John Herrington - Posted - 04/10/2010:  16:05:06

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Allow me to preface some of my questions with this qualifier, "I have nothing against it, use in a sort of altered form, and certainly don't want to stir up a controversy over the following questions. Would like to hear some answers from you, however.

The Questions are "Where in the whole wide world did this little arrangement of playing come from, and why did it become so dominant among banjo players?" It seems to me there are all kinds of interesting ways to play "old time banjo." What sacred saint discovered its magic and when?" And finally, (for me at least)"What makes his discovery the plates of gold within the thicket of obscurity that liberated mankind...or least "all banjo-pickindom?"

Please have at it, banjo pickers!

Old John on the Big Horn

Keltic Cherokee - Posted - 04/10/2010:  16:25:42

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well my contribution to your question is to tell you that the Bum-diddy is not unique to the banjo world only. I play mountain dulcimer and the Bum-diddy is a main stay on that instrument as well. Like the banjo world there are other styles for sure but when the "Old Time" music is played the Bum_diddy is very often the rythm pattern used.

I personally think its an attempt to replicate the bowing rythm that a fiddler uses ...but I'm not sure. I look forward to the unfolding of this discussion also

Best wishes
Ron

WildJimbo - Posted - 04/10/2010:  17:34:41

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Ron's comments are very good, and insightful. It's a very common rhythm - one I've seen applied to a variety of instruments. Back when I had my studio I had a Suzuki Violin instructor that started his students out with a couple of rhythm patterns. One was "Run Pony" and the other was "Mississippi". "Run Pony" works out to be what we call bum-ditty and "Mississippi" translates to bump-a-ditty.

The first complex rhythm I learned on guitar was a "Boom-chucka" thing - bass string (quarter note) then a strum and up pick on the first & second (eight notes). That's also the same as what we call a bum-ditty.

-=Jim

Teaching as SKAK 2010 - acoustic-camp.com

Bill Rogers - Posted - 04/10/2010:  18:09:25

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You'll hear jazz drummers do that same rhythm with their brushes.

John Gribble - Posted - 04/10/2010:  18:30:04

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If you look at the earliest published banjo music, from the mid 19th century, you'll find bum-ditty was in use, along with other rhythms which have fallen out of favor.

J-Walk - Posted - 04/10/2010:  19:45:23

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I blame Patrick Costello.

JUST KIDDING!!!

Jim Yates - Posted - 04/10/2010:  20:39:35

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further to Ron's comments: This is the rhythm used by guitar players playing the Carter's Scratch (played with thumb and fingers) or the church lick (played with a flat pick). I'm not sure if these are universal terms or just what folks in my circle call these strums.

I agree with Ron that the "Four potatoes" or "a little bit for nothin'" that fiddle players use to kick off a tune uses this rhythm. A local fiddle player always says,"Hey, let's play that one that starts out wee-diddy-dee-diddy."

tfaux - Posted - 04/11/2010:  06:57:17

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quote:

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Originally posted by John Herrington

What sacred saint discovered its magic and when?

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Its the great American shuffle. The four potatoes, the Georgia bow, Jo Jones' high-hat cymbal, Maybelle's boom-chicka, Hank Williams' "crack rhythm," and the sound of the little piece of paper Johnny Cash stuck in his guitar strings to imitate a snare on the original recording of "I Walk The Line."

Tom

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 04/11/2010:  15:30:51

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Bum Did-dy is a rhythm - to be exact it is a "lope" which makes it good for a lot of things. The Carter Scratch is actually a Bum-__ Did-dy lope but the BUM is a bass note. Many guitarists use the same rhythm with a different technique.

Bum-__ Did-dy, especially with a bass "Bum" but really ANY Bum-__ Did-dy makes a good accompaniment for folk songs - so long as a player knows you have to break the Bum-__ Did-dy at times - no matter what the instrument.

Many of us who are considered to be "anti bum did-dy" are actually just as anti Did-dy Bum and any other rhythm played without a break.

Most banjo players of my generation learned the Bum-__ Did-dy from Pete Seeger's book and some of us have done our best to stop calling the use of Bum-__ Did-dy as a "basic" stroke. Bum-dy or Did-dy would be a Basic Stroke. What people call "Bum Did-dy" is actually a compound stroke "Bum-rest" and "Did-dy. I find it almost impossible to excuse using the "Bum" without some indication of the fact there is a skipped note following. My experience is that too many beginners end up playing a rhythm that does not give "Bum" and "Did" equal time (or worse that they end up giving Bum Did Dy ALL equal time, turning it into a waltz.

When I read what the "oldtimers" who learned by watching their parents or other family members play have to say about it, they universally learned how to pick out melodies in the right key, and then added to the melody. Banjo teachers tend to start with chords and "Bum-__ Did-dys" then shove in the melody notes that fit both the chord and the rhythm.

One of the things I've learned about teaching through writing and answering questions about my book (my first attempt to teach without being face to face with the student) is that I should have gone with that melody first pattern in the book - it is how I teach face to face but I was afraid it would be impossible to describe in a book. I've since figured that out. I also have come to rely on MIDI-tab - tab that can be played on the computer since the student can Watch the rhythm in action. This means that bare-nekked tabs (strictly melody without ANY decoration) can be followed by the student even if he has never heard the tune before.

I will be interested in hearing what others have to say on the subject.

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 04/11/2010:  23:49:32

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I like what Tony says about the melody first way of learning. I think it is right on.

My Dad's concept was that on the banjo you play your own accompaniment which means
that you pick the melody and fill in the spaces with accompaniment strokes. At it's simplest,
it's kind of like a Carter Family guitar style transferred to the banjo.

Tony also scores a bull's-eye in defining the bum-diddy as a compound stroke. John Gribble also
refers to this in citing the mid-19th century banjo manuals. In Rice's 1858 tutor, the bum-diddy
is the combination of two strokes; the "half" which is the "bum", and the "strike" which is the two eighth notes (the second of which is a 5th string note). In Rice's parlance, the "bum-diddy" is a "half and a strike".

The bum-diddy rhythmically speaking is merely a quarter and two eighth note combination which is a common rhythm. As noted above, the exclusive use of any rhytmic pattern becomes monotonous. It is easy enough to vary

Clawdan - Posted - 04/12/2010:  08:33:32

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Pete Seeger creation in relation to his basic song accompaniment stroke. Finger picks up (bum), hand strums down (did), thumb plucks (dy) leaving the hand to come up again with the next bum. Works great as ONE song accompaniment pattern but not all. Since for many years Pete's book was the ONLY book, that was the mantra. Unfortunately, Pete didn't play what we today call "old time" music, but rather was a folk singer (old time in and of itself for sure) using a banjo rather than a banjo player who sang.

Musically put it is the quarter - eighth- eighth or equivalent and many theories can be made as to what that equates to in other instruments but it only gives you the down beat (first eighth note) of the first full beat and assumes no back beat note for melody or rhythm on the first beat, so to get a note in that spot, you must hammer, pull, slide or otherwise play that 2nd half of the first beat with your left hand. Double/drop thumb does it with the right giving you way more flexibility in both tune and potential rhythmic variety.

SO, now you are totally confused, right?

Interesting side note: When Pete DOES introduce his version of double thumb, his "stroke" essentially becomes old time fingerpicking with finger thumb finger thumb where the finger strokes are up not down as in clawhammer. Also interesting is how in the intro to the current version of Pete's book (and many earlier versions) he says he would have NEVER taught that stroke first.

It's a useful stroke just not the first basic or only one.

So, as I used to sign,
Play nice,
Dan "ain't no bum ditty" Levenson
clawdan.com
clawcamp east coming right up! clawcamp.com

Jim Yates - Posted - 04/12/2010:  09:36:09

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Dan "ain't no bum ditty" Levinson said,"Works great as ONE song accompaniment pattern but not all. Since for many years Pete's book was the ONLY book, that was the mantra."
I agree that it's not good for all situations, but so did Pete. His book taught both up-picking and frailing(both of these with hammers, pulls or drop thumb notes on the beat after the "bum" and with single notes or rests on the "did"). He also taught other two and three finger styles, including bluegrass (A full version of FMB) plus blues banjo, rhumba banjo, lullaby licks in 3/4 and 4/4 and even some classical tunes. I haven't looked in that old red book for years, and I'm sure that I've forgotten something else, but he sure wasn't a strict "bum -diddy" guy. My wife and I went to see him a few months back and he still isn't.

Dan also says,"Also interesting is how in the intro to the current version of Pete's book (and many earlier versions) he says he would have NEVER taught that stroke first.
Pete also wrote this in Johnny Appleseed Jr., the column he used to write for Sing Out! . It's interesting that the theme song for his TV show, Rainbow Quest, was frailed, not up-picked.

Another observation from Dan - "Interesting side note: When Pete DOES introduce his version of double thumb, his "stroke" essentially becomes old time fingerpicking with finger thumb finger thumb where the finger strokes are up not down as in clawhammer."
This is essentially up-picking with drop thumb. Although i almost never up-pick, whenever I come upon a banjo in gCGBD tuning, I play the version of Skip To My Lou that Pete uses for his introduction to drop thumb.

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Edited by - Jim Yates on 04/12/2010 09:52:18

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 04/12/2010:  15:38:30

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I would like to point out that Pete introduces teh drop thumb only about one page after the Bum-__ Did-dy so he is not to bame for those who only got the first bit and skipped the second. Pete is not to blame for the the prevalence of untalented banjo players with the monotonus sound - they themselves are to blame. He is to blame for calling it a basic stroke but he wasn't trained to be a teacher and he wrote the only book on folk banjo there was, and the book that lead to the rediscovery of tabature.

He is more to be worshipped than blamed.

Thank you Pete.

And thank all those who showed us what you can do with a banjo - like Mike, and Tom Paley. The NLCR was the beginning of the old time revival - just as Pete had revived the 5 string a decade earlier.

Clawdan - Posted - 04/12/2010:  17:22:46

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quote:

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Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

I would like to point out that Pete introduces teh drop thumb only about one page after the Bum-__ Did-dy so he is not to bame for those who only got the first bit and skipped the second. Pete is not to blame for the the prevalence of untalented banjo players with the monotonus sound - they themselves are to blame. He is to blame for calling it a basic stroke but he wasn't trained to be a teacher and he wrote the only book on folk banjo there was, and the book that lead to the rediscovery of tabature.

He is more to be worshipped than blamed.

Thank you Pete.

And thank all those who showed us what you can do with a banjo - like Mike, and Tom Paley. The NLCR was the beginning of the old time revival - just as Pete had revived the 5 string a decade earlier.

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All true all true. No disrespect intended - I'm a Pete fan from WAY back. He does indeed deserve much thanks for all he has done for the banjo. Information often comes across as criticism even when that is not the intent.
Play nice,
Dan

ChuckJo - Posted - 04/12/2010:  17:56:57

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I tend to teach true novices with a Bum-Ditty rhythm because it helps me teach how to hear and how to keep a steady beat. I tend to teach songs before tunes, because the words can make it easier to keep the melody. I use Groundhog, Ya Gotta Quit Kickin' My Dog Around, Shady Grove, Stay All Nigh, Buffalo Gals, and Cripple Creek. I use G tuning to start because a lot of my students are already familiar with it.

Deering_Dude - Posted - 04/13/2010:  06:38:59

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Perhaps our proclivity to bum-diddy goes back even farther. It is the basis of dactylic hexameter (the epic meter). So Homer and, later, Virgil were both hooked on bum-diddy as well.

Greg Adams - Posted - 04/13/2010:  07:41:00

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Hello everyone,

As "Deering Dude" excellently suggests, the dactylic rhythm has many, larger encompassing uses throughout history. For the banjo, we can see its earliest definitive application (with textual and notational instruction) in Briggs' 1855 banjo instruction book (a product of the banjo's appropriation and use via blackface minstrelsy).

Yet, other rhythmic names can also be used to characterize banjo playing technique based on the time and context in which it was used. Phil Rice in 1858 would call the bum-diddy (dactylic, or, long-short-short) rhythm a "half strike/strike." This means little to most people, but when investigating banjo playing technique in the 19th century suggests much deeper musical ideas. When we contextualize its use with a variety of other documented rhythms applied to the banjo, we find a broader musical universe. What is beautiful is that while we can use different words to describe a popularly used rhythm, it becomes a fascinating experience when we explore its use in different situations.

(Other technical terms that can be applied to banjo playing technique but which don't necessarily have commonly used names includes, but is not limited to: anapestic=short-short-long; trochaic=long-short; iambi=short-long [some people call this rhythm the "Scotch-snap"; amphibrach=short-long-short [i.e., the syncopated rhythm often associated with ragtime]).

If you really want to dive into this stuff in a self-guided way, check out Bob Winans recent work on this important, related topic: sites.google.com/a/wildblue.ne...ncopation

Finally, not intending this to be a shameless plug (but I suppose it is--sorry), Tim Twiss and I are offering people the opportunity to learn more about the historical application of the dactylic/bum-diddy rhythm (and many other unique technical/rhythmic applications) in Harpers Ferry, WV at the end of May: facebook.com/event.php?eid=325327377562). It is an event we are organizing through the National Park Service and is meant to accessibly share the many facets of 19th century playing technique as well as deeper components of the banjo's African American and multicultural history.

Thanks for such a great thread,
Greg

John Herrington - Posted - 04/13/2010:  13:55:00

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My, oh My, Oh My,
I thought I might be kicking over a can of worms when I started this thing, but I never dreamed that all you country folk who play all of this "old time" music in the wonderful expressions I have long admired were able to express yourselves so profoundly...

Wonderful! I admit to a little education, myself, but I don't believe I've ever heard such profound discription of such a practice that obviously came to us from the smell of the fruit in that ancient garden, Eden. I never dreamed that this simple little hill billy name, "bum ditty" could have existed so long and come so far to us in this enlightened age. Wow! Amazing! Why it plumb is a comfort to know that that ol' Shepherd boy/King who used to play his harp for Saul, brought him out of his wild moments with the beat we all use today. And all of them Psalms he wrote, if sung rightly, must have rung with true bum ditty time at the touch of ol' Davids fingers!

Profound, folks...keep it up. You may jes' lift me up in the dignity of my own playing...and living...who knows? Jes' kidding! Obviously I'm plumb hopeless!

Old John on the Big Horn

Jim Yates - Posted - 04/14/2010:  08:27:32

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Old Woodchuck said, (Pete Seeger) wrote the only book on folk banjo there was, and the book that lead to the rediscovery of tabature.

He is more to be worshipped than blamed.

Thank you Pete.

And thank all those who showed us what you can do with a banjo - like Mike, and Tom Paley. The NLCR was the beginning of the old time revival - just as Pete had revived the 5 string a decade earlier.

Pete was also to blame for coining the terms "hammering on" and "pulling off". If I recall correctly, didn't Mike help Pete with the bluegrass chapter of his book?

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Edited by - Jim Yates on 04/14/2010 08:29:24

Deering_Dude - Posted - 04/14/2010:  08:48:22

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Jim, you're right about Mike helping Pete with the bluegrass section, as I remember it (at least with Foggy Mountain Breakdown).

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 04/14/2010:  13:33:42

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Dan,
I didn't mean to sound as if I was against your post. Pete does indeed say he would do things differently now, but I still think the book is an amazing collection of nuggets that can teach us a lot about playing and teaching both And of course Pete pretty much created the folk revival of the 50s, leading the way to the string band revival of the 70s & 80s and the revival of that revival going on right now. I doubt I would have gone to the Club 47 in the early 60s if it weren't for Pete, Mike, Peggy, Jean Ritchie, Mississippi John, and a bunch of others who brought the music to me and eventually converted my Flamenco soul.