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hippie_cune - Posted - 02/24/2009: 11:44:22
ok..
so im not new to music, nor fingerpicking.
ive played guitar for 4 years now and am a music major in college..
so once i get chord shapes, scale shapes, and picking rolls in i think id be ok...
but where do i start?
im interested in ANYTHING and EVERYTHING 
~Peace~
banjozalm - Posted - 02/24/2009: 11:59:32
I'm not a 4 string player, but I don't think they really do rolls. Rolls are mostly played on a 5 string banjo when playing bluegrass.
Zachary Dale Almaguer
Bill Rogers - Posted - 02/24/2009: 12:29:42
Four string banjos are almost always flatpicked. Do you have a tenor (17 or 19 frets) or plectrum (22)? What kind of music to you plan to play? That will shape your approach and your tuning.
Bill
hippie_cune - Posted - 02/24/2009: 12:31:44
i guess its a tenor.. 19 frets.
and i guess blues-folk-ish music.
thanks guys!
~Peace~
minstrelmike - Posted - 02/24/2009: 12:46:11
If it's a tenor banjo, they are usually tuned in 5ths like a viola or mandolin.
They are mostly played with flatpicks, but can be played other ways.
However, if you want to learn bluegrass banjo with rolls, you really need a 5-string banjo, otherwise you might as well use regular guitar-picking styles and just find a chord chart and play thru fake books.
You can play any songs you want on any banjo, but if you want that bluegrass banjo sound, you need a 5-string with the short chanterelle on top.
Mike Moxcey
Fort Collins, Colorado, USA
moxcey.net
hippie_cune - Posted - 02/24/2009: 12:50:03
Thanks!
i guess ive already been doing all i can :P
~Peace~
NYCJazz - Posted - 02/24/2009: 12:58:05
You'll have no prob picking up tenor
Get a chord chart & learn the inversions. One nice thing about tenor is that it's tuned in fifths, so each string has the same relationship to the next string. You can move chord forms across the fingerboard. Up one string is a fifth. Down is a fourth
Some people tune tenor to the 4 highest pitch strings of a guitar to avoid learning the new chord forms.
Two of the best tenor players are Buddy Wachter & Eddy Davis.
Do a search for either of them on YouTube.
I know Buddy has a series of lessons available.
My teacher, Cynthia Sayer plays plectrum, but most of her students are tenor players. She has a few students that she teaches online via Skype.
Always glad to see another tenor player out there!
"There is more to life than simply increasing its speed."
- Mohandas K. Gandhi
billmill22 - Posted - 02/24/2009: 14:15:57
Visit my website banjoseen.com and click on the "Index" page. and there you will find lots for the Tenor banjo. Chord charts, inversions with audio files, and other stuff. Good luck with your tenor banjo.
Bill
banjoseen.com
"Where there is a Tub-A-Phone banjo,
there you will find Musical Happiness"
Compass56 - Posted - 02/24/2009: 17:56:19
Alright! Another foot soldier in the tenor banjo army!
bobbyk - Posted - 02/24/2009: 19:01:34
I also really like Gerry o'connor for celtic four string. Though I admit i am a five strong player
BobK
Tom Banjo - Posted - 02/24/2009: 20:52:54
Have you considered Chicago tuning since you already know guitar?
Mirek Patek - Posted - 02/25/2009: 02:35:24
quote:
Originally posted by hippie_cune
so im not new to music, nor fingerpicking.
ive played guitar for 4 years now and am a music major in college.
I see you are perfectly armed for exploring some new paths, e.g. fingerpicking the tenor banjo tuned to open tuning DGdg.
Mirek
-------------------------------------------------
youtube.com/user/mirekpatekgeocities.com/patekstylebanjoI like
metronomeonline.com/
hippie_cune - Posted - 02/25/2009: 09:02:34
Mirek Patek - thast the tuning ive been using.. another buddy (also a guitarist) have been fooling around on it trying to get a "real banjo" sound out of it. :P and thanks! i cant wait til im a year or so down the banjo path :D
Tom Banjo.. no i have not heard of Chicago Tuning? is that like the bottom 4 guitar strings?
thanks alot NYCJazz!! ill be sure to look up all of those players!
BillMill22 Thanks a ton!
Thanks to everyone! ill be taking any and all advice yall give.. so keep it coming ;) ;)
~Peace~
Compass56 - Posted - 02/25/2009: 09:33:51
NYC is right about the Skype lessons with Cynthia. I did it. It was unbelievably good.
hippie_cune - Posted - 02/25/2009: 10:09:47
what is skype?
~Peace~
kevinpaul - Posted - 02/25/2009: 10:58:03
I have been learning the banjo for about 5 weeks. I do ok, but when I play with the picks I am sooo bad. Is not using picks a big no no?
DR Kevin P Moore
banjopocolypse - Posted - 02/25/2009: 14:08:51
I had a hard time with the pick in the beginning too. They way you are "supposed" to hold the pick didn't feel right to me. It just took some getting used to though. Also it was hard to hold the pick tight enough that it doesn't slip and slide, but all loose enough to go back and forth on the strings. I'm fine with a pick now even though I'm sure my "technique" could use some fine tuning.
Lately, at night when the house needs to be quiet I've been ditching the pick and going back to strumming and plucking with my fingers like I did at the beginning and there is something to be said for the soft tone you get. Its nice to sing songs quietly and strum with your thumb.
back to the picks though, you might try a thin pick, at least just a few times as a confidence builder. I was told to never use one because they form bad habit but I was sooo bad with a regular pick that I "cheated" and used the thin pick because I was getting frustrated. I forced myself to back to regular though after about a week, and it actually helped a lot. I use .72. dunlop maybe? Its a clear gold plastic one thats my favorite.
Compass56 - Posted - 02/25/2009: 14:36:31
If you want to find your voice on 4-string banjo, you might want to hear the masters of 4-string do their thing. Check out these CD's:
Anything and everything by Cynthia Sayer
Anything and everything by Eddy Davis
Anything and everything by my two favorite Preservation Hall banjoists: Narvin Kimbell and Don Vappie
Harlem Banjo by Elmer Snowden
NYCJazz - Posted - 02/25/2009: 14:36:41
Skype is live webcam.
"There is more to life than simply increasing its speed."
- Mohandas K. Gandhi
mainejohn - Posted - 02/25/2009: 16:15:52
Steve Caddick (banjopa on BHO) offers online tenor lessons, too.
Cheers,
John Coleman
Scarborough, Maine
mainejohn - Posted - 02/25/2009: 16:16:50
quote:
Originally posted by style 6
Get a 5 string
OMG!
Cheers,
John Coleman
Scarborough, Maine
hippie_cune - Posted - 02/25/2009: 18:00:43
Thanks Compass56!! will do!
o ok.. so skype is like a messenger service kinda? but video?
thanks guys!
~Peace~
kevinpaul - Posted - 02/25/2009: 23:34:23
I guess I jumped in at the wrong place. I asked about playing with out
picks. I play a 5 string. I will need to work harder with the picks.
I have tried to do things right always why stop now. Thanke folkes.
kevinpaul
DR Kevin P Moore
kevinpaul - Posted - 02/25/2009: 23:37:34
quote:
Originally posted by banjopocolypse
I had a hard time with the pick in the beginning too. They way you are "supposed" to hold the pick didn't feel right to me. It just took some getting used to though. Also it was hard to hold the pick tight enough that it doesn't slip and slide, but all loose enough to go back and forth on the strings. I'm fine with a pick now even though I'm sure my "technique" could use some fine tuning.
Lately, at night when the house needs to be quiet I've been ditching the pick and going back to strumming and plucking with my fingers like I did at the beginning and there is something to be said for the soft tone you get. Its nice to sing songs quietly and strum with your thumb.
back to the picks though, you might try a thin pick, at least just a few times as a confidence builder. I was told to never use one because they form bad habit but I was sooo bad with a regular pick that I "cheated" and used the thin pick because I was getting frustrated. I forced myself to back to regular though after about a week, and it actually helped a lot. I use .72. dunlop maybe? Its a clear gold plastic one thats my favorite.
DR Kevin P Moore
kevinpaul - Posted - 02/26/2009: 00:05:35
quote:
Originally posted by kevinpaul
quote:
Originally posted by banjopocolypse
I had a hard time with the pick in the beginning too. They way you are "supposed" to hold the pick didn't feel right to me. It just took some getting used to though. Also it was hard to hold the pick tight enough that it doesn't slip and slide, but all loose enough to go back and forth on the strings. I'm fine with a pick now even though I'm sure my "technique" could use some fine tuning.
Lately, at night when the house needs to be quiet I've been ditching the pick and going back to strumming and plucking with my fingers like I did at the beginning and there is something to be said for the soft tone you get. Its nice to sing songs quietly and strum with your thumb.
back to the picks though, you might try a thin pick, at least just a few times as a confidence builder. I was told to never use one because they form bad habit but I was sooo bad with a regular pick that I "cheated" and used the thin pick because I was getting frustrated. I forced myself to back to regular though after about a week, and it actually helped a lot. I use .72. dunlop maybe? Its a clear gold plastic one thats my favorite.
DR Kevin P Moore
DR Kevin P Moore
Compass56 - Posted - 02/26/2009: 05:56:06
Skype is full-out video conferencing. You and your teacher are seeing each other on your respective computer screens during the lessons. I will warn you that Skype is not a very stable thing. There are many dropped calls. Plus, you won't be able to play together because of a slight time delay inherent to Skype. It's stil very useful.
I'm sorry that at first I didn't understand that you were shooting for a fingerpicked-tenor thing. For that, Mirek Patek is the world's foremost authority. For information about fingerpicking a tenor, I'd talk (and mainly listen) to him.
hippie_cune - Posted - 02/26/2009: 06:21:56
hahaha great thanks!!
... so Mirek..
do you offer any online lessons? ...for free? :P
thanks all!
~Peace~
kevinpaul - Posted - 02/26/2009: 10:54:53
Thanks guys, I am good with the flat pick. Rolls with the finger picks get me. Work is needed
DR Kevin P Moore
Mirek Patek - Posted - 02/26/2009: 14:43:31
quote:
Originally posted by hippie_cune
... so Mirek..
do you offer any online lessons? ...for free? :P
What do you want to play?
Just guitar-like bass and chord accompaniment?Then look at the DGdg banjo as two instruments,
DG for bass notes played by Thumbpick (I am sure you know where to find roots and fifths and how to walk between them) and
dg for chords played by fingers, either by Index+Middle fingerpick up-pinch or by Ring finger downbrush or by alternate I and M up-pick.
Melody on bottom strings by fingerpicking?Then play the melody with your Thumbpick and fill in the other notes by Index and Middle fingerpicks. There are various rolls either without syncopation (e.g. TIMI TIMI, TITM TITM etc.) or with syncopation (TIMTIMTI, TITIMTIM etc.)
Melody on bottom strings in frailing way?Then let your Ring fingernail grow a bit and learn the pattern T-RI T-RI.
First start with T-R-T-R- (Thumbpick on first and third beat, Ring fingernail downbrush or downpick on particular string on second and fourth beat).
Later add the Index uppick on the off-beats after Ring finger, to sound more like 5-string with its g drone.
The first objective is to hit the correct string with your Ring finger.
You may occassionally substitute the T-RI T-RI pattern with TITITITI patern.
The second objective is to fill in the off-beats with hammer-ons and pull-offs (you can then omit the Index uppick so it does not clash with these notes).
Melody on treble strings in folk way?You may come up with some pattern derived from the above T-RI T-RI which includes Middle finger uppick on treble strings, where you will pick the melody.
Melody on treble strings in Travis picking?Let your Thumb pick the bass on DG strings and Index and Middle finger pick the syncopated melody lines on dg strings. My important rule of thumb is that the Thumb plays DOUBLE notes in order to keep the root on the first beat and fifth on the third beat. So in G the thumb plays G G D D | G G D D (and not G D G D | G D G D where the speed of bass is doubled).
Single string lines?Then practice the TITM TITM or TMTI TMTI pattern from the very beginning, not the TITI TITI one. For triplets use TIM if the line ascends, and TMI when it descends.
Melodic (Keith) style?Yes, there are tunes which can be played by this "harp" style.
Swing chords?Find the three-note-chord voicings on D-dg or -Gdg strings.
Octaves?Play your melodies on D-d- and -G-g strings simultaneously with left index+middle and ring+little fingers. Right hand plays TI or TM pinches.
Ukulele patterns?Work on your T-RI T-RI frailing pattern, then omit the pause and go for TRI TRI TI or something similar. Include also Middle finger for quick triplets.
Tenor banjo chord-melody style?Support the melody on first string by the chords on lower strings. You may choose the close voicing similar to 5-string banjo sound (e.g. x754 for G chord) or wide voicing similar to tenor banjo sound (e.g. x457). The only difference is that you will play with fingerpicks instead of flatpick.
So - what is your choice?
Mirek
-------------------------------------------------
youtube.com/user/mirekpatekgeocities.com/patekstylebanjoI like
metronomeonline.com/
Edited by - Mirek Patek on 02/26/2009 14:56:12
teebee - Posted - 02/27/2009: 07:07:55
An interesting book is "Bluegrass Banjo Simplified!!" by Wayne Erbsen.
Quote, "Remember that the melody is played on the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th string........."
Start by tuning your tenor like the 1st four strings on a 5-string. Whatever
you learn here will transfer to your new 5-string if you get one.
Wayne pretty much picks the 1st string drone after each melody note.
He includes 20 songs without a 5th string pluck.
You could also play these 20 tunes on your guitar if you retuned the 1st string like a 5-string banjo
happy just to tinker
hippie_cune - Posted - 02/27/2009: 22:33:17
quote:
Originally posted by Mirek Patek
quote:
Originally posted by hippie_cune
... so Mirek..
do you offer any online lessons? ...for free? :P
What do you want to play?
Just guitar-like bass and chord accompaniment?
Then look at the DGdg banjo as two instruments, DG for bass notes played by Thumbpick (I am sure you know where to find roots and fifths and how to walk between them) and dg for chords played by fingers, either by Index+Middle fingerpick up-pinch or by Ring finger downbrush or by alternate I and M up-pick.
Melody on bottom strings by fingerpicking?
Then play the melody with your Thumbpick and fill in the other notes by Index and Middle fingerpicks. There are various rolls either without syncopation (e.g. TIMI TIMI, TITM TITM etc.) or with syncopation (TIMTIMTI, TITIMTIM etc.)
Melody on bottom strings in frailing way?
Then let your Ring fingernail grow a bit and learn the pattern T-RI T-RI.
First start with T-R-T-R- (Thumbpick on first and third beat, Ring fingernail downbrush or downpick on particular string on second and fourth beat).
Later add the Index uppick on the off-beats after Ring finger, to sound more like 5-string with its g drone.
The first objective is to hit the correct string with your Ring finger.
You may occassionally substitute the T-RI T-RI pattern with TITITITI patern.
The second objective is to fill in the off-beats with hammer-ons and pull-offs (you can then omit the Index uppick so it does not clash with these notes).
Melody on treble strings in folk way?
You may come up with some pattern derived from the above T-RI T-RI which includes Middle finger uppick on treble strings, where you will pick the melody.
Melody on treble strings in Travis picking?
Let your Thumb pick the bass on DG strings and Index and Middle finger pick the syncopated melody lines on dg strings. My important rule of thumb is that the Thumb plays DOUBLE notes in order to keep the root on the first beat and fifth on the third beat. So in G the thumb plays G G D D | G G D D (and not G D G D | G D G D where the speed of bass is doubled).
Single string lines?
Then practice the TITM TITM or TMTI TMTI pattern from the very beginning, not the TITI TITI one. For triplets use TIM if the line ascends, and TMI when it descends.
Melodic (Keith) style?
Yes, there are tunes which can be played by this "harp" style.
Swing chords?
Find the three-note-chord voicings on D-dg or -Gdg strings.
Octaves?
Play your melodies on D-d- and -G-g strings simultaneously with left index+middle and ring+little fingers. Right hand plays TI or TM pinches.
Ukulele patterns?
Work on your T-RI T-RI frailing pattern, then omit the pause and go for TRI TRI TI or something similar. Include also Middle finger for quick triplets.
Tenor banjo chord-melody style?
Support the melody on first string by the chords on lower strings. You may choose the close voicing similar to 5-string banjo sound (e.g. x754 for G chord) or wide voicing similar to tenor banjo sound (e.g. x457). The only difference is that you will play with fingerpicks instead of flatpick.
So - what is your choice?
Mirek
all of the above
~Peace~
Mirek Patek - Posted - 03/10/2009: 11:31:01
quote:
Originally posted by Mirek Patek
Just guitar-like bass and chord accompaniment?
Then look at the DGdg banjo as two instruments, DG for bass notes played by Thumbpick (I am sure you know where to find roots and fifths and how to walk between them) and dg for chords played by fingers, either by Index+Middle fingerpick up-pinch or by Ring finger downbrush or by alternate I and M up-pick.
Here is one rhytmic pattern for „bass + treble accompaniment“.
G C D
g------0-0-----0-0|----0-0-----0-0|----2-2-----2-2|-
d----0---0---0---0|--2---2---2---2|--0---0---0---0|-
G--0---0----------|5---5----------|--------2---2--|-
D----------0---0--|--------5---5--|0---0----------|-
|_|_|_| |_|_|_| |_|_|_| |_|_|_| |_|_|_| |_|_|_|
M M M M M M M M M M M M
T I T I T I T I T I T I T I T I T I T I T I T IIt developed from simple TIMI TIMI pattern:
Just TIMI Add 2nd Thumb Double the M
g------0-------0--|----0-------0--|----0-0-----0-0|-
d----0---0---0---0|--0---0---0---0|--0---0---0---0|-
G--0--------------|0---0----------|0---0----------|-
D----------0------|--------0---0--|--------0---0--|-
|_|_|_| |_|_|_| |_|_|_| |_|_|_| |_|_|_| |_|_|_|
M M M M M M M M
T I I T I I T I T I T I T I T I T I T I T II play it with a bit of bounce.
When playing root-five in the bass, double the played notes (root-root-five-five). Later try some walking bass figures.
Mirek
-------------------------------------------------
youtube.com/user/mirekpatekgeocities.com/patekstylebanjoI like
metronomeonline.com/
Mirek Patek - Posted - 03/14/2009: 04:51:42
quote:
Originally posted by Mirek Patek
Just guitar-like bass and chord accompaniment?
Then look at the DGdg banjo as two instruments, DG for bass notes played by Thumbpick (I am sure you know where to find roots and fifths and how to walk between them) and dg for chords played by fingers, either by Index+Middle fingerpick up-pinch or by Ring finger downbrush or by alternate I and M up-pick.
I have placed three videos on Youtube about this topic:
Basic backup on fingerpicked DGdg tenor banjo
youtube.com/watch?v=qt3cP0zGXfEBackup with TIMI and TI(TM)I roll on DGdg tenor banjo
youtube.com/watch?v=tloLku5q4-YBackup by Thumb + Ring fingernail on DGdg tenor banjo
youtube.com/watch?v=1YJJkrDFuwoThe third video touches the subject of ukulele syncopation too.
Mirek
-------------------------------------------------
youtube.com/user/mirekpatekgeocities.com/patekstylebanjoI like
metronomeonline.com/
Edited by - Mirek Patek on 03/14/2009 09:57:06
Mirek Patek - Posted - 03/22/2009: 01:05:30
quote:
Originally posted by Mirek Patek
Here is one rhytmic pattern for „bass + treble accompaniment“.
By mixing the four-note-long brick T I(TM)(IM) and two-note-short brick T(IM) you can switch between accenting back beats and front beats:
long brick short brick
Middle finger on g--------x-x--------x--------
Index finger on d------x---x--------x--------
Thumb on D/G--X---X--------X----------
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
g--------x-x-----x-x|--x-----x-x----|x-x-----x-x----|x-x---x-----x-x|
d------x---x---x---x|--x---x---x---x|--x---x---x---x|--x---x---x---x|
D/G--X---X---X---X--|X---X---X---X--|X---X---X---X--|X---X---X---X--|I would play always two notes per thumb string (notes G G D D, D D A A etc. and not G D G D, D A D A etc.) in order to match the speed of root-five exchange by doublebass or guitar (which is G - D - , D - A - ).
Mirek
-------------------------------------------------
youtube.com/user/mirekpatekgeocities.com/patekstylebanjo
Edited by - Mirek Patek on 03/22/2009 01:23:36
1fiddle2play - Posted - 03/25/2009: 13:02:34
Try the DGBE open G tuning for playing bluegrass and oldtime music...You can roll it also and use a flatpick to still get a tenor sound...
Mirek Patek - Posted - 02/09/2010: 09:49:54
Any progress, hippie cune?
Mirek
