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MattCee - Posted - 02/03/2026: 15:46:11
I'm working my way through Tony Trischka's "The Complete 5-String Banjo Player" and there is an arrangement of John Hardy where you play a series of forward rolls on the 4, 3, 2 strings. The pattern is not difficult, but getting a good, clean strike on the second string with my middle finger is not intuitive.
Any advice on how to pick the second string with the third finger beyond just practice? TIA.
Photo of the forward roll in question.
Edited by - MattCee on 02/03/2026 15:49:57
RB3 - Posted - 02/03/2026: 16:19:49
I've always heard this referred to as an "inside roll". If you've learned the standard Scruggs rolls, it can be difficult to do this. I don't think that there's any secret to it; It just takes practice and discipline, but once you can do it, all sorts of possibilities become available to you.
chuckv97 - Posted - 02/03/2026: 16:25:16
Some people rest their right ring finger against the first string for stability. I started very slowly,, when my thumb picked the 4th string, I simultaneously placed my index pick against the 3rd,,, when I picked with the index I placed my middle finger pick against the 2nd string,,, rinse and repeat. I began at a slow metronome beat and slowly increased speed.
Tractor1 - Posted - 02/03/2026: 16:37:59
I do the inside middle --but I am still a wimp after decades--especially when it gets into melodic style --which uses this a lot---
lately for warm up ---over and over-- i do thumb x4 then pinky x4 then middle times 4 --you could do your problem here--this is just the sounding 4 of the same notes each time -per finger --I figure each finger should have the same amount of control in volume up and down and in staying with the beat--if not I need to change things around a bit--
just saying how this has gone for me--not guaranteed of any value
Old Hickory - Posted - 02/03/2026: 18:22:16
quote:
Originally posted by MattCee
Any advice on how to pick the second string with the third finger beyond just practice?
Develop a picking hand position with the arm pushed a little forward and the hand elevated more over the head so your fingers are hanging down from above. Not a low down position like guitar fingerpicking. This can make it a bit easier to get the middle finger to the second string because you won't so much be lifting it over the first string as you would be if your hand were low and your fingers bent too much in the middle.
But there's no getting away from practice and repetition. I don't think there's anything you can do well on the banjo without doing it a lot.
Laurence Diehl - Posted - 02/03/2026: 22:30:08
This always seems the most compelling argument for a Crowe spacing bridge - if your neck width will accommodate it, that is.
HSmith - Posted - 02/03/2026: 23:52:10
Hi
I well remember encountering this problem many years ago when first learning to play the 'melodic' style. Listening to slowed-down recordings of Bill Keith and Bobby Thompson , I quickly realized that they were using this 'inside roll' technique as there was no other way to play that sequence of notes. It took a lot of tedious, repetitive work to 'train' my middle finger to pick the second string cleanly without catching the first but eventually it became second nature. Years passed, Bela, Scott and Alison displayed new realms of technique and it became obvious to me that I needed to be able to play ANY string with ANY finger (or thumb) to mirror what I heard in their recordings. Many more hours of tedious repetition later I can now do that, and all sorts of possibilities are revealed. Sadly, there's no 'magic bullet' (or at least I've never found it). It just takes a lot of work. Laurence may be right that a wider string spacing could help, but I've always preferred a standard spaced bridge and the more narrow finger board (I have long, thin fingers).
RB-1 - Posted - 02/04/2026: 04:06:27
What Harry said...
It's one of the first things I'd explain to my students:
'In the end you should be ably to pick any string with any finger anytime'.
Meanwhile, work on tone and precise timing...... 
FenderFred - Posted - 02/04/2026: 05:57:06
quote:
Originally posted by MattCee
I'm working my way through Tony Trischka's "The Complete 5-String Banjo Player" and there is an arrangement of John Hardy where you play a series of forward rolls on the 4, 3, 2 strings. The pattern is not difficult, but getting a good, clean strike on the second string with my middle finger is not intuitive.
Any advice on how to pick the second string with the third finger beyond just practice? TIA.
Photo of the forward roll in question.
Great question. This is an 'Inside Roll' commonly used by Alan Munde and Banjo Ben Clark. As a student of both teachers I use it all the time. All I can say is, it takes a lot of practice to hit that second string cleanly. Stick with it you'll get there.
Edited by - FenderFred on 02/04/2026 05:59:10
vthokie7227 - Posted - 02/04/2026: 08:04:45
Repetition is the key to mastery. There’s really no way around it. A great right hand exercise you can is do is to play a forward roll (T I M) on each string in the following order: 1st, 3rd, 2nd, 4th. I suppose you could do this on the 5th string, but if your in a position where you need to use your picking hand’s middle finger on the 5th string, it might be time to question how you got there :-)
MattCee - Posted - 02/04/2026: 09:18:32
All, thanks for the great replies!
I don't really have any regular "exercises" so I'll try incorporating some of these tips into my routine. Beyond that, "keep at it" heard - I'll just keep practicing it.
Thanks!
FenderFred - Posted - 02/04/2026: 10:34:29
quote:
Originally posted by MattCee
All, thanks for the great replies!
I don't really have any regular "exercises" so I'll try incorporating some of these tips into my routine. Beyond that, "keep at it" heard - I'll just keep practicing it.
Thanks!
When I was just starting out as a beginner I was taught six roll patterns from the Pete Wernick banjo book by a local banjo player. He stressed that I needed to learn all six patterns by my next lesson in three weeks. So I buckled down and learned all six. At that next lesson he told me to go away and mix them all up for my next lesson. I am sure you can guess where this story is heading.
Owen - Posted - 02/04/2026: 10:42:18
I think I can guess Fred ... and, fwiw [probably diddly-squat], I commend your restraint (?). 
FenderFred - Posted - 02/05/2026: 01:06:09
quote:
Originally posted by Owen
I think I can guess Fred ... and, fwiw [probably diddly-squat], I commend your restraint (?).
What's your problem Owen. Can't you sleep? Get back in your dog house, nobody here is looking for a bone to squabble over, except you.
Texasbanjo - Posted - 02/05/2026: 04:16:55
Okay, let's be civil and not flame another member!
eagleisland - Posted - 02/05/2026: 05:28:24
I've always found it helpful to practice skills within the context of playing actual music. With that in mind, here's a fun little D to G turnaround lick that involves the inside roll.
Ira Gitlin - Posted - 02/05/2026: 07:27:27
quote:
Originally posted by eagleisland
I've always found it helpful to practice skills within the context of playing actual music. With that in mind, here's a fun little D to G turnaround lick that involves the inside roll.
Ah, the classic Allen Shelton lick!
BTW, you can use that RH pattern to fill up two measures of any chord. It's especially interesting if you have a distinct, different note on each string. For example, try it on a C or F chord, but leave the first string open. For C, that gives you (low to high) E-G-C-D, and for F you get F-A-C-D.
eagleisland - Posted - 02/05/2026: 07:44:24
quote:
Originally posted by Ira Gitlin
Ah, the classic Allen Shelton lick!
Thanks for that! I didn't know where it came from but I use it a fair amount. The great thing about it, IMO, is that it's not only fun to play - it's also really useful in training the right hand to move up and down across the strings.
Ira Gitlin - Posted - 02/05/2026: 08:00:24
Well, I don't know for sure that Shelton was the first to use it, but I do recall hearing it on some of the early-'60s stuff he did with Jim & Jesse.
FenderFred - Posted - 02/05/2026: 08:58:23
quote:
Originally posted by Texasbanjo
Okay, let's be civil and not flame another member!
Excuse me Sherry you should make it clear who you are calling out here. I am responding to Owen's post who called me out by name. You do this all the time.
Originally posted by Owen
I think I can guess Fred ... and, fwiw [probably diddly-squat], I commend your restraint (?).
Edited by - FenderFred on 02/05/2026 08:59:50
FenderFred - Posted - 02/05/2026: 09:03:04
Edited by - FenderFred on 02/05/2026 09:05:11
Laurence Diehl - Posted - 02/05/2026: 09:21:19
quote:
Originally posted by Ira Gitlin
quote:
Originally posted by eagleisland
I've always found it helpful to practice skills within the context of playing actual music. With that in mind, here's a fun little D to G turnaround lick that involves the inside roll.
Ah, the classic Allen Shelton lick!
Also, Eddy Adcock's Turkey Knob. Whoops I guess Chuck got there before me - hard to beat him to the draw.
Merle Travis played a similar riff.
Edited by - Laurence Diehl on 02/05/2026 09:25:43
Tractor1 - Posted - 02/05/2026: 09:56:38
turkey knob I always figured that had a lot of the DNA that Steel Guitar Rag has and I see that one lick as ''much the same'' as the fiddle players "double shuffle''--a very usable right hand pattern by differing left hand formations-
actually I never worked Turkey Knob into my memory--since I had the magic in use elsewhere
Edited by - Tractor1 on 02/05/2026 10:02:44
Tractor1 - Posted - 02/05/2026: 10:29:56
Eddie was advanced -single string and chord licks -- ahead of the crowd--not to mention his telecaster work --and very sociable --
in other words a great person
Texasbanjo - Posted - 02/05/2026: 10:57:26
quote:
Originally posted by FenderFred
quote:
Originally posted by Texasbanjo
Okay, let's be civil and not flame another member!
Excuse me Sherry you should make it clear who you are calling out here. I am responding to Owen's post who called me out by name. You do this all the time.
Originally posted by Owen
I think I can guess Fred ... and, fwiw [probably diddly-squat], I commend your restraint (?).
Fred, if you don't like the way I moderate, take it up with me by PM or complain to Eric.
If you'll follow the rules and regulations about being civil and not flaming, then I won't have to post.
Jack Baker - Posted - 02/05/2026: 13:08:52
Matt,
Here are some basic inside rolls via Allen Shelton....it might help.....Jack
Inside D Rolls
Originally posted by MattCee
I'm working my way through Tony Trischka's "The Complete 5-String Banjo Player" and there is an arrangement of John Hardy where you play a series of forward rolls on the 4, 3, 2 strings. The pattern is not difficult, but getting a good, clean strike on the second string with my middle finger is not intuitive.
Any advice on how to pick the second string with the third finger beyond just practice? TIA.
Photo of the forward roll in question.
Edited by - Jack Baker on 02/05/2026 13:14:27
DRL777 - Posted - 02/05/2026: 17:08:05
Pick Blackberry Blossom it's in the melodic roll off the 7th fret.
RB-1 - Posted - 02/05/2026: 22:37:12
quote:
Originally posted by DRL777
Pick Blackberry Blossom it's in the melodic roll off the 7th fret.
Please explain (for example, tab it)
DRL777 - Posted - 02/06/2026: 06:32:07
Second line. Depending on the tune you could be using TIM but this uses ITM.
littlerockbanjo.com/index_htm_...ossom.pdf
There's a few tunes I can think of that you need to roll on those strings and need to be able to get the 4th string with your index. This is different that the tab you posted, but still just as relevant.
Practice slowly. If you've never done this, you may find (like me originally) that the middle finger needs a little more finesse. However, it may have a mind of it's own if someone cuts you off in traffic. :D
steve davis - Posted - 02/06/2026: 16:17:57
I like using tunes that incorporate what I'm trying to learn.
When you've learned a technique you've also learned another tune(s).
I think Ben Eldridge went there,too.
MattCee - Posted - 02/09/2026: 09:09:00
I've been picking away at this song for the last few days, and wanted to thank y'all for the input by sharing my rendition. It's a long way from perfect - lots of little mistakes, especially towards the end - but the inside roll is coming along a lot better than at first.
Edited by - MattCee on 02/09/2026 09:13:16
chuckv97 - Posted - 02/09/2026: 09:46:50
quote:
Originally posted by MattCee
I've been picking away at this song for the last few days, and wanted to thank y'all for the input by sharing my rendition. It's a long way from perfect - lots of little mistakes, especially towards the end - but the inside roll is coming along a lot better than at first.
Good effort.. but, some friendly advice - I think you're trying to play too fast, your rolls aren't even. I'd set the metronome at a slow speed and work your way up. All the best.
MattCee - Posted - 02/09/2026: 10:12:43
quote:
Originally posted by chuckv97
Good effort.. but, some friendly advice - I think you're trying to play too fast, your rolls aren't even. I'd set the metronome at a slow speed and work your way up. All the best.
Appreciate the feedback, thanks.
Old Hickory - Posted - 02/09/2026: 12:38:37
quote:
Originally posted by DRL777
Pick Blackberry Blossom it's in the melodic roll off the 7th fret.
Not the way I play it!
steve davis - Posted - 02/09/2026: 14:01:58
Allen Shelton spoke of playing melodic fiddletunes in the 50s with Jim and Jesse,but that nobody was interested in listening to them at that point.
chuckv97 - Posted - 02/09/2026: 14:21:42
Steve,, you mean Bobby Thompson
steve davis - Posted - 02/11/2026: 13:15:20
I was thinking of a BNL interview with Allen talking about people not being interested in fiddletunes,chuck.
I am very aware of Bobby with Jim and Jesse as I am also aware of me getting something mixed up.
chuckv97 - Posted - 02/11/2026: 13:37:25
No harm in getting mixed up,,, it’s my MO
Julio B - Posted - 02/12/2026: 15:39:38
Practice it often, but: very slowly and no more than ten minutes; go on to something else and revisit
later. It is the multiple revisitations that will create "muscle memory."
Pete Wernick - Posted - 02/12/2026: 16:13:16
The "middle finger on the 2nd string" move is one of many that players other than Scruggs added to Scruggs style. I'm not aware of Earl ever using it, nor the MIMT sequence that's commonly played by others.
I've used this string sequence pretty often for a forward-backward roll since I first discovered it decades ago:
4 3 2 5 1 2 3 1
I find it not at all difficult, and some things I like about it:
1. Earl didn't do it but it sounds good
2. You get to pick all 5 strings of the banjo in one roll, and hear a full arpeggiation of the chord.
3. When you make interesting chords, the arpeggiation of all the notes can make a pretty cool sound that's not hard to do.
It's nice to know there are many things that Earl never did, that work wonderfully into "Scruggs style". The "book" is still being written!
For those who found it awkward... remember, writing your name and going up stairs were awkward at first. Keep doing it!
