I am a believer!!

---

justryin2play - Posted - 07/06/2010:  18:54:07

Can I join this gathering.....

9478-148 w/Don Bryant neck

Aaron Thomas - Posted - 07/06/2010:  21:01:59

I just posted a couple videos.. picking my archtop banjo..

Aaron Thomas - Posted - 07/07/2010:  18:07:50

1929 Gibson TB3 40 hole archtop conversion banjo.. mahogany neck..

jessie - Posted - 07/17/2010:  13:46:43

my archtop is a 1931 gibson pb 3 40 hole with a new wreath neck by robin smith .the pot is original ,the original tuners from the plectrum neck are on the new neck ,still working great .wonderful sounding banjo .

Michael Keith - Posted - 07/17/2010:  15:59:30

I have a 1926 Gibson ballbearing archtop. Love the sound Now it has a 5 string neck same design made by Arthur Hatfield.

Edited by - Michael Keith on 07/17/2010 16:02:10

impickin5 - Posted - 07/18/2010:  15:26:59

I've got a 1928 TB-3 conversion, with the original no-hole ring, and an exact reproduction 5-string neck made by Larry Cohea. Of the 32 banjos I've owned in my life, it's absolutely the best sounding banjo of all of them. The only way I would ever part with this banjo would be when you pryed it from my cold dead hands. I love it

Ray

Edited by - impickin5 on 07/18/2010 15:31:29

Aaron Thomas - Posted - 07/18/2010:  17:37:50

I wonder what will happen to the value of these old prewar Gibson archtop banjo now that Gibson has stopped banjo production and may never building any more banjos..

BanjoDuster - Posted - 07/18/2010:  18:06:03

I have an original '55 rb 250 (bowtie).

Edited by - BanjoDuster on 07/18/2010 18:09:53

banjobrandon - Posted - 07/19/2010:  19:31:29

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aaron Thomas

I wonder what will happen to the value of these old prewar Gibson archtop banjo now that Gibson has stopped banjo production and may never building any more banjos..

---

Aaron Thomas - Posted - 07/20/2010:  05:52:39

thats what i heard from a very good source. i'm not going to say who or where.. but I'm certain that Gibson will not be building any more banjos at least for a long time until they get themselves back on the right foot with the bluegrass world. There are too many other good builders out there that are selling very well built and very good sounding banjos. Huber, Yates, Hatfield and Sullivan to name just a few. Keep a close eye on Sullivan I think they've got something up their sleeve that's going to blow the banjo world out of the water.

robbie macdonald - Posted - 07/20/2010:  09:34:30

Gibson hasn't produced competitive banjos since the 50's. Even those who buy or are comped new Gibsons usually swap out the tone ring. Again, pre-war archtops are still the best value. And please, those of you who convert a pre-war archtop to a flathead, don't get rid of the archie tone-ring! It should stay with its pot until death do it part.

Another quick reply. A while back a member commented that it was hard or impossible to distinguish good flatheads from archtops. Setup variables could make this conjecture accurate but the archtop head's smaller surface area gives it a shorter sustain and often produces a kind of "clack" percussive element that flattops seem to never have. Certainly setup of many current flattops is ultra-tubby, (beyond mellow) a quality no setup will produce in a archtop.