JKalsow - Posted - 09/07/2009:  11:28:08

I was wondering as a beginner
1.) What are the advantages to a fretless banjo?
2.) Would you recomend learning on a flush-fret fretless or just learn on a fretted banjo? (Enoch I see makes a flush-fret)

I'll be getting my first openback for learning clawhammer soon and I have a thousand questions. This is a major purchase for me and I want to get an American made banjo for around $1300. I can't afford to be 'upgrading' for another 10 years so I want to make as educated a decision as possible. I'm a little obsessed so please bare with me and my questions.

Am I a nut or does anyone else labor over their banjo decisions/choices?

Thanks for your input

rinemb - Posted - 09/07/2009:  11:52:56

I have both, but play either, only sparingly. I like the flush frets, but find that if I am only rarely adventuring past the 5th fret that I don't look for the fret marks.

Brad

You may be man enough to take my woman, but you'll never get my banjo.

May not the incidence of success, nor the pretense of retirement-
Lessen the want of enlightenment.

KE - Posted - 09/07/2009:  11:59:30

I play both fretted and fretless, lately about 90% fretless. If it were I, I'm pretty sure I'd decide to start (again) with frets. The advantages are many, and the limitations few. When your hands get the feel of the positions ingrained into muscle memory, it's relatively easy to make a transition to fretless, by which time the markers will be unnecessary. Just my two cents.

Edited by - KE on 09/07/2009 12:00:16

Bill Rogers - Posted - 09/07/2009:  12:03:53

You need to decide what you want to do with your banjo playing. If you want to commit to Round Peak style or learn to play like R D Lunceford (a superb model by the way), then fretless would be the way to go. If you're a beginner, flush frets would mean little to you. They're great for someone who's starting fretless but already plays fretted since they offer a visual cue. But if you can afford only one banjo, I'd think very carefully about just what you want to get, and that depends on what you want to play. Incidentally, other than Lunceford, I can't think of one nationally well-known old-time player who plays only a fretless banjo--fwiw.

Bill

mike hansen - Posted - 09/07/2009:  12:22:39

1) Advantage of a fretless banjo:
-with no frets you have the freedom to play "in-between notes"
-Slides come off very good...in fact they are fantastic
-because the fiddle is 'fretless' you can combine the two extremely well
-bridge placement is left to your discretion. because intonation is determined by where you put your fingers you can move the bridge to a sweet spot. Many prefer to put the bridge in the exact or almost exact middle of the head (on 12"). They say the sound is dispersed better that way.
note: with flushfrets you are locked in to one bridge location...if you move the bridge around the flush markers are obsolete.

disadvantages of fretless:
- harder to make full chords
- difficult to use the notes past the 7th (9th) fret...even with flush markers...note: the partial fretless models help with this.
- use of a capo is out of the question...this could be an issue if you want to sing along.
- may (or may not) limit your musical scope.

It's all up to you and what you want to play. If you want to concentrate on one style (say the Round Peak Style) then maybe a fretless is the way to go. However, I have heard the round peak style played on fretted banjos...and It sounds great too.

Ultimately I find it good to have both a fretted and a fretless banjo on hand...but if I had to choose one over the other I'd choose the fretted banjo...

but that's just me. You have to ask yourself "what do I want to learn the banjo for? What sound initially peaked my interest? Will I really be dedicated to this crazy endeavor?

mike hansen - Posted - 09/07/2009:  12:29:08

ps. it seems like you want a Round Peak Style banjo. If so you can't go wrong with one of Kevin Fore's. They are based on Kyle Creed's banjos. Riley Baugus was making banjos in this style, but was forced to quit due to his ever growing celebrity status.

In many ways Kyle's banjos have set the stage for a lot of the new designs...ie 12" pot and frailing scoop...although Kyle rarely, if ever, actually scooped his banjos...he just set the action high enough to play over the neck...Kevin Fore has followed suit.

At Mt. Airy this year I visited Kevin at his camp and he let me play all the banjos he had with him (about 7!!) One was a Kyle Creed original, and the rest were made by him...fretted and fretless. They sound awesome!!!
I've tried almost all of the modern builders (either though owning, borrowing, or just visiting) and none have left the same lasting impression on me as Kevin Fore's sturdy axes.

mike hansen - Posted - 09/07/2009:  12:36:57

one more thing:

flush frets really are kind of dumb. Fretless banjo is best played though feeling out and hearing out the correct notes...the hand will relax and muscle memory will take over once your ear is more and more convinced of the right spot to press down on the fret board. Music is best learned though listening and not looking. I get the best results when I close my eyes, or while looking away from the fretboard.

If you are learning from Tab then markers help, but let me say that if you are starting out with tab you are opening the door to paralysis down the road.

so in my opinion it is either a fretless or a fretted banjo...the flush fret is ultimately silly.

PS. if you want to use steel strings it may be best to buy a banjo with a german silver or brass plate covering the first 5-7 frets. Steel just does not seem to react that well with plain ebony...however, nylon or gut do!

another option: Gred Galbreath...BUCKEYE BANJOS. He can make a banjo to suit any need...as all are custom made with your imput...check him out...

John Herrington - Posted - 09/07/2009:  13:47:52

Contrary to popular conception I regularly use a capo on my Prust 13 inch fretless banjo when tuned to a low c tuning. I use the g pattern, only drop it down to a growley c. I then marked the positions of d with the capo and e likewise. I simply marked it on the top of the fretless neck. I have absolutely no problem with pull-offs and hammer-ons. Of course, I simply tune the fifth string up or down to match my tuning--a simple enough procedure to be entirely practical, and fast also.

Note, I love this "low" c tuning, and the capo and Nylgut strings broaden my range on the very fine fretless Prust. It might not work on banjos tuned in higher keys to begin with or with banjos of lesser quality than Eric Prust's fine instruments.


Old John, on the Big Horn River

harvey - Posted - 09/07/2009:  13:49:02

It depends on how much of a beginner you are. If you've never picked up a banjo before, I can imagine it will be easier to get started on a fretted instrument -- eg easier to make use of tabs, online material etc.

But: I see from your profile that you already own a Goltone OB250. So you already have a fretted banjo. In that case, you might have the experience to allow you easily to learn fretless. You simply need to decide which style you want to play. And you can always frail your Goldtone whenever you are in need of a change.

banjers51 - Posted - 09/07/2009:  14:15:31

I've played fretless banjos for years, and see some advantages to all of the options mentioned so far. If playing above the 7th fret position really isn't much of a concern, I'd recommend a simple fretless instrument.

I happen to like flush-fret fingerboards, but I also play a lot of tunes up the neck. Keep in mind, however, that unlike a fretted neck, where finger placement isn't terribly critical, with a flush-fret, you have to place your finger right on the fret marker, unless you're purposely trying to play pitches that differ by a few cents from an equally tempered scale (which I'd certainly recommend experimenting with). In other words, having flush-frets is decidedly not the same as playing with a fretted fingerboard.

I've played a couple of the so-called "partial" or "half" fretless instruments, both of which had a metal overlay covering the first seven fret positions. As others have mentioned, this makes playing up the neck much easier, although the transition from fretless to fretted is noticeable in terms of the tone produced. Personally, this has little appeal to me because I enjoy playing with both steel and nylon (or gut) strings, and the latter sound dull on a metal plate, at least to my ears. I see that Kevin Enoch is offering a similar instrument in the Tradesman line without the metal plate (i.e., plain ebony for the fretless section), which might change my mind.

And finally, I'd second the recommendation that you take a close look at Greg Galbreath's "Buckeye" banjos. He's a really talented young builder, and a pleasure to work with.

Banjers51

JKalsow - Posted - 09/07/2009:  14:28:59

Thanks for your input everyone. I think I should probably stick with fretted.
I don't really want to commit to round peak style necessarily Bill but I have a great opportunity to play with several local 'old time' jam groups (very talented groups who are very welcoming/tollerant of beginners).

There is a local 'Mom-n-Pop' acoustic music store that has a Reiter Galax and Round Peak in stock both fretted. I would like to buy American and locally if I can. Any preferences between those two models?

They are both within my budget and I like the sound of both.
I would appreciate more experienced opinions to help me decide.

Thank you

mike hansen - Posted - 09/07/2009:  14:48:41

I owned a Galax for about two years...and I really miss it! It has a whyte laydie tone ring, which gives it a punch and a sparkle. It also sounds good when played over the neck.
I've not played the round peak model...but it seems like a great banjos.

Bart makes a great neck.

You are lucky to have a store nearby with two of his banjos in stock. My advice: pick your favorite tune, the one you feel most comfortable playing and try it on each banjo...going back an forth. try playing it over the head then over then neck.
You may even want to bring your current with you...so you can first hand hear the difference.

one more thing. I always placed a thick sponge between the dowel rod and the head (inside the pot) in order to cut down on over tones. a balled up sock works well too. I often bring such things to music shops. It may be best to ask, but most dealers would not mind...some shops even supply a little basket with pre "balled" socks...I always appreciate that!

I think either banjo will suit you well..good luck on making a decision.

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 09/07/2009:  14:59:22

First off, thankyou for your kind words Bill.

Since you are a beginner and won't be getting another banjo for 10 years,
I'd go with a fretted model. Fretlesses have particular advantages in the light of certain styles (Roundpeak being the most notable) that have to do with the character of the slides and the ability to play micro-tones. It should be noted that some RP players use fretted banjos and it is still possible to play that music on a fretted instrument.

I do play fretless fairly exclusively these days, but I also view myself as primarily a "solo act". Not that it has to be that way if you play fretless, it just turned out that way in my case, and part of it has to do with the fact that I play *low-tuned* fretless which can make keys an issue.

Being a beginner is a factor to consider also. Of course beginners in 1850 all learned on fretless banjos so it obviously can be done, but I would suggest that optimally you have a feel for the fingerboard before you go fretless.

In the end, a fretted instrument is going to be more versatile.

You say whatever you get is going to be it for 10 years. If that wasn't the case, I'd say, get up to an intermediate level on fretted then try out the fretless. If you don't have all of the CH technique down, learning on a fretless is kind of like being a first-time driver and learning with a stick-shift.......it's just one more thing to deal with.

That said, follow your heart. If you really want to play fretless banjo or pursue a style that uses it then by all means get a fretless- you'll never be happy until you do.



R.D. Lunceford- "Missourian in Exile"
Model 1865 Bowlin Fretless Banjo
****************************************************
"Drink from the Musselfork once, and you'll
always come back." -Dr. Bondurant Hughes, 1917

banjoghost - Posted - 09/08/2009:  17:20:12

if you have $1,300 to spend, i'd say get this:
http://elderly.com/vintage/items/60U-2299.htm
and one of these:
http://www.chloesgarden.com/Banjos%...Tackhead.htm

you'll be happy for the rest of your life and have a hundred dollars left over for candy.

seriously, though, i have both of the above. i've never been disppointed by the gibson, it's amazingly versatile and seems to get better every day. i just got a prust a couple of weeks ago and am in serious love. course, it's really best to shop around and find one you really like, the above is just an example. ten years is a long time. you may be surprised what can happen. there's also that bugaboo called banjo acquisition syndrome, which as far as diseases go, is really pretty benign...

rudy - Posted - 09/10/2009:  14:51:41

I'm a little late to voice an opinion, but given the question posed I'd drop my money on a good fretted banjo and save up for an inexpensive fretless after I felt I'd developed sufficient muscle memory on the fretted banjo first.

That said, I kind of like my "kind of dumb" flush frets. No way no how could I play anything fast up the neck without them. Here's "Gracie, Don't Fret", a quick example posted in myhangout music:

http://www.banjohangout.org/myhango...asp?id=3035#

Visit my website for assorted banjo construction information:
http://www.bluestemstrings.com/page...onTips1.html

Edited by - rudy on 09/10/2009 14:54:08

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 09/10/2009:  17:22:59

Rudy;

Nice playing.

Checked out your "Rachael" also.
Just beautiful.
Thanks for the music.

R.D. Lunceford- "Missourian in Exile"
Model 1865 Bowlin Fretless Banjo
****************************************************
"Drink from the Musselfork once, and you'll
always come back." -Dr. Bondurant Hughes, 1917

rudy - Posted - 09/11/2009:  19:15:56

Thanks, R.D. With comments like that from you, I'm going to keep on playing!

Visit my website for assorted banjo construction information:
http://www.bluestemstrings.com/page...onTips1.html

Boog - Posted - 09/15/2009:  09:34:26

I've never seen a flush fretless. Are the frets metal or wood inlay?

rudy - Posted - 09/15/2009:  09:46:17

Boog, Mine are .023" wide maple strips inlaid into an ebony board and sanded flush with the surface.





Visit my website for assorted banjo construction information:
http://www.bluestemstrings.com/page...onTips1.html

Edited by - rudy on 09/15/2009 09:47:56

Boog - Posted - 09/15/2009:  10:40:23

quote:

---

Originally posted by rudy

Boog, Mine are .023" wide maple strips inlaid into an ebony board and sanded flush with the surface.





Visit my website for assorted banjo construction information:
http://www.bluestemstrings.com/page...onTips1.html

---

CW Spook - Posted - 09/15/2009:  19:56:00

Boog,
I've got a couple of flush-fretted banjos. Pix are on my BHO homepage if you're looking for more examples.

Rick

Rick

"The King has note of all that they intend, by interception which they dream not of. "

Henry V, Act ll, Scene 2.

WGE - Posted - 09/16/2009:  14:30:30

When I was considering a fretless I thought about the flush-fret option. I decided against it. Obviously, flush frets fix a scale, whereas, a blank fretboard would allow a small range of scales depending upon the bridge placement, and this would give you flexibility to find the best bridge position for your hand. The other obvious issue is that from a distance you can't tell a flush-fret instrument from a fretted instrument. If I'm going to be playing a fretless banjo, I want it to clearly be fretless; I just like the look of a nice blank ebony fretboard. Finally, if you get to the point you don't have to look at your lefthand, you won't see any flush frets anyway. So, for me a non-flush-fret-fretless was the best choice.

Boog - Posted - 09/16/2009:  16:44:01

I don't really care about how it looks to an audience. I think what the banjo would allow you to do is to play accurately if you want to but still allow you the flexibility to be "creative"

Boog - Posted - 09/16/2009:  16:45:50

quote:

---

Originally posted by CW Spook

Boog,
I've got a couple of flush-fretted banjos. Pix are on my BHO homepage if you're looking for more examples.

Rick

Rick

"The King has note of all that they intend, by interception which they dream not of. "

Henry V, Act ll, Scene 2.

---

Edited by - Boog on 09/16/2009 18:08:00

roundpeakbanjos.com - Posted - 09/16/2009:  18:06:32

As a beginner I would go with a fretted banjo.

Round Peak Banjo's by Kevin Fore
Lowgap, N.C.
www.roundpeakbanjos.com
I have a new CD out called Round Peak The Tradition Continues. I do all the clawhammer banjo work. It features all Round Peak tunes but 1 Bluegrass tune Head Over Heels done on a fretless The CD can be purchased directly from me for 15 bucks and I do accept PayPal. Some of the folks that helped me out were. Kirk Sutphin, Benton Flippen, Chester Mcmillian, David Holt, Verlin Clifton, Bobby Patterson, Katie Golding, Eddie Bond and my regular band Southern Pride
It is available now directly from me or CD Baby http://cdbaby.com/cd/kevinfore

WGE - Posted - 09/16/2009:  18:09:59

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boog

I think what the banjo would allow you to do is to play accurately if you want to but still allow you the flexibility to be "creative"

---

Boog - Posted - 09/16/2009:  19:03:08

quote:

---

Originally posted by WGE

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boog

I think what the banjo would allow you to do is to play accurately if you want to but still allow you the flexibility to be "creative"

---

Quite right , Boog. That was behind all my basic arguments favoring a plain fretless fingerboard.

---

JKalsow - Posted - 09/16/2009:  21:02:40

Thank you all for your advice.
It looks like I'll start with frets and once I have some skills down and my BAS drives to fretless....fretless I will go.

Thanks again. Man, I love BHO for resources like you all.

-Jeff