soulcarve - Posted - 09/24/2013:  12:09:21

Some of you may have followed my recent purchase of a Baldwin ODE C here:

banjohangout.org/topic/270184/1

After playing with the banjo for a couple weeks, and learning how it feels, there are a couple of things that stand out.  I am ready to change the strings, and I find them to be a little high off the fret board, closer to probably .25" (maybe a bit less than that)  off the fretboard on the 12th fret.  This is not too objectionable, but it's not something I am used to on my Deering GT Special.  So, can the string height be lowered by me without doing a complete setup?  Also, the banjo came with a tool that looks in decent shape that has a tag that reads, ODE Banjo -- I think this slotted looking tool is for the neck adjust thingie.

I am a DYI'er, and a ham radio op, and I don't mind getting inside of something -- but I am no Luthier, and I like the way the banjo sounds as is and it stays in tune for days on end even with the strings that came off the Mayflower.  I just don't want to do something that is going to throw everything else out of whack.

Another question, would I have to adjust the bridge position to bring the strings closer to fretboard?

Real happy with the purchase, but think some things could be tweaked here.  Keep in mind I'm only 3 months into banjos, and loving it -- but need some advice on setting this gem up.

OR, should I just change the strings and leave it at that until I can get someone with ODE experience to work on it?

Thanks In Advance,

Rob

 

Edited by - soulcarve on 09/24/2013 14:33:47

kmwaters - Posted - 09/24/2013:  12:21:17

Deering has a pretty good piece on setup and how to tweak the coordinator rods.  You may not have to do it, but if you do, pay attention to the advice and stay conservative.  Drastic adjustments with those rods could result in rim damage.

If it is strictly a string height issue, you may be able to fix that with a bridge change.  You want 2 pennies fitting snugly under the 12th fret first string.  No extra space, nor pennies pushing the string up either.  Just right or close to it.  

If you are getting any string buzzing then you have to check neck relief which is the little bowed shape.  The neck should have a little dip or dish in the center.  This is adjusted with the truss rod.  Some are accessed by removing the cover in the peghead, but I know some of Chuck's Omes were accessed only by removing the neck and going in from the other end.  You will have to just explore that.  If you see no cover in the peghead then you know where to go. Just a quarter to a half turn should do it for you if you need it.  You can look down the edge of the neck by holding the banjo on its side so to speak with the peghead at your face.  Then just eyeball the edge of the neck for that little curve.

aardbark - Posted - 09/24/2013:  12:39:43

I also have an ODE model C and you have a few options available in lowering your strings.   However, these options are not unique to ODE.  They are the same options that most 5 string banjos have.

1.Try a shorter bridge.  I don't know what height your bridge is, but if it's an 11/16 for example, then you could try a 5/8 inch bridge.  Bridges don't generally come shorter than 5/8 inch, so if that is what you have already, then you'll need one of the next two options.

2. Shim the neck.  This means removing the strings, loosening the neck from the rim and placing a thin piece of plastic (credit card) or something similar between the neck and the rim, then tighten it back up.  Be sure and put the shim above the lag bolt which holds the neck to the rim.  This will place the neck at a steeper angle, which will lower the strings.

3.  This is probably the most common method for lowering strings:  loosen the inside nut on the lower coordinating rod and tighten up the external nut until you get the string action to the height you want it.  Then retighten the internal nut until is snug, then add about a quarter-turn for tightness.   This will pull the neck down and lower the strings.  Some folks don't like this approach because it can affect the sound quality of the banjo.  Others, however, including some banjo makers, recommend this as the best approach, if you can't get a lower bridge.  On my Ode, I shimmed the neck.  However, I've also used this third approach before and it didn't seem to affect the sound quality much, if any.

4.  You could also take your banjo to a qualified luthier and have the neck altered to provide a better fit.  However, it doesn't sound like you're ready to spend that kind of money on your banjo.  Neither was I.

Good luck

soulcarve - Posted - 09/24/2013:  13:07:12

Thanks for replies so far. I did the 2-penny test, and there is definitely a bit of daylight between the top of the top penny and the strings. Mind you, it's not enough to stick another penny in there.



Kmwaters - So I kept doing the 2-penny test all the way down the neck until it seemed they were sitting as described. Seems the pennies sit best between the strings on the 7th fret, so yeah -- the strings are a bit too high. I'd measure them with my caliper for exact height if only I could find it.



Xvqqdr6 -- I know you said the options are not unique to ODE, but is higher strings (off the fretboard) unique to ODE? And...do some ppl set their banjos up this way, and could it lead to any damage if left as is?  I may take the resonator off tonight and start examining things closely. Especially before I turn any wrenches or tools loose on the ODE.



I seen George Banjos in Tennessee works on these ODES -- but this would require shipping it (scary). I emailed him about possibly replacing some frets, and he promptly replied -- and I've read great things about him here on the hangout. I'd prefer to have someone who knows what they are doing get into this, but it will probably get expensive quickly. Still, this may be the best option if I don't commit to doing it myself.



Still, I love playing this banjo and the sound (to me) is excellent.



Watching this thread attentively :-).



Thanks Again!

Edited by - soulcarve on 09/24/2013 13:09:02

MidMo - Posted - 09/24/2013:  15:45:05

You may want to get input from the Ode "Gurus" before going to the co-rods, and the neck truss rod in particular. The slotted wrench you have is for the truss rod, and if it hasn't been adjusted in a long time they can corrode and give you problems. Same way with the co-rods. I had one a while back and remember the caution flag came out when I asked about adjustments. Those parts are unique to the Odes and no longer available. I opted for a slightly lower bridge as the neck relief was good. There are several folks around with a lot of experience with these Classic banjos. Maybe check out the Ode Owners Group.  Best Wishes  PJW

soulcarve - Posted - 09/24/2013:  16:20:58

MidMo -- agreed on the "red flags coming out". I read that just recently on an ODE post. The more I have read on this, I see that a few banjo players set their action as high as a quarter-inch on the 12th fret. Like I said, my ODE isn't quite that high. I may just change the strings, and keep gathering info until I feel comfortable making the adjustments (or ... finding a pro to do it). Thanks for your response!

beegee - Posted - 09/24/2013:  20:07:28

On any banjo, the first step is to check to make sure the neck is not bowed. It should not be dead-flat, but need only a tiny bit of relief. If you sight down the neck and see a curve, it needs to be flattened. This is usually a matter of tightening the truss rod. You should also check for high frets or overly worn frets.

Once the neck is flat, check the action at the 12th fret. I would not use a bridge less than 5/8". Gibson spec at 12th fret is 7/64" 

Make sure the neck is tight to the rim. The coordinator rods should not be so tight at the tailpiece end that they distort the rim. The nuts should be snug.

If the action is still too high with a proper bridge and neck adjustment, you will need to shim the heel at the top attachment point. I use a credit card shim between the heel and the rim. I cut a strip of credit card and punch a hole in the middle to fit over the hanger bolt.

Edited by - beegee on 09/24/2013 20:07:56

mvolcjak - Posted - 09/24/2013:  22:01:40

Whoa!  Do not attempt to adjust the action with the coordinator rods if it still has the original rods in it!  Baldwin/Odes do not have a hex nut, like Gibson, but rather a knurled (round) “nut”, which is actually more like a sleeve.  These rods hold the neck on and do little more.  One cannot place much torque on these (soft) sleeves without damaging either the rod or sleeve.

There are a number of Baldwin/Odes out there with replacement (Gibson style) rods due to broken or stripped rods/nuts due to people attempting to adjust the action with them.

To adjust the action height for a Baldwin/Ode with the original rods in it, one must either change the bridge height, adjust the head tension, shim the neck, or cut the heel to achieve the desired height.

If the original rods have been replaced with Gibson style rods, minimal adjustment “could” be achieved using the rods, but this will impact tone, as well as the “roundness” of your rim.  (Baldwin rims are mulit-ply and relatively thin.)   In this light, I have to agree with Beegee in that the rods only need to be snug.  I do not use the rods (even on my Gibson), for height adjustments as there are just better ways, (usually the bridge height with my banjos), to adjust an action higher or lower.

Take it Easy … MarK

mvolcjak - Posted - 09/24/2013:  22:05:09

Rob

By the way, Tommy George is a Baldwin "guru" and he would be a wise choice if you wanted a "professional" to set up your banjo.

Take it Easy ... MarK

soulcarve - Posted - 10/02/2013:  18:24:04

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the pointers, and head-ups for me not to be to hasty on this action adjustment.  I took the resonator off yesterday, changed the strings -- this Ode C has the sleeved nuts/adjusters on the co-rods, I did NOT tinker around with that or attempt any adjustment in the neck.  When I get ready to do it, I think I'll end up paying someone who knows these banjos ... or maybe try a 1/2" bridge -- it's running a 5/8 now.



I cleaned the banjo up, replaced the bridge with the same 5/8 Grover and put Deering light strings on it.  The previous strings seemed to be a bit thicker and a bit louder, possibly mediums -- but I can't be sure of this. I may order some mediums and give them a try, I actually liked the feeling of the old crusty strings.  Got it tuned and chiming the strings on the 12th fret seem dead on using an electronic tuner.

For now, I'll live with the high action I guess.   Thanks for all the replies.

arnie fleischer - Posted - 10/02/2013:  19:30:35

Be aware that 1/2" bridges are rarely used on bluegrass banjos.  The standard, and most makers' original equipment, is 5/8", followed by .656" and 11/16".   There can be a lot of variation in acceptable action at the 12th fret, depending on the player's preference.  A quarter inch (16/64") is high compared to the usual  range of action at the 12th fret, which generally runs from 6/64" to 10/64".  Some people prefer higher action.

Try to get as precise a measurement as you can not only at the 12th fret but also at the 22nd fret, where the action is often 1/64" - 2/64" higher than at the 12th fret.  

mvolcjak - Posted - 10/05/2013:  12:35:10

Rob,

The problem with banjo action adjustment is that is that banjo actions are not "static", like a guitar or mandolin.  With a banjo, head tension and tailpiece adjustment also have an impact on action height.  You could lower the action by loosening the head tension or by increasing the downward pressure of the tail piece by lowering it.  Assuming that this banjo has the original Ode tail piece, you could exert a lot of downward force with it.  Heavier gauge strings would also exert more downward force and have some impact in the action as well.  The problem with these changes is that the tone of the banjo will be altered, maybe for the better, maybe for the worse.  Also the height of the strings from the head and neck does have an impact on overall volume.  The lower the action the less volume, while the heavier the string gauge, the more volume.  (Generally speaking that is.)

With all of these variables, and the varying impacts they can have on action, getting a banjo set up to both sound good and play easily can be a pain.  I went through a lot of trial and error getting my Baldwin set up to both play and sound the way I wanted.    At this time, however, it is still set up as it came back from its last fret job, and I think it is set up a little better (including tone) than I ever accomplished.  So while I was pleased with the way it sounded before, the “professional’s touch” made it better.

I firmly believe that anyone who plays a banjo should be able to take it apart and put it back together.  It is, after all, a bunch of parts bolted and screwed together.  So, mess around with your banjo and see what you come up with.  If you cannot achieve what you want (or need) on your own, then get a professional to set it up for you.

Good Luck.

Take it Easy ... MarK