doneill - Posted - 04/14/2007:  19:31:19

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I'm having trouble pushing melodic fiddle tunes to speeds that I've encounter in jams. I'd like to hold on to that bounce at the same time though. Is this do-able or do you generally lose the bounce once your speed gets past some point. The tunes I'm thinking of are Red Haired Boy, St. Anne's Reel, Whiskey Before Breakfast, etc. Roanoke is also one. It seems the only way to play at the typical speed is the give up the bounce and play staight and fast.

Cheers!
Dan

gottasmilealot - Posted - 04/14/2007:  19:57:23

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I think some tunes at jams are just played too fast to enjoy them. Red Haired Boy and Whiskey Before Breakfast come to mind a s being played too fast many times. What you point out is a good example. I'd rather play slower with more bounce than fast and furious, with some exceptions, but that's just me.

Keith

Larry Paul - Posted - 04/14/2007:  20:38:34

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Red Haired Boy and Devils Dream both sound good with a bounce but the faster you push 'em the more it begins to go away. Both sound good Up tempo with a bounce, just dont play it "too fast" ( "fast" being relative to experience)

Texasbanjo - Posted - 04/15/2007:  08:47:53

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I agree: don't play the songs too fast. If your jam group does, try starting off the song yourself at a slower pace and see if it doesn't sound better.

I was in a jam with a group of kids -- 12 to 17 -- once and they played everything at warp speed -- so fast you couldn't hear the notes, just a blur. That, to me, wasn't music, it was just "showing off". Got out of that jam fairly quickly -- I was an "old lady" and just "too slow" for the kids (G).

Let's Pick!
Texas Banjo

doneill - Posted - 04/15/2007:  09:24:10

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Thanks for the replies. I guess I should just search around for some professional banjo examples of the tunes I'm thinking of and go from there. Anyone have a particular version in mind of these songs that strikes them as just right?

Cheers!
Dan

Don Borchelt - Posted - 04/15/2007:  09:42:31

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I would suggest searching the web first. Type in the name of the tune in quotes and type MP3, and you will usually get all kinds of hits. Most will be of no use, but usually buried in the bunch will be something worthwhile. A lot of times, when someone is selling a CD, they will give a one or two minute sample of the tune, often just enough to learn it. For example, a Google search on "Devil's Dream" MP3 coughed up this link of Vivian Williams and others playing the tune on a CD called Fiddle Tunes of the Lewis and Clark Era. This recording may actually be a touch too slow, but Williams is a revered western fiddler, so I don't think I will argue.

http://www.mp3-extension.com/track/1240667

Here's another one, from an Irish group called Bow Tripletts, from a CD called Never Too Early, more the tempo I'm used to. Fast, but not breakneck.

http://www.soundclick.com/store/dig...albumID=4178

- Don Borchelt



"Well, I know there's a lotta big preachers that know a lot more than I do
But it could be that the good Lord likes a little pickin' too."

- Tom T. Hall, from The Year That Clayton Delaney Died

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Edited by - Don Borchelt on 04/15/2007 09:51:35

Rachel Streich - Posted - 04/15/2007:  20:05:43

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quote:

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Originally posted by doneill

I'm having trouble pushing melodic fiddle tunes to speeds that I've encounter in jams. I'd like to hold on to that bounce at the same time though. Is this do-able or do you generally lose the bounce once your speed gets past some point. The tunes I'm thinking of are Red Haired Boy, St. Anne's Reel, Whiskey Before Breakfast, etc. Roanoke is also one. It seems the only way to play at the typical speed is the give up the bounce and play staight and fast.

Cheers!
Dan

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As an old-time fiddler myself, I've noticed that its easier -- and very natural-feeling -- to put 'bounce' or 'swing' into tunes at slower tempos, but that as you speed them up, the timing of the eighth notes gets straighter and you lose the bounce.

As for "typical speed" -- keep in mind that most traditional fiddle tunes - including the ones you mentioned like Red Haired Boy, St Anne's Reel, Whiskey Before Breakfast, and so forth - were/are meant to be danced to. If your playing is too fast to dance to (whether it be square dancing, contra dancing, clogging, whatever) -- you're playing too fast, period (IMO).

No offense meant but my main complaint against bluegrass musicians, in general, is that insistence on playing fiddle tunes too darn fast -- you lose all of the sublety, beauty, and emotional content of the melody, and for what? Just to show that you can wiggle your fingers really fast on your instrument? Big deal. I'm not impressed. <yawn>.

Rachel Streich

What?: c 1920 Weymann 5-string openback
How Long?: Since 1989
Venues: Mostly jamming, willing to teach
Style: Old-time clawhammer
Other: Fiddle, guitar, some mandolin, vocals
Working On: "Garfield's Blackberry Blossom"
Dream Banjo: I'll know it when I see it

pdtek - Posted - 04/15/2007:  22:17:15

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Regardless of whether you are playing melodic or Scruggs, as the speed increases, the ability to play synchopated or "with bounce" becomes more difficult. As you approach FMB tempo, it becomes impossible. It would also be safe to say that melodic in general is more difficult to play fast.




Dave B

doneill - Posted - 04/16/2007:  06:42:53

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So I ought to learn to play these tunes straight and fast as well because while I may think such-and-such song is perfect at this tempo, someone at some point is likely to kick it off fast and I'd like to be able to do more than just vamp my butt off. I would also agree, melodic is pretty difficult to play fast at this point. Scruggs picking patterns have such a nice flow to them.

Cheers!
Dan

Don Borchelt - Posted - 04/16/2007:  09:42:15

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Rachel wrote: "No offense meant but my main complaint against bluegrass musicians, in general, is that insistence on playing fiddle tunes too darn fast -- you lose all of the sublety, beauty, and emotional content of the melody, and for what? Just to show that you can wiggle your fingers really fast on your instrument? Big deal. I'm not impressed. <yawn>"

As a picker with a foot in both camps, I would completely agree with you. The source of this tradition of exhibitionism is Monroe himself, whose early instrumental recordings were nothing short of frenetic. Later in his career he really mellowed out, and his Uncle Pen instrumental album that came out in 1972, with both Rual Yarborough and Bobby Thompson on banjo, and Kenny Baker, Buddy Spicher, Tommy Williams and Red Hayes on fiddles, was very relaxed and musical. That may be why it was damned with faint praise at the time by a lot of bluegrass critics. I thought it was the best instrumental album he ever put out. Heel and Toe Polka, one of the tunes on the record, is now a classic. It was followed in 1976 by the Weary Traveler album, which had the first recording of Jerusalem Ridge on it, another classic that was played at a very relaxed tempo. That album underwelmed the critics, too, and a few bluegrass folks even grumbled that Monroe had "lost his edge." In the end, I think most of the current professional bluegrass bands recording today have followed Monroe's lead, and play tunes at a more reasonable, musical tempo. But it is still the Monroe play it lighting fast sound from the fifties and sixties that still dominates late night festival jam sessions. Even if you could keep up, why would you want to? Sometimes the best thing to do is put the banjo down.

- Don Borchelt



"Well, I know there's a lotta big preachers that know a lot more than I do
But it could be that the good Lord likes a little pickin' too."

- Tom T. Hall, from The Year That Clayton Delaney Died

Feo - Posted - 04/17/2007:  12:32:31

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quote:

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No offense meant but my main complaint against bluegrass musicians, in general, is that insistence on playing fiddle tunes too darn fast -- you lose all of the sublety, beauty, and emotional content of the melody, and for what? Just to show that you can wiggle your fingers really fast on your instrument? Big deal. I'm not impressed. <yawn>.

Rachel Streich

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Rachel, you keep talking like that and you won't be allowed on the front porch of Albert Hall no more !

Hey, you forgot to add that the B.G. players also play the fiddle tunes in the wrong keys,
just to appease the G-tuned banjo player ...

Rachel, how fast are we going to play tonite ?
I hope these other players aren't Alvin and the chipmunks ..

Joe Larson - Posted - 04/17/2007:  14:36:20

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I think that Red Haired Boy, St. Anne's Reel, and Whiskey Before Breakfast are generally played at a moderate speed in my neck of the woods (by the way, what is a 'neck' in a woods context?).That is, as Rachel said, danceable. As for Roanoke, I believe that tune was meant to be played at breakneck speed. Bill Keith said the thing was so fast there's just no room to stretch out.

j

doneill - Posted - 04/17/2007:  17:23:52

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So what then is a "moderate danceable speed" for the mentioned filddle songs?

Cheers!
Dan

Joe Larson - Posted - 04/17/2007:  17:48:58

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I don't know, somewhere around 120 to 130 or so.
j

rendesvous1840 - Posted - 04/17/2007:  18:05:46

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I'm agree with Rachel's comments. Part of the problem is not enough people do the old dances any more. In many cases, you can't understand the music without understanding the dance steps. I recently was seated at a table with The Anonomous String Band at a period dinner dance. I asked about that very subject, figuring they were the ones to ask, and they agreed. One member pointed out that without seeing mazurka's danced, you couldn't grasp why the rythem is played as it is. Once you see it, it's clear.I haven't seen any mazurka's yet, so that's still unclear. But the point is made. Another member talked about how the fashions invogue had an effect on the dances of the period. If a ladies hands were occupied with moves necessary to the dance, she couldn't hold her skirt clear of her feet.In some periods, ladies held their skirt up with one hand. So wearing a hoop skirt would not be conducive to some dances. Colonial dances may be difficult in Cicil War era clothing. Men's fashions may not have been as much of an issue.
Bluegrass has evolved away from dancing, and become more a musician's showcase. Hand in hand with this, is the fact that many BG groups write a lot of their own songs. It wouldn't make a lot of sense to write songs to dance obsolete dance steps to, so the songs display the talents of the musicians. As Pete Seeger said, 'Some folks can't stand it; some live only for it. ' Or pretty close to that, anyway.
The Anonomopus String Band stays to tempo's that allow the dancers to perform the steps. They work with a caller, teaching the dances as they play. I don't dance, bad knees, but I think an understanding of both spectrums is fundamental to understanding either the songs, the dances, or the culture that gave rise to the art forms.
www.anonomousstringband.com
Paul



"As I see it, every newborn should be issued a banjo." .....Linus

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Edited by - rendesvous1840 on 04/17/2007 18:09:43

doneill - Posted - 04/17/2007:  22:37:44

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quote:

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I don't know, somewhere around 120 to 130 or so.

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Well, assuming you mean 2 beats per measure, there's the trouble. I've been at this for just over 1.5 yrs. now and my scruggs playing can get to around 130 to 140 or so but no way for melodic. I just went to a jam tonight and encountered these songs again, Devil's Dream, WBB, St. Anne's, etc. and couldn't keep up. I guess I'll keep inching the metronome up but until then I just get to chord along.

Cheers!
Dan

Joe Larson - Posted - 04/18/2007:  09:22:21

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It takes a long time to get to the point where you can play the melodic stuff up to speed. And 1.5 years really isn't very long. It's great that you can play those tunes at any speed after such a short time.

One of the problems and probably the biggest when you're still just learning them, is that if you make a mistake in a fiddle tune, the whole thing falls apart, you almost have to wait for it to come around again. A lot of guitar players and bass players are counting on the lead instrument for the changes and so if you drop out the whole group stops playing.

j

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 04/18/2007:  11:56:17

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I think it is possible to keep the bounce at high speed, but it is harder. In the melodic style, the banjo tends to pick every single note. If you listen to the fiddle though, it will often do slurs and slides, mixing up the phrasing instead of playing every eighth note. It may mean that you pick one note instead of 2 or 3, but you can learn to use phrasing to get the bounce back. Better if it's the right speed to start with though...

Rachel Streich - Posted - 04/18/2007:  12:39:36

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quote:

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Originally posted by Joe Larson

One of the problems and probably the biggest when you're still just learning them, is that if you make a mistake in a fiddle tune, the whole thing falls apart, you almost have to wait for it to come around again. A lot of guitar players and bass players are counting on the lead instrument for the changes and so if you drop out the whole group stops playing.

j

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One of the key skills to learn on the way to becoming a good musician is the ability to recover from mistakes, spontaneously incorporate them into your solo, and play through them WITHOUT STOPPING so that the whole thing doesn't fall apart. If you're playing a melodic break that you learned by rote from tab, via muscle memory, the slightest mistake is apt to throw you off. But if you know the melody "by heart" and have learned it by ear, its a lot easier, I think, to recover from mistakes, because you're thinking of the melody as a coherent whole and not simply as a series of memorized right-and left hand finger movements.

just my $.02...

doneill - Posted - 04/18/2007:  17:18:35

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quote:

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ne of the key skills to learn on the way to becoming a good musician is the ability to recover from mistakes, spontaneously incorporate them into your solo, and play through them WITHOUT STOPPING so that the whole thing doesn't fall apart. If you're playing a melodic break that you learned by rote from tab, via muscle memory, the slightest mistake is apt to throw you off. But if you know the melody "by heart" and have learned it by ear, its a lot easier, I think, to recover from mistakes, because you're thinking of the melody as a coherent whole and not simply as a series of memorized right-and left hand finger movements.

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I can definitely relate to this. There are some songs that I know well enough to recover from and some that are more of a series of hand movements ingrained in memory and I have a harder time dealing with mistakes. I try to work on it but I guess it just takes time.

Cheers!
Dan

Joe Larson - Posted - 04/18/2007:  19:19:52

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quote:

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One of the key skills to learn on the way to becoming a good musician is the ability to recover from mistakes, spontaneously incorporate them into your solo, and play through them WITHOUT STOPPING so that the whole thing doesn't fall apart. If you're playing a melodic break that you learned by rote from tab, via muscle memory, the slightest mistake is apt to throw you off. But if you know the melody "by heart" and have learned it by ear, its a lot easier, I think, to recover from mistakes, because you're thinking of the melody as a coherent whole and not simply as a series of memorized right-and left hand finger movements.

just my $.02...

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True enough. But this is something that I think comes with time. The ability to recover that is. It's not just hitting the right note, it needs to be hit with the correct finger or the next note might not be available. Or the next.

When I was first learning these breaks, it would completely throw me to make a mistake. Being able to pick it up more quickly is definitely a skill that has taken me years to learn.

I once saw the great Courtney Johnson in a jam at a music store in Glasgow Ky. He was taking his 3rd break, a variation way up the neck of some fiddle tune I've forgotten. He totally lost it. But instead of trying to pick it up there, he dropped down to his second break and missed less than 1 measure. Blew my mind.

j

Rachel Streich - Posted - 04/18/2007:  23:51:20

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quote:

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Originally posted by Joe Larson

quote:

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One of the key skills to learn on the way to becoming a good musician is the ability to recover from mistakes, spontaneously incorporate them into your solo, and play through them WITHOUT STOPPING so that the whole thing doesn't fall apart. If you're playing a melodic break that you learned by rote from tab, via muscle memory, the slightest mistake is apt to throw you off. But if you know the melody "by heart" and have learned it by ear, its a lot easier, I think, to recover from mistakes, because you're thinking of the melody as a coherent whole and not simply as a series of memorized right-and left hand finger movements.

just my $.02...

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True enough. But this is something that I think comes with time. The ability to recover that is. It's not just hitting the right note, it needs to be hit with the correct finger or the next note might not be available. Or the next.

j

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True. This is definitely a skill that takes time to develop. But I should have said, its not only a question of knowing the tune in depth; its also a question of knowing your instrument and being at least somewhat comfortable with spontaneously improvising your way out of a mistake. If you hit a wrong note -- or hit the correct note but with the wrong finger -- and find yourself out of position to play the next note(s) in the lick, you need to be able to spontaneously play something else that will fit, to cover the mistake and get you back on track. Depending on how badly you lose it, you may only have to fake your way through a couple of notes -- which most people won't even notice -- or a measure or two -- all the way up to faking your way through the entire rest of the break. The important thing is to keep mental track of where you are in the tune, and KEEP PLAYING -- something, anything, doesn't really matter what as long as you're on the right chord -- and DON"T STOP, no matter what. As I say, its not easy and takes time to develop the ability to do this, but its SO worth it!

Of course (to bring this back to the original topic of this thread) -- recovering from mistakes is a LOT easier if you're playing fiddle tunes at a relatively moderate tempo rather than the breakneck speed frequently encountered in bluegrass jams

Rachel Streich

What?: c 1920 Weymann 5-string openback
How Long?: Since 1989
Venues: Mostly jamming, willing to teach
Style: Old-time clawhammer
Other: Fiddle, guitar, some mandolin, vocals
Working On: "Garfield's Blackberry Blossom"
Dream Banjo: I'll know it when I see it

Joe Larson - Posted - 04/19/2007:  09:07:41

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One thing that's helpful in getting you out of a jam (as in a bind, not a jam session) is your scales. Knowing scales and segments of scales, ascending and descending in groups of 2, 3 and 4 notes and what chords they work with helps me when I get lost. And, yes, it's much easier if the tune is played at a sane speed. But sometimes that's not always possible. I try to work up passable Scruggs style versions for those situations.

So Rachel, I see you play old time clawhammer style. Do you play many fiddle tunes in the melodic style?

j

Rachel Streich - Posted - 04/19/2007:  11:35:08

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quote:

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Originally posted by Joe Larson

So Rachel, I see you play old time clawhammer style. Do you play many fiddle tunes in the melodic style?

j

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Actually, I do play a fairly melodic style, Joe -- Ken Perlman's "Melodic Clawhammer Banjo" book was an important influence on my playing, especially when I first started, although I rarely use tabs anymore. Nowadays, I prefer to learn tunes by ear and work out my own clawhammer versions. But I also play fiddle -- in fact, fiddle is probably my main instrument these days -- and my comments about recovering from mistakes are equally applicable to fiddle as they are to banjo.

Rachel Streich

What?: c 1920 Weymann 5-string openback
How Long?: Since 1989
Venues: Mostly jamming, willing to teach
Style: Old-time clawhammer
Other: Fiddle, guitar, some mandolin, vocals
Working On: "Garfield's Blackberry Blossom"
Dream Banjo: I'll know it when I see it

Joe Larson - Posted - 04/20/2007:  09:33:18

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Rachel,
I don't disagree, a thorough knowledge of the fretboard and of the tune will help get you out of a jam. But as someone who teaches and has played 3-finger melodic style banjo for over 30 years, I can safely say that getting tangled up playing this style is a whole different animal than making a mistake in the Scruggs or Clawhammer style. And for a beginner in this style it can be daunting and discouraging to take a new fiddle tune to a jam and then find that one mistake brings you to a halt in a way that it never would were you playing in a Scruggs format.

j

beegee - Posted - 04/20/2007:  10:01:35

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What is FMB Tempo? I think most people have an idea that FMB, as played by Earl, was at some breakneck speed, when actually it isn't all that fast. It has syncopation and drive, but I would say the vast majority of pickers play it way too fast.125 bpm is a good tempo 150 is fast-a-plenty. For Blackberry Blossom, for example, 125 is tad too fast to make it bouncy and pretty. 120 works better.

_________________________________________
usus promptos facit

Grifton NC

Joe Larson - Posted - 04/20/2007:  19:32:10

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I think most of these lightning fast tunes improve with a little drop in velocity (if you could play faster than the speed of sound, could you end a song before you began it?) My friend and fellow band mate found himself fiddlin in a jam with some folks who only played at warp speed. Another guy who happened to be a much better fiddler but who was having trouble keeping up, asked him, "how do you play so fast?" Kelsie says "Easy, I only play half the notes."

"there's more to life than playing the banjo, but not a lot more"

j