jsinjin - Posted - 04/04/2025:  05:04:01

I learn banjo very slowly and I admit that. It took me more than a. Full year to learn my first song and I’m still playing it very slowly. I sort of memorize every note and finger position one by one through the song because that’s really the only way I can do it.

I’m learning another song and what I’m finding is that I have the stamina to play a couple of measures over and over in practice for long periods of 45 min to an hour. But I can’t play a whole song over and over like that because it becomes mentally exhausting. I’m blown away in the tune of the week and watching others play whole songs or multiple songs lasting multiple minutes without fatigue. I know I have a good memory but the translation from what I remember to each note being played is very taxing and if I try to do 6-8 or more bars of music especially for long practice sessions I get fatigue.

How do you begin to build up that stamina? I keep working to try and get through one more bar but there seems to be a fundamental limit to what I can remember note by note.

Thanks all for any suggestions.

Rusty - Posted - 04/04/2025:  05:52:07

Start learning by ear with an instructor, then use tab as a backup post lesson. Listen to the tune until it is engrained in your memory, you hum it without thinking about it, learn the tune not the notes. I do not read music for banjo or fiddle, I could not tell which note is which on the finger board, nor does one need to know it. If that is important to you, then do that last after you know the tune.

DRL777 - Posted - 04/04/2025:  06:41:22

Tension vs. relaxed playing makes a huge difference in length of time you can play, and how well you play. If you can skip the tab and get to a teacher it'll help immensely. Learn by ear and take it in sections...and relax.

Owen - Posted - 04/04/2025:  06:50:10

John: "It took me more than a. Full year to learn my first song and I’m still playing it very slowly."

Owen: Count your blessings; it could be worse.    

jsinjin - Posted - 04/04/2025:  06:54:29

I do indeed have a teacher. We meet weekly and she and I don’t use tab although I do translate what she does and teaches into sheet music because that’s important to me as a skill. But I don’t use it while playing at all. I do have to memorize every note because I just can’t seem to get music by listening to a song. It doesn’t make sense to me. I try but hearing a song and humming or whistling it isn’t something I’m very good at at all. That’s why I’ve shifted to memorizing it. I try to do it in chunks and there are some repeat things I call names like “ladders” or “thing one” and “thijg 2” that help me memorize but even after a year of practicing and listening to Polly/molly put the kettle (with no tablature) on I doubt I could hum or whistle the entire song. But I did commit to zero tablature for this song 14 months ago. And I can now play it but only note by note from memory. And that’s what is tiring mentally. I did take and slow down my teacher playing the song and translated each fret and timing into actual piano sheet music so that I could learn the length of each note but that’s not what I use to practice or play it. Playing by ear or by hearing someone just gets completely lost in my head. I hear hundreds of notes and I sit don’t translate those to the frets and fingerboard. I’ve done it with Polly put the kettle on but it’s note by note in my head with no context. Like I’m reading one letter at a time instead of understanding how to read. The way a song sounds vs all the notes doesn’t make any sense to me at all which is why it’s taken me a year to get through my first song played at 45-50 bpm. But I can now play it flawlessly like that.

DRL777 - Posted - 04/04/2025:  07:16:25

Sounds like you have good progress, but you don't yet believe you're progressing. I had the same problem. Finally my ear is starting to kick in. I've listened only to good bluegrass, and sometimes I'll be hearing a song I really like (in my head) and realize exactly where those notes must be. It takes a while, and it WILL come to you. I've referred to tab from time to time, but much less that ever before. Speed will come in time, and is not the real goal. I take only a section or two at a time and play it until it's perfect as I can before moving forward into said song. One key is finding some song(s) that you really feel in your gut that you want to learn, and it'll become much easier to you. Everyone wants to learn FMB, but YOU have to find what really hits YOU. Kruger really has some punch in Doin' My Time on the album Travel the Gravel just past the 2 minute mark. His triplets are also amazing as are Ned Luberecki's. Jens playing blew me away, not because it was fast, but because it was powerful and clean, and his melodic and scruggs really speak to me. Things that hit you like that are important. If you're finding you can't quite find the notes, the Banjo Ben Waypoint videos open up the fretboard a ton. I took his one video and translated it into all major bluegrass chords and move around with each one with patterns just for warmup. You'll find your way, just don't give up.

DRL777 - Posted - 04/04/2025:  07:17:13

Oh and when you do start to naturally accelerate ...it will almost become 'fractal' learning.

trapdoor2 - Posted - 04/04/2025:  08:40:11

We all learn differently and we all develop roadblocks without really understanding that they're there.

Stamina is a physical thing. Develop an exercise regimen. It doesn't need to be particularly musical, just a workout for both hands on the banjo. Sequences, licks, noise...(better if it is music).

Rote memory isn't required. Sight reading is a great skill. I'd rather sight read thousands of tunes than memorize one.

Bart Veerman - Posted - 04/04/2025:  10:26:19

Yes, you been at it a while alright John. Keep in mind that the longer you keep insisting music is a math & scientific equation the longer it will take you to catch on.

Music originates in the creative circuit in the brain. Yes, with some help from the other  math part of your brain.

Job 1 when you want to play music: render the melody. Go with the flow, resistance is futile else you will not be "assimilated..."

jsinjin - Posted - 04/04/2025:  10:45:14

I don’t think I have much of a creative circuit in the brain. At least not one that I appreciate very much. But I’ll keep practicing. I’ve just noticed I can only memorize so much. I can play for a long time physically. And I’ve started naming parts of the song different things so they become parts that I play. When I think of songs I know, I think of stars and strips forever or William tell overture or 1812 overture which I’ve heard at the symphony growing up and taking my wife there. I couldn’t sing or whistle the melody but when I hear those I definitely know them especially when I hear the orchestra play. But identify by a song by hearing part of it is not something I’m good at. When I was in grad school and we had these horrible take home cumulative exams that were assigned on Saturday and were due Monday morning by 8am that we were not supposed to work on together but we all did. This one guy named Marc would sing or him different songs while everyone guessed what it was. I never had any idea even though they kept saying the songs were classic. The songs, especially the bluegrass and clawhammer, all just sound like a whole lot of notes played very fast to me. Which is why I work to memorize them.

Dan Gellert - Posted - 04/04/2025:  14:04:26

Have you ever danced?

Can you clap, or tap your foot, in time to a tune?

I'm looking for some way that your brain directly recognizes music. As has been said in another thread, actual amusia is very rare, but...



I've taught quite a few adult beginners who "couldn't carry a tune in a bucket", and can't remember any of them who wasn't able to make some obvious improvement in their perception of pitch and timing. OTOH, I'm real clear up front that to me, learning to listen is by far the most essential part of learning to play. I reckon that anybody that either could not understand that, or just rejected the idea, wouldn't have come back for a second lesson.

Edited by - Dan Gellert on 04/04/2025 14:05:23

jsinjin - Posted - 04/04/2025:  19:31:49

I’ve been to weekly lessons for a long time and I enjoy them. I also pay for and subscribe to two patreons on banjo. And no. I really can’t tap out a tune. I don’t know much about amusia and really don’t worry about it. I am however, progressing well for me. I still don’t “get” music but between me and my teacher I’m learning and playing. Ill never be good but I’ll know a few songs.

Fathand - Posted - 04/05/2025:  07:31:22

Have you tried learning techniques instead of songs?

Find out how a melody (often sung) fits against a chord progression (often strummed) .

Figure out how you can play a chord progression and sing simple songs along to that. Or even just think about the words and melody while changing the chords.

It is easier to memorize 5 or 6 chord changes in a simple song you might recognize than 200 melody notes in a complex fiddle tune you don't.

You might even consider learning to strum a ukulele or guitar while singing so you understand how the melody, harmony and timing of music works.

jsinjin - Posted - 04/05/2025:  12:11:41

Thanks all! Yes, I’ve tried but I can’t even him happy birthday correctly. I’m also not going down the road of ukulele!!!! No more instruments. Never again will I start a new instrument. One is way more than enough. I did compare one person playing Polly / Molly put the kettle on vs me in a recording and mine does sound “computer generated” vs the young woman who was playing. Hers sounded very different and seemed to speed up and slow down but there is no way I could ever play like that or that fast. Mine sounds like a robot with the speed, loudness and counting and if you watch me with lip synching you can see me saying every note. But a year ago I couldn’t play this at all so I’ve come a long way. I feel good with my progress so far.

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 04/05/2025:  16:07:13

I think you have to define progress in your own terms, since not enjoying music is a foreign concept to the rest of us, and leaves us feeling confused. You’re obviously getting something out of it though, so keep at it! (Whatever “it” is).

jsinjin - Posted - 04/05/2025:  20:38:42

I posted a video. I kinda messed up a. Few times. Usually if I go through it 25-30 times in a row I have it down so that I make no mistakes on one or two play throughs. It’s very hard to play without mistakes through the whole song. And it for me is trying to learn to play a few songs and understand music theory.

When I hear other people play the music just sounds like a random static of millions of notes. To learn every one sounds like something so impossible without an equation or some way to simplify it and I haven’t figured that out yet for my brain. Believe me I’m very impressed by people who just seem to hear things and can just mimic them. I did take everyone’s advice and I don’t use tab. I haven’t used any tab at all for this song. But I do have to memorize it or I won’t have any idea what notes come next or what to play. It’s just hard.