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Brooklynbanjoboy - Posted - 01/03/2014: 02:51:35
Good morning, BHO friends. Welcome to 2014.
The year's first TOTW drill, a joint effort by Stefan Curl and Lew Stern, focuses on “Over the Waterfall,” and takes as its starting point a 30 September 2013 Banjo Hangout (BHO) thread initiated by Stefan about playing with Franklin George at the September 2013 Berkeley Old Time Music Convention in California. In that thread, Stefan related that after playing tune “Over The Waterfall,“ Franklin George asked whether Stefan knew there was a third part.
Here’s the 30 September 2013 BHO thread:
banjohangout.org/topic/271374
And here is a Youtube video of Stefan playing the tune with the third part as he recalled Franklin’s rendering of it on the fiddle:
youtube.com/watch?v=OecK3aF1Sgw
Several salient points from that 30 September thread:
➢ Stefan stated that Henry Reed learned the tune from the music of a steam-powered calliope and might have gotten the name from there too.
➢ Franklin George speculated that it was possible Reed just didn't play that third part for some reason: “I think if it was ever played much once, it may have been dropped for dances.”
➢ Don Huber observed that Franklin once said he believed that Henry Reed made this up based on a tune he heard from a calliope at a fair, meaning that it was “not some fiddle tune from the mists of time.”
➢ However, as to the “mists of time” derivation of the tune, Carl Baron noted that there appears to be only two parts to the song from which "Over the Waterfall" was derived, "The Fellow That Looks Like Me" (published in 1866). See: levysheetmusic.mse.jhu.edu/cat...y:052.001
In an early October follow-up discussion by telephone, Franklin George said the third part was added later but he had "no idea" where it came from. He did not remember who added the third part, but he "might" have learned it from Oscar Wright. And Franklin did not know whether Wright got it from another musician or made it up himself, but Franklin was certain that Wright knew the tune with the third part. Franklin said that he had started by learning banjo from his "grand daddy", William Washington George. William Washington was born in 1856. His mother died when he was three years old and shortly after young William, was 'bound out' as a servant and was raised mostly by former slaves who taught him the banjo. When William Washington George was 16 or 17 he put all his possessions on his back and walked 80 or 90 miles to the town that later became Franklin George’s birthplace. When Franklin was little, his grandfather moved in with them. Franklin’s father made him a banjo, and William Washington George showed him how to play it.
*** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** ***
Miles Krassen’s book, Clawhammer Banjo, (Oak, 1974) contains a tab of the tune on page 73. Krassen identifies it as a two part Henry Reed tune. Stephen Wade said (in a 30 September email to Lew) that he and Alan Jabbour recorded the tune on Stephen’s "Dancing in the Parlor" album. He recalled: “We only had two parts, though I remember going up an octave to create variation.”
Alan Jabbour, a fiddler of note who has spent a lifetime studying and playing the tunes of Henry Reed, approached the question of the Third Part in a 9 October email, and agreed to be quoted in this BHO TOTW thread:
BEGIN QUOTE
That's a very nice third strain that Stefan Curl learned from Frank George, and he plays the tune well. I can't help wondering where Frank learned it, since I'm pretty sure he learned the two-strain tune from me. It's from Henry Reed, of course. Henry Reed did sometimes remember additional parts to tunes during repeat visits, but he played the tune on two occasions for me, and they are both two-strain renditions. He died in early 1968, before I moved from North Carolina to California. Frank in later years said he met Henry Reed once, maybe after he heard about him from me. Oscar and Eugene Wright also knew Henry Reed well and could have told Frank about him. They were from Princeton WV, and Frank then lived in Bluefield WV, which is pretty nearby.
Henry Reed's "Chinchbug" tune has a first strain like "Over the Waterfall" except for the fourth phrase, which lacks the "Over the Waterfall" dip in the melody. The second strain sounds like filler -- but it is actually not unlike Stefan's third strain from Frank. Maybe that could account for this third strain. The third strain also sounds a little like the regular strain -- as if it were a different version of the second strain -- except it drops to the lower tonic instead of rising to the octave. But "Chinchbug" does rise to the octave in the truncated (but repeated) second strain. Alright, so there -- I've come up with a couple of intertwined ways of accounting for the third strain. Henry Reed's two renditions of the tune, plus his two renditions of "Chinchbug," can all be heard online at memory.loc.gov/ammem/collections/reed/.
END QUOTE
There are reasons for believing that the Third Part is a variation on the standard Part B. The conventional B Part and the Third Part interact and overlap, and play well over one another so there is symmetry of a sort. It sounds as though it could be a minor/modal version of the conventional B Part, perhaps a detour taken by a clever fiddler.
There are equally valid reasons for looking at the Third Part as distinctly different, and uneasily married to the structure of this tune that the conventional wisdom agrees is a two parter. The Third Part plays differently than the first two parts, requiring the banjo player to switch gears slightly. The trajectory of the Third Part is different than the rest of the tune, though that could simply be an artifact of having played the tune as a two part sound for so long; integrating this Third Part requires some retooling, and the mental gears that carry the tune to an end after the second part don’t necessarily adjust easily to the addition.
After discussing all this, Stefan and Lew agreed: Neither of us are inclined to look for musical, or regional, orthodoxies in the playing of these tunes. We welcome the diversity of forms, and embrace the mystery regarding possible origins of these variations. Nice to have this third part, especially directly from George. In short, we’re both happy to play it as a Third Part to the tune; it works well, and sounds nice. Here’s Bruce Ling fiddling the tune in a lesson that slows the music down a bit, making it easier to understand the high and the low parts.
In short, we’re both happy to play it as a Third Part to the tune; it works well, and sounds nice.
Here’s Bruce Ling fiddling the tune in a lesson that slows the music down a bit, making it easier to understand the high and the low parts.
youtube.com/watch?v=Muf63CccS20
Here’s another anatomy lesson on the fiddle:
youtube.com/watch?v=x7M9SbH06oI
Vi Wickham attacking the tune:
youtube.com/watch?v=CAEQgAzY6Ws
Here’s Ryan Thomson on the banjo and Brennish Thomson on the fiddle at the Newmarket Heritage Festival, September 26, 2009:
youtube.com/watch?v=31Ga0gg1bhA
The lyrics Ryan belts out briefly are probably of his own invention. A close look at the result of a variety of Youtube searches shows the ubiquitous Thomson duo undertaking this tune in a variety of settings. This time, Ryan on bones and Brennish on fiddle:
youtube.com/watch?v=wSBD45Isf6g
Here’s a penny whistle version:
youtube.com/watch?v=ROOzXdJ7SlY
Jim Pankey on banjo for this one, with a real fine hammer dulcimer player, and Roy Curry on guitar – a lot of bounce to this version: youtube.com/watch?v=YeTR1OFwXOs
Once again, here’s Stefan taking a crack at the tune with the Third Part that he learned from Franklin George at the Berkeley gathering:
youtube.com/watch?v=OecK3aF1Sgw
Here’s Lew’s version, incorporating the Third Part, learned from Stefan’s fine video:
youtube.com/watch?v=we6c1hVaj_U
Here is Stefan’s TAB of the tune:
banjohangout.org/tab/browse.as...p;v=19516
Neither of us are prepared to make a ruling on the authenticity or legitimacy of this Third Part. Sounds good, fits nicely. We have it on the credible authority of Franklin George that at some point the tune was played with this Third Part integrated. And we have Alan Jabbour’s note that from time to time Henry Reed would recall an additional part to a tune.
Play hard,
Stefan Curl and Lew Stern
Edited by - Brooklynbanjoboy on 01/03/2014 02:57:51
banjukebox - Posted - 01/03/2014: 04:13:03
Wow, that's quite an extensive documentation of the tune. Appreciate the research you've put into this. It's a great tune-certainly one I'll have to put on my list to learn. Thanks for posting.
Brooklynbanjoboy - Posted - 01/03/2014: 06:15:44
Pat,
You've got such a rollicking style. Can't wait to hear your take on this tune.
V/R,
Lew
janolov - Posted - 01/03/2014: 07:07:27
I just saw this piece of notation on Internet. It is a good illustration:
Brooklynbanjoboy - Posted - 01/03/2014: 07:10:28
Jan,
That's great. But, do you have it in tab?
Lew
ChuckJo - Posted - 01/03/2014: 07:31:41
Nice presentation of a an old chestnut made new. Good job Stefan and Lew. Does anyone have a recording of Frank George's fiddling of Over the Waterfall?
vrteach - Posted - 01/03/2014: 07:44:17
There we go--I've been looking forward to this one. I'll include a recording of our local jam from 2007, just the chestnut 2-part version. I'll have to let them know of the 3rd part!
Really, this doesn't get played enough for my tastes.
Edited by - vrteach on 01/03/2014 07:45:48
sgdesertrat1 - Posted - 01/03/2014: 08:04:02
This sounds like the tune of John Hartford's "Julia Belle Swain". Does anyone know if that was intended on Hartford's part?
Brooklynbanjoboy - Posted - 01/03/2014: 08:04:42
Just a clarifying note that fell out of the TOTW write-up:
Stefan wanted it made clear that In the September 2013 BHO thread he referenced the possibility that Henry Reed derived at least some of the tune from the sound of a steam powered “jalopy” being navigated over a bad road in a heavy rain storm is discussed -- the resulting sound is said to have evoked for him the idea of going over a waterfall...
However, what Franklin George said, based on later clarifying discussions with Stefan, was that Henry Reed derived his inspiration from a “steam-powered calliope.”
V/R,
Lew
Brooklynbanjoboy - Posted - 01/03/2014: 08:10:00
Daniel,
Not sure I hear a connection, but I will always, always take the time to listen to anything John Hartford wrote, sang, played or said:
JanetB - Posted - 01/03/2014: 08:11:55
quote:
Originally posted by ChuckJo Does anyone have a recording of Frank George's fiddling of Over the Waterfall?
My recording of Over the Waterfall comes from a CD called "Frank George and David O'Dell, Reflections of the Past." It only has the two parts and says in the liner notes, "The late Henry Reed, one Mercer County original who survived into the age of recordings, told Frank he had learned Over the Waterfall from a steam calliope in a circus parade."
BanjoJudy recorded Franklin George at the Berkeley convention. Let's ask her.
janolov - Posted - 01/03/2014: 09:00:57
quote:
Originally posted by JanetB
quote:
Originally posted by ChuckJo Does anyone have a recording of Frank George's fiddling of Over the Waterfall?
My recording of Over the Waterfall comes from a CD called "Frank George and David O'Dell, Reflections of the Past."
The CD is available at countysales.com/products.php?p...Past'
slc - Posted - 01/03/2014: 10:00:26
I do have the audio clip of Franklin playing OTW with the third part. I'll post it later when I have a chance.
This was at the Berkeley Oldtime Music Convention, and I remember seeing Banjo Judy around - we had been introduced a year or two earlier but I wasn't in a position to chase her down this year and say hi (so, "hi" :-)). Actually it might have been in the middle of that session with Franklin that I saw Judy walking by...
trapdoor2 - Posted - 01/03/2014: 10:32:45
Looking forward to jamming with both Franklin George and Alan Jabbour at "Breakin' Up Winter" this year. nashvilleoldtime.org/BUW/
2 months away!
I learned OTW by listening to Bill Spence's first "Hammered Dulcimer" album...'bout a thousand times thru.
Edited by - trapdoor2 on 01/03/2014 10:35:32
zac987 - Posted - 01/03/2014: 10:45:50
I've got the two part version with banjo and guitar in the music section of my profile. I think I'll try to work up a three part version this week.
vrteach - Posted - 01/03/2014: 11:40:02
quote:
Originally posted by trapdoor2
I learned OTW by listening to Bill Spence's first "Hammered Dulcimer" album...'bout a thousand times thru.
That's probably where I learned it, too. Or maybe one of the "5 Nights Singing" albums.
slc - Posted - 01/03/2014: 12:17:20
OK, I uploaded a bit of Franklin playing Over the Waterfall (with the third part) at the 2013 BOTMC. It's only a single time through - only at the last minute did it occur to me to record it! This is a jam session in a noisy lobby, which is why the quality suffers. Check it out:
soundcloud.com/stefanc-1/overthewaterfall
Brooklynbanjoboy - Posted - 01/03/2014: 12:26:10
Stefan,
Great to have that. Thanks for finding it.
Lew
BANJOJUDY - Posted - 01/03/2014: 17:48:27
For some reason, I never recorded Frank George playing Over the Waterfall at the BOTMC, but at Clifftop 2013, I did record a wonderful version of Alan Jabbour playing it with Dean Reed on guitar (Henry Reed's son).
Alan tells a wonderful story before playing "Over the Waterfall" and I am uploading the video on youtube. With luck, it will be available in a few hours. Uploads sometimes hiccup while exporting - not sure why.
I will ask Miles Krassen to play a 3 part Over the Waterfall and try to record it and get it up on the Hangout, assuming Miles is familiar with the 3 part version. Maybe this will happen this weekend. Miles knows a whole lot of Frank George tunes and plays them really well on fiddle. I am lucky and play his Mark Russell banjo while he fiddles.
Edited by - BANJOJUDY on 01/03/2014 17:52:01
Don Borchelt - Posted - 01/04/2014: 07:09:26
This tune has been an old chestnut for so long, it's hard to believe it hasn't been done already. It was one of the first fiddle tunes I worked up when I switched to using open D tuning, around 1975; I remember playing it with a couple of friends one fine summer evening that year, busking in the main entrance to the Harvard Coop, in Harvard Square. A banjo picking friend of mine who was there went wild when he heard me play it. I remember the year because I got married later that fall.
Some fine banjo picking by Lew, Stefan, Eric, Jim and Nick. I've attached a couple of recordings. One is from a marathon banjo jam session with Jim Reed, Don Couchie, and myself, at our Banjo Hell campsite at Clifftop, 2010. The caption on the banner reads "Just when you thought you couldn't have too many banjos." Jim and I are both playing three finger style banjo, and Don C is playing clawhammer. The other is a video of Ed Britt and I busking in Harvard Square in September, 2011, thirty-six years after I did it the first time. Over the years, I've switched to tuning the fifth string to A, instead of F#, when playing in open D. Times change.
Back around 1970, my parents took me to a festival in West Virginia, where Franklin George was one of the leading performers. I has been playing banjo for about three years, and had hit one of those times when I was pretty discouraged. I had fallen in love with fiddle tunes, but was struggling to figure out how to play them on banjo, in three finger style. I decided to attend a festival workshop that George gave on old time fiddle. When the workshop was over, and everyone else was filing out for the next scheduled event, I went up to him to tell him how much I enjoyed it, and to ask a few questions about fiddle tunes. He saw my banjo, and asked me if I wanted to play a few tunes. We were just starting Arkansas Traveler, when another young man walked in with a tape recorder, and asked if he could tape. After a few measures, the fellow asked me to stop playing, saying I was ruining the recording. I didn't see how I could argue with him, I would have been the first to admit that my picking didn't sound like much. But just as I was about to put down my banjo, George spoke up. "This young man and I are playing some tunes together," he said, "and we are going to keep going, and if you don't want to tape us, you can catch me later, and I'll be glad to record anything you want then." It is impossible to express how important that gesture was to me, it gave me a lot of encouragement just when I needed it most. God bless Franklin George. I have tried best I could to follow his example, ever since.
- Don Borchelt
Edited by - Don Borchelt on 01/04/2014 07:15:56
stigandr5 - Posted - 01/04/2014: 07:44:57
What a great tune to start out a new year!
I'm not 100% satisfied with my version, but I don't think it's a bad start. I made up a third part of my own because, hey, why not?
Enjoy!
-N.A.
Brooklynbanjoboy - Posted - 01/04/2014: 07:52:49
N.A.
Your third part is really the 4th part about which someone who writes a TOTW essay 40 years from now will offer learned speculation.
Nice sound, great playing,
Lew
stigandr5 - Posted - 01/04/2014: 08:16:51
quote:
Originally posted by Brooklynbanjoboy
N.A.
Your third part is really the 4th part about which someone who writes a TOTW essay 40 years from now will offer learned speculation.
Nice sound, great playing,
Lew
Haha, many thanks, Lew!
JanetB - Posted - 01/04/2014: 15:28:27
That was real interesting, Lew, and challenging, too. I was one of the lucky ones who got to jam with the group under the "giant oak tree" with Franklin George--the best part of attending the Berkeley Old Time Music Festival. This old tune is the first one I ever arranged for clawhammer when I was first learning, but of course I hadn't heard about a third part till now. Could it also be considered a variation of the second part?
BANJOJUDY - Posted - 01/04/2014: 18:43:57
youtube.com/watch?v=SHjymEwmcK0
Alan Jabbour at Clifftop 2013 video now on youtube. It is about 7 minutes. On guitar you will see Henry Reed's son, Dean Reed.
There's a lot of talking prior to getting to the actual tune, but that's what makes it interesting to me.
Hopefully you'll all enjoy viewing it.
Now back to the Eagles game.
Brooklynbanjoboy - Posted - 01/05/2014: 03:01:23
Hi JanetB.
Thanks for throwing in your version here. The way you started off sounded as though it could be a madrigal.
I do agree that the third part could be a variant of the second part, or at least derived from it. As I attempted to argue, the conventional B Part and the Third Part interact and overlap, and play well over one another so there is symmetry of a sort, suggesting -- to me -- that the Third Part could be a minor/modal version of the conventional B Part.
Hi Judy.
Thanks for loading your great video up here for us to see. Alan is always so enthusiastic about the music. Whether he’s playing it or just talking about, he brings a deep-seated energy to both bowing or parsing lyrics and melody lines from the old music.
Hi Don.
What a great story. I guess it shouldn’t be surprising at how the Old People who play the Old Music are instinctually protective or nurturing toward young ones who are trying to find a way to play this music. That’s what was wonderful about Clifftop. Years ago I was sitting with another banjo player and trying to figure out a tune. We were purposefully out of sight and mind from the mainstream, tucked away in a little used alcove, fixed on a bit of the music and frustrated. One of the elderly Appalachian Masters fiddlers featured that year (probably in the mid-1990s) happened by, heard us, saw us, and broke out into a clog as though he recognized the tune. It was enough to nudge us to continue on with out effort to get the tune down. One more quick Clifftop story. Ralph Blizzard, also a featured Clifftop Master one year, was wandering the festival groups, and stopping to talk to young folks. It became clear to me, when he waded into a small circle where I was standing with some friends, that he was turning aside questions about his music, and asking people about what they played, how they learned, what they liked, where they played.
What they did for people taking a crack at this music was at least as important as the occasional emails or Youtube comments that you post when you come across a video from BHO friends and offer your valued words of positive encouragement.
V/R,
Lew
Harpist - Posted - 01/05/2014: 03:39:36
Here's a variation I do on the fiddle that could be used as an extra part. My wife has gone off for the week with my iPad, which means I can't post the banjo tab (the tab-writing app is on the iPad). However, the banjo version is similar. Apologies for the mp3 sound - like a string quartet!
BANJOJUDY - Posted - 01/05/2014: 12:03:59
Miles Krassen wrote in an email, "I don't know a third part. But the tune is probably from a traveling minstrel show or something like that. There could be sheet music somewhere. Frank George didn't play three parts when I knew him. The version we have comes from Henry Reed. Don't think it had more than two parts."
So, I am merely going to assume that Frank George noodled around a bit and created his own third part. He will be appearing in Santa Fe at the annual festival (late August) - I will try and record him playing the three part version. I hope someone will remind me to do so - sometimes I believe I am suffering from that new C-Nile computer virus.
slc - Posted - 01/06/2014: 09:06:48
No, he told me he didn't know where it came from. But Oscar Wright played that part with FG fairly often, and he (Wright) would often make up or change parts to tunes. So it's possible Wright made up that part, but FG didn't know for sure; it was just "around" back in the day.
btw I understand that Soundcloud version of Franklin George playing it (posted above) requires an account. Sorry about that and I just posted it to BHO - see below.
Stefan
Edited by - slc on 01/06/2014 09:19:11
Yigal Zan - Posted - 01/06/2014: 10:02:26
I have just uploaded an informal transcription of Henry Reed's fiddling of OTW to the Tabs section of my BHO home area. The direct URL is,
hangoutstorage.com/banjohangou...12014.gif
I recall Alan Jabbour contemplating, perhaps in the notes he wrote for the Hollow Rock String Band record, that the tune is related to the Irish set dance Job On Journey Work.
Brooklynbanjoboy - Posted - 01/07/2014: 11:08:41
Pat,
Really nice, rollicking version.
I like the way you work in some of those Roundpeak type licks.
And I truly like the way you thwack that 4th string from time to time.
Thanks for sharing,
Lew
slc - Posted - 01/07/2014: 12:09:46
Really good, Pat! Nicely lyrical. Did you get that from the tab??
Brooklynbanjoboy - Posted - 01/07/2014: 12:21:07
I was curious so I did a Youtube search for "Job Of Journey Work," and came up with this -- in which one might detect bits and pieces of the Waterfall...
banjukebox - Posted - 01/07/2014: 16:17:34
quote:
Originally posted by slc
Really good, Pat! Nicely lyrical. Did you get that from the tab??
No. I ended up watching a number of youtube versions and encorporated them into this version. I usually tab out songs to help me learn and remember them. I'll post a copy in the Tab folder.
slc - Posted - 01/07/2014: 16:18:28
I can't connect the dots - lol! It's probably the slip jig timing (or is it hornpipe?) throwing me off. But I've heard this tune before - my daughter used to do this kind of dancing, and likely the tune is a feis standard.
Edited by - slc on 01/07/2014 16:19:25
g3zdm - Posted - 01/08/2014: 17:05:49
Tonight, playing at a session mainly consisting of English morris dance tunes we played a tune called Dark Girl Dressed in Blue which has a striking similarity to OTW.. I wonder of the English tune came first.
Chris Muriel, Manchester.
vrteach - Posted - 01/09/2014: 07:21:43
Is this the tune?
I see the similarity to OTW, and particularly with the song "Fellow that Looks Like Me." Great tune. Wish I could play one of those.
Edited by - vrteach on 01/09/2014 07:26:10
banjo bill-e - Posted - 01/09/2014: 08:14:41
Pat, I really like your version, and your tab is very well written and clearly shows what you are doing here. Great job.
Bill
AcousticBuckeye - Posted - 01/09/2014: 17:44:33
First off....Great playing for sure. I really enjoyed the your playing. It's funny I am not totally familiar with the song being fairly new to Bluegrass/Old Time/Fiddle Music. But I knew I heard the tune a hundred times and couldn't figure it out. It was driving me crazy. And after some internet searches I found it. A band called Railroad Earth that I listen to jams 'Over the Waterfall' in the middle of their song 'Seven Story Mountain'. Check it out starting around 9:45 minutes in:
youtube.com/watch?v=GHvo_l3jJew
Sorry no banjo action but it's cool to see the song in a different context and I think they build up to and play it well. It's interesting because bands like Railroad Earth and Greensky Bluegrass are what turned me on to old time classic music.
Can't wait...My first banjo is set to be delivered tomorrow. A Deering Goodtime Open Back from Banjo Hut. Very excited.
Acoustic Buckeye
Edited by - AcousticBuckeye on 01/09/2014 17:47:00
slc - Posted - 01/09/2014: 17:56:01
Congrats on your first banjo!!
Edited by - slc on 01/09/2014 17:56:24
g3zdm - Posted - 01/10/2014: 16:06:55
quote:
Originally posted by vrteach
Is this the tune?
I see the similarity to OTW, and particularly with the song "Fellow that Looks Like Me." Great tune. Wish I could play one of those.
Yes, that's the one - and we have melodeon, concertina and piano accordion players in the mix when we play that 1. It's kinda like OTW in reverse.
Chris Muriel, Manchester, UK
Edited by - g3zdm on 01/10/2014 16:09:08
mojohand40 - Posted - 01/11/2014: 06:03:42
Just read this recently over on the Fiddle Hangout. Interesting stuff:
"Over the Waterfall" was popularized by Alan Jabbour and the Hollow Rock String Band, but their source was Henry Reed who said he heard it at "Teets's Show" when he was just a little boy.
Teets Brothers was a regional circus Mr. Reed remembered when he was a little boy. Here are photos: johnteets.com/Interesting/Teet...Train.jpg
