RGJR - Posted - 09/08/2009:  19:03:59

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I'm a new guy here at the hangout, someone who really loves good banjo music, and who loves playing the banjo.

I want to share my story... perhaps it will help someone out.

First, I'll let you know a bit about me. I'm a pretty athletic guy... former all-state hockey player in Alaska, have lots of medals and trophies from being a high school track & field hurdler, like to run, do a lot of traditional archery, and just like to get out and do stuff. I have a 2 bachelor's degrees... one in music, one in accounting. So, while I'm no great hero, I do try hard to be successful at things. I started playing the piano at 26 years old, and now, 12 years later, I am pretty accomplished, read music, play by ear, teach piano, and have 3 recorded CDs. I also play guitar and dabble at the mandolin.

In 1999, I met a great banjo player and got to know him pretty well, and it made me want to try it. I got a Deering Goodtime II, found a teacher, got the black Scruggs book and Trishka's melodic banjo book. Then I practiced like a wild animal. I'm a little obsessive compulsive, and I wound up practicing about 3 hours a day. On my days off, I practiced 4 or 5 hours. Rolls, rolls, rolls. It seemed I had a little trouble getting my middle finger to get in sync with my index. I figured that since I'd learned the piano by practicing long, hard hours, I would try the same with banjo.

I took lessons for only about 3 months, learned the basics, and wound up moving out-of-state. I met a couple of guitar players who I started playing banjo with every week, and I noticed that I was having a hard time keeping rhythm with them, even though I could easily play rolls at that speed when practicing alone. My fingers started flailing. My picks would catch on the strings and fly off my fingers.

Completely frustrated, I bought a decent guitar and started learning how to play it. Within about 3 months, I could play guitar (rhythm) with these two guys with no problem. I kept practicing the banjo on my own, in private, trying to get those fingers in sync. But to no avail.

RGJR - Posted - 09/08/2009:  19:10:30

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I tried playing with my 1,2 & 4 fingers, but it didn't work well. I tried playing with 1, 3 & 4, and it was OK.. but still not as smooth as I would have liked.

So, I had only one option. I was playing a Gold Tone by that time, and I called Wayne and asked him to send me a lefty neck.

Starting out at square one all over again, I had NO PROBLEMS at all with picking with my left hand. There was hope! But after a while, my right hand started having problems fretting.

Whoops... I forgot to explain... when I was picking with my right hand, my 2nd and 3rd fingers hard started to extend involuntarily straight out. I could not get them to stop. The same thing was happening as I fretted with my right hand.

And the same thing is happening somewhat even as I type this right now.

So, I tried the lefty thing, learned a bunch of songs, but eventually gave it up. I played righty for about 4 years, lefty for 2, and then sold all my banjo stuff on E-bay.

Even after I quit the banjo, my dystonia got much, much worse.

RGJR - Posted - 09/08/2009:  19:15:09

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I started to wake up in the middle of the night because my fingers were extending straight out so hard that it made my hand hurt. I started having lots of trouble sleeping at night.

I had to start using the computer mouse with my left hand. I used to type 80 wpm, but started not being able to type with my right hand at all.

I went to a bunch of doctors. They sent me to therapists, arthritis specialists, and finally a brain and spine doctor. She gave me electro-shock testing (which was NO fun), and then said, "I don't know what is going on, but at Northwestern University (I think) in Chicago, they may be able to help you."

I dragged my feet, as I had little money and bad insurance. I tried Botox. It did nothing, and the 3 months it took to wear off were pretty difficult.

But then...

RB5 - Posted - 09/08/2009:  19:39:45

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I have edited my question to read, please tell us more about your solution to distonia. It has been pointed out to me by a member who I totally agree with that the way I had worded my question made it sound like I was impatient. Upon re-reading it myself found that it not only made me sound impatient but also arogant and obnoxious. I truly apologize for this and the trouble it caused for the member who pointed this out to me. Robert.

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Edited by - RB5 on 09/13/2009 07:20:36

RGJR - Posted - 09/08/2009:  19:43:32

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I rigged something up, using 2 rings and a pony-tail holder between them, creating a little "tendon" that would pull my middle finger back toward the palm of my hand. I used this at work to type, showed the doctor, and she said it was brilliant. But it didn't always work... sometimes I took the ring off the end of my finger (by the nail) and let it dangle. At some point I noticed that when that ring dangled against the tip of my ring finger, the finger relaxed. So, I made a little thing that would just dangle, and it really started helping. (My hand did (and still does) extend quite hard when I'm just walking and the hand is doing nothing; but with the little dangly thing touching the finger, it stops.) According to some Focal Dystonia stuff that I found on the web, this is common, and it's a way to trick the affected nerves somehow.

Fast forward to 4 weeks ago. I decided to buy a banjo so that my daughter might want to learn it someday. My 2nd Deering Goodtime. My father-in-law, a decent bluegrass guitar player, encouraged me to play banjo with him and use the thumb & 2-3 fingers. It worked a bit. Then I put picks on fingers 1-2-3 and the thumb, and found myself playing with thumb, 1 & 2 from time to time.

The fingers NO LONGER EXTEND DUE TO THE DYSTONIA when I play banjo. They still plague me when I type. I still must use the mouse with my left hand. It affects my piano playing. And I am 95% sure that this problem will probably stick with me for quite some time, perhaps the rest of my life.

AND, I still have the same original issue where the 2 and 3 fingers don't want to work well together when picking. In retrospect, I think this is what triggered the dystonia in the first place.

To all of you obsessive-compulsive pickers out there who might be trying to power through the same type of issue yourselves... beware. Beware. I feared that I might be losing the use of my right hand altogether -- it was that serious for a while. And no instrument is worth that.

Now, I'm trying to use the banjo as therapy. It gives me a way to work pulling my fingers up toward the palm of my hand. I can pick pretty well using my thumb, 1, 2, & 3 fingers at the same time, but the hand has to float. I'm trying to delicately practice with the right fingers, plant the ring and pinky fingers, and figure that if I can ever play well this way, it will probably take me a few years to get there.

THE END. I hope this gives somebody some good insight.

Roman

beemfrost - Posted - 09/08/2009:  20:00:27

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My son is a cellist - former principal in several orchestras in the midwest. Several years ago he was diagnosed with focal distonia in his left hand (used to finger) and is presently undergoing botox treatments. He can play in casual situations but not seriously.
His hand would twitch and grip at random. Looking back, he now thinks he's been having symptoms for many years and has been compensating for it. Doing this until it got so bad, he couldn't ignore it any more. His GP diagosed it and sent him to two specialists in Chicago. His prognosis is uncertain.

RGJR - Posted - 09/08/2009:  20:16:08

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I think that what helped me the most was having the "nerve trick" that relaxed my hand, and using it regularly for a couple of years. I had written off the banjo entirely, and was just trying to deal with the problem.

I'm not sure that I have a true "focal" dystonia right now, as it occurs when I do a number of activities, not just when the instrument is in my hand. If it's possible, then I think that I had a focal dystonia that became a broad "dystonia" over time.

When I went to the brain specialist, she inserted needles with microphones attached to them into my forearm, where the fingers receive electrical impulses from the brain. Even in a completely relaxed state, the microphones revealed to us that my brain sends a constant signal to my index and ring fingers, telling them to extend. The signal never stops; maybe now my retracting (opposite) muscles are learning to overcome that signal.

Whatever is going on, the doctors have not been able to help me at all. The internet has given me the best idea of what is going on and how to deal with it.

RB5 - Posted - 09/09/2009:  18:16:00

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This dystonia thing, would it be the same as carpotunnel ?

That's my story and I'm sticking with it!

Robert.

stanger - Posted - 09/09/2009:  19:43:17

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Wow!
I'm glad you are finding some success, RG. Your case of dystonia is the worst I've heard of!
I have an long time banjo-playing friend who developed focal dystonia a few years ago. He recognized what he had early on, and was lucky enough to find a doctor who knew something about it.

He was treated successfully with an epileptic (I think) medication, one of the new ones, but found that he had to increase the dosage regularly to keep the dystonia at bay, so he dropped it for fear of side effects. He's now getting Botox shots, which seem to be working OK for him.

RB- Focal dystonia isn't at all the same as carpal tunnel, although the physical effects may be similar. It's a neural brain disorder.
Exactly what causes it is unknown, but what happens is the brain-nerve connection gets messed up, causing involuntary spasms in the fingers and hands.
High repetition stuff, like playing a piano (or a banjo) seems to be an activity that may bring it on in some of the folks who have it.

Jack Baker, a well-known banjo teacher in New York City, has had it for years. He learned how to play lefty, and never got the right hand fretting problems RG suffers with.

As I recall, Van Cliburn, the famous pianist, has it, and there's another pro pianist who now only plays with his left hand. A third couldn't play for 30 years, but found some effective treatment at last. The condition is a real career killer as well as being very painful.
regards.
Stanger

The pen is mightier than the pigs.

RGJR - Posted - 09/09/2009:  20:00:03

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I can really tell that it is a brain-nerve disorder, because when I do some things that are completely unexpected and subconscious, I realize after I do it that my hand worked perfectly fine. If I have a moment of inspiration and start typing really, really fast, I can do it.

But this problem is really annoying. I have a hard time even using my right hand to lather up shampoo in my hair. It is very laborious for me to use my right hand to turn pages in books, or pick up a quarter that's fallen on the floor.

I guess the moral of my story is to not push it too hard when trying to learn to pick. If you can't pick fast, just be content. Maybe in 10 years you'll suddenly realize that you've become a fast picker. I used to turn up the metronome and practice standing, leaning against a wall. I'd stand there for so long that my foot and knee would hurt all the next day. That kind of practicing was great for my learning the piano, but it was destructive with the banjo.

beemfrost - Posted - 09/09/2009:  20:10:55

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I think I read somewhere that it is hereditary

RGJR - Posted - 09/09/2009:  20:52:36

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I haven't seen that anywhere, and I've tried to read everything that there is on it. But anything's possible...!

Surveyor - Posted - 09/09/2009:  21:22:51

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Wow. I learn something new everyday. I really HAVE to stop complaining...

Mr. B

Wind me up and watch me go!

beemfrost - Posted - 09/10/2009:  09:35:48

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Found it...

www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/...dystonias.htm

"...About half the cases of dystonia have no connection to disease or injury and are called primary or idiopathic dystonia. Of the primary dystonias, many cases appear to be inherited in a dominant manner; i.e., only one carrier parent need contribute the dystonia gene for the disease to occur, each child having a 50/50 chance of being a carrier. In dystonia, however, a carrier may or may not develop a dystonia and the symptoms may vary widely even among members of the same family. The product of one defective gene appears to be sufficient to cause the chemical imbalances that may lead to dystonia; but the possibility exists that another gene or genes and environmental factors may play a role.

Some cases of primary dystonia may have different types of hereditary patterns. Knowing the pattern of inheritance can help families understand the risk of passing dystonia along to future generations."

Probably means there'll be a genetic test for focal dystonia down the pike sometime.

I think you're doing exactly the right thing - don't stress it, but keep at it in a reasonable way.

regards and best wishes!

RGJR - Posted - 09/10/2009:  12:02:43

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beemfrost --

Thanks for the info.

Perhaps this was just a minor hereditary thing that I launched into mega-mode when I started fanatically playing the banjo...

I guess I'll never know.

RG

Alex Z - Posted - 09/10/2009:  23:39:23

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Leon Fleisher is the pianist that stanger refers to, who overcame focal dystonia after 30 years. (I just happened to hear his recent recording of Shubert's Bb Sonata on the radio this morning.)

He tried a lot of therapies that did not work. The treatment that was finally successful was a specialized form of massage, the result of which apparently affects how nerve impulses are transmitted in the muscles, tendons, and ligaments.

Mr. Fleisher is one of the giants of classical piano players. Just listening to the Shubert sonata, you would think, "Holy smoke, who IS that guy?" So if he has been able to overcome focal dystonia and resume playing at such a level, there must be something to the massage therapy that was his remedy.

Those suffering from focal dystonia might research Mr. Fleisher's story. Maybe the same remedy can work for others.

Alex Z

RB5 - Posted - 09/13/2009:  07:08:22

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Sorry to whomever I have offended with my previous post. My father once said to me when I was a young man that when you do or say something that is not right, don't walk away from it, fess up, admit your wrongdoing and fix it. Very important for the person you may have hurt and equally important for your own self growth. Life is a school and you learn your last lesson on your last breath.
Robert.

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Edited by - RB5 on 09/13/2009 07:34:38

RGJR - Posted - 09/13/2009:  18:34:07

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Robert, no offense taken! But your willingness to make something like that right puts you in a higher class than a lot of people. Thanks!

I actually thought that original post of yours was funny.

Roman

RB5 - Posted - 09/15/2009:  12:35:41

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RGJR

I thought it was funny too and I meant no harm by it but I guess I have to respect that what is funny to me is not necessarily to others. When I read it again I thought it could be taken as a rude coment so I took it off and replaced it with more suitable wording. Sorry.

That's my story and I'm sticking with it!

Robert.

moreisles - Posted - 10/04/2009:  05:44:36

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Could the term fly away finger be classified as focal dystonia? My story is that I am trying and trying to control my #2 (index) finger. I have had great advice here on how to practice and have followed it (obsessively, compulsively?) for hundreds of hours with little improvement.
Perhaps, finally I can find some help through a medical approach. Thank you thank you for your posting. I have thought that I was just a klutz and could muscle through it..

If your behind, eat tomatoes and you will ketchup...

RGJR - Posted - 10/04/2009:  20:23:59

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quote:

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Originally posted by moreisles

Could the term fly away finger be classified as focal dystonia? My story is that I am trying and trying to control my #2 (index) finger. I have had great advice here on how to practice and have followed it (obsessively, compulsively?) for hundreds of hours with little improvement.
Perhaps, finally I can find some help through a medical approach. Thank you thank you for your posting. I have thought that I was just a klutz and could muscle through it..

If your behind, eat tomatoes and you will ketchup...

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Moreisles,

That's about how I started my battle. I noticed that my middle finger was straightening out -- "flying". So, I watched a pro banjo player, noticed his finger curvature, and tried desperately to mimic that. I just couldn't do it, and muscling through it wound up teaching my brain to bridge some nerve endings (I think), and now the muscle contractions are usually uncontrollable.

If I were you, I'd relax, find a comfortable speed to practice at, and practice for no more than 15 minutes at a time, throughout the day. Or, at least take some significant breaks. Let that finger just relax and be itself, and nudge it into doing what you want it to do. What's the hurry anyway? (That's what I tell myself now.) Just my 2 cents.

R Fox - Posted - 03/02/2010:  07:33:35

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I have a problem with my thumb wanting to point downward after I start a roll. Could this be some form of focal dystonia??? I am coming up on 4 years of playing and the first 3 1/2 years my thumb done pretty much the right thing. Then in October of 2009, I started noticing that my thumb was not hitting the strings like it was supposed to. After I start any roll, within a few seconds, my thumb is not pointing towards the peghead anymore - it is pointing more and more toward the floor, and of course that won't work. I can concentrate hard on keeping it pointing toward the peghead and that will work, but even then, ever few notes it will bend at the first knuckle back from the fingernail, and the rest of my thumb will start to point downward. I have tried ever position known to humankind to try and fix this, and I am having no luck. I felt very good about my progress on the banjo until this. I could play quite a few songs at 100 to 110 or so, without missing the notes much. I have spent so much time on trying to fix this, I am forgetting many of the songs I used to be able to play. My index and middle finger work just fine. I have always been able to plant both ring and pinky with no problems. Any suggestions???

JR - Posted - 03/02/2010:  10:42:28

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R Fox, my thumb does the same thing, and I've been playing for a long time (not well, but a long time ).

If I play slowly, I can keep my thumb straight, but playing up to speed my thumb doesn't stay straight like most people's. It's an involuntary thing and I've wondered if it's not caused by a mild case of focal dystonia, or perhaps it's from clutching a computer mouse every workday for the past 20 years. I notice that when my hand is on the mouse, the thumb is bent at the knuckle, so that may have become my natural thumb position.

It doesn't seem to make my playing any worse for doing it, it just seems like all the pro's keep their thumbs straight and I ought to be doing that, too. Maybe my playing would improve.

R Fox - Posted - 03/02/2010:  11:18:43

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OK on all. Well, you are the only one so far that replied that has the same thing going on with their thumb. This problem has really messed my playing up. And the thing is, this happened pretty quickly. My teacher, who by the way is an incredible bluegrass player of anything with strings on it, had not noticed it either - thats how fast this weird thing developed. Since the problem has developed, I seem to spend most of my time now, just trying to get my thumb to co-operate, very frustrating. I certainly don't want to throw in the towel, but I am getting quite discouraged now with it. Ross