nohio - Posted - 10/03/2008:  08:57:05

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I've been following this interesting discussion about modern performances of music from 19th-century banjo tutors: http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/t...IC_ID=127152. Someone raised the question about whether we have any recordings of 19th-century banjo players available. Well known players like Macon, Ward, and Lowe were mentioned who either learned in 19th-century or had close ties to performers of the time. Since that thread is already getting unwieldy, I thought I'd start a new one about this very interesting topic.

Although I can't say I know much about him, Uncle John Scruggs is purported to be an African American banjoist who was born a slave and spent his life as a sharecropper. He was recorded in 1929 by Fox Movietone News. The clip is available from the USC Moviefilm library here: http://qtstream.deis.sc.edu/newsfil...uggs-ref.mov (quicktime file). It also appears on the video compilation "Times Ain't What They Used to Be" (http://www.yazoorecords.com/512.htm). This video apparently is more complete than the one from USC and has been placed on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TgIeaGzeLQ.

It's a fascinating clip for many reasons. First, his playing is great. There are some close-ups and it looks like a single-string clawhammer style with the thumb never leaving the 5th-string. The song is "The Little Old Log Cabin in the Lane," an 1871 composition for the minstrel stage. Seems like it entered the folk music stream before reappearing in the early 1920s on hillbilly records. In fact, by 1929, Scruggs would have had almost a decade to hear it on record, so it isn't clear where he learned his version. The other interesting thing about the video is the staging: a literal "old log cabin," chickens in the yard, and the children dancing. Impossible to know how much was set up by the film crew to establish the "authentic" setting.

Maybe this clip is well known, but it interested me when I stumbled across it (it is apparently available on a Document Records Field Recording album (No. 9)). I'll pick it up from the library to see if there is anything else in the liner notes. Not sure that such snippets can really "prove" anything about what the early minstrel sound was like or if clawhammer developed separately, but it is a rare glimpse of what is likely a 19th-century folk banjo style.

janolov - Posted - 10/03/2008:  12:27:49

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I think there were several different 19th century folk banjo styles. One style was probably clawhammer as played by the white people, mostly in the mountain and rural areas. Another was the banjo traditions carried on by the Afro-Americans. I think there are a lot of indications that the balck musicians have had their own development of the old African music tradions. We also have the minstrel music, which in pricipal is i big joke with the Afro-Americans. The minstrel music seems to "exterminated" in the late 19th century, and had developed into the more parlor classic music. I think John Scruggs is a good example of the black banjo tradition, but I am not sure he is representative for the white banjo music.

Jan-Olov

Bill Rogers - Posted - 10/03/2008:  12:48:23

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And he was playing the sort of mid-low end banjo you'd expect of a working person--it's a Gretsch spunover openback best I can tell.

Bill

banjo bill-e - Posted - 10/03/2008:  13:29:26

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I don't think that film crew had to do any staging at all. Looks like the real deal to me. Cool clip, thanks.

------------------
Bill

I''m trying for that "ragged, but right" sound. I''m half way there!

M-D - Posted - 10/03/2008:  13:35:49

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The culture of the South was a collaboration between the Blacks and Whites. It would be difficult to imagine it without both participants. The major deviations arose from those who sought to parody certain aspects, performing what they thought it to be, rather than what it was.

Trying to draw a fine line between what is a very blurred scenario produces a desired result, perhaps, but is not indicative of the reality of that scenario. People everywhere do things their own way, even within a given context. There was no Black way, per se, nor a White way, per se, only those who played their way, whatever that was. Along come others who incorporate something they like, regardless of racial origin, and here we've embarked upon another interpretation that perpetuates it. And, to add to it, there were regional differences within the greater context, and yet outside influences also crept into this.

So, it's not so much of a Black OR White thing, as it is a people thing, both Black and White.

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M-D

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 10/03/2008:  14:01:26

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I am unwilling to get into an arguement about when clawhammer and stroke seperated as I think there is little point to it. But I think I can safely say that what we think of as frailing or clawhammer was absolutely settled and common in the southern mountains before the beginning of the 20th century.

There is one simple proof of this - no one ever interviewed by folk scholars ever mentioned anything about a "new" banjo style arriving in his area. While there are some referenced to the arrival of the guitar, there is no single reference to the arrival of the banjo -- and the only referenceds to "new" styles have to do with Scruggs picking and a couple other similar 3 finger techniques.

If the frailed style had swept across the mountains after the turn of the 20th century (and probably a good deal before too) there would be plenty of stories about "My gran pap buildin' one of them thar banjos and learning this here hot new rappin - frammin - flailing - whamming - whatever style that had just arrived from way over the mountain"


If you are interested in what I say and would like to know more, it ony cost the price of an email. Write me at:
oldwoodchuckb@yahoo.com
and I will send you a copy of the entire Rocket Science Banjo with all the text now in PDF, plus all the exercise tabs and jpgs as well as "25 tunes" (which is now up to about 38) in banjo tab, playable with the MIDI built into your computer, so you can play along at whatever speed you choose to set.
put RSB in the subject line.
I neither keep nor re-use your email

You can watch the videos for some Rocket Science Banjo subjects starting here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdRuf4X0X7g
Banjo Brad is hosting How To Mold A Mighty Pinky adn other material at
http://home.thegrid.net/~fjbrad/id20.html

nohio - Posted - 10/03/2008:  14:47:26

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I didn't note this in the original post, but it is indicated that the clip was filmed in Richmond, VA, pretty far from the mountains, but of course it's impossible to know where Scruggs was from.

I have to say, I'm hard pressed to find any element in his playing that I would immediately identify it as "White" or "Black." I find such ambiguities pretty interesting. To me the performance feels "ironic:" a former slave singing a song written by a white musician in dialect expressing nostalgia for the plantation (filmed by a white film crew for (probably) a white audience). I suspect this irony is my own projection and that in the mixed up world of minstrelry, people of all backgrounds enjoyed the music and certainly even the 1930s, it was still alive and well.

deuceswilde - Posted - 10/03/2008:  16:18:50

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O.K. This might get us there. This it what I have found incorporating brushes. From the Stewart Journal April & May 1892

Not exactly the standard CH movement. It does play nicely. If you remove the 2nd from last 8th notes from each measure, and change the last notes to the 5th string E it almost works. It is a stretch, but not completely out if question I don't know how this compares to the other regional styles I am not familiar with.

-Joel

Success always comes to those who have the money to buy it.

-The Adventures of a Banjo Player, 1884 p.26

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Edited by - deuceswilde on 10/03/2008 16:19:33

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 10/03/2008:  17:29:44

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I think our modern tendency is to define, categoize, compartmentalize, etc., etc.
Today, we have minstrel, old-time, Bluegrass, This style CH, that style CH, etc.
We often tend to stick with one genre and stay away from other music that does
fit, more for authenticity/credibility purposes than anything. In the 19th C. or even
early 20th C. there would have been no debate about
what came first, what was authentic, which style was purer, etc. Those arguments
are for those who came after the fact and from outside the tradition. Like I once said; "We
spend lots of time trying to be like the old-timers, but they were just being themselves."
I'm sure if we could go back to 1860, we'd be treated to a big pot of musical stew- it was
probably more about music than definitions......but then those players were playing their own music,
not trying to reconstruct someone else's.

I think that it would be obvious that the folk banjo tradition that spawned the minstrel style did continue,
and continued along its own path(s), and may be the ancestor of CH rather than the minstrel style, but things
are not that cut and dried. There are plenty of minstrel tunes that found their way into the CH tradition so evidence
of cross-fertilization is present. I also think that different regional CH traditions may have different sources: There may have
been some areas where traveling minstrel troupes initiated a local banjo tradition where none existed previously.

The sure thing is that none of this is cut and dried. I am very interested in all of this, but I can't help thinking
that if a banjo player from 1870 could hear us, he'd chuckle. It reminds me of trying to reconstruct your family
tree from old records because your parents didn't know anything about their parents.

It would seem though that CH has been a continuous tradition, while the minstrel style
ceased because it was essentially period pop music that fell out of popularity well over a century ago. Clawhammer,
though it may have reached a low point never ceased as a living tradition, and I think that the modern minstrel revival
is due in large part to clawhammer players.

R.D. Lunceford- "Missourian in Exile"
Model 1865 Bowlin Fretless Banjo
****************************************************
"Drink from the Musselfork once, and you''ll
always come back." -Dr. Bondurant Hughes, 1917

deuceswilde - Posted - 10/03/2008:  20:08:13

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I agree, and now I am just trying to help. I have no problem admitting that I am convinced. The example I posted seemed clawhammery, so I was a bit happy to find it.

-Joel

Success always comes to those who have the money to buy it.

-The Adventures of a Banjo Player, 1884 p.26

Bill Rogers - Posted - 10/03/2008:  21:32:21

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We also have to remember that the nature of "tradition" has changed. We do have an active 5-string banjo tradition today. It offers change and continuity simultaneously, as did the banjo tradition of the 19th century. Remember that traditional players such as Tommy Jarrell were always modifying the tunes and playing styles they had learned or observed from others. When we do the same thing we are not destroying tradition, but operating within it. It is no more or less legitimate than the re-enactors and preservationists who try to present their music (and musical acts) as if they were a "frozen section" from a moment in the past. Both are worthwhile musical endeavors and we should continue to do both, without spending inordinate time trying to define what's "authentic" and what's not.

Bill

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 10/03/2008:  23:10:59

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Bill:
Lot's of good points and truth in what you say.
I agree with your last sentence, but talking, discussing, and
even arguing are what we do here. Would that we could
just get together and play instead! BTW Bill, I've been
grateful for your views and friendship on the BHO over
the past few years. Thanks much.

Joel:
Your contributions to this and to the "How can We Know..."
thread have IMO been invaluable. I think this has been one of the
most interesting few days I can recall on the BHO.

R.D. Lunceford- "Missourian in Exile"
Model 1865 Bowlin Fretless Banjo
****************************************************
"Drink from the Musselfork once, and you''ll
always come back." -Dr. Bondurant Hughes, 1917

janolov - Posted - 10/04/2008:  00:00:26

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quote:

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Originally posted by deuceswilde

O.K. This might get us there. This it what I have found incorporating brushes. From the Stewart Journal April & May 1892

Not exactly the standard CH movement. It does play nicely. If you remove the 2nd from last 8th notes from each measure, and change the last notes to the 5th string E it almost works. It is a stretch, but not completely out if question I don't know how this compares to the other regional styles I am not familiar with.

-Joel

Success always comes to those who have the money to buy it.

-The Adventures of a Banjo Player, 1884 p.26

---

Isn't this just a serie of Galax Licks with four-string rolls?


Jan-Olov

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Edited by - janolov on 10/04/2008 00:01:59

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 10/04/2008:  09:51:24

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quote:

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Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

I am unwilling to get into an arguement about when clawhammer and stroke seperated as I think there is little point to it.

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I am thinking that they never separated at all because they've always been separate traditions that merely have a common ancestor. Nothing exists in a vacuum, and the minstrel phenomenon may have had some influence on the traditional style which is best evidenced by the inclusion of a number of minstrel tunes in the old-time repertoire.

Your points concerning indications of the existence of CH in the 19th C. are very logical and well made.

Whether or not there is a point to all of this, it is still fun to discuss!

R.D. Lunceford- "Missourian in Exile"
Model 1865 Bowlin Fretless Banjo
****************************************************
"Drink from the Musselfork once, and you''ll
always come back." -Dr. Bondurant Hughes, 1917

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Edited by - R.D. Lunceford on 10/04/2008 09:53:56

Bone - Posted - 10/04/2008:  20:03:35

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This is great stuff!

I guess there is no proof that clawhammer (as we know it today) existed prior to 1900. We will probably never have "proof", but it seems to me that there is overwhelming evidence that elements of the technique go back hundreds of years (or more!) We see this in the African Akonting and other 2, 3 and 4 string instruments more primitive, but very similar to the banjo of today.

I hear (and see) stylistic commonalities between an African Gringot, Dink Roberts and Tommy Jarrell to name a few.

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 10/05/2008:  01:50:29

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HI Pete;

Great to see you joining the discussion. I think you may be right, and your observation about Roberts and Jarrell is well taken.

The closest I can come to proof is something I posted on the "How Can We Be Sure..." thread over on the Clawhammer Playing Advice forum,
but I think it probably belongs over here:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by deuceswilde

I would like to ask the same. Is there any contemporary documentation that would show that modern clawhammer with its adherence to the "bum-dity," was used before 1900?

So... how can we know for sure that clawhammer was played by 19th century Banjoists?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Joel, that is a very good and very logical question. There is no excuse for the vague answers and negative reactions you report having received.

First some general documentation:

Wade Ward learned his CH style from his brother Crockett who was born in 1872. Assuming the likely possibility that Crockett had learned to play prior to his 28th birthday, that would mean that *he* was playing CH in the 19th C.

Similarly, assuming that Charlie Lowe (1878-1964), the archetypal Round Peak Banjo-player who taught Tommy Jarrel was playing prior to his 22nd birthday, he too would have been playing CH prior to 1900.

We might reasonably assume that both Charlie Lowe and Crockett Ward learned their playing from players of the preceding generation which would take the CH style even further back into the 1800's.
It is often theorized that clawhammer developed out of the minstrel style. This is possible, yet I think it is also possible that it ran concurrently with the minstrel style, or possibly even pre-dated it.
Minstrel banjo is known to have derived from the playing of early black players. While the minstrels took the banjo in one direction, this earlier folk banjo tradition no doubt continued and may have been similar to clawhammer, or developed into it at an early date and independent of the minstrel tradition.


Now for a bit of personal documentation:

My Dad was born in 1914 in Chariton County, Missouri. I learned the basics of my CH style from him. Though he did not call it clawhammer, it is what we call clawhammer today. He mentioned to me two older players from his locale that by his description of their playing would also be considered clawhammerers in today's parlance:

One was Morg Howard. I don't have a birthday for Morg, but I do know when his daughter Mary was born, and based on that and the timeframe my Dad knew him, I would reckon his birthdate between 1864 and 1874. Even the later date would make it likely he was playing before 1900.

The other player was J.T. Cooley who was born in 1842 and passed-away in 1934. My Dad said he recalled hearing J.T. sing "Down Among the Budded Roses". He would have been quite old by the time my Dad came along, so while it is possible that my Dad did hear him play the banjo, it is also possible that my Dad's knowledge of his playing came from the description of an older friend or relative. J.T. was known for playing at the local dances also. If J.T. took up the banjo in his teens, than he would have been playing in the 1850's!!!

-R.D. Lunceford




R.D. Lunceford- "Missourian in Exile"
Model 1865 Bowlin Fretless Banjo
****************************************************
"Drink from the Musselfork once, and you''ll
always come back." -Dr. Bondurant Hughes, 1917

trapdoor2 - Posted - 10/05/2008:  10:21:28

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quote:

---

Originally posted by R.D. Lunceford

IIt would seem though that CH has been a continuous tradition, while the minstrel style
ceased because it was essentially period pop music that fell out of popularity well over a century ago. Clawhammer,
though it may have reached a low point never ceased as a living tradition, and I think that the modern minstrel revival
is due in large part to clawhammer players.

---

We're very lucky that we have a written record of the Stroke style, aren't we? If the aural tradition of CH had somehow been cut...the style would have ceased to exist. We'd have to 're-create' with no documentation to prove it ever existed...and then argue how 'real' our re-creation is and who really invented what. Sorta reminds me of how many looked at Scruggs style (or melodic style) in the 70's; that it had been invented out of thin air. I believe that the movements are 'natural' and that eventually they evolve into something useful...which sticks around. I know, I know, this is in the line of those infinte monkeys typing Shakespeare...damn I hate infinite monkeys, flying ones too.

Still, a human isn't a monkey. We can hear and feel what sounds 'right' and respond to it. If our buddy plays a lick we identify as 'cool', we incorporate it. That's generated more than one stylistic branch to the banjo tree, eh?

Prior to the advent of cheap, widespread communications, most players worked in a vacuum. We have been able to identify many tunes by locality (ie, that's a North Alabama tune, etc.) and even if the tune is widespread, it was often localized by style. Huge leaps in communications have led us down the homogenous trail these days and I'm afraid we're losing much of that local flavor. I know of at least a few who refuse to listen to modern recordings to keep their percieved tradition alive.

I'm rambling, sorry about that.

For me, the Stroke Style vs Clawhammer style is a "chicken and egg" debate. Evolution happens and finding the exact point of divergence isn't on my 'to do' list.

BTW, the Clawhammer players who are helping revive the Stroke Style are indeed due a pat on the back. However, don't forget the Classic folks...they have been in the background collecting and studying this stuff since the 1950's. In the 1970's Joe Ayers became fascinated with the earliest history of the banjo and evenutally published reprints of the early tutors we have today (Tuckahoe Publishing). Much of what we know came from the collected memoirs of Classic-era players who cut their teeth playing in Minstrel Shows...alongside stroke-style players of the early era.

===Marc

"If banjos needed tone rings, S.S. Stewart would have made them that way."

janolov - Posted - 10/05/2008:  11:37:11

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Bone


I guess there is no proof that clawhammer (as we know it today) existed prior to 1900. We will probably never have "proof", but it seems to me that there is overwhelming evidence that elements of the technique go back hundreds of years (or more!) We see this in the African Akonting and other 2, 3 and 4 string instruments more primitive, but very similar to the banjo of today.

I hear (and see) stylistic commonalities between an African Gringot, Dink Roberts and Tommy Jarrell to name a few.

---

I think that the minstrel tutors is a proof that clawhammer existed around 1850!. Several of the tunes in Briggs Banjo Instructor from 1856 is more or less clawhammer, some tunes has some extra "minstrel licks" but the basics is clawhammer.

Jan-Olov

brokenstrings - Posted - 10/05/2008:  18:45:12

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Someone suggested that clawhammer might even predate minstrel style. I don't see how this can be unless you are supposing that Joel Walker Sweeney was not the only one to take up the banjo from the folks on the plantation?

Jessy

Frailaway, ladies, frailaway!

janolov - Posted - 10/06/2008:  00:51:28

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The banjer was played by the Afro Americans long before Sweeney. I think Thomas Jefferson has mentioned the "banjer" back int the end of the 18th century. That banjer was probably four-stringed with a drone string and without bass string. The Africans played a down-stroke style (I have read that there were up-picking styles too). I think Joel Sweeney may have developed the modern 5 string banjo, but it is not sure that Sweeney and the following minstrels were the only sources for banjo music. It can have been a parallell development with Sweeney type banjos played by first Afro Americans and later also white people.

Jan-Olov

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 10/06/2008:  01:53:43

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quote:

---

Originally posted by trapdoor2
We're very lucky that we have a written record of the Stroke style, aren't we? If the aural tradition of CH had somehow been cut...the style would have ceased to exist.

---

I agree 100%.

Fortunately, there is currently a ton of written examples of CH playing, but God forbid that one day that tradition would have to be recreated from the written music alone. *We who know that music personally* know how much of it can't be written into the tab!

R.D. Lunceford- "Missourian in Exile"
Model 1865 Bowlin Fretless Banjo
****************************************************
"Drink from the Musselfork once, and you''ll
always come back." -Dr. Bondurant Hughes, 1917

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 10/06/2008:  03:04:46

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quote:

---

Originally posted by brokenstrings
Someone suggested that clawhammer might even predate minstrel style. I don't see how this can be unless you are supposing that Joel Walker Sweeney was not the only one to take up the banjo from the folks on the plantation?

---

I can't believe that Sweeny was the only one! How likely would it be that he was the only white man to be beguiled by the banjo?
Of course, Sweeney was involved in minstrelsy, but originally, he was just a banjo player who had learned traditional banjo playing in the traditional way.

Furthermore, the existence of the clawhammer tradition shouldn't be dated from its adoption by white musicians, so Sweeny's involvement would be irrelevant. Perhaps the original CH players were black, and CH is the natural continuation of the African-American style that precipitated the minstrel (or stroke) style.

In the conclusion of "African Banjo Echoes In Appalachia", author Cecelia Conway writes:

"The ancestors of southern blacks and whites who have continued to play the banjo had strong musical traditions... they remained more conservative and subtle than the popular and commercial entertainers that the minstrels became."

This certainly seems to imply a separate banjo tradition partaken of by both black and white musicians, and the word "remained" would seem to indicate that it was the minstrels who deviated from the continuing original source tradition.

R.D. Lunceford- "Missourian in Exile"
Model 1865 Bowlin Fretless Banjo
****************************************************
"Drink from the Musselfork once, and you''ll
always come back." -Dr. Bondurant Hughes, 1917

trapdoor2 - Posted - 10/07/2008:  16:34:03

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quote:

---

Originally posted by R.D. Lunceford

I can't believe that Sweeny was the only one! How likely would it be that he was the only white man to be beguiled by the banjo?
Of course, Sweeney was involved in minstrelsy, but originally, he was just a banjo player who had learned traditional banjo playing in the traditional way.

---

If you read the old minstrel's memoirs, they uniformly agree that Sweeney was "first". I've read at least one reference which stated that Sweeney wasn't a very good banjo player but a good entertainer. In the 1850's, virtually every performer claimed to have learned his craft from Sweeney (heck, James Buckley spent years on the road being billed as "The Young Sweeney"). If that bit of marketing didn't work, they could always claim some "old Slave" taught 'em. This sort of marketing worked great for Presidential campaigns as well "...born in a log cabin" was good for lots of votes, well into the 20th cent.

quote:

---

In the conclusion of "African Banjo Echoes In Appalachia", author Cecelia Conway writes:

"The ancestors of southern blacks and whites who have continued to play the banjo had strong musical traditions... they remained more conservative and subtle than the popular and commercial entertainers that the minstrels became."

This certainly seems to imply a separate banjo tradition partaken of by both black and white musicians, and the word "remained" would seem to indicate that it was the minstrels who deviated from the continuing original source tradition.

---

Well, to me it implies only that the author could not find sufficient documentation and therefore, absent any evidence either way, her theory must be true.

I'm not really disagreeing with her though. We have many hidden traditions, undocumented virtuosos, etc, etc., which may very well lay uncovered until the next Alan Lomax lurches into town with his hovertruck and nanorecorder. Sweeney may not have been the only white guy with a banjo, but he was the first one we have any record of. Without evidence to the contrary, who will believe any other claim? Nobody's found anyone else to fill the shoes...and just because it seems a bit "out there" doesn't mean it isn't true.

===Marc

"If banjos needed tone rings, S.S. Stewart would have made them that way."

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 10/08/2008:  02:05:14

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quote:

---

Originally posted by R.D. Lunceford
Furthermore, the existence of the clawhammer tradition shouldn't be dated from its adoption by white musicians, so Sweeny's involvement would be irrelevant. Perhaps the original CH players were black, and CH is the natural continuation of the African-American style that precipitated the minstrel (or stroke) style.

---

Actually, the above quote was the more pertinent part of my post.

I'll be the first one to admit this is all conjecture, and that Sweeny is the first documented white musician to take up the banjo. The historical record is the historical record, but it is not always reliable, or all inclusive.

Furthermore, Conway also mentions a rather mysterious figure named Ferguson, a white banjo-player from which Dan Emmett learned the banjo, so not everyone learned from Sweeney. Billy Whitlock, another of the very first white banjo-players owed his playing more to black musicians than to Sweeney, even though he had a couple of lessons from him.

Conway states in her conluding chapter that whites in the southern mountains had been influenced to take up the banjo by blacks a couple of decades before the Civil War (1840 more or less), and long before the influence of minstrelsy in their areas. This points to a separate and long-standing banjo tradition that is at least as old as minstrel playing- and likely older



R.D. Lunceford- "Missourian in Exile"
Model 1865 Bowlin Fretless Banjo
****************************************************
"Drink from the Musselfork once, and you''ll
always come back." -Dr. Bondurant Hughes, 1917

trapdoor2 - Posted - 10/08/2008:  07:51:46

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by R.D. Lunceford

Furthermore, Conway also mentions a rather mysterious figure named Ferguson, a white banjo-player from which Dan Emmett learned the banjo, so not everyone learned from Sweeney. Billy Whitlock, another of the very first white banjo-players owed his playing more to black musicians than to Sweeney, even though he had a couple of lessons from him.

---

Ferguson was "found" by Lowell Schreyer in a New Orleans mortuary record book. Evidently "Ferguson" died in 1841. If Emmett did indeed learn from him, it was quite early on. People are funny...Sweeney was both loved and hated by other players, as evidenced by the first Minstrel "world tour" breaking up while in England (1843). I guess my point was that while, yup, I'm happy with the possibility there were multiple genesis points for white players' adoption of the banjo...Sweeney gets top billing when we start talking about documentation.

quote:

---

Conway states in her conluding chapter that whites in the southern mountains had been influenced to take up the banjo by blacks a couple of decades before the Civil War (1840 more or less), and long before the influence of minstrelsy in their areas. This points to a separate and long-standing banjo tradition that is at least as old as minstrel playing- and likely older.

---

I don't think I was arguing that point. I'm happy with the banjo having found its way into white culture prior to the Minstrel craze...and that it may have happened as early as the 17th cent. in the Carribean or even in Africa when the Dutch established the slave trade. White traders documented proto-banjos from quite early on...and if they drew them and collected them, perhaps they learned to play them. Unfortunately, we have nothing but speculation to hold on to.

===Marc

"If banjos needed tone rings, S.S. Stewart would have made them that way."