Rollingwolf - Posted - 10/01/2009:  09:37:14

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I have a banjo that's less than a month old and the frosting on my Taiwanese Remo has already worn off where I plant my fingers.
Yes, I play a lot, but that ridiculous.

Don't get me wrong, I like a worn in head, but not after a month! I feel like you should earn your wear, not just scratch it off.

Are there any heads with the thicker frosting that don't flake off right away? Huber, Snuffy etc?
Or is this the way it is?

BTW it's on a custom banjo with FF rim and Crowe ring.


www.frankenpinemusic.com

1four5 - Posted - 10/01/2009:  09:50:35

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I've done the same thing on my Deering heads. Now I'm playing 5-Star heads, and they are bullet proof. One of mine it two years old, and a little windex at string change, and it looks brand new again.

Dean

dpete210 - Posted - 10/01/2009:  09:52:03

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Rolling wolf, this is very common. One of the ways to minimize the paint peel off is to keep your fingernails short on your picking hand so they are not scraping the head as you pick, but otherwise, it is probably inevitable that it will happen. Some heads, not just the Remos, seem to lose the paint easier or faster than others, but if you look at other banjo players' banjo heads, you will see that it is very common. It is almost like a badge of honor to have that happen.

Edit. I've got a Snuffy Smith, which is a Remo head with additional frost applied, which has not started to peel despite lots of playing. It shows some sign of skin oil on it that I try to clean once in awhile. Another of my banjos has a Remo head that has not started to wear off paint. It's not just the Remo heads that peel.

Any day playing music is a GOOD day.

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Edited by - dpete210 on 10/01/2009 10:00:21

beegee - Posted - 10/01/2009:  09:58:17

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Get a can of spray Kilz and spray it "new" again.

__________________________
"It is better, of course, to know useless things than to know nothing." -Seneca

Surveyor - Posted - 10/01/2009:  10:31:06

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Spray Kilz, that was funny right there. I don't care who you are.

Mr. B

Wind me up and watch me go!

beegee - Posted - 10/01/2009:  10:34:56

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quote:

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Originally posted by Surveyor

Spray Kilz, that was funny right there. I don't care who you are.

Mr. B

Wind me up and watch me go!

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what snuffy uses...



__________________________
"It is better, of course, to know useless things than to know nothing." -Seneca

banjobilly32 - Posted - 10/01/2009:  10:54:45

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Get a can of spray Kilz and spray it "new" again. Quote

Jeez Beegee, I thought I was the only one who knew ! I've been spraying my heads for about 5 years now. I tried it first on my tenor, it stayed nice ever since! Kilz seems indestructible! I heard many years ago this is what Snuffy uses to make his premium coated heads too.

I even sprayed a couple skin heads that were real grungy with the same success.

I have a good supply of used heads which I dip into when I'm restoring El Cheapo banjos. I just cean them and spray with Kilz. They do look better than new, almost like a premium calfskin head.

Have you noticed any difference in the tone of your sprayed heads?

Bill Dailey

Grey Dog - Posted - 10/01/2009:  11:03:12

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hahahaa!!

Nice.

I like my 5-star, like 1four5 above.
Good and solid.

I don't bother with Remo anymore (too thin): I am split between a 5-star and a selmer-ludwig.

][ Grey Dog in NH

Klondike Waldo - Posted - 10/01/2009:  11:57:39

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quote:

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Originally posted by Grey Dog

hahahaa!!

Nice.

I like my 5-star, like 1four5 above.
Good and solid.

I don't bother with Remo anymore (too thin): I am split between a 5-star and a selmer-ludwig.

][ Grey Dog in NH

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Doesn't Selmer-Ludwig actually produce the 5 Star?

I'll never play like Earl Scruggs or sing like Luciano Pavarotti, but I'll pick better than Luciano and sing tenor better than Earl
deligo ergo renideo,
Bob Cameron

miiloo - Posted - 10/01/2009:  12:29:04

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Dave,
I think your skin oil is probably toxic.
Milo

vtyankee5 - Posted - 10/01/2009:  12:34:29

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Been using Kilz on heads for a few years now. Snuffy sure has the right idea. Make sure to use oil based Kils. Stuff is indestructible. Dirt cleans up with windex during a string change. Spray your Taiwan head. It will last forever plus some.

Grey Dog - Posted - 10/01/2009:  12:48:54

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quote:

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Originally posted by Klondike Waldo


Doesn't Selmer-Ludwig actually produce the 5 Star?

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No idea....But that would easily explain why I like them both. The Selmer is a touch heavier/thicker than the 5-star, I think.

][ Grey Dog in NH

BNJOMAKR - Posted - 10/01/2009:  13:15:15

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I have a 5 Star that I put on my archtop a few years back. It became soiled and I tried to clean it with windex and the frosting softened and started pealing off. I was told that the frosting had been changed to a water-based formula and that they had so much trouble with them "prematurely" pealing that 5 Star changed the formula back and recalled the heads. Does anyone know it that is true?
Thanks!

"Those who never try... never will!"

BNJOMAKR

Hazen - Posted - 10/01/2009:  14:14:57

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It must be the brick mason hands that caused my five star to lose the coating in 3 months. Of course I may be
planting to hard.

Kevin B - Posted - 10/01/2009:  17:26:54

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Here on the BHO a few years ago people noted that a batch of Ludwig heads branded for other company's got out that had problems with peeling frosting. I had a FQMS branded head but it happened with other branded Ludwig heads to. I seem to remember reading that the problem was short lived and subsequent batches were corrected.

One answer to this is an inside frosted or solid white head. A drawback to that according to some is that the frosting helps to keep the bridge from sliding. But, I have used smooth heads without bridge movement problems.

Kevin ( )=='=~

'Possum, It's what's for dinner . . ."

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Edited by - Kevin B on 10/01/2009 17:27:27

stanger - Posted - 10/01/2009:  18:10:17

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quote:

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Originally posted by BNJOMAKR

I have a 5 Star that I put on my archtop a few years back. It became soiled and I tried to clean it with windex and the frosting softened and started pealing off. I was told that the frosting had been changed to a water-based formula and that they had so much trouble with them "prematurely" pealing that 5 Star changed the formula back and recalled the heads. Does anyone know it that is true?
Thanks!

"Those who never try... never will!"

BNJOMAKR

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Yup. I ended up with 4 of them. Stew-Mac sure didn't recall mine, though- I still have one, peeling away, on one of my banjos. The problem was short-lived, and well in the past now... it occurred around 2004.
The Stew-Mac heads are all opaque white under the frosting, so even when the frosting is completely worn away, they still look good when cleaned up, and the loss of the frosting is almost invisible. The frosting itself wears far longer than the Remo stuff.


Kilz works fine, but it isn't as good as some more esoteric stuff I've discovered in my constant tinkering with art materials. My favorite frosting material by far is made by Golden, a high-end acrylic paint company that specializes in the best artist's acrylic paint made. The brand is hard to find, but can be found in good art and crafts shops. There are other brands, but not as good as Golden in purity and lightfastness.

Golden makes a line of gesso and modeling pastes to accompany their paints, and their Absorbent Ground, a product designed to have the qualities of hand-made paper for use on wood, plastic or other surfaces, is simply the best for frosting a banjo head. It requires careful brushing, but can be applied in thin layers until you have just the right thickness you want, and it outwears anything else by years and years. I tinkered enought to learn how to imitate the look and feel of sprayed frosting, but I found I liked a slightly smoother texture, sort of like a sprayed head that has been lightly sanded.
Applying it isn't very difficult, but it requires some practice on an old head and patience, because it requires at least a week of drying and curing time before the head is ready to mount.

For a while, I was buying slick white heads and using the Absorbent Ground for frosting, but after I switched to the Renaissance heads, I quit. I might do another one to replace a skin head on one of my banjos, though. One of the coolest things about the material is, with careful airbrushing, a regular Remo can be a dead ringer for a skin head in looks and tone. The stuff is way spendy, though- a small jar costs a bunch more than a can of Kilz. A small jar is enough to do about 4 or 5 heads once you get the hang of applying it.
regards,
stanger

The pen is mightier than the pigs.

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Edited by - stanger on 10/01/2009 18:13:00

Boringperson - Posted - 10/02/2009:  03:51:59

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May I ask what might be a risable question?

Why do they put frosting on heads at all? Is it simply decorative or is it intended to affect the sound of the instrument?

Mark

'Ya' eat one lousy foot, they call ya' a cannibal the rest of your life.' Dan Torrence, The Big Bus

banjobilly32 - Posted - 10/02/2009:  04:38:10

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<Why do they put frosting on heads at all? Is it simply decorative or is it intended to affect the sound of the instrument?>

Mark, I think they are striving to make it look like the old calfskin head. The older plastic heads had much more coating plus were more durable as I recall.

steve davis - Posted - 10/02/2009:  04:50:23

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My banjos sound the best to me with a Remo head and a minimal amount of frosting.I get a wider range of bass response and power with these heads.

Rollingwolf - Posted - 10/02/2009:  04:52:02

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I might have to experiment with Kilz or the Golden Absorbant ground. I sprayed fixative on a Deering head before installing it once. Stranger, did you brush on the ground, or use a spray? Do you dillute it?

Mark, frosting definately effects tone. Clear heads are much brighter. I like a darker tone, so I like my banjo heads how I like my birthday cake: lots of frosting!

www.frankenpinemusic.com

desert rose - Posted - 10/02/2009:  05:44:08

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WARNING

Change the frosting thickness changes the tone

Be advised

Scott

Desert Rose Musical Instruments
www.desertrosebanjo.com

steve davis - Posted - 10/02/2009:  05:55:56

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I like a darker tone,too.
I can't get a dark tone from 5 Star or Snuffy's extra frosting heads.

My favorite sounding tones come from old Remo heads with great big worn off frosting streaks where my fingers touch the head.

dpeacock1 - Posted - 10/02/2009:  06:02:24

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WARNING!!!!!!!

Frustration over frost wear can lead to....... "Frostration"

Doug

Enjoy the music!

Banjophobic - Posted - 10/02/2009:  07:24:33

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You can also just learn to accept the fact that frosting wears and that its no big deal...just a thought.

Boringperson - Posted - 10/02/2009:  07:27:32

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Billy - I suppose the diffuse finish of a frosted head resmbles calfskin but for me the charm of skin is the non-uniform colouring. That organic look makes it more, well, home-made I suppose. (For me 'home-made' is a wonderful compliment!)

And once I'd given it some thought it seemed obvious that a uniformly smooth head would vibrate differently from one with a'frosty' texture. Intuitively it seems to me that frosting would just take the edge off a very bright sound.

Most interesting.

Mark

'Ya' eat one lousy foot, they call ya' a cannibal the rest of your life.' Dan Torrence, The Big Bus

dpeacock1 - Posted - 10/02/2009:  07:30:19

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Thanks John.
That's the best way to look at it....if you play your banjo regular, it's going to show in more ways than one.

Doug

Enjoy the music!

steve davis - Posted - 10/02/2009:  07:48:01

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I like that "distressed" look.

goldtopia - Posted - 10/02/2009:  09:53:36

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I stick a piece of transparent tape, called magic tape, where the little finger rests on the head and gives no problem at all. Without it, it would wear the surface to appear transparent . I have this on a Fitch and a Gold Tone banjo and it works well..

Bill.O

www.bluegrassminstrels.co.uk

bango - Posted - 10/02/2009:  11:09:38

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My soft computer fingers turned the coating on my last 5-Star to peeling sunburn skin pretty quick. Plus my pinky stuck to it, making a Scotch Tape noise when I picked up my hand. Pretty annoying. Kilz worked pretty well; so did throwing it away.

stanger - Posted - 10/04/2009:  07:11:27

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Hi, Rolling...
The Absorbent Ground has to be brushed on. It is designed to be used straight from the jar with no dilution, and is way too thick to be sprayed... it's about the consistency of water-based house paint.
A 1" brush works fine. I feather the material where the brush strokes are next to each other, and if it's a little too lumpy and bumpy after drying, it's easy to level with some 600 grit sandpaper on a block. I usually lay 2 coats on a clear head, and level sand the first. Sometimes I leave the light brush strokes, which can produce a texture very similar to skin, as is on the final coat.
It isn't necessary to use any thing else. The stuff is designed to be real sticky- a ground isn't supposed to ever come off- and since it's pure acrylic like the head, it never has a chemical reaction with the head.

You can also sand the Kilz, but it goes on lighter, so you need more coats to prevent a sand-through.
Using either is a cool way to get a head thickness that can really suit a person's tonal taste. And you don't need a clear head to start with- either product will stick to a head that's already frosted.

The Absorbent Ground also can be lightly tinted if desired with a water-based stain, or even some transparent water-based artist's color. A very light buff-colored head looks wonderful on a banjo with gold plating.
regards,
stanger

(just one R- lots of folks think my handle is stranger, but it's actually my last name. No apology needed- happens all the time. )

quote:

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Originally posted by Rollingwolf

I might have to experiment with Kilz or the Golden Absorbant ground. I sprayed fixative on a Deering head before installing it once. Stranger, did you brush on the ground, or use a spray? Do you dillute it?

Mark, frosting definately effects tone. Clear heads are much brighter. I like a darker tone, so I like my banjo heads how I like my birthday cake: lots of frosting!

www.frankenpinemusic.com

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The pen is mightier than the pigs.

Drivel - Posted - 11/08/2009:  12:38:46

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So.?. It comes in a spray can, and I think I saw it at home depot.

Bill

I thought there were rocks in my path, but each was a stepping-stone.

1+1+1+ Infinity =1

5stringJim - Posted - 11/08/2009:  13:13:45

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Easy solution:- paint the INSIDE of the head with white acrylic (only where you get the normal wear pattern). That way you don't see the wear nearly as much, and it doesn't really affect the tone.
Works for me.

Jim Hyndman www.longway.org.uk

m_watson - Posted - 11/09/2009:  06:50:22

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quote:

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Originally posted by Boringperson

May I ask what might be a risable question?

Why do they put frosting on heads at all? Is it simply decorative or is it intended to affect the sound of the instrument?

Mark

'Ya' eat one lousy foot, they call ya' a cannibal the rest of your life.' Dan Torrence, The Big Bus

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Remo has always been primarily a drum head maker. The coating was probably added to the smooth Mylar to give a rougher surface for drum brush techniques.

--Mike

Rollingwolf - Posted - 11/09/2009:  06:55:55

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I painted the inside of the head, and I'm pleased with the result.
Someday I'd like to try the American Made Max head.

www.frankenpinemusic.com

BrianBanjos - Posted - 11/09/2009:  08:39:19

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One quick observation. In this tread certain heads have once more been described as "bullet proof". Depending on how your closest associates react to the sound of the banjo this attribute *may* be more important than tone or paint quality.

Happy Pickin'
Brian Daniels
Deering Goodtime II
Deering Deluxe
No-Name Asian Rat from dear old Dad
Seagull Mini Jumbo vintage burst cedar and cherry
Tacoma DR-28 Herringbone
Fender Standard Telecaster

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Edited by - BrianBanjos on 11/09/2009 08:40:06

lazyarcher - Posted - 11/09/2009:  09:13:43

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I have found the Snuffy heads to be inconsistant--if he sprays the heads with Kilz, that may be the explaination. I use Steve Hubers heads, and find them very consistant. Frosting wear on them seems to be normal.

Dave Jack