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mudskippercory - Posted - 06/03/2008: 05:59:39
Ok,
I know this might upset most of the fellow banjo players that are members here, but atleast hear me out first before you get mad.
I will start off on a light note and build this up......
I am also a guitar player, and one of my favorite guitarist is Angus Young from AC/DC. This man can come up with such great songs, solo's, and melodies. IMO he is much better then Jimmy Page, Jimmi Hendrix and Eric Clapton. I personally am not a fan of those three. But someone once said " Angus only uses three chords", and he responded "Yeah, and I have 20 Gold Platinum albums"
So now we go into bluegrass.....
During my banjo lesson yesterday, I was telling my teacher on how my main focus right now with playing is with getting much better up the neck. From the 7th fret down I kick some donkey, and I can play some songs up the neck not many but a few. While talking he explained something to me and this is where my question will now fall in place.
( this is not word for word)
He told me that basically to get the main fundamentals down for most, not all, but most bluegrass, both solo's, back, up, breaks, fills and licks you should learn Scruggs style of playing. From there you develop you own personal sense of style once you start learning by ear, and picking up how to play a song. He is not against tabs, but he feels that if you learn a tab, you can only play that song like the tab. If you learn by ear you are availability to improvise is much stronger.
He said you have people out there that can play a song almost exactlly like Scruggs, and then you have people out there that can't.
And I had said that it is not him personally, but I don't really like the "SONGS" that Scruggs and Flatt did. There are only like four songs, that do anything for me.
Now off the subject for a second.... I have been playing instruments since I was 11 I am now 36. So when it comes to music, I have always fallin for the song's ,and bands that have more emotion in them. To me that means more then the talent to play the song.
So I told him, that Flatts and Scruggs are very talented musicians, and while playing together their timing is great and they fit together well. But to me there is no emotion in the songs. I was listening to Live at Carnagy Hall. And hearing him play the banjo is like wow, but I then listened to Ralph Stanley play a song called "I've Seen the Rock of Ages", and I am not a religious person. But that one song had more emotion, more feeling then the whole Carnagy Hall album.
So the banjo has been around for over a hundred years in America, and there are different styles of music out there that it will fit into really well.
But my main question to all of this is.....
Is or Does the banjo playing fundamentals( meaing licks fills, back-up, soloing, playing up the neck, Y, X, Roll Patterns all of these main structure for bluegrass music work solely around Scruggs style of playing? Are all the books out there by Janet Davis, Ross Nickerson, Fred Sokolow ext..ext..all taught around the foundations of Scruggs? And I am talking about the style of three finger bluegrass picking.
"No banjo has yelled at me, that I didn't put the toilet seat down"
Mudskipper Cory
Edited by - mudskippercory on 06/03/2008 06:12:50
Justaused2b - Posted - 06/03/2008: 06:31:35
GET THE ROPE!!!!! j/k lol....I know right where you are coming from...Check out some old Reno and Smiley...changed the way i listen to banjo for sure
There''s a old hollow tree up the road here from me...
Scruggsnut - Posted - 06/03/2008: 07:19:22
quote:
Is or Does the banjo playing fundamentals( meaing licks fills, back-up, soloing, playing up the neck, Y, X, Roll Patterns all of these main structure for bluegrass music work solely around Scruggs style of playing? Are all the books out there by Janet Davis, Ross Nickerson, Fred Sokolow ext..ext..all taught around the foundations of Scruggs? And I am talking about the style of three finger bluegrass picking.
HHHMMMM, don't really quite understand the question here.
Are you asking, if you learn Scruggs basic fundamentals, can you play music other than Bluegrass??????
BWA Penrose,Oakville,Ontario,C
farley - Posted - 06/03/2008: 07:25:03
About twenty times a week somebody always asks the same question "Earl Scruggs just doesn't do it for me, is it okay if I learn the banjo by listening to -------------(insert banjo player here). SO OKAY.
NO IT IS NOT. YOU MUST LEARN THE BANJO BY ONLY LISTENING TO EARL SCRUGGS, NO OTHER WAY IS ACCEPTABLE, NO OTHER WAY WILL WORK.
The funny thing is that if you read the Scruggs book, Earl is the first one to encourage you to try out other styles, other songs, and other methods, one of his main ideas is for you to come up with your own ideas (what a wonderful idea!).
What you are being told is that take your Ralph Stanley, or whoever, if it is three fingered picking, in a rolling pattern, it is generally referred to as Scruggs style playing. Even in hard rock music stores they know about Earl Scruggs, and his book. WHY? Because it is the biggie stocked by most of the music supply stores. I'll bet they sell 100 to 1 , Scruggs instruction books, to any other personality banjo songbooks. Not to demean anybodys books, but the supply houses just don't stock the other ones as much.
If it is Ralph Stanley that turns you on to playing banjo, don't set there like a dumb donkey, run out and get everything you can find by him that hits your heart. Ralph is full of soul. Personally I like his clawhammer, and his mountain type singing better than his three fingered pickin. But you are right sometimes you can do more with three chords, and a good right hand than all of the most complicated chromatic computer geek chords in the world. A lot of three chord songs are what knocks me on my mule.
As far as the Carnegie Hall album not having the soul. "WHAT YOU TALKIN' BOUT WILLIS???" You'd better go back listen to the banjo on "I've Just Seen The Rock Of Ages", then listen to the first notes on "Dig A Hole In The Meadow", "Flint Hill Special" and the song that knocks me out, that by federal law I have to listen to every morning, BEFORE I make it to the bathroom is "Fiddle and Banjo" which is actually "Stoney Point". Once I hear that I know the world is safe again for the day.
Most of the licks you hear on Earl's music are licks that every banjo player you will listen to have built their own styles off of. Maybe not, but after they were playing, I'll bet you they were back studying Earl's playing. The only thing that will drive you crazier than the old Earl fight,
is somebody that tries to play every note just like Earl did it, cause they somehow never get it right...but lord knows they think they do.
One other thing, one of the reasons Earl is so popular is that for a good chunk of his career, he did not continue to perform with Lester Flatt. He had the Revue with his sons. They took banjo farther (at the time) than anyone ever had, and brought it to a whole 'nuther audience.
The only problem doing that is, as far out as you go, eventually you are going to reach your limitations......you'll become the old man, and some cute little young'n will come up with another approach, or style, and then you're Toast. Yep, someday the Bela's and Trischka's will be obsolete. 
Farley
flake - Posted - 06/03/2008: 07:26:34
According to Bela Fleck, Scruggs is the master of the three finger style. In my opionion it's pretty self-evident. There's a reason it's called "Scruggs Style" in the first place.
J.D. Crowe once told Earl, in a tongue-in-cheek way of course, "You ruined my life!"
Fleck's take on it......."When you get right down to it, we're all still trying to sound just like Earl."
mike
I realize that I''m generalizing here, but as is often the case when I generalize, I don''t care.
wrentree - Posted - 06/03/2008: 07:41:31
I personally don't think that anyone can develop his own style until he knows more about playing the banjo. When I started I knew nothing about picking let alone putting my own mark on the song. Learn it by using all the tools you have around you. Then personalize your playing. You probably will watch other pickers and borrow any lick that turns you on too.
Harold
Texasbanjo - Posted - 06/03/2008: 07:42:27
Well, to try to put this in focus: before Earl Scuggs, there was banjo -- and it was play in classical style, clawhammer style, various 2 and 3 finger styles, strummed, flatpicked, etc. So, do you HAVE to have Scruggs basics? No. But will it help you tremendously in learning to play not only bluegrass but other music, too? YES!
I started off with the 3-finger Scruggs style and then went to single string and melodic because I liked the sound of it. Now I can play just about any song using the basics I learned from Scruggs. It doesn't have to sound bluegrass, but my fingers and my mind know where how to get the sound out of the banjo. I doubt I could do what I do today if I hadn't got all those basics down and then learned to play by ear. Once you get away from tab, you tend to develop your own style of picking -- and it's usually a mishmash of Scruggs, melodic, single string, clawhammer or whatever sounds good to you and works for you.
Most beginner bluegrass books ARE simply that: bluegrass songs that everyone knows. So, learn the basics (and to do that, you'll have to learn some of those bluegrass songs that don't do anything for you esthetically, BUT, they do teach you how to play) and then take those basics and apply them to the songs that you DO like the sound of.
I play bluegrass, gospel, pop, old time country, rock-n-roll, a little classical -- and all from learning the basics of bluegrass type banjo.
Let''s Pick!
Texas Banjo
Aaron Thomas - Posted - 06/03/2008: 07:42:34
listen to as many different banjo players as you can .. and try to learn everything you can from each person. everyone refers to 3 finger style as scruggs style but thats mainly because he was the first one out in the big light so to speak playing that style. there are many many other great banjo players.. not everyone one is a hard core flat and scruggs fan and that is perfectly alright.. i like all types of music. i listen to bluegrass, country, jazz, classical, some rock and roll... find what you like out of various types of music .. put all of those things into your playing and you'll be your own unique style. thats what its all about.. if everyone in the world played just like earl it would be a very boring music world.
mudskippercory - Posted - 06/03/2008: 07:43:41
Farley,
Sir, this is not in an arrogant way...but is the Scrugg's Style really the ONLY way to learn three finger bluegrass style at first I mean?. or were you being obnoxious?
Cuz I say, Earl had to have been influenced by other banjo players to get him to do the style that he did.
I was not saying that I feel Ralph is a better banjo player then Earl either I was stating the amount of emotion in the song.
For example two songs that both Ralph and Earl played... Little Maggie. ......I have listened to both one right after the other over and over while trying to learn the song. To ME, the emotion in the song is more up front in Ralph's version of the song then Scrugg's.
But again I am not only talking about these two banjo player's I am just using two common names to make it more understand able. Hey Bela Fleck is one amazing, awesome banjo player, but I like maybe 6 songs that he had "MADE"
It it all goes back to my first question which is.........
"Is or Does the banjo playing fundamentals( meaing licks fills, back-up, soloing, playing up the neck, Y, X, Roll Patterns all of these main structure for bluegrass music work solely around "Scruggs style" of playing? Are all the books out there by Janet Davis, Ross Nickerson, Fred Sokolow ext..ext..all taught around the foundations of Scruggs? And I am talking about the style of three finger bluegrass picking."Can you learn or would there be three finger style of bluegrass banjo if there were not Scrugg's.? If I listen to Joe Smith from the BLah BLah band and think that he was the best banjo player that "I" have heard and listen to his songs trying to learn them. Is the Scrugg's Style of three finger bluegrass really how Joe Smith learned to play the banjo and is deeply rooted in his banjo playing ability?
I know this is prob. a question that will go on fer ever......
Mudskipper Cory
Edited by - mudskippercory on 06/03/2008 07:47:58
seanray - Posted - 06/03/2008: 07:49:57
Nice post mudskippercory,
I know you're not alone in you're opinions. I too am a huge Angus fan, much to the dismay of my bluegrass compadres, and find him and AC/DC highly misunderstood and underrated. Sure they've sold millions of albums but I think most people overlook their true greatness which to me lie in their tone and taste (yes I said taste). I also see parallels between what they do and what great Bluegrass acts do; mainly the ability to work within a narrow harmonic (AC/DC = A chord, D chord) structure without boring the listener or making all the songs sound the same. The second and biggest parallel between Angus and somebody like J.D. Crowe is that they both refuse to sacrifice tone for fancy licks and they both play for the song and the band. In addition to that they pay homage to their influences while innovating at the same time. Let's face it without Chuck Berry and Earl Scruggs we wouldn't be talking about Angus & J.D.
So to answer your main question in three words: yes and no.
You'll be hard pressed to find a book on the subject of three finger banjo picking without the mention of Earl Scruggs somewhere in the text. Much like any blues-rock guitar book is going to mention Chuck Berry too. It's all about how far back you want to trace the lineage. If you want to learn "Highway To Hell" do you have to first learn "Johnny B. Goode"? Not at all but you will indirectly be learning some Chuck Berry phrases. Same thing holds true if you want to learn a Bela tune. You're bound to be picking up a slew of Scruggs phrasing.
So it sounds like the Flatt & Scruggs repertoire doesn't thrill you. That's not a big deal since there are plenty of other acts out there to listen to. You mentioned liking Ralph Stanley so maybe you should get some Stanley Brother's music. If you find no emotion in Carter & Ralph's voices then you're just plain deaf. Or perhaps your tastes may lean more toward the second generation acts like the Bluegrass Album Band, Seldom Scene, John Hartford, New Grass Revival or maybe something even newer yet.
Pardon rambling but it's not often I get to talk about Angus & J.D. in the same forum (commence lynch mob now).
So anyway, what banjo players do you like?
http://www.seanray.com
flake - Posted - 06/03/2008: 08:28:41
Cory----Since no one seems to be answering your question plainly enough to suit you, maybe through fear of reprisal, I'll go out on a limb and do it myself. Yes, the foundations of the three-finger style of picking that most people use as a starting and building point were laid by Scruggs. Some players don't venture too far from this structure, because, let's face it, mastering it is a lifetime's work. Some will decide to branch off and go another way, choosing to work towards the more melodic style of playing. Other's will end up playing more of a Stanley style, with it's emphasis on forward rolls and an index finger based structure, rather than Earl's preferred method of emphasizing notes with the thumb. But by and large, the backup technique and grace notes, heavy thumb, flowing three finger (rather than syncopated) rolling style that most people try to emulate today and that is so popular for teaching materials and instructional DVDs is a result of Bill Monroe's banjo player from Flint Hill, near Shelby, North Carolina.
mike
We operate under a jury system in this country, and as much as we complain about it, we have to admit we know of no better system, except possibly flipping a coin.
twhite54 - Posted - 06/03/2008: 08:58:25
just play what feels good...
ethel the wonder basset
"she''d her apron wrapped about her and i took her for a swan.." that''s my story and i''m stickin'' to it...
george craciun - Posted - 06/03/2008: 09:06:46
Well, here is another perspective. I come from an old world family of mainly by-ear musicians (much like the "old ones who brought their music to the Appalachians and elsewhere).
I learned to play entirely by ear, and a photo on an old Smiley - Reno album showed me that finger picks were used in playng the banjo. That's all the instruction I ever had, but listened to lots of early bluegrass and did my best to make similar sounds. To this day I have no musical knowledge, don,t read tabs at all, but play my style of 3 finger banjo, which some have described as lead index 3 finger picking. Definitely not Scruggs. The rolls and timing come out a little different, but the sound is very similar. Fortunately, I can usually play most any tune I hear - may take 2 or 3 listens for more complicated tunes, and backup is usually pretty easy and simple even with unfamilure music. So I guess my answer to your question is, play any style that comes naturally and sounds acceptable to you. I have been mixing in a little clahammerishness in my tunes lately, and that has opened up a whole new vista for me. Playing banjo is a great adventure if you are willing to follow new paths - to see where they lead. And once you have the fundamentals down, then, innovation is a lot more rewarding than immitation. Just a thought. Good luck.
Back Porch Picker
Tom Hanway - Posted - 06/03/2008: 09:06:50
quote:
Originally posted by Texasbanjo
Well, to try to put this in focus: before Earl Scuggs, there was banjo -- and it was play in classical style, clawhammer style, various 2 and 3 finger styles, strummed, flatpicked, etc. So, do you HAVE to have Scruggs basics? No. But will it help you tremendously in learning to play not only bluegrass but other music, too? YES!
I started off with the 3-finger Scruggs style and then went to single string and melodic because I liked the sound of it. Now I can play just about any song using the basics I learned from Scruggs. It doesn't have to sound bluegrass, but my fingers and my mind know where how to get the sound out of the banjo. I doubt I could do what I do today if I hadn't got all those basics down and then learned to play by ear. Once you get away from tab, you tend to develop your own style of picking -- and it's usually a mishmash of Scruggs, melodic, single string, clawhammer or whatever sounds good to you and works for you.
Most beginner bluegrass books ARE simply that: bluegrass songs that everyone knows. So, learn the basics (and to do that, you'll have to learn some of those bluegrass songs that don't do anything for you esthetically, BUT, they do teach you how to play) and then take those basics and apply them to the songs that you DO like the sound of.
I play bluegrass, gospel, pop, old time country, rock-n-roll, a little classical -- and all from learning the basics of bluegrass type banjo.
Let''s Pick!
Texas Banjo
I think a lot of accomplished players got their start or at least a firm foundation in bluegrass and Scruggs-style banjo before tackling other styles and branching out to discover their own musicality. Learn Earl's Breakdown, Flint Hill Special, Randy Lynn Rag, Foggy Mountain Breakdown, Foggy Mountain Chimes et al.
The Foggy Mountain Banjo and Foggy Mountain Jamboree albums are full of classic songs and even more classic banjo instrumentals. I would learn those albums and concentrate on Flatt & Scruggs standards (lead and back-up) and here is a small list, tunes such as:
Ballad of Jed Clampett
Blue Ridge Cabin Home
Cripple Creek
Doin' My Time
Dear Old Dixie
Home Sweet Home
Hot Corn, Cold Corn
My Cabin in Caroline
Nashville Blues
Old Folks (Soldier's Joy)
Shuckin' the Corn
Why Did You Wander
Your Love is Like a Flower
Learning how to sing harmony (usually baritone for a banjo player) and play with others is half the fun of playing bluegrass - maybe more than half. Baritone can be quite tricky because it is counter-intuitive at times, and you really have to find the "missing" part.
Bluegrass has to seep into you, and it's always good to learn one tune at a time. Find a tune that you like, get it right, then learn another. If you can't find enough Scruggs tunes that you like, then I suggest you are in the wrong field. When one door closes, another opens up, so choose wisely.
Happy pickin,
Tom
http://www.tomhanway.com
Edited by - Tom Hanway on 06/03/2008 09:26:12
rjanecek - Posted - 06/03/2008: 09:08:51
quote:
I am also a guitar player, and one of my favorite guitarist is Angus Young from AC/DC. This man can come up with such great songs, solo's, and melodies. IMO he is much better then Jimmy Page, Jimmi Hendrix and Eric Clapton.
WOW!!! I like AC/DC as much as the next guy ( I can prove it look at my pictures on homepage...Lounge pants!!!!)
But I do agree on the 3 chord thing and would never place him in the same company as Hendrix or Clapton or Page...
AC/DC to me is the same metal guitar sound today as they did back 70's..I love them for that but come on
Rick
www.banjomafia.comGreg''s "PET" Frog scares the heck out of me!!!!
Edited by - rjanecek on 06/03/2008 09:15:33
farley - Posted - 06/03/2008: 09:11:44
Cory,
As usual, I was being my usual pain in the butt self. Actually I am surprised somebody hadn't chopped me all to heck yet. But that being said....that is why I had everything cazpitalized. How could anybody say that Earl is the only way to play banjo? You are right about "Little Maggie", personally when I hear that song, it's hard to think of anyone else playing it than Ralph, he flat-out nails it, but so does Earl's up-the-neck break at Carnegie Hall, what I did for this was buy both copies! Then turn around and listen to Jim Mills playing that same song with Ricky Skaggs, one of the finest examples of a great new generation banjo player, that did his homework with the older style, but suceeds in putting his own personality into his playing.
Earl is great, no doubt, I played a show with Josh Graves one time where he introduced Earl as "Our Father, who art in Nashville", I almost never got up from laughing. But the truth of the matter is what Earl did for banjo, and bluegrass music, can never be dismissed. To a lot of people, HE IS BANJO. But don't forget there were a whole lot of other banjo players out there doing it too. Not just in bluegrass, look at Pete Seegar, it's unmeasurable the influence he had with the 5-string banjo, and especially his book, ask a bunch of old timers how many bought the Seegar book because it had a few pages on three fingered style.
What I said about Earl and the Revue was if you listen to the interviews he did after he and Lester split up was, "I just got tired of Cumberland Gap", and "Cripple Creek". over and over again", Hell, I'll bet he did. Wouldn't you? Especially when he was as innovative as he was.
The guys on here say it better than I do, Earl was probably the first biggie with the five. He brought it to us, to do what we can with it, he brought it out, gave it dignity, where it goes now is up to a whole new bunch of people. Farley
Like I said, there will always be someone that wants their picking to sound just like Earl, Ralph, Reno, Keith, Fleck, and I think God bless them, that music should be played from now on, if it inspired us, it's like a living, breathing entity, and it will inspire someone else down the road
(I can't think of how many banjo players are playing because they heard J.D. doing "Old Home Place).
The best advice I ever got in my life was, "You can play everything I ever played since 1946 until today, but that was over 40 years ago, learn your own style, and stick with it." That came straight from Earl.
wrightedward - Posted - 06/03/2008: 09:29:02
I dont know how well this will fly ,if at all .This may get me in trouble ,but it is the best way i can answer your question .First i will answer by making a statement .I use this in my Bible class ,NO ONE FALLS ON TOP OF THE MOUNTAIN , you must climb up and that means here that you must do the basic,s, which is called Scruggs Style .It is what we all have learned on and built our style so to speak ..If you listen to Earl's Revue you will hear a lot of different sound other than Bluegrass and yes it is the same licks and runs that Earl has always done .Listen to NewGrass revivial (Bela) ,still a lot of Earl and that is how he started .Not saying you cant do it different ,because Earl say;s to make up your own licks .So he isnt against innovation and neither is anyone on here .By at least useing Earls basic,s you can come into your own and it all takes time .At least you know music,being a guitar player ,so you should progess very fast .And there are many other players you can learn from that may give or at least start you on your way to playing the way you want to ,good luck to you and i hope to hear a great banjo player soon .Go for it .And as some have said Earls way isnt the only way ,Reno ,Keith and then there Bobby Thompson and many more .Just do it like the song "I did it my way"
Eddie
PHillipians 4:13
Edited by - wrightedward on 06/03/2008 09:35:45
beegee - Posted - 06/03/2008: 14:21:15
If you want to play classical guitar, you study the masters. If you want to play violin, you study the masters. If you want to play piano, you study the masters. If you want to play banjo, you study Earl. Once you have mastered Earl(?) or at least understand basic Earl,, you can pretty much do whatever you want to. I know guys who can out-Reno Reno, out-Keith Keith. Don't know anybody who can out-Thompson Thompson. But they all start with Earl.
__________________________
turtle on a fencepost....
KidfromDeliverance - Posted - 06/03/2008: 15:13:33
Well, Cory, all you said was that you didn't care for the music of Flatt & Scruggs, at least not as much as that of others. No harm in that; and, you did state an appreciation for their musicianship. I can certainly sympathize - for quite a while, I wanted to learn to play banjo (and Scruggs style was the only type I knew about) but I didn't really like the music. The Foggy Mountain Banjo album was an exception, plus parts of the Deliverance soundtrack. And it was a serious obstacle, because I just didn't try hard enough to investigate the bluegrass world, to find different things to like about it, besides those banjo instrumentals. But I did finally take those steps, and there is so much I find that I like now. For sheer motivation to learn, this has made all the difference in the world. You like Ralph Stanley, you say (I'm in love with his voice, for sure) - great, and keep looking, find other artists you appreciate. But Earl's method is our standard, pretty much, and I don't know that you'd find anything in the way of instructional material that doesn't have his mark all over it, whether stated or not. There's enough great stuff out there that you ought to be able to learn without having to listen to his particular recordings, if that's the only problem.
steve davis - Posted - 06/03/2008: 15:18:24
I started playing banjo by chording to my dad's steel and my mom's piano on country standards and piano sheet music.
Nobody in Port Clyde knew anything about bluegrass music and whenever the banjo was mentioned,Eddy Peabody's name usually came up instead of Earl Scruggs.
There was one Flatt and Scruggs record in the whole village...the one with Foggy Mountain Breakdown on one side and a singing one on the other.I couldn't figure out how to run fingerpicks til I discovered Pete Wernick's book in the 70s.
By that time I pretty much knew the neck as far as chording any key in open tuning and the tab in Pete's book showed me how to finally get the picks going.I never would have figured it out without tablature.
There are all kinds of ways to get good music out of a banjo and sometimes it starts out having nothing to do with Earl's playing.
concerning gardens...weed ''em and reap
Edited by - steve davis on 06/03/2008 15:21:51
wrightedward - Posted - 06/03/2008: 15:23:08
Mudskipper ,,, And maybe i should have added,that true there are many ways to play the banjo besides Earl .."I cant believe i said that ". But there are different types of old time ,clawhammer and frailin ,ECT the list go's on .Check Frailin's personal site and listen to him play ,not three finger ,but clawhammer .He is great along with being a great person .But it seems like you are determined to play some way besides Earl ,but with his teaching as already said the rest comes fairly easy .And as for me ,i wont speak for others ,i play Earl and believe in Earl ,WHY ,because i have tried the other and just simply cant do it .Melodic ect is to hard for me ,bless those that can do it .And again no body does it like Bobby Thompson,he was different ,but still had Earl .
Eddie
Phillipians 4:13
Edited by - wrightedward on 06/03/2008 15:23:51
DougMetzger - Posted - 06/03/2008: 15:45:21
I guess its not called Scruggs style for nothin'........the guy originated it. If you put 3 picks on your right hand thank Earl. Take it from there. Put 4 or 5 picks on your right hand. I am a big Steve Vai, Joe Satriani and Van Halen fan from my rock guitar days. When I get this Scruggs style down....a long time from now.....I will incorporate some of their stuff into it and try to make it my own.
1four5 - Posted - 06/03/2008: 15:58:23
I play a 4 finger country blues guitar style banjo. I've never studied any books or tapes and don't have a clue how to cypher tab. We play some bluegrassy stuff. I say bluegrassy, because I can fool the uneducated on a good day with a couple songs. Every now and then I accidentally find some stuff that sounds close, and I use it. I'm just now starting to ease into some 3 finger stuff and trying to make it sound a little more bluegrassy in our bluegrassy songs, but that hasen't stopped me from having a blast in my own way right from the start, and backing up my bandmates in a way that sounds more like a drunk cowboy than Earl Influenced banjo. There is nothing stopping you from ditching the books and doing whatever you want.
Dean
Edited by - 1four5 on 06/03/2008 16:00:51
bowfinger - Posted - 06/03/2008: 18:39:13
Thats true. You can do what you want.
Your Original Question.
Yes, If you want to play 3 finger bluegrass. Start with Earl Scruggs. I haven't been playing Banjo long. But Knowing what Earl did playing the positions up the neck could be used for any type of tune you'd want to play on the banjo. From Ralph Stanley to VanHalen. Earl did popularize the 5-string banjo. Yes he was influenced by Smith Hammet & Snuffy Jenkins and some others perhaps. But he advanced the 3 finger style to such a degree that you have to consider him the preeminent player of the 5 string banjo. You might consider Don Reno in the same vein. But I think of Don's music as more advanced and a little less approachable to the beginner. (In part because of his wanting to separate himself from so called Scruggs style.)
It is my OPINION if you just learned ... say.... Ralph Stanley's style, you'd be more limited in what you might achieve in your playing. However you mention a SONG of Ralph's. Singing ALWAYS trumps instrumental (quality being equal :) ) Try listening to some old Dave Evans for some soul. He's got it and he plays pretty much straight Scruggs style (I think). But he sounds NOTHING like Scruggs. He would be a great reference point for you.
So do you HAVE to learn songs you don't like by Flatt & Scruggs?? NO !! But, that still depends on you and your teacher. You can get the licks from other songs. But it may be hard to find someone to teach you those tunes. The Teacher has to be able to break those down for you. And that takes the teachers' time (maybe lots of time) if he doesn't have them prepared. Teaching Scruggs songs and tunes are "Standard Repertoire".
Pick out a tune you like take it to your teacher and see if he can teach it to you. Or can he teach you one very similar to it. YOU can learn yours later by changing a few things. Many songs & tunes are alike in chord structure.
And after all is said & done YOU will have to add the soul to your music.
Getting soul into your music like "I've just seen The Rock of Ages" and Larry Sparks' " Jesus is the Rock" require a bit of an ability to translate what you feel into the song. Can you transmit that into your playing? Perhaps. If you believe it as strongly as I think they do in those tunes you can too. But still not everyone can translate it so well. That's the real edge of the knife.
Banjocoltrane - Posted - 06/03/2008: 19:22:49
Would someone care to ELABORATE on WHAT was innovative about Earl Scruggs Revue?......the band he played in with his sons
Playing a plugged in banjo? Playing with a steel guitar and drums? What?
ALSO:
Bela Fleck stated ."When you get right down to it, we're all still trying to sound just like Earl."
So, is Bela TRYING to sound like Earl these days? I realize Bela said this, but i think it's a silly/incorrect statement. LOTS of banjo players don't care anything about sounding like Earl....this is evident in there music.
"TAB is like Gerbers.....music can''t be spoon-fed to ya forever."
http://www.jodyhughesmusic.com
tombrien - Posted - 06/03/2008: 19:35:15
IMHO if ya just spend as much time playing as you have obviously done typing all this stuff, you'd be way better than Earl could've hoped for
Thank GOD my wife loves bluegrass,
Tom Brien
ELWOOD - Posted - 06/03/2008: 19:42:50
Earl scruggs: "not to be Abused not to be worshiped" Elwood said that! This is not going to stop and that just shows how impactive Scruggs is , syncopative rolls are cool so's the melody . He hammered out style, Iam sure he is amused. Ralph Stanley is one of my guys all soul. Bela Fleck can stay at my house anytime . I just love it when you all get to arguin' over the feast..........................Elwood
wrightedward - Posted - 06/03/2008: 20:42:06
I dont sound a thing like Earl ,wish i did .What i said was that you need the basic's of Earl and that Earl didnt mind you being innovative .No where did i say that the Revue was innovative .I play there stuff and like Earl use the same stuff that i use on Bluegrass ,same bag of tricks .It may not be the best but it works ...
Eddie
Phillipians 4:13
stanger - Posted - 06/03/2008: 21:20:33
Hi, Corey...
You have already made a huge leap from heavy metal to 5-string banjo. The two are as different as night and day- they're completely on opposite spectrums of music.
Your problem is not with the banjo style, it's the tunes. Don't let your heavy metal fondness mess with your banjo playing and vice versa. If you want to play heavy metal, dump the banjo, buy an electric guitar and go down the block for some lesson from that 15 year old kid who's a whiz-bang.... you'll be playing like Angus in no time.
As a teacher, I know that the Scruggs book has killed more beginners than it's made into real banjoists. All the vital elements of the style are found in the first few chapters of the Scruggs book, and past that, it's all Foggy Mountain doo-dah. The skills and the repertoire are entirely different things, and you are not the only one who doesn't want to copy every song Earl ever played. There is absolutely no need to do so, either.
If you know the basic rolls well, and the essential workings of the slides, pulls hammers, and bends, the other thing you truly have to know well is the neck past the 7th fret. You teacher is correct in that aspect. Until you can play the middle of the neck with confidence, you're gonna be stuck as a perpetual beginner.
How you learn to navigate those high frets is up to you. Scruggs never learned how to make full use of the middle of the neck, from the 5th to the 12th frets, but his stuff is still good as a starting point. You can take advantage of the knowledge he never knew about until he was already famous for his thing- just start with the Melodic Banjo book, and go for it. The middle of the neck is where all the real magic lies and happens, and only the banjo has the magic.
It's up to you to how far you want to go, and which direction you want to travel. Each step of the journey has it's individual challenges, but some parts of the way are easy. Some parts require more concentration, more discipline, and are more difficult.
While Earl Scruggs is a virtuoso, he is not the only one, and his path isn't the only one that has be followed. You need to listen to just as much banjo music as you can find- immerse yourself in nothing but banjo, old and new, and discover for yourself which trail is the one that hooks you.
If your teacher can't lead all the way to where you want to go, get what you can from him without complaint, because he knows part of the pathway better than you do. The rest of the way will be up to another teacher who can take you there, or you'll have to find your way all on your own.
If your head is full of banjo music, and some of it is sticking in your heart, you'll find the way if you stay on the path. Accept no excuses from anyone, and accept no excuses from yourself. In the end, it's you and your banjo, period.
regards,
Stanger
The pen is mightier than the pigs.
Edited by - stanger on 06/03/2008 21:25:06
gottasmilealot - Posted - 06/04/2008: 09:41:04
quote:
...He told me that basically to get the main fundamentals down for most, not all, but most bluegrass, both solo's, back, up, breaks, fills and licks you should learn Scruggs style of playing. From there you develop you own personal sense of style once you start learning by ear, and picking up how to play a song. He is not against tabs, but he feels that if you learn a tab, you can only play that song like the tab. If you learn by ear you are availability to improvise is much stronger.
He said you have people out there that can play a song almost exactlly like Scruggs, and then you have people out there that can't...
I think you were given good advice. Learning Earls' style of playing does not necessarily mean you have to play his music. You can play many types of music with the techniques he developed. Learn techniques used by others as well, and enjoy the journey.
Keith
Banjophobic - Posted - 06/04/2008: 11:12:28
Mud
Its not necessary to like tunes that Scruggs played. whats important is that you recognize, respect and absorb his ideas as they have immense value in ANY type of music you widh to try on banjo. The more you try to move away influental players on any instrument, in any genre, the the more you reiterate how great they are. Learn as much as you can from a great player, but dont become a clone. You dont have to like what Scruggs played to recognize that he was great at it and that his ideas are fundamental to Bluegrass banjo stylings. Its also important to recognize that it can help YOU beocme a better, more versed player. 
sjyokel - Posted - 06/04/2008: 14:00:26
I'm sure the original question has been answered here, but the whole discussion reminded me of this clip...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXkwthWiMFk
I don't know who this banjo player is but he plays a respectable bluegrass-style banjo (you can tell by the company he keeps), but if you look closely, especially later in the clip, you'll see that he's getting that 3-finger-style sound with only two fingers.
I think "Earl's style" is a clean and very practical way to learn to play the banjo, but it ain't the only way.
LCH - Posted - 06/04/2008: 14:16:07
I believe that the banjo player in that clip is Jackie Phelps.
Drinkin'' up the Future, Livin'' down the past
Fortancient - Posted - 06/07/2008: 18:16:09
So I come from a similar background in that I played bass in metal and pop metal bands in the 1980's. I listened to bluegrass as a child however. After I quit playing out and big hair died I was able to open up a ton of old music...and hey Itunes..if I had the catalog then that I have now. Anyway, I dont care for Earl Scruggs review now I dont love every Flatt and Scruggs song but I dont like every ACDC song either. I think some of their best work was with Bill Monroe..but hey, I LOVE Ralph's trebly tone man I LOVE it, Don Reno, Bringin in that Georgia Mail..foget it man that track smokes, Jim and Jesse, SONNY OSBORNE, Roni Stoneman.....Pick out licks and play along but it is a different world than ACDC as you know. They all bring jams to the table and smiles to the face.
Heck check out some of Farley's stuff, its great!
Don Miller
Powerbawl Redbone Kennels
TimFromMo - Posted - 06/08/2008: 08:34:41
How about this: Forget the name Scruggs and just refer to it as the 3 finger technique. It's a style of playing that can (and has been) adapted to more genres than most people can count. Earl just did a lot to popularize it (with great success). If it works for you, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't. Let the music make the decision.
Having said that, 3 finger may not lend itself to Highway to Hell without serious reinterpretation. This could be your inspiration for developing the Cory style that people will be using 70 years from now!
Bird Dog - Posted - 06/08/2008: 11:02:24
quote:
Originally posted by sjyokel
I'm sure the original question has been answered here, but the whole discussion reminded me of this clip...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXkwthWiMFk
I don't know who this banjo player is but he plays a respectable bluegrass-style banjo (you can tell by the company he keeps), but if you look closely, especially later in the clip, you'll see that he's getting that 3-finger-style sound with only two fingers.
I think "Earl's style" is a clean and very practical way to learn to play the banjo, but it ain't the only way.
True, and Doc Watson does some respectable bluegrassy two-finger - but it won't take you too far into the repertoire before you find that it just hasn't the versatility or syncopation to do much of a complex nature. Bill Monroe knew that when he switched to Scruggs and, later, Scruggs-style players. (Someone said that Phelps was just filling in that day.)
Robin
Bird Dog - Posted - 06/08/2008: 11:03:51
quote:
Originally posted by Banjocoltrane
Would someone care to ELABORATE on WHAT was innovative about Earl Scruggs Revue?......the band he played in with his sons
Playing a plugged in banjo? Playing with a steel guitar and drums? What?
ALSO:
Bela Fleck stated ."When you get right down to it, we're all still trying to sound just like Earl."
So, is Bela TRYING to sound like Earl these days? I realize Bela said this, but i think it's a silly/incorrect statement. LOTS of banjo players don't care anything about sounding like Earl....this is evident in there music.
"TAB is like Gerbers.....music can''t be spoon-fed to ya forever."
http://www.jodyhughesmusic.com
Ah, but note: Bela didn't say trying to PLAY like Earl - he said 'SOUND".
Robin
PaulKirby - Posted - 06/09/2008: 05:25:46
I have to say that I'm really impressed at the civility of tone on this thread, and I'm heartened at the calm but serious tone of the answers here. When I was completely new to the BHO about a year ago, I made one critical remark of a certain aspect of a Great Banjo Players playing, critical meaning that I said that I didn't enjoy it as much as his other style of playing, and I got slapped down quicker then a red-headed stepchild.
thetexan - Posted - 06/09/2008: 09:34:29
Since the banjo has been around there have been many ways to play it. Frailing, Clawhammer (which is almost the same thing), strumming, picking, three finger style and a few less significant others.
I think one of the reasons for the confusion is the name 'Scruggs Style'. It is more properly called three fingered style. There doesnt seem to be too many ways to pick the banjo with three fingers. You play some kind of pattern with the right hand and form certain notes with the left hand. The person who is most credited with realizing this is Earl Scruggs. In fact, there were others who were playing three fingered style much like Earl long before Earl came on the scene. Earl even credits these folks when asked about the development of his style of playing. People like Snuffy Jenkins.
I think of this as similar to the naming of naval ships. When a new class of ship is designed that class is named for the first ship of that class. The Nimitz was the first carrier of a new design and afterwards every sister ship of that design was refered to as a 'Nimitz class' ship.
Scruggs popularized a new and fundamental form of three fingered playing and ever since it has been refered to as Scruggs Style. Bill Keith created the Keith style of melodic play. Both are three fingered methods.
If you want to learn three finger banjo you cant do it without laying the foundations of Scruggs style. Even Keith's style is simply and melodic embellishment of the basic Scruggs style. And since many, many masters have perfected that foundation, there is no better place to start.
Not because we are trying to be Scruggs, but because Scruggs style IS three fingered banjo. He discovered it and developed it (notwithstanding the above mentioned pioneers). So every aspiring banjologist needs to start by absorbing as much of what's in Earls brain as possible.
tex
Banjocoltrane - Posted - 06/09/2008: 11:02:13
quote:
Originally posted by Bird Dog
So, is Bela TRYING to sound like Earl these days? I realize Bela said this, but i think it's a silly/incorrect statement. LOTS of banjo players don't care anything about sounding like Earl....this is evident in there music.
Ah, but note: Bela didn't say trying to PLAY like Earl - he said 'SOUND".
Robin
Ah, but notice, I didn't use the word PLAY either ;)
He doesn't SOUND anything like Earl and neither do a whole host of other great banjo players. I'm guessing most of them don't want to SOUND like Earl either...they'd rather SOUND like THEMSELVES.
SOUND referring to tone, clarity, timing, etc.
JD Crowe, Allen Shelton, Don Reno, Sammy Shelor, Bill Keith, etc.......ALL have there own TONE, and sense of timing.
IMO, Comments like these do nothing but diminish the efforts/abilities of those that came BEFORE and AFTER Earl Scruggs. Every great banjo player had their OWN conception and touch on the instrument. I'd seriously question a persons thinking who spent his life chasing someone elses SOUND, we are all distinct, unique individuals for a reason.
"TAB is like Gerbers.....music can''t be spoon-fed to ya forever."
http://www.jodyhughesmusic.com
Bird Dog - Posted - 06/09/2008: 11:41:55
quote:
Originally posted by Banjocoltrane
quote:
Originally posted by Bird Dog
So, is Bela TRYING to sound like Earl these days? I realize Bela said this, but i think it's a silly/incorrect statement. LOTS of banjo players don't care anything about sounding like Earl....this is evident in there music.
Ah, but note: Bela didn't say trying to PLAY like Earl - he said 'SOUND".
Robin
Ah, but notice, I didn't use the word PLAY either ;)
He doesn't SOUND anything like Earl and neither do a whole host of other great banjo players. I'm guessing most of them don't want to SOUND like Earl either...they'd rather SOUND like THEMSELVES.
SOUND referring to tone, clarity, timing, etc.
JD Crowe, Allen Shelton, Don Reno, Sammy Shelor, Bill Keith, etc.......ALL have there own TONE, and sense of timing.
IMO, Comments like these do nothing but diminish the efforts/abilities of those that came BEFORE and AFTER Earl Scruggs. Every great banjo player had their OWN conception and touch on the instrument. I'd seriously question a persons thinking who spent his life chasing someone elses SOUND, we are all distinct, unique individuals for a reason.
"TAB is like Gerbers.....music can''t be spoon-fed to ya forever."
http://www.jodyhughesmusic.com
True, and I stand corrected. I guess I was coming from the point of view of the overall thread, where it seemed that people were talking about playing like Earl. Possibly I was wrong there, too.
I would still say, however, that I believe Bela was simply making the point that Earl's ability to draw tone out of the banjo is greatly admired and emulated by later players - which doesn't, for me, preclude your statement that each player should develop his or her own tone. I think the two are not mutually exclusive.
Robin
Edited by - Bird Dog on 06/09/2008 11:44:14
bones - Posted - 06/09/2008: 15:52:05
scruggs or three finger style is a very good foundation. but in the 40's and 50's and during the flatt and scruggs heydays there were other banjo pickers with different styles ( grandpa jones ,stringbean, uncle dave macon -to name a few) that were getting just as many gigs and entertaining just as many folks. "Marketing " through radio ,the opry, and road travel exposed flatt and scruggs to more people i think than some of the others and scruggs became THE Banjo Man ! not to mention his natural ability to put it all together by EAR. so, start with the style you like -- but, encorportate scruggs' style as soon as you can. and as coltrane says about tab- you can't be spoon fed forever. develop your own style. be YOU.
For Fun and Frolic the One and Only "Mr. Bones" and his trusty 5 string Banjo !
17rb100 - Posted - 06/09/2008: 20:05:36
I was lucky enough to be raised around some of the best musicians here around Asheville. Saturday nights would bring a different banjo player or two to my house. Some would play Scruggs style while others would play Reno Style. My sister was taking lessons from Marc Pruitt over at Pick&Grin at WestGate. She would bring her Tab home so when nobody else was around I would practice Bells of Saint Mary or what other tab was there. There is no better lesson than watching players up close and then trying to copy them( in another room of course!) My dad ran me out of so many jams when I was little because I would watch and then sit there practicing what I just saw and heard. Steve Sutton also amazed me with his smooth playing style which is not Scruggs or Reno or Stanley but has elements of all the greatest players I ever heard. He deserves more recognition than He gets. I bought Tony Trischka's Book with the little punch out record in the back of it! This was back in the 70's of course. Bobby Thompson blew me away with his version of Blackberry Blossom. The best advice I can give is to watch a player up close and listen to his phrasing and tone, noticing everything you can about the left hand fingering and right hand rotation. In other words, if Earl can't come to your house, watch and learn from whoever you can sit and watch in person. That not only applies to the banjo, but to any musician that you encounter no matter the instrument he plays! Now if only Ron Block lived here in Asheville......
You can''t tunatonering!
Banjocoltrane - Posted - 06/09/2008: 20:24:20
quote:
Originally posted by 17rb100
I would watch and then sit there practicing what I just saw and heard. Steve Sutton also amazed me with his smooth playing style which is not Scruggs or Reno or Stanley but has elements of all the greatest players I ever heard. He deserves more recognition than He gets.
AGREED. Steve is a great banjo picker
"TAB is like Gerbers.....music can''t be spoon-fed to ya forever."
http://www.jodyhughesmusic.com
Darbbb - Posted - 06/11/2008: 11:41:45
Not to add fuel to any fires....I am a newbie here and just interested in absorbing as many different opinions as I can....
But some of this discussion makes me think about Elvis, and how he is designated the "king of rock and roll." Was he? To my mind, no, not even close. As I listen now, the only album of his that holds up over time is his first, The Sun Sessions, where he laid down tracks like "That's Allright Mama," and "Mystery Train." All those movies he did are a joke, and frequently parodied. He didn't invent rock and roll....who did is open to debate, but surely people like Jackie Brenston, Big Joe Turner, Bo Diddley, and even Bill Hailey have a better claim to it than Elvis does.
But....there is....something. Maybe it's the way Elvis popularized the genre. Maybe he first made critics treat the music as a separate genre. Maybe he gave it staying power, so it didn't go the way of other musical fads. Maybe he was just the iconic figure that people needed to put a face with the music. I can see parallels here with Earl. Did he invent bluegrass music? Seems like most people would say no, though he was a very early and of course towering figure. Maybe he did for BG what Elvis did for rock....get people to notice it and understand what it's about, be the face of the music, give it staying power over the long haul.
For me, I revere Earl....as a newbie, I want to soak up as much of his music and technique as I can. As for individual style, that is going to happen anyway. No one will produce an exact copy, except a machine. I tell this to my writing students all the time....pay attention to craft, don't worry about style. You can't NOT have a style, if you write long enough.
Brad
www.bradbarkley.com
farley - Posted - 06/11/2008: 20:59:00
Hey Brad,
Maybe Elvis gave it the PELVIS!! That's exactly what we need.... pelvic banjo players!!! Just ask Diva, and Hoosier Girl. Farley
Banjoitus - Posted - 06/11/2008: 22:22:11
I get to thinking this or that banjo player sounds pretty good, then I play something from Earl's early days, and I KNOW who the banjo picker is. How anyone can say Earl's playing lacks emotion is beyond me. He didn't portray his music in the sob sister manner so common in bluegrass but rather listen to the pure delight he put into his early music. Emotion? Emotion comes in a lot of different ways.
maplebridge48 - Posted - 06/12/2008: 06:20:10
quote:
Originally posted by maplebridge48
quote:
Originally posted by sjyokel
I'm sure the original question has been answered here, but the whole discussion reminded me of this clip...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXkwthWiMFk
Good clip to post, and it reminded me that the last time through the tune, the Bluegrass Boys suddenly hit an incredible sound. Everything suddenly comes together (including the other performers in the background clapping in time with the band), and the boys are really playing bluegrass.
Red
Red Henry
www.murphymethod.com/red2.html
Edited by - maplebridge48 on 06/12/2008 06:21:30
farley - Posted - 06/12/2008: 18:05:33
Banjoitus,
I don't say much about how good Earl is on here anymore because there's always someone ready to send in the cruise missles, and try to shoot it down.
But when it comes to Earl Scruggs, Rodney Dillard said it best...
"Listening to Earl Scruggs on the 5-string banjo, is like capturing sunlight in a bottle"
I'll take a case. Farley
