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bing - Posted - 04/29/2007: 22:18:28
I bought 'John burke's book of old time fiddle tunes for banjo' many years ago and still have it, tattered and torn (by grandchildren) and yellowed with age but still use it and like it. I always thought from the text that John Burke knew people like Wade Ward, Kyle Creed, Fred Cockerhan and others personally and studied their styles first hand. He particularly idolised Wade Ward. I finally got the County records of the definitive Wade Ward etc Clawhammer banjo. I was dismayed to find out that JB's Tab does not always accuratley reflect the references made in the book. eg tuning given for Mississippi Sawyer Wade Ward version, is standard C in the book, but the record notes say he plays it in double C. A few other inconsistencies can be found. I don't think JB's transcription of Wade's Old Joe Clarke is exactly how he plays it on the record either...yet JB praises the tune as the epitome of clawhammer. That doesn't matter though...its still a great book and fairly easy to follow although some of the left hand work is difficult. But Burke says in the intro...work out your own if it suits you. So that's good advice. Anyway why didn't he make more recordings? His playing on the book record sample is excellent. Where is he now? Anybody know? I havn't actually searched the net...yet.
Bing
chip arnold - Posted - 04/29/2007: 22:35:21
I think he retired from a non musical career and is playing fiddle in a bluegrass band. There are three copies of his banjo book at Amazon starting at $114.00! His tab is a bit confusing at times but my old copy had a little vinyl record with it. I still have mine and still get it out now and then. I love his arrangements.
Play with a plan
Chip
oldtimer - Posted - 04/29/2007: 22:50:56
John cannot play banjo anymore because of a shoulder injury, but he is an avid fiddle player. He is also very thoughtful participant on the Fiddle-L forum. I just got a message from him today. His messages are always full of interesting insights into music.
stay tooned,
Glenn Godsey
"Time passes unhindered"
bing - Posted - 04/30/2007: 00:39:53
quote:
Originally posted by chip arnold
I think he retired from a non musical career and is playing fiddle in a bluegrass band. There are three copies of his banjo book at Amazon starting at $114.00! His tab is a bit confusing at times but my old copy had a little vinyl record with it. I still have mine and still get it out now and then. I love his arrangements.
Play with a plan
Chip
The book I had didn't come with a vinyl sampler, but somhow later on I managed to get a tape of it. I seem to remember a friend bought a full vinyl LP of the tunes from somewhere, but I have never been able to find it. Its good to hear he is still around and playing music, but a pity he can't play tha banjo anymore. His book is out of print..that's why mine is patched up cos I can't get a new one. Should be reissued. The introductory notes in the book are worth reading and show a good knowledge of the idiom as well as good advice about playing and reading music. Mind you I believe the system of writing music which is universally accepted in all genres is capable of providing the player all that is required in terms of timing, rhythym, dynamics etc and explanatory notes can also advise on tonal quality...what more do you need ...except feeling. I agree, Chip, his arrangements are superb..there's a lifetime of banjo enjoyment in the book. He should be in some banjo Hall of Fame if there was one.
Bing
Richard - Posted - 04/30/2007: 09:02:27
hi all,
I scored a copy of John's book ( complete with record) on ebaya while ago for a nice price. I agree with the tab - i probably prefer miles krassen's book - which i got in the same sale.
i love the insight into the folk scene when the book was written - foreign to me but fascinating. and the photos are a treat too. there area few tabs that have been great, provided you nkow the tune reasonably well.
richard
"There is nothing whatsoever that does not become easier with acquaintance" - Santideva
Latitude- Original and Traditional Folk and Blues http://www.geocities.com/bottleneck...atitude.html
trapdoor2 - Posted - 04/30/2007: 09:38:48
Um, anyone got the soundsheet transferred to mp3? I bought the book new but the soundsheet is long gone. After thirty-some-odd years, I've finally re-discovered this book.
"If banjos needed tone rings, S.S. Stewart would have built 'em that way."
===Marc
banjogud - Posted - 04/30/2007: 11:28:44
I`d be interested in that soundsheet as well. I got a copy of his book just a couple years back on amazon,....cost $35 (which I thought was kinda steep!),...but it is outta print sooo...
Life is like a banjo,..ya never know whatcha gonna get. 
oldtimer - Posted - 04/30/2007: 12:53:05
John wrote that book when he was still a student in college. The book was extremely innovative at the time. Nothing had been published on Wade Ward and other major figures...the book was an eye-opener for many. I learned Wade Ward's astonishing take on Old Joe Clark from the book and I have played it several times with Mike Seeger over the years. Mike thinks it is fine. The tablature system actually makes perfect sense if you have the recordings. John put out an LP with some of the great tunes with his OT group, "The Old Hat Band". John's version of Sally in the Garden has become a classic modal tune and I just heard Mike Long play it a couple of weeks ago.
John retired from Microsoft at age 53 about 10 years ago. His very astute insights into music and fiddling are fascinating and just his e-mails and posts would make a nice little book of essays. A very intelligent man.
Best regards,
Glenn Godsey
"Time passes unhindered"
Edited by - oldtimer on 04/30/2007 12:56:14
ndlxs - Posted - 04/30/2007: 13:43:54
Long ago (in the 1980s) Banjo Newsletter published a series of articles in which the author took the John Burke tabs and reformatted them to make sense rhythmically.
The Burke book has some good fingerstyle stuff in there too; I play something close to his version of Needlecase.
Andy Alexis
Sacramento, California
"The Pearl of the Central Valley"
Buy my CDs:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/pineycreek
and
http://www.offtocalifornia.com
chip arnold - Posted - 04/30/2007: 13:51:23
I learned Sally in the Garden first from his book and then later from an old Crockett Family 78. It was close to A flat minor on the record (which is on Honking Duck) so I tuned to the record to learn it then moved it up to A minor. That's the version I play now although it's easy enough to transpose to double D.
Play with a plan
Chip
bing - Posted - 04/30/2007: 21:58:18
quote:
Originally posted by chip arnold
I learned Sally in the Garden first from his book and then later from an old Crockett Family 78. It was close to A flat minor on the record (which is on Honking Duck) so I tuned to the record to learn it then moved it up to A minor. That's the version I play now although it's easy enough to transpose to double D.
Play with a plan
Chip
Yes, Sally in the Garden is one of my favourites and stands out as unique compared to the other dance tunes. Its hauntng and to me sounds middle eastern. I learnt it from the Tab long before I ever heard the record, so it is possible to play from the tab without knowing the tune. Ihave never heard anyone else record it or even play it publically. But then I've led a sheltered life.
Bing
bing - Posted - 04/30/2007: 22:01:09
quote:
Originally posted by trapdoor2
Um, anyone got the soundsheet transferred to mp3? I bought the book new but the soundsheet is long gone. After thirty-some-odd years, I've finally re-discovered this book.
"If banjos needed tone rings, S.S. Stewart would have built 'em that way."
===Marc
I do have it converted to MP3 but its 16.7Mb.
Bing
Laura Voorhis - Posted - 04/30/2007: 22:35:13
quote:
I do have it converted to MP3 but its 16.7Mb.
Bing - I'd love to have a copy of that! I bought the book used, but it has no sound recording. Could we please arrange it somehow???
Cheers!
Laura
bing - Posted - 05/01/2007: 00:24:41
quote:
Originally posted by Laura Voorhis
quote:
I do have it converted to MP3 but its 16.7Mb.
Bing - I'd love to have a copy of that! I bought the book used, but it has no sound recording. Could we please arrange it somehow???
Cheers!
Laura
OK, I am going to try ad put it on my hangout site. Trapdoor also requested it.
Bing
Laura Voorhis - Posted - 05/01/2007: 00:42:33
quote:
OK, I am going to try ad put it on my hangout site. Trapdoor also requested it.
Thank you in advance!!!
Cheers!
Laura
bing - Posted - 05/01/2007: 17:59:31
quote:
Originally posted by Laura Voorhis
quote:
OK, I am going to try ad put it on my hangout site. Trapdoor also requested it.
Thank you in advance!!!
Cheers!
Laura
all together there are 13 tunes. (That's all I have) I'll eventually get them all there but it takes a while. I'm doing it at work. cheers
Bing
bing - Posted - 05/01/2007: 18:08:54
quote:
Originally posted by banjopogo
I've enjoyed the discussion
about John Burke- I had his book too.
That was the book that converted me to being a fiddler-
such notey fiddle tunes are such hard work on banjo,
that I don't think it's any harder learning them on fiddle!
I did learn and still use the Wade Ward version of June Apple,
and learned Rocky Mountain Goat and Jaybird well
enough to transfer them to fiddle.
That's probably where I learned Sally in the Garden, too.
Michael
mp3 page: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088/
hifi radio: http://ezfolk.com/audio/play.php?mode=radio&id=481
lofi radio: http://ezfolk.com/audio/play.php?mode=radio&id=522
"We have met the Enemy, and he is us!"- Walt Kelly's "Pogo"
Yes, I think JB's arrangements...especially his own variations are very melodic and could easily be transferred to fiddle note for note. He obviously had a good ear for melody and melodic variations, so it never gets tedious. In fact some of the tunes which sound a bit monotonous when frailed on the original (egBuck Creek Girl) sound very interesting and melodic when JB plays them. I particularly like his variations on Mississippi Sawyer and Arkansas Traveller. I often try and play his notes on the guitar and mandolin...challenging and fun.
Bing
Laura Voorhis - Posted - 05/02/2007: 01:46:28
quote:
all together there are 13 tunes. (That's all I have) I'll eventually get them all there but it takes a while. I'm doing it at work.
Bing - Thank you SOOOOO much for all your effort & time to do this. I just downloaded the 13 cuts & burned them to a CD. I'm listening to it as I type. You're a prime example of what makes this forum a great place!
Cheers!
Laura
banjopogo - Posted - 05/03/2007: 02:32:37
Bing,
Thanks, I just downloaded them too.
Looking at the titles, it made me realize I was probably indebted
to John for my fiddle versions of Sandy River Belle and Rickett's
as well, 2 of my favorite tunes. Probably Mississippi Sawyer's
and Arkansas Traveller too. Definitely Black Eyed Suzy.
Really, it formed the core of my jamming repertoire.
The right book at the right time, for sure!
I never did learn Sally Johnson, or Buck Creek.
You know, I don't think the edition of Burke's book I had
even had the record- either that, or someone had swiped it!
But a quick listen to one of the mp3's makes me think
it was recorded while he was with the Olde Hat Band,
which I remember seeing at the San Diego Folk Festival about
1974, but I think I got the book 2 years earlier.
If there was no record, and if the tab was counterintuitive
rhythmically, that might explain why I had a hard time getting
some of the tunes.
Maybe I'll get around to learning them now, 34 years later!
I remember not liking the Olde Hat Band at the time.
I think it was mostly the Medicine Show shtick they did-
it rubbed me the wrong way.
I guess I just have an aversion to pushy salesmen,
whether real or re-enacted!
I can see now that it's
actually kind of an authentic historical thing-
that's how Arkansas Traveller and the accompanying skit
got spread, and probably many other tunes as well.
Thanks Again!
Michael
mp3 page: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088/
hifi radio: http://ezfolk.com/audio/play.php?mode=radio&id=481
lofi radio: http://ezfolk.com/audio/play.php?mode=radio&id=522
"We have met the Enemy, and he is us!"- Walt Kelly's "Pogo"
bing - Posted - 05/03/2007: 03:31:15
Listening to those scratchy old demonstartion grabs, they still convey the joyous feeling of a raucous, happy old time hillbilly band that probably didn't mind a bit of Moonshine and mischief. I think the Highwoods string band picked up on that too and they were great to listen too. I can't understand why they split in acrimony. Anyway John Burke made it pretty clear he was't producing an instructional book, but was presenting some old time fiddle tunes for banjo that someone might like to play. the more I use it the more I think how clever he was. I'm sure he influenced a lot of clawhammerers and fiddlers and exposed some tunes that were obscure but are now standards. I too am a bit dubious about groups who wear costumes and try and make a production out of their performances..but that's showbiz I guess...as long as the music is sincere...
Bing
banjogud - Posted - 05/04/2007: 07:42:39
quote:
Originally posted by Laura Voorhis
quote:
all together there are 13 tunes. (That's all I have) I'll eventually get them all there but it takes a while. I'm doing it at work.
Bing - Thank you SOOOOO much for all your effort & time to do this. I just downloaded the 13 cuts & burned them to a CD. I'm listening to it as I type. You're a prime example of what makes this forum a great place!
Cheers!
Laura
AMEN ! Thanks for doing that Bing!
Life is like a banjo,..ya never know whatcha gonna get.
SteveK - Posted - 05/04/2007: 08:22:30
quote:
Originally posted by chip arnold
IThere are three copies of his banjo book at Amazon starting at $114.00! .
Someone was looking for a copy of that book a few years ago. I checked at a local music store and they had it in their delete bin. I think I paid three or four dollars (CDN) for it and sold it to the guy who was looking for it for the same amount. I already had a copy. Another book which I bought for a modest price (The Northern Fiddler) was going for $250 on ebay a couple of years ago. I should learn to keep this stuff.
I've never had the LP that goes with it and had never heard it. Thanks for putting those tunes up, Bing.
Wander - Posted - 05/04/2007: 08:37:06
I bought the book new about ten or fifteen years ago, with the record. The recordings sounded so old and scratched, even on the new disc, that I always wondered if this was John Burke himself or the original sources he got the music from.
In my ears the tabs in the book are not exact transcriptions from the music on the record. Apart from the mentioned free rhythmic notation, there are many differences.
But both the book and the record are very inspiring!!
jasperr - Posted - 05/04/2007: 15:27:47
Wow. I hadn't heard those JB tunes in probably 20 years. really brought back memories. Thanks very much, Bing, for posting them.
Jim
gdtrfb24 - Posted - 05/05/2007: 09:28:19
same here...have the book, but lost the record years ago. hearing all those pops and scratches sure brings back memories of my old record collection. need to let the kids listen to the good ole days of music recordings. *lol*
bferris - Posted - 06/13/2007: 23:22:05
I had a tape at one time of John Burke and the Old Hat Band. I think it was titled 'Fancy Pickin and Plain Singing". Unfortunately I no longer have a copy. If anyone knows where a copy of this could be acquired i would appreciate the info. Thanks.
teddy111 - Posted - 06/14/2007: 03:53:09
I had the book more than 35 years ago... and sold it with a collection of others musical books in a period when I needed money
... !
I have the chance to find it last week on eBay Germany, complete with the vinyl and as new as in a library for the sum of... 9 euro... or +/- 12 US $... a very good deal, isn't it !
My opinion is that if you search for some very special books like this one, the best way is Ebay Europe... these books (Burke, Miles Krassen, Art Rosenbaum) are not over evalued here !
Take a look at my site : http://homeusers.brutele.be/goodtimerollers/
Edited by - teddy111 on 06/14/2007 03:56:58
thelowlybassplayer - Posted - 08/14/2007: 22:57:40
Please forgive my intrusion here, bass players must live vicariously... The John Burke album you want to find is; "Old Fashioned Dance Music" with "The Yankee Carpetbaggers". It's the true companion to the book. John in his purest form..
They sing to the music, but they dance to the bass...
Edited by - thelowlybassplayer on 08/14/2007 23:12:42
bing - Posted - 08/15/2007: 19:26:51
quote:
Originally posted by thelowlybassplayer
Please forgive my intrusion here, bass players must live vicariously... The John Burke album you want to find is; "Old Fashioned Dance Music" with "The Yankee Carpetbaggers". It's the true companion to the book. John in his purest form..
They sing to the music, but they dance to the bass...
Can it be purchased as a CD anywhere?
Bing
thelowlybassplayer - Posted - 08/15/2007: 23:18:54
Not that I’ve ever been able to find, and I’ve been searching for it in any form for a long time. Found a copy only recently. Here’s what I know about it;
Union Records #1352, published June 1968 [apparently a private label]
Union Records
1502 52nd Street
Brooklyn, NY 11219
John Burke: Banjo
Ken Kosek: Fiddle
Andy May; Guitar
Ralph Smith: Harmonica & Dulcimer
What I didn’t know until I actually got the record; [quote from the back cover]:
“see: ‘John Burke’s Book of Old Time Fiddle Tunes for Banjo’ Amsco Publications , 1968, for tablatures of all tunes on this record.”
And every cut on the record is referenced to a page number in the book…
tlbp
They sing to the music, but they dance to the bass...
daniel9 - Posted - 08/16/2007: 09:58:04
You know I'm almost positive I had this album, but I just finished digging through my collection and I can't find it.
I'll look again later...
Daniel
frodo1mjg - Posted - 08/16/2007: 15:12:11
I would be willing to send my brand new copy of the record to someone who has the technology and equipment to digitize it. Please anyone with an old "Barbie record player hooked up to thier old Commodore computer do not apply. other wise e-mail me and we'll make arrangments
brokenstrings - Posted - 08/19/2007: 21:50:37
Yeah, and you once promised to send me a transcription of "Forky Deer" from it, Ronnie! Or have I got that wrong?
Jessy
Frailaway, ladies, frailaway!
banjogud - Posted - 08/20/2007: 08:41:43
quote:
Originally posted by frodo1mjg
I would be willing to send my brand new copy of the record to someone who has the technology and equipment to digitize it. Please anyone with an old "Barbie record player hooked up to thier old Commodore computer do not apply. other wise e-mail me and we'll make arrangments
Pleeeeese! Get in toutch with oldwoodchuckb. Tony does this kinda thing,...and pretty well I might add..
http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/t...PIC_ID=90722then,..smebbe he can send me a copy
Life is like a banjo,..ya never know whatcha gonna get.
Edited by - banjogud on 08/20/2007 08:42:55
LEUllman - Posted - 08/23/2007: 19:51:57
Thanks, Bing, for posting those mp3s. I must say, JB's "Turkey in the Straw" rocks!
"Ring, ring the banjo, I love that good old song."
brokenstrings - Posted - 08/23/2007: 21:22:30
Thanks, Ronnie.
Jessy
Frailaway, ladies, frailaway!
Tackhead - Posted - 08/24/2007: 08:15:46
quote:
Originally posted by LEUllman
Thanks, Bing, for posting those mp3s. I must say, JB's "Turkey in the Straw" rocks!
"Ring, ring the banjo, I love that good old song."
And the mp3's are where? Or did I miss something?
Thanks.
~John
John Flynn
Tallahassee, FL
daniel9 - Posted - 08/24/2007: 09:49:04
quote:
Originally posted by Tackhead
And the mp3's are where? Or did I miss something? Thanks.
Bing's homepage.
Daniel
Edited by - daniel9 on 08/24/2007 09:49:38
gberg3rd - Posted - 08/26/2007: 09:44:22
My copy of JB's book was bought 1974, and is falling apart. I've started making PDF files of those tunes I like best to preserve them. I also still have the vinyl....somewhere.
Interesting to see the names I started with in here. I've been wondering for years about some of these folk. Thanks for the update on John. Anybody know what happed to Eric Muller after he and Barbara Koehler did "Frailing- An Instuction Manual"? BTW - I agree with LEUllmans's comment on JB's Turkey in the Straw.
GB3
frailin' and flailin' along
Tackhead - Posted - 08/27/2007: 07:41:32
quote:
Originally posted by gberg3rd
[brAnybody know what happed to Eric Muller after he and Barbara Koehler did "Frailing- An Instuction Manual"? BTW - I agree with LEUllmans's comment on JB's Turkey in the Straw.
GB3
frailin' and flailin' along
These guys got me started. Their book is still available, now with a CD. I still have the LP.
~John
John Flynn
Tallahassee, FL
gberg3rd - Posted - 08/27/2007: 18:00:44
Me too, John, in1974. First song I learned to play without the book was The Hounddog Song. Lived in Alaska at the time. The banjo was good company when it was too cold to go out. I was thrilled to find the book in print and got the "new" one with the CD 5-6 years back. Still do wonder what happend to the 34th Street Laundromat Band and Eric.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
These guys got me started. Their book is still available, now with a CD. I still have the LP.
~John
John Flynn
Tallahassee, FL
[/quote]
GB3
frailin' and flailin' along
inniepie - Posted - 08/31/2007: 01:41:19
I have the book and vinyl record, I still love it, it's a classic......
"I don't claim to know that tune"
Charlie Acuff
kjcole - Posted - 04/09/2008: 13:53:35
I worked with Eric Muller while I was a grad student at the U of Wisconsin from 1977-1987. He had a PhD in physics I believe, from Florida- Gainsville. At that time he was studying the biomechanics of facial muscles, and came to work everyday in bibbed overalls, frequently without a shirt in summer. He frailed a flat-head Gibson Mastertone, and eventually put together a string band that played the Madison area for a few years. He played a little fiddle too. A unique and interesting man who taught me a lot about lot's of things. He was working on a book of classic/parlor fingerstyle banjo back then, but I don't know what became of it.
He moved on to the University of Iowa (ironic, since I ended up on the U of Iowa's faculty), but passed away from liver failure at a fairly young age.
Since I've long moved on to 3-finger style and bluegrass, I think it's time I sell some of my clawhammer instruction books from the 70's. I have Perlman's Melodic Clawhammer with the plastic sheet record (Oak, 1979)), John Burke's Book of Old Time Fiddle Tunes for Banjo, with the plastic sheet record (AMSCO, 1968), and Mel Bay's Clawhammer Banjo Solos - "On Modal and In the Irish Tradition" by Alec Slater (Mel Bay, 1979). My tattered copy of the Muller and Koehler book stays with me! I'll post a for sale here at some point, or if anyone's interested they can PM me.
Kelly
dustyelmer - Posted - 04/09/2008: 15:26:07
thanks a ton for posting the mp3's of the tunes in the book, really cool. i wish that book was still in print. it's on the back of my Miles Krassen book and i was going to order it if it was still available. speaking of Miles Krassen, anyone know if his Appalachian Fiddle book is still available? what is he doing nowadays anyway?
- Dusty
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 04/11/2008: 00:35:03
I kind of wonder if I'm the only person in the world with a copy of Burke's "Old Hat Band" record. I think it must be a lot rarer than his banjo book.
Rocket Science Banjo, Chapters 1 - 4.2 REVISED and 25 EZ tunes are ready now
oldwoodchuckb@yahoo.com
You can watch the videos for some Rocket Science Banjo subjects starting here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdRuf4X0X7g
