rkdjones - Posted - 03/10/2026:  11:53:47

I'm hoping to gain a better understanding of drone notes. Bagpipes are an example of continuous drone which creates a dissonance (to my ear). Yet it is a music that can be pleasing. I don't really know where to start with this question: why does it work to play a drone that is maybe only a semitone off the melody notes?

There is a practical side to this question. I ask myself whether it is worth tuning the fifth string from G to A when I capo and play a tune in the key of A. The fifth string is dissonant with the V chord when playing in the key of G, so maybe it doesn't matter. Playing alone, I can tell if it works for me or not, but playing in a group is another matter. Is it like singing off key, and to be avoided?

davidppp - Posted - 03/10/2026:  12:08:46

Here's my take: music is the whole thing, not just one note or two notes in succession. Also, music is learned and cultural. Playing in a group? It will depend on the group.

The only things I know of that are the same across all cultures are octaves and fifths (with frequencies within human hearing resolution or tolerance).

janolov - Posted - 03/10/2026:  12:12:57

Don't call it dissonance! I prefer to call it ringing, and that is a normal part of the banjo playing.

Originally drones (on banjo, bag-pipes, pipes and other instrument) were used without chord accompaniments, and use of drone was a way to make the music fuller without using chords. In most cases the drone was the root note (or octave of the root) (for example G in G tuning), or the fifth (for example g in C tuning). The use of root or fifth as a drone give a minimum of "dissonance". If you skip retuning the fifth when you capo to A, the drone will be a seventh, which probably will interfere with other harmonies played in the song. But there are examples when people have tuned the drone string to a seventh, and it may sound OK for some special tunes, but not as a rule.

Drones are used in many kind of music, not only banjo music. Drums and cymbals often give a rhythmic droning sound, triangles in school orchestras are another example.

Old Hickory - Posted - 03/10/2026:  12:42:00

quote:

---

Originally posted by rkdjones

I ask myself whether it is worth tuning the fifth string from G to A when I capo and play a tune in the key of A.

---

Of course it is. When you capo, you're keeping the same relative tuning of strings to each other and simply relocating the nut. The capo becomes in effect the new nut on a shorter scale banjo tuned to A.

In G tuning, the fifth string open is the same note as first string fifth fret. To keep that relationship so that capoing at 2 lets you play songs in A AS IF in G (meaning you use all the chord shapes, roll patterns and licks you know in G), you MUST either capo the fifth string at seventh fret (A) or tune the string up to A. Leaving it at G doesn't work.

If you fret the fifth string at all, you would do better to capo it at 7 for A. Otherwise, you have to fret it two frets out of relative position, which can be difficult both to remember and execute. If you never fret the fifth string, then simply tuning it up to A is fine.

That's all for the practical reason you must move the fifth string to A when capoing at two.

A fundamental musical reason for doing it, I believe, is that G is not a note in the key of A. I have a feeling it will sound more dissonant than it does when it's a non-chord tone in G tuning and key of G (such as in the D, B7 and E chords that come up bluegrass songs in G).  I think the different function of D, B7 and E chords in A vs G will make a difference in our perception of a G note in them.

I have not tested this.

quote:

---

Originally posted by rkdjones

why does it work to play a drone that is maybe only a semitone off the melody notes?

---

I don't know.

Harmony is a mysterious thing. The fifth string non-chord, sometimes non-scale, note is fleeting, not around long enough for us to notice that maybe it doesn't belong. But because It's part of the sound of banjo, or even creates the sound of the banjo, it does belong.

Except for answering this question when it comes up, I don't think much about the fifth string.

Old Hickory - Posted - 03/10/2026:  12:45:38

quote:

---

Originally posted by janolov

Drones are used in many kind of music, not only banjo music. Drums and cymbals often give a rhythmic droning sound, triangles in school orchestras are another example.

---

Excellent examples! Drums have notes.

pinenut - Posted - 03/10/2026:  13:14:22

quote:

---

Originally posted by rkdjones

There is a practical side to this question. I ask myself whether it is worth tuning the fifth string from G to A when I capo and play a tune in the key of A.  Yes, the fifth must change with the rest of the strings or the instrument will not be in tune.

Is it like singing off key, and to be avoided?  Exactly.

---

rkdjones - Posted - 03/10/2026:  13:26:07

Point taken, G is not even in the scale of A major. Guess I need to work out tuning the fifth string up. Retuning is no fun in the middle of a session. I know that there are a few 5 string banjos out there with the 5th string running all the way up to the peg head; easy to capo up. I've thought that if I ever have a banjo neck made I would make it that way.

Interesting how the drone string affects the overall mood of the music, even played in a major key without accidentals. As pointed out, it does not ring long. And maybe it gives the 5-string that unique sound.

As an aside, I have been playing clawhammer backup on a tenor banjo in reentrant tuning (high 4th string). The key of the song is always changing as we go around the circle in the bluegrass session. Other banjo players put their banjos down and pick up a guitar for those keys that don't fit their banjo tuning, but I just keep playing.

Tim Jumper - Posted - 03/10/2026:  16:39:37

Don't be afraid to experiment with a re-tuned drone string. I often use a lowered D in G-tuning and a lowered C in double-C tuning, for which I use an .012 fifth string, with spikes for raising it up to G or A.
And keep in mind that you're not obliged to use the drone. You can choose not to play it when it clashes too jarringly with the underlying chordal harmony, e.g. in an E major chord when playing in the key of G.

Old Hickory - Posted - 03/10/2026:  17:49:57

quote:

---

Originally posted by rkdjones

I know that there are a few 5 string banjos out there with the 5th string running all the way up to the peg head

---

Yes.

quote:

easy to capo up. 

---

No.

While the string on such a neck runs all the way to the peghead, it is still reentrant at the fifth fret with a pip or spike. Also, the string is usually tunneled from the fifth fret to the peghead. So putting a capo at 2nd fret, for exmple, does not affect the fifth string. It still needs to be spiked or capoed at the 7th fret or tuned a whole step up.

Edited by - Old Hickory on 03/10/2026 17:50:26

rkdjones - Posted - 03/10/2026:  22:00:40

Ken,
We are not talking about the same thing. I am referring to a fifth string that is tuned higher than the first and runs to the nut. This is what I was referring to:
youtube.com/watch?v=vW9d1O27Yag

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 03/10/2026:  22:19:14

Instead of thinking of dissonance as something unpleasant to be avoided, think of it as an essential element that causes music to move through time. Music is either in motion, or it is at rest. You can think of it like a series of waves. When your ears hear dissonance, they want the sound to be resolved (for instance a V7 => I chord). Too much dissonance can be irritating. Not enough, and it's boring.

johnedallas - Posted - 03/11/2026:  04:59:32

"Drone" is a word that we should use carefully. It has different meanings, depending on context. The basic meaning is "A continuous sound of unchanging pitch," such as the "drone" of a piston-engined aircraft flying overhead. In music, this meaning applies to instruments like bagpipes and hurdy-gurdies. As long as the bag is pressed or the wheel turned, the drone is continuous and unvarying in pitch.
In the context of the Anglo concertina, the meaning is different. This is a bisonoric instrument on which a given button gives two different notes, depending on whether the bellows is pressed or drawn. However, some examples of the Anglo have one or two buttons that give the same note on the press and the draw, and we call these "drone buttons." The note on the button is not continuous - it sounds only when pressed - but it is not variable, as the notes on all the other buttons are.
For me, the banjo's 5th string fits the concertina definition - it doesn't sound all the time, but when it sounds, the note is always the same (I'm one of those average banjoists who don't fret the 5th string.)

Interstingly, the "true" drone instruments, bagpipe and hurdy-gurdy, only allow a single-line melody to be played, not chords or double-stops. It's the relationship between the drone note and the momentary melody note that creates the "dissonance" and "resolution" that Laurence Diehl mentioned.

Cheers,
John

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 03/11/2026:  07:57:41

quote:

---

Originally posted by rkdjones

Ken,

We are not talking about the same thing. I am referring to a fifth string that is tuned higher than the first and runs to the nut. This is what I was referring to:

youtube.com/watch?v=vW9d1O27Yag

---

Nechville also had a model with five full-length strings, but his design had the open 5th string tuned to a D, BUT with a built-in sliding 5th-string capo. For regular G tuning you'd capo that string at the 5th fret (G), but you'd have the option of capoing it lower if you wanted. One side effect of that setup is that no matter where you capo it--no matter what note the 5th string is set for--the fretted notes on the 5th string are the same as in regular G tuning. That's NOT the case if you retune the string on a standard banjo.



While we usually tune the 5th string to a note from the root chord--most often I or V, but sometimes III, especially for playing in D, as in Scruggs' "Reuben"--there are other possibilities that might work. For some songs, playing in uncapo'd D and leaving the 5th string at G can be OK; I suspect this depends on the melody and chord progression of the particular tune in question, but I haven't gone any deeper into that question.



Uncapo'd F with the 5th string at G--the II note--works well; the II note is pretty neutral harmonically. Similarly, if you're playing in uncapo'd E, you might tune the 5th string down to an F#. But if you're playing in uncapo'd E on a particularly bluesy tune, leaving it at G--the flatted III note, which is a big feature of the minor pentatonic (blues) scale--can often work, too.

RB-1 - Posted - 03/11/2026:  10:06:56

quote:

---

Originally posted by johnedallas

For me, the banjo's 5th string fits the concertina definition - it doesn't sound all the time, but when it sounds, the note is always the same (I'm one of those average banjoists who don't fret the 5th string.)



Interestingly, the "true" drone instruments, bagpipe and hurdy-gurdy, only allow a single-line melody to be played, not chords or double-stops. 

---

About 'average',  fretting the 5th string is not an advanced technique, it's basic stuff that pickers should know once out of their inital phase. Better replace average here by 'very few'.

Thinking of bagpipes, this might be the reason that Uileann pipes are by far my favorite, because of their 'regulators', adding harmonies and the occasional counter melody.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 03/11/2026:  12:09:55

The general rule: do not pinch dissonant notes, but roll them.

Tractor1 - Posted - 03/11/2026:  13:36:40

all notes are dissonant to some degree to all others--what sounds best depends on the volume and placement in the time of the co mingling and also how many of the thousands of waves coincide------ by hitting their crest together for harmony-- so best to use your ear and season to taste--pretty similar to cooking a good dish

pipe organs have a long history of choosing harmonious pipes and the amount each adds  to the voice

my opinion I ask no agreement--

as far as retuning to A if it is a scruggs style where the note is to be hit for simple ringing in the back ground --I would only hit the G when it was part of the chord --if retuned to A I would also only play it when A was part of the chord--I don't have a good enough ear to try to play the open g all the time--of course G is important part of the A7 if it comes up in other keys or the Key of A itself

Edited by - Tractor1 on 03/11/2026 13:51:48

Tractor1 - Posted - 03/11/2026:  13:42:28

in a rare occasion pinching a dissonant sound is the correct thing--I use one in pink panther--it says something nothing else says as good--

my sole opinion i ask no agreement

my favorite is 2 notes a half step or full step apart--dominant sevenths and other chords always have this in their line-up

Edited by - Tractor1 on 03/11/2026 13:46:17

Nopix - Posted - 03/11/2026:  13:57:47

Huh. I had to get out a tuner and check. When I capo 2 (A), I detune the 5th to an E. Remember it's music theory not music law.

banjoak - Posted - 03/11/2026:  14:42:00

quote:

---

Originally posted by rkdjones

I'm hoping to gain a better understanding of drone notes. Bagpipes are an example of continuous drone which creates a dissonance (to my ear). Yet it is a music that can be pleasing. I don't really know where to start with this question: why does it work to play a drone that is maybe only a semitone off the melody notes?



There is a practical side to this question. I ask myself whether it is worth tuning the fifth string from G to A when I capo and play a tune in the key of A. The fifth string is dissonant with the V chord when playing in the key of G, so maybe it doesn't matter. Playing alone, I can tell if it works for me or not, but playing in a group is another matter. Is it like singing off key, and to be avoided?

---

Playing in A and leaving the fifth tuned to G. It is the flat seventh to to the key of A; and would be difficult to incorporate if going for solid A major feel/resolve. if it's supposed to feel of a solid A major sounding tune, then others you play with are more likely going to just hear the G as not fitting, out of tune.

However it might work fine for some modal A mixolydian tunes, as the flat seventh is part of that, and a lot of melodic licks use e/g/a (as opposed to e/f#/a in A major). Just different overall feel. Even then, though it's an option can work for those tunes,to make every A mixolydian tune fit that g fifth, can get a bit overused and tiring. I mostly limit it's use; still tune the fifth to an A, as it's just more stable and useful.

The fifth string is dissonant with the V chord when playing in the key of G, so maybe it doesn't matter.

I don't know if idea of Dissonant is great way to think about it, as can be confusing. I suppose technically any random off key, or just out of tune note could qualify as dissonance. But generally it's not any random, and but give a specific type of tension and/or direction, to a resolve/stable.

The fifth string (g) in a V, (D) chord is a different feel or function (than above flat seventh), that might be as a leading tone, or create sus4 type tension... that wants to resolve to some more stable.

Related is that drones are often the tonal center, and keeps connected to that the is the tonal center, including the V. Some of leading or sus typically want to resolve back to tonal center.

Playing alone, I can tell if it works for me or not, but playing in a group is another matter. Is it like singing off key, and to be avoided?

Hmmm... always a tough to reply; yes, you can play whatever you think sounds good, including some odd/unusual harmonic or rhythmic choices; and not necessarily be avoided, as might sound good; but reality check, listen close, and ask will listeners, or esp those playing with a group...  going to hear it that way or get that sensation, does it sound good or better to them?

This is especially true with folks idea of dissonant, some folks love the idea of seemingly random "wild" notes, (similar with timing/rhythm)... as mysterious, exotic, amazing, creative, different, novelty, shock, chaos, unexpected, out of the ordinary; but no other actual musical sense, rhyme or reason. Others might be tough to sell that to, they just hear as maybe incoherent, nonsense, gibberish; poor playing.

Edited by - banjoak on 03/11/2026 14:47:48

Dean T - Posted - 03/11/2026:  19:32:36

Don’t know of it belongs in this thread. But awhile back at band practice, we played “Life is like a mountain railroad” in G. It sounded different but cool, and kind of clanky… like a train, especially when I did a full pull in places for a train whistle, and alternating high d and g strings for crossing bells. It wasn’t until the next song, that I noticed I had forgotten to unspike the 5th string, and had played the song in G, but 5th spiked at a. I didn’t have a clue it would work, until I did it by accident. I’ve been playing it that way since.

davidppp - Posted - 03/11/2026:  20:55:30

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dean T

Don’t know of it belongs in this thread. But awhile back at band practice, we played “Life is like a mountain railroad” in G. It sounded different but cool, and kind of clanky… like a train, especially when I did a full pull in places for a train whistle, and alternating high d and g strings for crossing bells. It wasn’t until the next song, that I noticed I had forgotten to unspike the 5th string, and had played the song in G, but 5th spiked at a. I didn’t have a clue it would work, until I did it by accident. I’ve been playing it that way since.

---

You mean "A Miner's Life Is Like a Sailor's"?  ;)  youtube.com/watch?v=lMwxXyH3DEU

Dean T - Posted - 03/12/2026:  05:41:48

Wow, definitely the same song… never heard that before!

Alex Z - Posted - 03/12/2026:  10:37:17

And, you can play your break on "My Little Georgia Rose" to either one of them!

A three-fer, as they say. 

Old Hickory - Posted - 03/12/2026:  11:10:23

quote:

---

Originally posted by rkdjones

We are not talking about the same thing. I am referring to a fifth string that is tuned higher than the first and runs to the nut. This is what I was referring to:

youtube.com/watch?v=vW9d1O27Yag

---

I totally forgot that I had seen this years ago.

I assume very few people have done this. But it sure can be done.