BConk - Posted - 11/14/2009:  09:47:31

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quote:

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Originally posted by BanjoDiva

You do not understand the first amendment. It protects you only from having the government infringe on your speech. This forum is privately owned and therefore you have no right to free speech here.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Nosferatu

Free speech is a deal between the Gov and you. BHO, being privately owned, doesn't fall under constitutional law. It may be edited as the owner sees fit such as not permitting political topics, religous debates or porn.

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I'd be inclined to agree 100% but for the fact that I seem to recall, back in the early 80's when I worked on the maintenance crew of a major shopping mall in the Taubman Company.

They used to let various non profit groups set up booths, etc. to distribute information in the common areas of their shopping malls. From what I recall - when they refused that right to the Ku Klux Klan, they sued Taubman on the grounds that their rights to free speech were denied - and WON.

As I recall - the court decided that the malls had become pretty much the equivalent of a public space even though they were private property. Taubman was forced to, either allow the KKK to set up booths in their malls - or restrict any and all groups from the privilege of using their malls to distribute information. It could not allow one and not the other.

Taubman opted for the latter course and we employees where then instructed to escort any and all pamphleteers from the premises.

I'm not sure what this means for the BHO - if anything - or even if I recall the incident correctly - but if I do then I've seen what's happened when other private properties that have lots of visitors get sued for curtailing the rights of free speech. and it doesn't always pan out as one might suspect.



"Defender of the Sacred Cod"
Capio pisces, ergo sum

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Edited by - BConk on 11/14/2009 09:53:47

BC Bill - Posted - 11/14/2009:  10:32:18

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I taught 'writing', both creative and expository, at the University level for almost 35 years. During that time, I came to the conclusion that the 'written word' is the least effective means of communicating ever devised. Almost 80% of the communication tools that we use when speaking face to face, are lost when writing (inflection, body attitude, facial expression, etc.). The result is the significant likelihood of an incomplete or misleading message, and a very good possibility, even in the face of a clear and precise message, of misunderstanding on the part of the reader.

I think a lot of the frustration expressed in 'suspect' threads, or responses in those threads arise from this problem. Often, as in this thread, someone makes, what they see as, an innocent remark, and find they have angered, distressed or confused someone else. This can snowball quickly and the disconnect can increase rather than become resolved as the responses fly back and forth.

In those cases, perhaps if someone less passionately involved with the misunderstanding pointed out that the problem may simply be rhetorical and not diabolical, things could be brought back into focus.

As well, I think that 'freedom of speech' is not only the right to express opposed, conflicting point of view. It is also the right to be stupid. That happens to the best of us sometimes.

Bill


email me at lakesidestudio@shaw.ca

Brian T - Posted - 11/14/2009:  14:36:25

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I had the good fortune to chair several groups with substantial budgets. There were council/board/committee members that came just to gas on during the meetings.
As chair, I announced that the meetings would be conducted according to Robert's Rules of Order. You either speak, precisely, to the issue or zip-your-lip. If you don't, it is the chair's privilege to cut you off and invite the next person in the speakers' list (which I kept) to make their contribution.

The results were always the same. Smooth, efficient meetings which hummed right along with contented contributors. Issues were discussed then they either lived or died by the motion.

Even now, I don't want static and bafflegab to intrude on any subject which intruiges me. This, to me was the problem. Having said that, I can always use a dose of MG's humor.

We do not know where we are going.
Nor do most of us care.
For us, it is enough that we are on our way.
Le Matelot

jbanjoist - Posted - 11/14/2009:  20:38:45

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Well daggone Brian if we didn't have "static and bafflegab" we wouldn't have a hangout.

LOL!

Jbanjoist
I'm a NECHVILLIAN!

EDUMACATE YOSEF!

You don't know until you KNOW.

Post unto others as you would have them post unto you.

Dubz - Posted - 11/15/2009:  02:14:30

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So putting all the fluff in this thread aside, I guess the majority think that threads are too quickly locked down in recent times and steps are being taken, thanks to Eric, to rectify this. Glad I started the thread and some good came of it. Thanks all that contributed.

Doc Watson - "Somebody asked me once, how do you learn to play that good?.....You practice like the devil"

kevin0461 - Posted - 11/15/2009:  03:33:56

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quote:

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Almost 80% of the communication tools that we use when speaking face to face, are lost when writing (inflection, body attitude, facial expression, etc.). The result is the significant likelihood of an incomplete or misleading message, and a very good possibility, even in the face of a clear and precise message, of misunderstanding on the part of the reader.

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You hit the nail right on the head.

Thanks Bill!!

kevin0461 - Posted - 11/15/2009:  03:38:47

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Thanks again Dubz!! This was an awesome thread. It's always nice to see someone not beat around the bush and state the obvious.

I think the days of political correctness are slowly coming to an end. People are growing tired of having to watch what they say and to whom they say it... God forbid you hurt someone's feelings for stating the obvious.

Texasbanjo - Posted - 11/15/2009:  11:30:51

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My thoughts about that are: people aren't polite and pleasant anymore, they are rude and crude and think it's "cute" to be so. I think it's from watching too much "reality TV" and trying to be as nasty and awful as those people. I'm not talking about everyone, but there are quite a few that could really benefit from some lessons on common courtesy and respect for others.

Let's Pick!
Texas Banjo

kevin0461 - Posted - 11/15/2009:  12:17:53

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Texas Banjo... don't get me wrong... it's never right to be rude, crude or cruel to anyone. It is possible to shed the PC and still be respectful of others.

In this case Dubz was neither, rude, crude or cruel to anyone. He was stating the obvious as he saw it and was respectful in doing so without beating around the bush. You gotta respect him for that.

BConk - Posted - 11/15/2009:  13:08:06

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I think there's a whole range of variations in what individuals perceive as "polite" and "impolite".

With many people - simply disagreeing with them, no matter how politely it's done, is impolite in itself.

I see this here all the time. Someone starts a thread that says something - 15 people chime in ageeing with that person and then the 16th does not agree. The OP will treat it as if the person's "raining on their parade" or something and they can get very ticked off about it.

In years past I've had people fly off the handle at me for simply disagreeing with them - No name calling on my part, nothing impolite, no personal attack - just disagreement and an explanation of why I did so. I'm talking about people that the vast majority of other people here would think were very "polite" people themselves. In my experience they can turn into nasty and vindictive demons in an instant. And, ironically, some of these people are the very same that will be among the first to tell you how impolite our society has become.

I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of members here viewed me as being impolite. I enjoy discussion and debate and I rarely hesitate to disagree if I think someone is wrong. But I also rarely, if ever, engage in personal attacks. I do my best to follow the rule "Criticizing a concept is ok--criticizing the person is not." but some people can't separate the two when it's thier concept being criticized.

This is an open forum - if people commit their thoughts to words for 45,000 others to read they shouldn't become nonplussed if someone disagrees with them no matter how many other have already agreed. They should EXPECT it. And if they can't handle people disagreeing with them then they really shouldn't be posting their thoughts.



"Defender of the Sacred Cod"
Capio pisces, ergo sum

BConk - Posted - 11/15/2009:  13:09:42

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quote:

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Originally posted by Brian T

I had the good fortune to chair several groups with substantial budgets. There were council/board/committee members that came just to gas on during the meetings.
As chair, I announced that the meetings would be conducted according to Robert's Rules of Order. You either speak, precisely, to the issue or zip-your-lip. If you don't, it is the chair's privilege to cut you off and invite the next person in the speakers' list (which I kept) to make their contribution.

The results were always the same. Smooth, efficient meetings which hummed right along with contented contributors. Issues were discussed then they either lived or died by the motion.

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Yeah but if we had to abide by Robert's Rules of Order this place would be as dull as a budget meeting



"Defender of the Sacred Cod"
Capio pisces, ergo sum

Dubz - Posted - 11/15/2009:  16:27:17

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There is just no excuse for being crude or cruel in this forum or at all in life. I think the fact it gets heated so often is because too many times people get off topic and take things out of context and it gets a bit frustrating for the person trying to make the thread come to some logical conclusion, after all that's why people post usually. But yeah I agree with the statement above about how some think its cute to be rude, its usually the people who are limited or cornered in a conversation and turn to the easiest mechanism of making themselves look important and that is to put others down.

Doc Watson - "Somebody asked me once, how do you learn to play that good?.....You practice like the devil"

Bill Rogers - Posted - 11/16/2009:  00:33:01

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I agree with Brian about personal attacks versus disagreeing with concepts and ideas. Unfortunately, too many posters believe that a disagreement with their opinion is a personal attack. If someone's offering up opinions for discussion, he or she must expect disagreement and should understand that simply disagreeing with a person and giving reasons for that disagreement is not a personal attack. The same disagreement prefaced with "Only a moronic fool would believe such garbage..." is indeed a personal attack even if not pointed directly at the poster. But it's simply wrong to assume such a statement is implicit in any disagreement.

Bill

kevin0461 - Posted - 11/16/2009:  02:19:14

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quote:

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"Criticizing a concept is ok--criticizing the person is not."

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I like that!!!

Kevin

Brian T - Posted - 11/16/2009:  08:13:37

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HA! "Budget dullness" is like watching paint dry. I really let the discussions get wild and hairy with one caveat: you had to throw rocks at the issue NOT the speaker. If those qualifying phrases were pruned off and the contribution really was relevant to the topic of the thread, away we go.

Try this: sometimes, there were issues that came up, were thrashed in discussion, and I could sense that everybody disliked what we all found. To get rid of it quickly, I'd move that we adopt the measure and call the question. Then the thing would be soundly defeated, swept into the rubbish and we'd move on.

Speaking of thread, anybody got some brown? Or is this turning brown? I must eat something.

We do not know where we are going.
Nor do most of us care.
For us, it is enough that we are on our way.
Le Matelot

rjanecek - Posted - 11/20/2009:  09:45:01

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wow

Nosferatu - Posted - 11/20/2009:  09:57:09

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quote:

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Originally posted by kevin0461

quote:

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"Criticizing a concept is ok--criticizing the person is not."

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I like that!!!

Kevin

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That's a quote for the BHO rules.

jbanjoist - Posted - 11/20/2009:  15:31:02

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yeah but the person who's concept is being criticized usually takes it as if they are being criticized and the post goes to crap anyway 90% of the time.

Nosferatu - Posted - 11/20/2009:  15:39:51

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That goes for movies, cars, girlfriends and anything you can think of.

I remember asking my mom..."Now don't get mad at me for saying this," and she'd already be mad, "but I don't like that color." Then she'd have her dukes up.

BConk - Posted - 11/20/2009:  19:31:59

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Hugh - you're forgetting the corollary rule when dealing with the female of the species:

Criticize the concept, not the color

Don Borchelt - Posted - 11/21/2009:  06:46:32

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Well, this raises an important question about this rule. If we criticize a moderator's actions in a specific instance, are we violating this rule? I assume that we are not, since I'm still here. I think that we don't violate the rule against personal criticism as long as we are not impugning the moderator's good intentions, motives, or character. Still, at least by implication, we are suggesting a momentary lapse in judgment. I personally think there needs to be a "feedback loop," for the BHO to function well and grow. But I suspect at least some of the mods disagree with me on this.

- Don Borchelt

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Edited by - Don Borchelt on 11/21/2009 06:47:42

Poppy - Posted - 11/21/2009:  07:10:54

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Don,we are only human and yes we make mistakes. some take the chance to over react and they just want to run off that the mouth, or fingers, when this happens. the folks that have been here awhile know this, and they know the situation is usually fixed. got a problem with a moderator, let eric know. when folks get all excited and post long winded threads on how bad the mods are, and how we do things just because we can, i think they will find their posts, and i mean every post,will be looked at under a microscope(that's just human nature). to answer your question, if we mess up let us know, or let eric know, if we're wrong it'll be fixed, if we're right you'll get an explaination. Don't go off on a rant on how we're all power crazy, or do things just because we can, and how if you owned the site you'd do this or that, no problem. we're no different from anybody else. If there is a single person here who has never made a mistake, please by all means let me know so I can learn from them.

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Edited by - Poppy on 11/21/2009 07:24:08

Nosferatu - Posted - 11/21/2009:  11:08:56

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Criticizing a Mod in not unlike giving a cop a hard time when he clocks you on radar doing 100 MPH in a school zone. He has you dead to rights but one still argues. Take the ticket because you did break the rules AND most know it, or save it for court.

janolov - Posted - 11/21/2009:  12:58:46

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My experience is that you usually lose if you try to debate with the mods in a thread. It's better to email the mod in question, or Eric, if you think the mod have made a wrong decision.

Poppy - Posted - 11/21/2009:  13:09:52

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like I said we're only human, so yes we make mistakes, and if you think we did, send us, or Eric a PM, if you call us out in public, and you are wrong, then comes the hard feels from both side, that is just the way the human brain works. If I'm wrong, and I have been in the past, it'll get changed. Same with any mod. we're the same as anybody. Some think just because we have the power to lock a thread, or edit, we do without anyone questioning it, WRONG, we are accountable to the other mods, to Eric, and to the members here. Hugh was a mod when this place was like a wild west town, threads had to be locked, accounts locks, folks getting nasty all the time, and folks ask why not politics and religious topics? well we tried that, and it was some bad folks who normally were so great would just go crazy, nasty replies, loads of name calling, it was even so bad folks were wanting to exchange addresses so they could meet to"settle"the matter.
So to make it simple, free speech is not dead, just ability to get nasty, and try to force your will on others.

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Edited by - Poppy on 11/21/2009 13:10:43

Nosferatu - Posted - 11/21/2009:  13:25:16

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Yep, I even had members threaten to kill me. I had one fellow find me in the park one day and when he saw me...He decided NOT to engage me in a fight. But....



I still think that those that are itching for a fight should get it and then they should have their ears cuffed and then locked out.


Thank you,
"Count" Hugh

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Edited by - Nosferatu on 11/21/2009 13:27:41

kevin0461 - Posted - 11/21/2009:  13:31:29

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Holy crap!!! That must have been a pretty serious topic...

Nosferatu - Posted - 11/21/2009:  13:45:28

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It really wasn't, I still have the topic and the email. The guys I pick with are my "Brothers." I pick with Army SF, LA Cops, My best friend is "Brown Water Navy" and old school H.A. and I fit in with them. No one in his right mind woud start a fight with me when I'm with my friends or alone.

Thank you,
"Count" Hugh

kevin0461 - Posted - 11/21/2009:  13:55:24

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I just can't believe some people though. Some people just take things way too serious and way too far. I'm still saying HOLY CRAP to the whole situation!!!

BConk - Posted - 11/21/2009:  19:55:59

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quote:

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Originally posted by kevin0461

I'm still saying HOLY CRAP to the whole situation!!!

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don't be dragging religion into this now

billkozz - Posted - 11/26/2009:  12:34:39

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Over the following weeks, I perfected the process and my skin cleared completely. I went to bed and hoped for the best. I woke up the next morning and my skin looked much better. I decided "what the heck--I'm using a bunch of this stuff." Yup, it sounds simple and it is. Roughly 13 years ago, at my wit's end one evening, I stood holding a tube of 2.5% benzoyl peroxide while looking in the mirror at new pimples that had shown up that day. acne free I had nothing to lose, so I applied a lot more than usual. I thought it must have been a fluke, but day after day as I continued using plenty of 2.5% benzoyl peroxide my spots faded. The best medication I tried was benzoyl peroxide, but it still didn't totally clear my skin. acne freeI suffered with acne throughout my adolescence and early adulthood. Some cleared me up a little bit, but not enough to satisfy me. I experimented with every conceivable acne treatment, including Retin-a, antibiotics, Cleocin-t, sulfur, salicylic acid, and several others

Nosferatu - Posted - 11/26/2009:  12:38:02

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billkozz:

Join the Army and get that cleared up.

billkozz - Posted - 11/26/2009:  18:13:52

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isn't that post freakin hilarious??? I found that on another website.
Glad someone enjoyed it.

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Edited by - billkozz on 11/26/2009 18:21:24

Banjocoltrane - Posted - 12/01/2009:  13:40:26

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quote:

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Originally posted by Nosferatu

Criticizing a Mod in not unlike giving a cop a hard time when he clocks you on radar doing 100 MPH in a school zone. He has you dead to rights but one still argues. Take the ticket because you did break the rules AND most know it, or save it for court.

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Bad analogy.
Posting on the BHO isn't a moving violation that can be clocked with a radar gun........radar guns can even be off when they aren't calibrated, but I think they are a whole lot more scientific than the moderators decisions on this website.

Decisions of moderators on this forum are influenced by their own culture, background, beliefs, etc. In fact, the moderators "enforce" rules that are highly open to interpretation. Of course this is true, our judicial system is a long ways from getting it "right" every time.

Anyways, I read the Janet Davis thread referred to here. In my opinion, I don't see what was wrong with it. Personally, I think he should have CALLED the company and discussed his problems, or simply chose not to buy from Janet Davis. However, I don't see where the rules were broke. I'm glad Eric unlocked it.

I currently have an issue with a company due to them not sending me any email confirmations, notifications of shipping date changes, and a rude employee. However, I will talk to the person in charge and if at that time I don't get an apology or "answer" I'll post it on the internet. There is a time for everything, steps to be followed if you will.

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Edited by - Banjocoltrane on 12/01/2009 13:49:50

tanglefingers - Posted - 12/29/2009:  21:11:07

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Yep, I even had members threaten to kill me. I had one fellow find me in the park one day and when he saw me...He decided NOT to engage me in a fight.


lol ...wuz you packin dat Bulldog Nos?

dmiller - Posted - 12/29/2009:  22:49:44

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Freedom of speech here at the Hang Out??? I want my "clickable sig line" back.