mralston - Posted - 01/14/2008:  17:09:40

Two questions for collectors who may know about "Bay State" banjos:

1. I recently bought a John C. Haynes "Bay State" 5-string banjo on eBay. The eBay pictures led me to expect that the neck was cracked and would require repair. However, when I got the banjo I found that the peghead was very neatly grafted onto the neck. This was done so neatly, and the graft doesn't follow the grain or lead me to think that this was done as a repair, so I'm wondering if anyone knows if Bay State (or any other early banjos) deliberately used this construction technique, perhaps to give the appearance of a backstrap ? Pictures below.

2. The fingerboard inlays are essentially identical to the fingerboard inlays on my Gatcomb Standard banjo. Haynes scale length = 25 0/8 in., Gatcomb scale length = 26 2/8 in. Both Haynes and Gatcomb were in Boston .... does anyone know of a link between the two companies ??





Mark Ralston

A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here............................................... Uncle Dave Macon

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 01/15/2008:  00:19:38

I saw quite a few Bay States when I worked in Boston, but I don't recall any with grafts like that. I can't think of a rational reason why it would be build like that in that era. Many currently made banjo have grafted headstocks - the famed Good Times has a sawtooth joint an inch below the peghead. I think what you are seeing is actualy a split that happened to follow a very straight grain. The end of the joint doesn't look clean and the finish has aged differently - as if the neck might have spent quite a while in two pieces.

On the inlays - Every Gatcomb I've ever recall seeing - and that is not very many - was built by Fairbanks. The Bay States, as I remember them, were quite different looking and also "newer" -- but it all gets kind of fuzzy after a while. I would suspect that if they were farmed out it would have been to Vega - they simply were not old enough to be Fairbanks. I'm sure there are collectors who would know more about it, but your Haynes looks older than any I can recall.
There never were anywhere near as many banjo builders as there were banjo brands back then - actually it is the same way now. So I would be inclined to think that almost any banjo company with a Boston address had at least some relationship to Fairbanks and/or Vega - according to era. Of course I can immediately recall an exception -- every Dobson I've ever seen that came from "Boston" was actually made by Buckbee.

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mralston - Posted - 01/15/2008:  07:01:15

Tony - thanks for the comments. The banjo is probably fairly old, if you assume that the peghead, neck, and dowel are all original. The only visible numbering is "325"..... don't know whether this is a model # or serial #. No # on rim.



The wear/aging that you note is pretty much confined to the bottom of the join behind the 3rd to 5th fret..... peghead has very similar patina (?... aging ?) to the rest of the neck. Here's the peghead:



Here are the fingerboards for the Haynes (left) and Gatcomb (middle). Picture on right is of the backstrap on the Gatcomb, which led me to suspect that the Haynes might be an intentional graft to give a backstrap appearance.



If you're interested, I posted more pictures of these banjos on my website; http://www.yellowstone-jewelry.com/...0Gallery.htm


Mark Ralston

A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here............................................... Uncle Dave Macon

dbrooks - Posted - 01/15/2008:  09:13:46

Mark,

I have two Bay State banjos. The Model 300 A scale is a bottom-of-the-line banjo with a 10" pot and 24" scale. It has a new fretboard, head and tailpiece, but most of the rest of it is original or period. My Model 318 is fancier with an 11" pot, 25" scale, pretty inlay, and Jos. Rogers skin head. I believe it's all original. I have pictures on my homepage here.

I have collected quite a few pictures of Bay State banjos off the web because there is not a lot of information about them and their models show less consistency than S.S. Stewart, Fairbanks and others. I don't have these pics on a web site, however.

Some Bay State banjos have backstraps but they look quite different than your. I agree with Woodchuck that yours looks like a repair. The inlays and head stock shape don't seem very typical, but again there is little consistency in Bay State banjos that I have seen.

The 325 is a higher model in the product line. Bill's Banjos web page shows a 325 and 354 (very ornate).

John C. Haynes had a close relationship with Ditson. The details are fuzzy right now, but he may have managed a branch of Ditson and then went out on his own (or the other way around). The Haynes company produced a wide range of musical instruments: guitars, flutes, etc. The company existed pretty much only in the 1890s.

I am very happy with my two Bay State banjos. They are my main players. I hope you get yours in playing shape as well.

David

mralston - Posted - 01/15/2008:  09:32:37

David - Thanks for the input. It's beginning to sound as though mine may be a "Frankenbanjo", put together from one or more banjos. All the same, it's in very good mechanical shape, the pot & neck are very well-made, and I'm looking forward to putting it back into playing shape.

Mark Ralston

A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here............................................... Uncle Dave Macon

krazykat - Posted - 01/15/2008:  10:22:30

Hey there Mark,
I also have a Bay State model banjo - mine's a "324" which is the "lady's size" version of yours. Here's the interesting thing: mine has the exact same inlays on the fingerboard. You can see them in photos on my homepage (scroll down to the bottom). But your peghead is totally different - looks to me like it was grafted on from a different banjo. My Bay State does have a backstrap, but it's a standard one - just decorative, definitely not all the way through like yours.
Anyway, my Bay State is a cute old banjo - I need to do a bit of work on it (the pot's pulled out of round, and it could use a new nut), but it's really pretty and has a nice tone with lots of "cluck."
Best of luck with yours!
Cheers,
Anne.

trapdoor2 - Posted - 01/15/2008:  13:45:02

I had crafted a post earlier but got sidetracked...

The grafted headstock looks like it came from a Weymann banjo, not a Haynes.

It's ALIIIIIVVVVEEE!

===Marc

"If banjos needed tone rings, S.S. Stewart would have made them that way."

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 01/16/2008:  00:23:28

The graft could have very well been intentional - as someone said: a matter of putting a preferred peghead on a preferred neck or perhaps on a neck that has been damaged. The thing though is, that the grain above the connection looks like a match for that below - at least in the first set of pictures. And it does seem to come within a hares breath of the position of that Gatcomb backstrap in the second set.
I wish my eyesight was better - to say nothing of my "Haynes" knowledge - or my "Ditson" knowledge - or my Gatcomb knowledge for that matter.
Any possibility there was a backstrap that failed under pressure and was removed? I have never seen a banjo with a backstrap separation, but given enough humidity I think anything is possible.

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mralston - Posted - 01/16/2008:  05:19:07

Hi Woodchuck -

The pictures don't do a good job showing the graft area so I'll try to describe it. The join extends from the base of the nut (cut starts precisely at the base of the nut recess on both sides of the nut recess) to the center of the neck behind the 5th fret, and is extremely regular and symmetrical, i.e., looks as though it was finely cut & the two cut surfaces were carefully mated.

The finish is blemished in a small, confined area behind the 5th fret above the skinny end of the join, rest of finish is unmarred except by age. The finish @ the join gives no visible indication of having been disturbed by cutting, so either a) the work was done by someone very good w/ finishing, or b) the work was done on unfinished wood (i.e., during manufacture). The finish is also evenly aged on the peghead & neck, so the work appears to have been done some time ago. A few more pictures of the banjo on my Yellowstone Jewelry website.

DBrooks has some images of Bay State banjos on his BHO homepage.... the peghead of one of them looks similar to my peghead, so my peghead could be original. Trapdoor says that the peghead also looks like a Weymann.... I agree..... can't rule out an inter-banjo graft. I also regret calling this banjo a "frankenbanjo".... better description would be "possibly diverse lineage".

I'm slowly working on a Washburn Improved 5100 banjo that I bought on eBay..... has quite a bit of dyed, laminated wood, including a 5-piece backstrap that definately came apart. My ~ 1894 Cole Eclipse also had a separated backstrap when I got it. I really don't think that the Bay State work was in response to a failed backstrap, because the peghead and neck were definately in separate pieces before they were joined...... backstrap is definately not just an extension of wood ply on back of peghead like most backstraps.

Thanks for your 2 cents worth. I'm new to the BHO, and had gotten the impression that BHO is mostly oriented towards bluegrass..... I'm a dyed-in-the-wool old timey person, and it's nice to know that there are some knowlegeable, old-timey banjo lovers who regularly participate in the BHO forums, too.

Mark Ralston

A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here............................................... Uncle Dave Macon

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 01/16/2008:  20:01:09

A lot of us old-timey people around - we just sort of get lost in the mob of scruggsers.

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You can watch the videos for some Rocket Science Banjo subjects starting here:
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mralston - Posted - 01/17/2008:  07:26:08

Thanks very much to BHO member Philly (Phil from PA) who sent me these pix of another Bay State banjo with peghead grafting.





Mark Ralston

A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here............................................... Uncle Dave Macon

dbrooks - Posted - 01/17/2008:  09:06:11

Mark, the peg head shape of Philly's Bay State is different from other Bay States I have seen. But there is just a ton of variation in these shapes. The shape of my Model 300 is the most consistent (a squarish peg head with a scroll-shape top).

Interestingly, the tuners on Philly's banjo look identical to the ones on my 318. These are old friction tuners. John Balch thought they looked original.

Just to restate, I am more of a curious amateur about these banjos than an expert.

David

philly - Posted - 01/17/2008:  16:05:42

That particular banjo is a Bay State #315. I do not own it but was considering purchasing it about 4 years ago when it was for sale at a music store in NH called The Vintage Fret Shop. I thought it was unusual that the peghead had 2 splices and thought it was repaired so I decided against it.

Phil in Chambersburg, PA

Edited by - philly on 01/18/2008 09:47:52

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 01/17/2008:  19:47:25

That is getting really weird. I wish I knew more about Bay State. I think that settles the original question. No doubt it was a factory graft that failed. It would be great if someone could find some bit of Haynes advertising with some sort of stated reason for doing it.
None of the pictures of any of these banjos show the heels. I would now assume they were built up from blocks like many modern banjos.



I'm seeking Dick "Dix" Freeman's banjo recordings to complete my collection - I have plenty of material to trade
Rocket Science Banjo, Chapters 1 - 4.1 REVISED is ready now
oldwoodchuckb@yahoo.com
You can watch the videos for some Rocket Science Banjo subjects starting here:
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mralston - Posted - 01/17/2008:  20:56:43

I wonder if there was a perceived economy in making the peghead separate from the neck....... get more necks per piece of wood? For example, if the widest part of neck piece is the heel, then you might be able to cut more pieces by staggering the blanks..... crude sketches below........ I've never built a banjo neck, so this might be pretty far-fetched.




Mark Ralston

A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here ............................................... Uncle Dave Macon

krazykat - Posted - 01/17/2008:  22:43:12

Good question about the economics of banjo building, but I have to wonder if wood supply was even an issue in the late 19th century. And given that good banjo-building wood wouldn't have been so hard to come by then, it would be odd to try to save money by grafting layers of wood on the neck of a banjo that was otherwise very high-quality, with nice inlays and so on. Hard to say without a Bay State historian!

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 01/17/2008:  22:59:59

In the 60s we were making 12 strings with pegheads long enough to accomodate 6 Grover rotos per side. The neck blanks were all one piece (actually 5 since they were laminated lengthwise). We made both maple, and mahagony necks, occasionally other woods. We never even considered making a banjo neck with glued on "ears".
We had no idea that the supply of wood was ever going to run low. In fact I don't think I ever knew of a builder who gave it a thought until that wood supplier in New Hampshire burned down. Even then a lot of guys just thought the problems was temporary.
I would have to admire a company that was trying to preserve tone wood in the 19th century but it certainly was not an issue at that time. I have to think that there was a percieved strength advantage.

I'm seeking Dick "Dix" Freeman's banjo recordings to complete my collection - I have plenty of material to trade
Rocket Science Banjo, Chapters 1 - 4.1 REVISED is ready now
oldwoodchuckb@yahoo.com
You can watch the videos for some Rocket Science Banjo subjects starting here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdRuf4X0X7g

mralston - Posted - 01/18/2008:  06:29:56

Kat & Woodchuck - thanks for setting me straight. On a personal note, my other passionate avocation is lapidary & silverworking...... I've developed a fairly frugal mind-set when doing design & layout on precious metal stock..... sounds like this isn't as much of an issue w/ luthiery.

Kat - you mentioned a "Bay State Historian"...... maybe this thread will stay alive long enough for a Bay State Historian to clarify! ! ! ! One of my favorite quotes about science and expertise....."There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact" (Mark Twain, Life on the Mississippi)

Mark Ralston

A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here ............................................... Uncle Dave Macon

krazykat - Posted - 01/18/2008:  11:17:21

I think it's probably the way of the future, using laminates for necks. You can get some very nice effects with multiple kinds of wood, and it's a plus for strength.

Mark Twain is the Man when it comes to fantastic quotes. He also said (and you'll see this around on the hangout from time to time):
"The piano may do for love-sick girls who lace themselves to skeletons, and lunch on chalk, pickles, and slate pencils. But give me the banjo. When you want genuine music — music that will come right home to you like a bad quarter, suffuse your system like strychnine whisky, go right through you like Brandreth’s pills, ramify your whole constitution like the measles, and break out on your hide like the pin-feather pimples on a picked goose — when you want all this, just smash your piano, and invoke the glory-beaming banjo!" (“Enthusiastic Eloquence,” San Francisco Dramatic Chronicle, June 23, 1865.)

Then again, he also said something along the lines of "A gentleman is someone who knows how to play the banjo, and doesn't."

Enjoy your banjo!

dbrooks - Posted - 01/18/2008:  19:49:54

Mark (mralston),

Since I got my first Bay State Model 300, I have been collecting pictures from the web when I come across any. I'd like to put them on a single web site at some point. I do have a bunch zipped up into a file, if you're interested.

Send me an email through the Hangout so I get your email address, and I'll send the Zip file to you.

David