hemack - Posted - 07/23/2008:  18:52:10

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Many Thanks to you, Prof & banjoken. I truly appreciate your words of wisdom and will try to absorb this under the 'dome doily'.

banjoken - Posted - 07/23/2008:  18:58:05

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Hi hemack, I think it is great that you are getting into the banjo. Is this a new interest or one you have had for a while? What style of banjo are you getting into? Answer here, or perhaps start a new one introducing yourself to the whole community!

eagleisland - Posted - 07/24/2008:  04:15:12

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Thanks, Ron - that explanation made a lot of sense.

The way AKUS plays that song is a real study for me. Simple song. Simple melody. But you guys get a vibe going in it that that just plain makes a listener feel good - and that whole thing, IMO, boils down to absolutely flawless timing.

It's a real honor to have you sharing your insights here.

eagleisland

"I was halfway to Old Kentucky when the drugs began to kick in." - Hunter S. Monroe

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Edited by - eagleisland on 07/24/2008 04:17:04

hemack - Posted - 07/24/2008:  07:35:50

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banjoken wrote:

"Hi hemack, I think it is great that you are getting into the banjo. Is this a new interest or one you have had for a while? What style of banjo are you getting into? Answer here, or perhaps start a new one introducing yourself to the whole community!"

Don't mean to bore you or ruin this thread but to answer.....here goes.......

Absolutely no musical ability, don't know one note from another, can't carry a tune even in a bucket. Lost my wife of 30 years to cancer and almost went crazy. Thanks to the Good Lord He knew I couldn't hack it by myself so somehow He brought a young widow whose husband of 25 years also died of cancer into the picture and we've just celebrated 31 years of marriage (between us there are 9 children, 23 grandchildren and 13 great-grandhsildren).

This lady's first husband was a country musician, as are some of her children, and so there was a five string banjo in his estate which I had admired. The wife gave it to her oldest grandson as a birthday present. And life goes on! For my 82 birthday she surprised me an open-back 5-stringer which I have been playing with now for over a year. Thanks to the Internet and sights such as this I've learned to tune the thing (and am learning a little theory) and make a little noise which the wife says "sounds good". These 'arthur' fingers don't want to cooperate but I'm having a fun time anyhow. THANKS for all the HELP I've gotten from you fellows..........Mack

banjoken - Posted - 07/25/2008:  19:04:30

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Hi hemack. Thanks for posting your history! Interesting background. Keep on playing and posting.

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Edited by - banjoken on 07/25/2008 19:06:10

Rich Weill - Posted - 07/25/2008:  23:02:40

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quote:

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Originally posted by cthetford

TAB is broken into measures that start with the downbeat. My teacher actually teaches all licks and songs in phrases that beginning on the "and" before the downbeat. For me, this really helps me to feel the proper timing (now playing it reliably is a completely different thing!).

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That's really an excellent suggestion. One of the more difficult aspects of playing with bounce is making the proper transition between one measure and the next. There's the tiniest extra pause after the 7th note of the roll, and then the 8th note leads very quickly into the 1st note of the next roll (the downbeat). I also found that starting on that quick note right before the downbeat is a good way to practice playing that rhythm correctly.

grinning_muppet - Posted - 07/26/2008:  08:18:41

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"But in spots I jump the gun on the 4 because it feels good." - ron block

thank you. this is how i feel about bounce and timing. you have to feel it, there is no other way. metronome practice is essential to get your fingers precise, but to bounce and syncopate well, IMO, you cant be thinking about delaying notes in this and that measure, etc... its a feel, a swing that comes from a tradition of feeling it in that way. to describe it in technical terms cant convey something like bouce sufficiently, i think.
it takes a lot of listening and absorbing different styles of music...the lilt of irish music, the bob wills, duke ellington, django, even the funk...the funk shares some common origens with the bluegrass.

that element that is in bill keith's playing and the "dillard roll" or whatever... thats it!

all things in moderation, including metronome use... i like the syncopated/galloping metronome way better than the click click click click.
playing with people with good timing is the best way to get better timing!

pstroud1 - Posted - 07/26/2008:  08:47:26

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I looked up the definition of syncopation to clarify, and it means to "displace the beats or accents in (music or a rhythm) so that strong beats become weak and vice versa : syncopated dance music."
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This is almost exactly the definition of syncopation that was given to me by banjoholic over at the banjo lounge one day long ago. I think he's from the bristol, VA area. In my case the accents.
I'm a by the ear player and tab is scrambled up in my mind. I can see it but cant follow it with a banjo in my hands.
He indicated that as you go around on a roll you can emphasize it differently at times. He said to do it real slow at first and it will become natural later on.
Interesting thread, thanks

Paul
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Mark 15:38
And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from top to bottom.

Happy2ride - Posted - 07/27/2008:  09:09:27

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I agree! I am brand new at the banjo but I played drums for 22 years and it is amazing how much that experience has benefitted me.
However, I have never owned a metronome, and still don't. I believe, like any God given talent, you are born with a great sense of rhythm and you either develop it or not.
Like the drums, the banjo is the driving backbone everyone feeds off of.
Timing is something you have when you play by yourself, drive is what you need to play with others.

quote:

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Originally posted by pauwac

Good timing is what will make other musicians want to play with you. There's nothing more frustrating than playing with someone who doesn't have it.

Pauwac

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Life is Hard...Misery is Optional

Hap

Rich Weill - Posted - 07/27/2008:  09:38:58

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quote:

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Originally posted by Happy2ride

Like the drums, the banjo is the driving backbone everyone feeds off of.

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Actually, in bluegrass, that function is served primarily by the bass.

DaveInCA - Posted - 07/27/2008:  15:02:56

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Bluegrass rhythm is analogous, in a temporal way, to graph paper (http://lepmfi.gsfc.nasa.gov/mfi/lep...ph-paper.gif)--the major divisions are provided by the bass and the guitar/mando chop, and the fine divisions are provided by the banjo roll.

Dave

Sandy Rothman - Posted - 07/27/2008:  16:58:30

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quote:

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Actually, in bluegrass, that function is served primarily by the bass.

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Listen to the 25 tracks recorded between 9/16/46 and 10/28/47 by Bill Monroe, Lester Flatt, Earl Scruggs, Chubby Wise, and Howard Watts. Howard (bass player) does not (continually) play an alternating-note bass style as later became identified with bluegrass (for better or worse; that's subjective). In the '46-7 band, the rhythmic pulse created by these five superlative musicians playing in total empathy or group-mind is itself a "driving backbone": a product of ultimate symbiosis. It's possible to tease the elements apart, but to me one of the best things we can do is revisit these recordings (say, every few years) and let their sublime, essential qualities go deeply inside.

Jason West - Posted - 08/12/2008:  22:18:36

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Contrary to what many find, I think working with a metronome will make you LESS static or rigid. BUT, I vary my practice speeds greatly..mostly VERY SLOW.

I'll start out at 50-60 BPM, focusing on the bounce, lilt, drive or whatever you call it..... and on accentuating the melody notes. I focus on the spaces between the notes, the tension that builds, tone and letting the fretted notes ring as long as possible.

The biggest benefit that metronome use gives me is that is makes me a much better listener. It takes a lot of work for me to separate hearing the notes that I am playing from the music I am making, if that makes sense.

this is a great topic!

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Edited by - Jason West on 08/12/2008 22:18:55

wrightedward - Posted - 11/29/2008:  14:18:11

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Sandy glad to see you chime in here ,,you never fail to bring something good to the picnic ,thanks
Eddie
Phillippians 4:13

mdgodaat - Posted - 11/30/2008:  04:07:37

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Metronomes and drum machines are good teaching tools and strongly recommended as well.

A good electronic keyboard with programmable rhythm is also a good tool. Not only do you get the metronome / drum machine but you can also [more advanced boards] add some (Chord background) accompaniment as well. More advanced boards let you program a run of accompaniment and/or whole songs to play along with.

You can pick up a small one with drum machine and metronome features for as little as $20. Hey, if it works ?! Go for it. More expensive ones get into the hundreds. You can get a full feature one between one and three hundred dollars if you want to. Suggest Yamaha or Casio. I was playing organ before I picked up banjo so I'm kind of biased

Timing, rhythm and rolls.

TIM, IMT, TMI, TITM, TM, and ths list goes on. If it sounds good, do it !

picometer - Posted - 12/19/2008:  16:50:55

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Syncopation is technically the tying of notes across the bar line. You can also say that a syncoption is a note that starts before and ends after a beat.

rowdy13 - Posted - 12/19/2008:  18:51:01

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Now I know what its like to be in a room full of nuclear physicists! First thing I'm gonna do is get my dictionary out, and then take some music lessons!

"It''s not a banjo, it''s a MANjo"

granderman - Posted - 12/20/2008:  04:02:47

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I am in Ron Blocks camp about the drum machine also having been one of Pete Wernicks students. We would start the day out with drum machine exercises and you could only imagine the joy for us when 12 banjos became one at 138 bpm., at 9am in the morning! At first i hated it, thinking what a waste of time i came here to learn those great Wernick licks. Of course in the after we got the famed lick dump, like drinking out a fire hose. But the drum machine became my buddy , i bought one of from ebay just like Pete's simple to use hooked up to my bass amp in the mancave and we worked on to develop timing. I had heard players talk of a pocket of sound , i never experience it until i began to use a drum machine in my daily study of my banjo .Jens Kruger taught me that you can speed up and slow down in a song as long as the pocket of sound is as One

Then on the subject of Ron Block ,two of the most meaning full post i have read came from Ron . I believe we on this hang out are blessed to have him as a member ! His post on Effortless Mastery has made me a much better player thank you Ron . I stood within 10 feet of Ron this year waiting to thank him for all the good things that came from that book but he had cart full of instruments and a least 5 people came up and talked with him while I waited , I finally figured give the man some peace, so here you go Ron thank you so much for all the music your DVD is excellent every player should give it a look. You are kind a good man as well as an awesome musician

"for those of you who think you hold the cards , I send to you my kind regards
For those of you who love and care I''ll see you down the road somewhere "
SteelDrivers

www.4everBlue.net www.nucraftdental.com
aloha T

Chris Cooper - Posted - 01/02/2009:  13:10:36

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I always try to play with a metronome, there are so many good free online metronomes there is really no excuse. Poor timing, and mistakes with timing i.e dropping off the beat, are the sole reason for some pickers sounding ok, some sounding good and some blowing your mind, i truely belive that.

Happy Pickin'

mdgodaat - Posted - 01/03/2009:  06:39:52

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I wholeheartedly agree with all of the posts regarding timing. Just one tidbit to add, not only a metronome or drum machine is good but I use an electrionic keyboard with drum machine and accompaniment built in. Tha accompaniment gives good backup and helps with timing of also'hitting the right note at the right time'. However when trying to brush up on roll timing I just use the drum part for rhythm.
It's fun to program songs into and play along with as well is good for 'looping' and playing continuosly through those 'harder' parts you're trying to learn.

Bluegrass in my blood. Now, if I can only get it to my fingers ?