Clawdan - Posted - 07/01/2008:  05:48:29

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Hi Folks,
Odd to be here but hope you don't mind. I am aware that most tenor banjo players tune either GDAE (fiddle tuning) or CGDA low to high. Which is more prevalent? Do you tend to adjust for key running out of notes above (no e) or below (no c)?

Also, do you tend to like tab or do you stay with standard notation? Read both? Mandolin tab would seem to work.

Finally, a reason for asking, I am just finishing up the Mandolin/fiddle version of Old Time Festival Tunes and would be interested in some folks willing to try the tab. The tunes are all transcribed as Standard notation (basic and advanced) and one line of tab.

Looking forward to hearing from a new crew.




Play nice ,
Dan "Ain''t no bum-ditty" Levenson
www.ClawhammerBanjo.us
Come to Clawcamp!

dingo - Posted - 07/01/2008:  06:27:16

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I just got my tenor this summer, I have been playing dulcimer and I am use to using tab. I have started learning to play in CGDA, for lessons, then I change over to GDAE and use a beginner Mandolin book for fun. I am not into music theory, so get lost on a lot of it. I have a fiddle also, but it has been in storage and needs restringing, planning on getting into it this winter.

But yes I would be interested, I like the old traditiional music so that I can still play with my dulcimer friends, just using a different instrument.

Jill

What Happens in the Corn Field, Stays in the Corn Field.

diarmaid - Posted - 07/01/2008:  06:31:26

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in irish music gdae is more prevalent, in jazz cgda is probably still the most common. i tune gdae and never worry about running out of notes as its basically the same as a fiddle but tuned an octave lower, if i need higher notes i just move up the neck though the range accessible in this tuning without moving up the neck is fine for probably 99% of irish tunes.

i rarely try to read any music...i just rely on learning by ear.

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Edited by - diarmaid on 07/01/2008 06:32:16

Gus Bloch - Posted - 07/01/2008:  06:41:54

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I have both an Irish G and a Tenor C. Both work well with mandolin tabs, but yield different keys respectively. I mostly read from standard notation or play by ear. If I cant't sing a melody on one, i try the other for a quick transposition. This helps lead me to the key I really need. Tenor is the Dixieland instrument of choice since it cuts through the horns. Irish is a great melody-maker and is louder and more defined in that role than mandolin. I prefer to start reading with the Irish since it is lower and better suits my voice and covers the range of most melodies in the first position. I like open chords better on tenor because the string tension is higher. Up the neck it seems to be a wash.
I'd love to try out some of your charts and will be glad to offer you constructive feedback.
Regards,
Gus bloch
gusbloch@yahoo.com

Compass56 - Posted - 07/01/2008:  07:39:20

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I do not know which is the more common tuning. I play New Orleans jazz, and I use C,G,D,A exclusively. That fact may be more of a function my personality more than anything else. I like to explore, but I tend to limit my explorations to the possibilities of a single tuning as opposed to exploring different tunings. I play one guitar tuning (standard), one 5-string tuning (open G), one lap steel tuning (F#,A,C#,E,F#,A,C#,E), and as I said, one tenor tuning (C,G,D,A).

Two or more tunings on one instrument is more than my tiny mind can handle.

Tom Banjo - Posted - 07/01/2008:  08:34:12

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You'll get a different answer depending on the group you ask. Jazz players mostly use CGDA, and Irish players use GDAE. I play Irish music and use GDAE. Although I can play from standard notation pretty well with a tinwhistle or flute, I prefer to write it out in tab for banjo. That gives me the skeleton of the tune, and I embellish on that with my own ornamentations and listen to other players to see what variations might work well. I often find that my skill level is too low to successfully to do some of this, but practice makes perfect.
I'd definitely be interested in trying out some old-time tabs.

magnuscanis - Posted - 07/01/2008:  09:09:11

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My direct field experience of tenor banjo players is all in Irish music (I'm the only one I know personally who I've heard play other stuff on a tenor banjo ), and all the players I've met use the GDAE tuning. I know that some of the leading Irish players, for example Gerry O'Connor, use CGDA tuning, however, and similarly I gather that some jazz players use GDAE although CGDA is more common there.

I decided to go along with GDAE when I got my tenor, a couple of months back, since it means I can play all my fiddle tunes in the same key (albeit an octave lower) without having to think too hard, and I still have the option of capoing up if I want to get the higher sound of the CDGA tuning (or anything in between). Also, I rather like the mellower tone of the lower tuning.

Unlike the 5-string banjo, where I prefer to use tab if I'm reading at all (although I try only to do that for learning or reminding myself of tunes), I very much prefer standard notation for tenor banjo or mandolin (or guitar, for that matter, when reading single note melodies). On the mandolin I find tab can be a bit confusing since I use fiddle-style diatonic fingering and tend to think in terms of fingers rather than frets. With the tenor banjo I've so far mostly been playing tunes I already have committed to memory, and most of the stuff I have written down (apart from 5-string or guitar stuff) is in notation in any case so I haven't actually tried tab on tenor banjo.

I found the layout of the Old Time Festival Tunes for 5-String very useful, with the standard notation fiddle melody and 2 versions of the banjo tab (and the tunes nicely spaced out), so I'm sure that a similar thing for fiddles, mandolins and tenor banjos with standard notation and mandolin tab in parallel ought to work equally well and should keep everyone happy, apart from the avid non-readers (who probably wouldn't buy the book anyway, except maybe just for the CD).

BTW Dan, I'd be happy to roadtest the tab (or the standard notation) for you.

- Magnus

mikeyes - Posted - 07/01/2008:  11:37:17

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Dan,

The advantage of notation is that no matter which tuning you use on a tenor banjo, you can play the music. But in a practical sense, since most Irish and OT tunes are in keys that the GDAE tuning is more suited, GDAE tuning is probably the one that most of your customers will use.

For one thing, and I am sure that there will be exceptions, the Irish/OT connection will be much stronger than the Jazz/OT connection and more Irish banjo players in the States will have started out either in OT or Bluegrass.

Also, the GDAE tuning has some special qualities that sound better with OT. The deep bass G notes can be used in the tune or as drones the way the fiddle is used in OT and Irish music. One of the Bruce Molsky albums I have seems to have a GDAE tuned tenor banjo on it if that is any help. I play a GDAE tuned tenor banjo in our OT group and it goes very well with the other instruments including the clawhammer banjo.

There is one exception, one which has not reached a peak yet, and that is the use of the cello banjo in OT music. Cello banjos are tuned CGDA and in the hands of a Marcy Marxer sound terrific. In this configuration the player can either learn to read in C tuning or capo up two frets and play in DAEB tuning which allows for most tunes to be played or counter-tunes used in accompanying a frailed banjo.

I don't use tab with either mandolin or banjo prefering to read notation becaues a vast majority of Irish tunes are in notation and it is easier to learn the tunes.

Then there is the whole controversy about being "tab-bound" that we will not go into at this point :grin:

Mike Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com
http://www.mikekeyes.com

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Edited by - mikeyes on 07/03/2008 13:33:21

Clawdan - Posted - 07/02/2008:  14:00:57

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quote:

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Originally posted by mikeyes

Dan,

The advantage of notation is that no matter which tuning you use on a tenor banjo, you can play the music. But in a practical sense, since most Irish and OT tunes are in keys that the GDAE tuning is more suited, GDAE tuning is probably the one that most of your customers will use.
...

I don't use tab with either mandolin or banjo prefering to read notation becaues a vast majority of Irish tunes are in notation and it is easier to learn the tunes.

Then there is the whole controversy about being "tab-bound" that we will not go into at this point :grin:

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Funny you should mention that Mike. I'm more a standard notation guy when it comes to fiddle and mando also. The main place tab makes sense to me is in an instrument that one, has frets so you have a clear reference point, and two - makes a habit of retuning creating a situation where with s/n you are somehow always transposing (not an insurmountable issue, but it does make a case for tab). I had a mando player ask why I didn't do the "advanced" line in tab too and my response also was, given the choices, tab is most likely used by more basic players and more advanced players can and do read music.

The "market" per se I would believe will be mainly fiddlers and probably those that want involved versions of the tunes and mando players who just often do not play with OT players but want to. The tenor "market" I hope will enjoy the transcriptions and just having the tunes available to them so I will endeavor to title it and have Mel Bay market it accordingly.

BUT, it may be a while until the MB release.

SO, if any of you wish to proof some tunes in standard notation and tab, let me know and I'll send you a few to look at. The goal is to make sure that the "work" and are readable. I'll check in over the weekend to see who is up for it, but please email me directly with your regular email so I can attach the pdf files.

Great to hear there is interest and thanks for the info. Have a careful fourth. (and fifth!)

Play nice ,
Dan "Ain''t no bum-ditty" Levenson
www.ClawhammerBanjo.us
Come to Clawcamp!

Tom Banjo - Posted - 07/02/2008:  19:44:45

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E-mail sent, Dan! :)

Shamrock - Posted - 07/04/2008:  01:36:20

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And one more Email....

gr. Juup


Excuse my English, I think in Dutch

jpmcneely - Posted - 07/05/2008:  15:12:51

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Just to chime in... I learned mando first, and play Irish tunes almost exclusively. GDAE works best for me, but I occasionally tune GDAD if I'm trying to play along with interpretations by Andy Irvine or Donal Lunny. It isn't really necessary, but some of what they do just works better without the long reach. I'm better with standard notation than tab it seems, but I've just been getting the raw ABC notation for tunes lately and reading it directly if I'm already familiar (listening-wise) with the tunes. I'd love to help out with if you still need players to read for you. I'll send an e-mail.

scruffyeagle - Posted - 07/14/2008:  03:42:04

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In response to the original question: For my "tenor" banjo, I use a Johnson 5-string that I removed the 5th string from and then widened the cuts in the nut to accomodate where the new strings were wider. It works well enough for a novice like me. After extensive experimentation with tunings, I settled on using the {G,D,A,E} tuning.

Now, here's a question of my own, re. the choice between {C,G,D,A} and {GDAE} tunings:

Would the head need to be tightened differently, for the different tunings?



Scruffy
http://scruffyeagle.com

ZenPickin - Posted - 07/14/2008:  04:14:03

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Clawdan,

I'd be very interested in seeing the fiddle tab.

Linda

fernando - Posted - 08/02/2008:  01:43:32

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Hi Dan!
I'm learning to play tenor and I'm actually --AVID-- for tab or notation I can follow.
I use the CGDA tunning (but I'm happy to try others).
If I'n still on time and you still think is a good idea do please send me some tab or notation. I'll compromise to write you a few lines, a report on how it's seen by someone teaching himself with books (the very few available for tenorand information from the internet --I can't get a teacher because of circumstances).
Thanks a lot and thanks for the dedication and the books. I hope the new one is also a great success.
All the best,
Fernando

fred davis - Posted - 08/09/2008:  17:56:12

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Hi Dan I really enjoy your editorials in banjo newleter and here my wife is troditional and tacks lessons playing CDGA. I on the other hand play a irish banjo tuned CBF#C# like a bules mandolin this seems softer and almost like the banjo chelo but then again she is a much better musician than I.

djangonut - Posted - 08/11/2008:  01:36:54

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I have a jazz playing friend who tunes his tenor in fifths like Irish and CGDA normal jazz tuning, but tunes it to BbFCG.

He reckons that this helps him play more easily with the horns which usually like to play in "flat" keys, like Bb, Eb, Ab, and F.

John

baileboy - Posted - 08/12/2008:  10:48:13

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So I just set up my new 17 fret tenor to CGDA because I was using this guide

http://folkwood.com/page4803.htm

I've since realised that the GDAE is more popular for the Irish tenor

http://www.thecipher.com/mandolin-cipher.html

I have a few questions about tuning (keep in mind I'm only begining to learn music theory)

1) If I play from a tab I can use either tuning, it's just the key will be different. Correct? Does each specific tuning have its own key?

2) Which tuning is higher? GDAE or CGDA ?
GDAE is an octive lower than a fiddle and the same as a mandolin?
CGDA is tuned like a Cello?

3) For my 17 fret tenor which tuning will sound the best and be easiest to maintain (not go out of tune quickly)?

sorry if these question are basic, it's my first week....

thanks,
Philip

diarmaid - Posted - 08/12/2008:  13:14:48

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baileboy...gdae is tuned like a fiddle or mandolin an an octave lower than both...its most commonly used for playing irish music on the banjo. (i would recommend using mandolin strings if you are considering this tuning as theyre heavier gauges than standard packs of tenor banjo strings)

cgda is tuned much higher than gdae tuning (and uses thin strings).

baileboy - Posted - 08/15/2008:  07:27:08

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quote:

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Originally posted by diarmaid

baileboy...gdae is tuned like a fiddle or mandolin an an octave lower than both...its most commonly used for playing irish music on the banjo. (i would recommend using mandolin strings if you are considering this tuning as theyre heavier gauges than standard packs of tenor banjo strings)

cgda is tuned much higher than gdae tuning (and uses thin strings).

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Diarmaid,

I just tuned my tenor to GDAE last night, my G sting doesn't sound quite right when I play down the frets the strings that I have are
http://www.elderly.com/accessories/...t--PF220.htm
I that normal?

What mandolin set should I buy? http://www.elderly.com/brand/STMN_ghs.html

What type of gauges do you recommend?

Thanks,
Philip

Tom Banjo - Posted - 08/15/2008:  15:19:49

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quote:

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Originally posted by baileboy

quote:

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Originally posted by diarmaid

baileboy...gdae is tuned like a fiddle or mandolin an an octave lower than both...its most commonly used for playing irish music on the banjo. (i would recommend using mandolin strings if you are considering this tuning as theyre heavier gauges than standard packs of tenor banjo strings)

cgda is tuned much higher than gdae tuning (and uses thin strings).

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Diarmaid,

I just tuned my tenor to GDAE last night, my G sting doesn't sound quite right when I play down the frets the strings that I have are
http://www.elderly.com/accessories/...t--PF220.htm
I that normal?

What mandolin set should I buy? http://www.elderly.com/brand/STMN_ghs.html

What type of gauges do you recommend?

Thanks,
Philip

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Yeah, that set is way too light for GDAE. I personally haven't found anything that works better than this set:
http://www.elderly.com/accessories/...set--CTB.htm

NYCJazz - Posted - 08/16/2008:  09:44:54

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I'm surprised no one has brought up the tenor guitar tuning GCEA.

Friends don''t let friends convert jazz banjos.

Jim Yates - Posted - 08/16/2008:  10:42:36

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I don't play much tenor any more, but when I did, I used a CGDA string set, but tuned up to DAEB. This gave me a brighter sound and since most Irish fiddle tunes don't go below the D, I could play the bottom three strings as though they were the top three of a fiddle or mandolin. If I ran into a tune that went below D, I'd have to transpose up an octave, make a variation in the melody or switch to mandolin.

Jim
www.myspace.com/jimyates
www.myspace.com/kirbyandyates
www.myspace.com/kirbyyatesmazurek

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Edited by - Jim Yates on 08/21/2008 09:03:34

scruffyeagle - Posted - 08/17/2008:  03:13:25

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quote:

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Originally posted by NYCJazz

I'm surprised no one has brought up the tenor guitar tuning GCEA.

Friends don''t let friends convert jazz banjos.

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Interesting! Never heard of it. I guess, that's what I get for hiding in my room all those years...

You say that's a tenor guitar tuning? Which strings on a tenor guitar would be using those notes? Better yet, what are the set of notes used on a tenor guitar?


Scruffy
http://scruffyeagle.com

Jim Yates - Posted - 08/18/2008:  08:28:43

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CGDA is standard tuning for a tenor guitar, (same as a tenor banjo) but some players, like Nick Renolds (sp) of the Kingston Trio or jazz guitarist Tiny Moore used DGBE likre the top four strings of a regular guitar.

Jim
www.myspace.com/jimyates
www.myspace.com/kirbyandyates
www.myspace.com/kirbyyatesmazurek

baileboy - Posted - 08/18/2008:  14:47:01

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Does anyone regularly go between the 2 tunings without changing strings? is it possible? GDAE & CGDA ?

Oh one more thing, I used this to tune to GDAE :http://www.get-tuned.com/violin_tuner.php

Am I in the right key/octave?


Thanks
Philip

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Edited by - baileboy on 08/19/2008 14:21:03

yellowdog - Posted - 08/19/2008:  18:41:24

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Philip, the link in your post is for a violin. Tenor banjo GDAE tuning, sometimes called "Irish tuning", is an octave below violin tuning. It is very low and much lower than standard tenor tuning of CGDA.

I play both tunings but not on the same banjo. The two tunings really require different size strings to sound right. You would probably break the top string on a tenor banjo trying to tune it to that high E on the web link violin tuner. But the web site is still useful because you can use the G,D,and A tones on the web site violin tuner to tune your G,D,and A open strings for C,G,D,A banjo tuning.

Frank Geiger
frank.geiger@yahoo.com
www.geigeracousticdevices.biz

scruffyeagle - Posted - 08/20/2008:  11:59:49

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jim Yates

CGDA is standard tuning for a tenor guitar, (same as a tenor banjo) but some players, like Nick Renolds (sp) of the Kingston Trio or jazz guitarist Tiny Moore used DGBE likre the top four strings of a regular guitar.

Jim
www.myspace.com/jimyates
www.myspace.com/kirbyandyates
www.myspace.com/kirbyyatesmazurek

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Ahhh....I think I get it. The tenor guitar only has 4 strings, right? I don't think I've ever seen one.


Scruffy
http://scruffyeagle.com

scruffyeagle - Posted - 08/20/2008:  12:02:46

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quote:

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Originally posted by yellowdog

Philip, the link in your post is for a violin. Tenor banjo GDAE tuning, sometimes called "Irish tuning", is an octave below violin tuning. It is very low and much lower than standard tenor tuning of CGDA.

I play both tunings but not on the same banjo. The two tunings really require different size strings to sound right. You would probably break the top string on a tenor banjo trying to tune it to that high E on the web link violin tuner. But the web site is still useful because you can use the G,D,and A tones on the web site violin tuner to tune your G,D,and A open strings for C,G,D,A banjo tuning.

Frank Geiger
frank.geiger@yahoo.com
www.geigeracousticdevices.biz

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You could also use the tones from that website for tuning the tenor banjo, via chiming at the 12th fret; when the chime matches the pitch from the website, then you're at the right pitch.


Scruffy
http://scruffyeagle.com

Shamrock - Posted - 08/20/2008:  12:08:34

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Scruffy, you can make a start here.

http://www.tenorguitar.com/

gr Juup


Excuse my English, I think in Dutch

Clawdan - Posted - 08/20/2008:  19:34:38

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WOW, never thought this would be such a lively and informative subject. I have learned lots reading. As for the book/tabs, I am a the point of entering corrections and finishing up the layout which I hope to have done early next month if not before. (I have a Banjo Newsletter deadline this week which must take precedence). Thanks to all of you who have requested to help proof. I think all who asked got around 10 tunes each (different ones) and have chimed in with their feedback.

While it is planned to be a Mel Bay Publication I may be able to have limited pre-production available by years end though the MB version could be a year or two off due to production schedules. Hopefully earlier, but fair notice. The final plan will be 2 lines of standard notation with one line of tab, based on fretted mando fret numbers tuned GDAE hence the tenor questions and reference.

SO, thanks again for helping with this and keep on talkin banjo!

Play nice ,
Dan "Ain''t no bum-ditty" Levenson
www.ClawhammerBanjo.us
Come to Clawcamp!

Jim Yates - Posted - 08/21/2008:  09:10:55

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baileboy asked:

quote:

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Does anyone regularly go between the 2 tunings without changing strings? is it possible? GDAE & CGDA ?

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These tunings are five frets apart, and I think if you used strings light enough to sound good with a CGDA tuning they'd be too loose for GDAE and strings that sound good for GDAE would probably break if you tried to tune them to CGDA.

Jim
www.myspace.com/jimyates
www.myspace.com/kirbyandyates
www.myspace.com/kirbyyatesmazurek

scruffyeagle - Posted - 08/24/2008:  03:42:34

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quote:

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Originally posted by Shamrock

Scruffy, you can make a start here.

http://www.tenorguitar.com/

gr Juup


Excuse my English, I think in Dutch

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That was a lot of fun! Now, I understand Tenor Guitars a lot better. Thanks for the link!


Scruffy
http://scruffyeagle.com