StudioKing - Posted - 02/25/2013:  06:33:59

I got to play an all original pre-war flathead style 75 this weekend at the DCBU Mid-Atlantic Bluegrass Band contest. Although I actually once owned a pre-war hi-profile flathead tone ring, it was of the earlier lightweight variety, and I never had it in anything special.

So technically, this was my first time playing an original flathead. It was memorable for sure! Never heard such life from a banjo. As Jim Mills once said it, the sound seemed to come from deep under ground! Great tone all over the neck, very powerful, warm tone but with an underlying sparkle. You could pull any tone you wanted from it. At first I didn't realize that this 75 was an original flathead. When I first picked it up, and amazed by the tone, I asked the well-known owner what kind of ring he had in it, he said, "the original one". I replied, "It sounds amazing!" He said, "yep, that's why!"

I was very grateful he let me play it--always wondered what it would be like. Now I'm ruined.

Anyway, I though it might be interesting to hear other players recollections from their first time playing a pre-war flathead...

southerndrifter - Posted - 02/25/2013:  06:49:08

I could take you to the very spot that I first played an original prewar flathead! It was at Doyle Lawson's Denton, NC festival in 1981. I was jamming and a gentleman that I had never met, walked up and asked if I wanted to play his banjo. At that time, I owned a Stelling Golden Cross and I was not a fan of Gibson banjos at all!    Anyway, he takes it out and I had no idea what it was........other than it was an old Gibson with tarnished gold plating! It did have a most amazing sound though!! After I played it a bit, the owner suggested that I move my hand further from the bridge, to get a better tone. I've never forgotten that moment! And luckily, that gentleman has become a cherished friend of mine!

Oh, and what kind of Gibson was it, you might ask? Well, none other than RB-Granada 9584-5! As Joe Spann said to me a few weeks ago, "That was a heck of a start!" Yes it was!

StudioKing - Posted - 02/25/2013:  07:28:34

" A heck of a start"... boy. I'll say! I don't know who owns 9584-5, but wouldn't that banjo be a litter mate of Earl's and of Sonny's?

Shoo-wee!

How would you describe the tone?

Greg Earnest - Posted - 02/25/2013:  08:23:14

It was December 30, 1990 at the Jekyll Island Bluegrass Festival on the Georgia coast.  Larry Perkins handed me an all-original RB-75 to play and time seemed to stop.  I don't know how long I sat there, but I left the Jekyll Island Convention Center that night with the smell of that banjo on my hands and my shirt, and I have been ruined ever since.

StudioKing - Posted - 02/25/2013:  08:33:21

Good to hear from you Greg! I've spent dozens and dozens of hours on your website, poring over all the detail pics.

I'll bet you've played quite a few since that time in 1990! I saw a clip of you on youtube awhile back from banjothon 2012, playing the Mack Crow banjo. Great sounding banjo, and some great picking to boot. I remember you did some real cool high up the neck lick that got my attention.

wbelm - Posted - 02/25/2013:  08:35:04

EARL's Granada in 1967, while sharing a locker room bench with Earl in Springdale, Arkansas. He said "You, you wanna play my banjer?".

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 02/25/2013:  08:52:02

I think my first time on a PW FH was a few licks on Ted Lundy's banjo, backstage at one of Doug Tuchman's shows at the South Street Seaport in NYC in the 1970s. I didn't know much back then about bluegrass or banjos. I mainly remember how nice Ted was to a presumptuous teenager who asked to try Ted's instrument.

StudioKing - Posted - 02/25/2013:  09:25:42

Good to hear from you, too, Ira! I've seen you several times in the past and really like your playing alot--except I've only heard you on guitar and bass... once or twice sitting in on guitar with one of my telecaster heroes, Bill Kirchen, and once on standup bass with a blues band we shared the bill with.

That's a great story you have indeed

The Old Timer - Posted - 02/25/2013:  09:47:45

Hmmm, I've played a number of 'em, and while they all sounded "very good" (a walnut 4, a 7, a 12 and two RB 75s) I must say that Joe Deetz' originals were the only twones that instantly made me feel "I am not worthy!" They are just at a whole 'nother level.

And I think it's something more than just setup.

southerndrifter - Posted - 02/25/2013:  11:25:33

quote:

---

Originally posted by StudioKing

" A heck of a start"... boy. I'll say! I don't know who owns 9584-5, but wouldn't that banjo be a litter mate of Earl's and of Sonny's?

Shoo-wee!

How would you describe the tone?

---

 Yes, it is a litter mate to Earl's Granada........in fact, those two banjos were both ordered on the same day from the same place and arrived together on the same day! But surprisingly, they were one number apart on their FONs......and there were a few other subtle differences too.

Tone? Well, how can I describe it? After many years, I got to play 9584-5 again last year. When I first began to play it, I was somewhat disappointed! It didn't have the sound that I had remembered! Now you have to understand that the owner also owns some other fine banjos and he hadn't been playing 9584-5 very much. Well, the more I played the banjo, the better it got! Towards the end of my visit, I dropped it down in "D" tuning and started playing stuff like Rueben and John Henry..........let me tell ya, the hair still stands up on my neck just thinking about it!! It had THAT sound! The EARL sound! It HAD it! And of course, my sleep has been tormented ever since! LOL! 

StudioKing - Posted - 02/25/2013:  11:59:28

Wow. I can't imagine owning RB-Granada 9584-5 and "not playing it much"!

Anyway, alot can happen to the setup after so many years, as well. And since setup is so crucial to a banjo's tone, I sometimes wonder if one reason the pre-war flatheads sound so good is simply because they are such valuable instruments, generally the owners have had them set up extremely well!

f5loar - Posted - 02/25/2013:  12:18:56

My problem with this question is how do you really know you were playing the real deal prewar flathead or just one of those 10,000's of others that claim to be prewar original flatheads?  Do you trust the guy who has it?  Or did you get that 2nd/3rd opinion to verify what he told you is factual truth and nothing but the truth? 

robbyboone - Posted - 02/25/2013:  12:43:31

quote:

---

Originally posted by f5loar

My problem with this question is how do you really know you were playing the real deal prewar flathead or just one of those 10,000's of others that claim to be prewar original flatheads?  Do you trust the guy who has it?  Or did you get that 2nd/3rd opinion to verify what he told you is factual truth and nothing but the truth? 

---

 I don't believe that there is such a thing as a "real" flathead......I think they are all myths......something we dreamed up.......and if there is such a thing Earl must have had the only one ever built.

Give us a break man......do you find something negative in EVERYTHING? Real or not....let us enjoy the memories for what they are.....at least out memories are "real".

Robby

Edited by - robbyboone on 02/25/2013 12:43:47

southerndrifter - Posted - 02/25/2013:  13:05:43

quote:

---

Originally posted by StudioKing

Wow. I can't imagine owning RB-Granada 9584-5 and "not playing it much"!

 

---

 I know! But the owner prefered an RB-3 flathead that he also owns, so he plays that one more now. To him, the Granada neck was a little "chunky".........and it IS! If the neck on Earl's banjo was shaped the same as this one, I can understand why he had Gibson cut it down! But if I had it, I think I would just get used to it!!

Leslie R - Posted - 02/25/2013:  13:42:31

I have never even SEEN a prewar flathead. I hope I get a chance to play one before I leave this world.

StudioKing - Posted - 02/25/2013:  14:28:02

Maybe that's the reason it didn't get played as much, Southerndrifter. Jim Mills said in his book that he believed that when Snuffy Jenkins owned both, he preferred the RB-4 over the what was to become Earl's Granada probably because of the neck shape.

And in answer your question F5Loar, I know that the Style 3 I played was the real deal. It has been played by and is well-known to Jim Mills, and the owner is someone that I consider to be a very knowledgeable collector.

RB3WREATH - Posted - 02/25/2013:  16:48:56

Thanks Dick for the nice words about my banjos. My first experience was in the 70's, a pre-war wreath came to me at 19 years old and I put a neck on it and never knew a banjo could give back so much I have been an addict ever since. 

Joe

banjobilly32 - Posted - 02/25/2013:  17:00:04

I got my hands on several original flatheads at an avid collectors home in Elmira NY.  Al Amisano would bring out banjo after banjo for me to play. He had a Granada from a lot near the number of Earl's and Sonny's, he had two style 6's both flatheads, one was the checkerboard style and the other was the gold sparkle. In addition he had some arch tops and a flathead 3.

Toward the end of our visit he would always make me pick my favorite from the group and it was consistently the Granada. Al is close friends with Frank Neat who would visit from time to time in Elmira. I never doubted that any of Al's banjos were not originals. He had the tenor necks and cases for his banjos right in his workshop. Al subsequently moved to Russell Springs Ky. and also has a Winter home in Pompano Beach Fl.  I do miss our visits!

I acquired a flathead Granada in the mid 1990's for myself which Al helped me get a new neck and set up to play as a 5string via Frank Neat.  This banjo has cured my BAS (well I did get weak and picked up a Silver Bell tenor which I have since sold)

Others have said they could hear snippets of Earl while they played a pre war flathead.  I agree, there is something about this experience you will never forget! After I went home from playing with Al's banjos my wife used to wake me up and complain I was making picking motions with my hands! If you get a chance try one. I let a lot of players pick mine at Banjo Camp North and can't recall one complaint! Jim Mills made it sound real good!

flathead33 - Posted - 02/25/2013:  17:15:41

9526- My dads flathead Granada. That was 30 years ago and I've never been the same since.

BANJOBOB549 - Posted - 02/25/2013:  17:26:46

quote: COOL DOWN  You Little #$*t, you had a chance at one RB-75 flathead to take home & pick as long as you wanted. Nobody seemed interested in Crowe,s No Hole flathead while I had That PIECE OF JUNK for nearly 2 years,,,,,,The Sound has to seep into your Brain,,,,,

---

Originally posted by robbyboone

quote:

---

Originally posted by f5loar

My problem with this question is how do you really know you were playing the real deal prewar flathead or just one of those 10,000's of others that claim to be prewar original flatheads?  Do you trust the guy who has it?  Or did you get that 2nd/3rd opinion to verify what he told you is factual truth and nothing but the truth? 

---

 I don't believe that there is such a thing as a "real" flathead......I think they are all myths......something we dreamed up.......and if there is such a thing Earl must have had the only one ever built.

Give us a break man......do you find something negative in EVERYTHING? Real or not....let us enjoy the memories for what they are.....at least out memories are "real".

Robby

---

pick it - Posted - 02/25/2013:  17:36:19

 I played JDs old #3  in 1969, then I played a tb-7 in 1970 then  JDs #75 all afternoon a couple years ago.

Edited by - pick it on 02/25/2013 17:36:52

LeonEvans - Posted - 02/25/2013:  20:40:53

Sonny Osborne's Granada in early 1983 when he and Bobby were doing the Bluegrass at the Symphony tour in Bismark, North Dakota. What a treat to meet one of your heroes and have him say "Try this one." He told us about how he got the banjo and then spent some time picking my OME for good measure.

Leon

Deaf Lester Crawdad - Posted - 02/25/2013:  22:28:01

I got to play Earl's banjo (for about 30 seconds) backstage at The Ash Grove on Melrose in L.A  in about '62 or '63 (?).    I wasn't much into Bluegrass at the time and didn't think much about it until I had a chance to play Sonny's for about 20 minutes a decade or so later on when I was fronting a bluegrass band at a festival.

Then I recalled what Earl's had sounded like and thought it interesting that the two banjos seemed to sound so much alike to me.

Later yet someone told me that they were both from the same batch, and I said "Oh" to myself.   "No wonder".

~Pete

Deaf Lester Crawdad - Posted - 02/25/2013:  22:37:59

quote:

---

Originally posted by ambpicker



I have never even SEEN a prewar flathead. I hope I get a chance to play one before I leave this world.

---

 They're still out there, so you stand a very good chance if you try.

Many years ago a guy showed up at the Topanga Banjo & Fiddle Contest with (1.) a prewar flathead, (2.) a Lloyd Loar, and (3.) a prewar Herringbone D-28.   He then proceeded to let anyone play them; either together or separately, and he was there for most of the day doing that.

He told me that he was doing it because almost nobody ever got the chance to play these sorts of instruments any more; much less have the chance to hear them working together all at once -and he wanted to share that with as many players as he could.

I still think that was one of the nicest gestures I've ever seen anyone make.

~Pete

ejimb0 - Posted - 02/25/2013:  23:26:03

It was a neat experience. The banjo was set up well and it just cracked.. It was everything that I had heard about them and more. It is sad that they have become so valuable. They are all being locked away. .. like gold bars. 

You are much better off with a good conversion. You can get that sound with parts.. It may take a couple of trys, But it is do-able.

....and you can lock that conversion in your trunk and still enjoy the show.

robbyboone - Posted - 02/26/2013:  05:15:36

quote:

---

Originally posted by BANJOBOB549

quote: COOL DOWN  You Little #$*t, you had a chance at one RB-75 flathead to take home & pick as long as you wanted. Nobody seemed interested in Crowe,s No Hole flathead while I had That PIECE OF JUNK for nearly 2 years,,,,,,The Sound has to seep into your Brain,,,,,

---

Originally posted by robbyboone

quote:

---

Originally posted by f5loar

My problem with this question is how do you really know you were playing the real deal prewar flathead or just one of those 10,000's of others that claim to be prewar original flatheads?  Do you trust the guy who has it?  Or did you get that 2nd/3rd opinion to verify what he told you is factual truth and nothing but the truth? 

---

 I don't believe that there is such a thing as a "real" flathead......I think they are all myths......something we dreamed up.......and if there is such a thing Earl must have had the only one ever built.

Give us a break man......do you find something negative in EVERYTHING? Real or not....let us enjoy the memories for what they are.....at least out memories are "real".

Robby

---

 

---

 You are correct about that Bob......the 75 and Banger were the 2nd and 3rd flatheads that I every got to play. I have to wonder if they were "the real deal" though......have they ever been verified? They're probably just 2 of the 40 thousand or so "original" flatheads that seem to be showing up. I won't even mention the first flathead that I got to play.....it belonged to a man that has 6 or so flatheads and a Loar, but nobody has heard of him so it couldn't have been real either. :)

Robby

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 02/26/2013:  06:31:21

quote:

---

Originally posted by StudioKing

Good to hear from you, too, Ira! I've seen you several times in the past and really like your playing alot--except I've only heard you on guitar and bass... once or twice sitting in on guitar with one of my telecaster heroes, Bill Kirchen, and once on standup bass with a blues band we shared the bill with.

That's a great story you have indeed

---

 'Tis sweet to be remembered! Thanks for the good word, Eric. I see you're in Knoxville. Have you ever run across my old friend Neil Newton there? He plays guitar and sings--folk & blues mainly. He doesn't play out too much but he's quite good.

hidehead - Posted - 02/26/2013:  07:43:27

 

 

---

 You are correct about that Bob......the 75 and Banger were the 2nd and 3rd flatheads that I every got to play. I have to wonder if they were "the real deal" though......have they ever been verified? They're probably just 2 of the 40 thousand or so "original" flatheads that seem to be showing up. I won't even mention the first flathead that I got to play.....it belonged to a man that has 6 or so flatheads and a Loar, but nobody has heard of him so it couldn't have been real either. :)

Robby

 

Robby,

That Granada is also the first PW/FL I ever got to play!  Never thought about it being bogus.   I guess we need to have our old banjers certified, verified and bonafied  before we talk about them on the BHO!  

Before you post anything about your old 3 or Granada on this forum please have the proper paper work and a complete lab analysis with core sample and alloy composition test results and carbon dating certificate!  And have all documents notarized and filed with the proper BHO experts!  Geeze!

larry

robbyboone - Posted - 02/26/2013:  08:11:39

Larry..

The time frame that I'm speaking of was before the Granada, this was 30 years or so ago and this was the only flathead that he owned at that time. It was a 3/75 five string that came from Randy Gurgliani (spelling) to this man, from this man to Paul Craft and then to England as I recall. This mans "other" flatheads came after this one......

And my banjos seriously do NOT qualify for this topic......one is a cut OPF Granada with a Blaylock ring and the OPF 3 has a verified flathead ring, it is not a from the factory flathead........and I DO have paperwork on them.

Robby

JoeZ - Posted - 02/26/2013:  08:15:54

Dear F5loar: Actually, he was without a doubt playing a "real" one. It was F943-1. A completely real, completely original (but for head and bridge) 1938 TB75 Gibson Mastertone flathead pot with a Frank Neat 5-string neck. 

Edited by - JoeZ on 02/26/2013 08:16:46

ARBanjo - Posted - 02/26/2013:  08:30:57

My first experience with a real prewar flathead was at one of Jim Mills' Gibson seminars a couple of years ago.  I got to play three of his 5 string flatheads.  To me the best, BY FAR, was the Mack Crow 75.  Man!!!!!  I probably played it for about 30 minutes, and didn't want to put it down. 

The other two PWs were GOOD, but not vastly better than my parts banjo ('29 TB-3 rim and a HR-30 ring).   But that gold-plated 75.....  it was!  BY FAR!

hidehead - Posted - 02/26/2013:  09:35:28

Robby,

Just kidding about the pedigree paperwork.  I forgot about the 3/75, I don't think I ever played that one but I do remember it.  I've traded quite a bit with Randy Gargaletti  through the years.  He was a GHS rep for several years.  When he would drop by the shop we would spend half a day talking about old banjos and such and then at the tail end of the visit I would put in the GHS order.  He retired last year to a log cabin in Montana by a lake full of trout!   His keeper banjo that I played a few times was a mid '30s original RB-1 cut for a FH ring, kinda like dropping a big block V8 in to a plain Jane Nova! It sounded great!  

larry

otd86866 - Posted - 02/26/2013:  11:29:48

My first PW flathead was my dad's and that would have been sometime around 1957 or so and he handed it to me while his group was jamming in our living room at home. I would have been 8 or 9 at that time. I still have his old Mastertone and now try to let others enjoy picking on one when I can.

pick it - Posted - 02/26/2013:  14:00:48

robby one of these was when JD was playing the Holiday Inn we went down a couple times a month, was it the old Banger?

robbyboone - Posted - 02/26/2013:  16:52:24

quote:

---

Originally posted by pick it

robby one of these was when JD was playing the Holiday Inn we went down a couple times a month, was it the old Banger?

---

Tim, you have to forgive me.....I don't exactly understand your question. Help me to know what you're asking and I'll do my best to answer.....even if I have to make something up!

Robby

BANJOBOB549 - Posted - 02/26/2013:  17:09:34

quote: IT WAS BANGER

---

Originally posted by robbyboone

quote:

---

Originally posted by pick it

robby one of these was when JD was playing the Holiday Inn we went down a couple times a month, was it the old Banger?

---

Tim, you have to forgive me.....I don't exactly understand your question. Help me to know what you're asking and I'll do my best to answer.....even if I have to make something up!

Robby

---

BPorter - Posted - 02/26/2013:  17:30:24

quote:

---

Originally posted by ambpicker



I have never even SEEN a prewar flathead. I hope I get a chance to play one before I leave this world.

---

 Got a chance to play 9528-1 in the early 1970s...John Bowles purchased it several years later.  Check this link out:  earnestbanjo.com/gibson_banjo_...528-1.htm 

After purchasing and playing a CE Ward original RB4 copy aka Masterclone, that RB3 flathead wreath sounding pretty good to me!

Bill Porter

pick it - Posted - 02/26/2013:  18:43:23

quote:

---

Originally posted by robbyboone

quote:

---

Originally posted by pick it

robby one of these was when JD was playing the Holiday Inn we went down a couple times a month, was it the old Banger?

---

Tim, you have to forgive me.....I don't exactly understand your question. Help me to know what you're asking and I'll do my best to answer.....even if I have to make something up!

Robby

---

 Robby,the question was answered by Bob,"was Banger the  banjo that JD played in the early days at the Holiday Inn" I knew it was a #3 ,RC Meade and me  called it "that old red banjo"my gosh that thing was loud and overpowering.

robbyboone - Posted - 02/26/2013:  18:58:03

I'm sorry Tim....your question was so obvious, I was trying to make it harder than it was!!! I'm an idiot!!! I suppose that JD could have been playing the 20 hole 3 some then too as he had them both at that time. He did not have the 75 till around 83'.

Sorry I dropped the ball on your question.......it's good to have friends like Bob to clean up what I screw up! ;)

Robby

Edited by - robbyboone on 02/26/2013 18:59:29

beegee - Posted - 02/26/2013:  21:53:07

I played sonny's Granada when he first got it and I have played the littermate Lynwood referred to several times. I have played several others owned by a friend. My own AT Granada has its own sound that is really special. there is something about a PW flathead, but not enough for me to pay the really big bucks for one.

Deaf Lester Crawdad - Posted - 02/26/2013:  22:37:46

quote:

---

Originally posted by beegee

I played sonny's Granada when he first got it and I have played the littermate Lynwood referred to several times. I have played several others owned by a friend. My own AT Granada has its own sound that is really special. There is something about a PW flathead, but not enough for me to pay the really big bucks for one.

---

 Considering how much of the sound is in the player -and not the banjo- that's the intelligent way of looking at it.

~Pete

BanjoDaddio - Posted - 02/27/2013:  01:41:30

My first time on an original was when a guy came over to my house in 1975 or so, saying he had an old Gibson banjo for sale. He opened the case and took out his 30's Gibson flathead checkerboard#6 with a very nice reproduction neck. I played it, I wanted it, I bought it, I loved it, then I sold it to Ben Eldridge. He played it, he loved it, he bought it, then he sold it. I kick myself daily but it was either the mortgage or that banjo. They do sound good, no doubt about it...

southerndrifter - Posted - 02/27/2013:  03:48:00

quote:

---

Originally posted by Deaf Lester Crawdad

quote:

---

Originally posted by beegee

I played sonny's Granada when he first got it and I have played the littermate Lynwood referred to several times. I have played several others owned by a friend. My own AT Granada has its own sound that is really special. There is something about a PW flathead, but not enough for me to pay the really big bucks for one.

---

 Considering how much of the sound is in the player -and not the banjo- that's the intelligent way of looking at it.

~Pete

---

 I sound like ME on every banjo I pick......prewar or otherwise........unfortunately.....    

BanjoFlyboy - Posted - 02/27/2013:  04:29:30

I've had the opportunity to play one of Earl's banjos several times. Unfortunately however, I sound more like "Pearl" than Earl! ;-(

Deaf Lester Crawdad - Posted - 02/27/2013:  10:53:58

quote:

---

Originally posted by southerndrifter

quote:

---

Originally posted by Deaf Lester Crawdad

quote:

---

Originally posted by beegee

I played sonny's Granada when he first got it and I have played the littermate Lynwood referred to several times. I have played several others owned by a friend. My own AT Granada has its own sound that is really special. There is something about a PW flathead, but not enough for me to pay the really big bucks for one.

---

 Considering how much of the sound is in the player -and not the banjo- that's the intelligent way of looking at it.

~Pete

---

 I sound like ME on every banjo I pick......prewar or otherwise........unfortunately.....    

---

 Not to worry: so does everyone else. 

Oh, there are a few players out there who are so good that they could make you think that Earl was in the room if you closed your eyes, but players who are that good have invariably developed their own styles as well, and rarely try to sound like anyone other than themselves.

~Pete

Ebanjo - Posted - 02/27/2013:  15:50:05

If I remember (It's been 37 years), the first pre-war flat head I ever played was Bill Runkle's style 4 conversion. I think it was originally a TB-4. Bill was playing with Del McCoury at the time.
Eric Ellis

jmillsapps - Posted - 02/28/2013:  02:52:42

The first pre-war flathead that I ever played was in 1975. It was a 3 that belonged to Marc Pruett in Asheville, NC . I had a D model Baldwin at the time and was impressed to say the least! Something special about a good PW flathead!

StudioKing - Posted - 02/28/2013:  05:28:57

I forgot, I did play Ben Eldridge's "Harvey" many years ago. I believe that has a Flathead ring, but it's low-profile... does that count?

Not the loudest banjo as I recall, but It was a very responsive banjo with alot of depth and beautiful tone.

lazyarcher - Posted - 02/28/2013:  07:20:05

We were the opening act for JD back around '78..it was the Keith Whitley era just before the Live in Japan tour. we were playing a bar called Fryfogles in London, and JD was downstairs in a lounge area during the break. He had his banjo case open and I asked if I could look at his banjo. He just said "yeah go ahead" in his quiet "whatever" style, politely putting up with another 19 yr old kid who thought he could play the banjo. I picked it up and just cradled it, JD looked down and said "pick the thing"...so I did.

I didnt know squat about prewar Gibsons, but I knew this banjo sounded WAY different than my newish RB800.

I spent the next 7 days/nights up close and personal listening to everything JD did...and that sound has never ever gone away.

I'm not sure what banjo that would have been...it was a 3/75 of some sort...????