Neil Allen - Posted - 04/19/2020:  14:27:48

Just curious about how many of you 2-finger thumb lead players keep the third pick on (if you play with picks) so that you can easily break into rolling backup where appropriate before reverting back to 2FTL for solos.

I find the structure of 2FTL much preferable for soloing (and I'm a hopeless Scruggs player if the truth be told) but I do like Scruggs-style rolling backup behind other instruments.

It's just that this seems to work really well...

banjo bill-e - Posted - 04/19/2020:  18:10:06

That should be easy for you, Neil, if 3-finger is the default and you just work out the solos two finger style. But if you start with two finger then it's a no go, as I would bet that most two finger players have not mastered the 3-finger rolls.
For me, I started two finger with the third finger planted on the head and that is a hard habit to break. I do work in a third finger now and then on some tunes, but I have to be set up for it and thinking about it in advance. I can't just pull that out of my pocket at any time like you can.

Mooooo - Posted - 04/19/2020:  18:28:59

I am not an experienced 2 finger picker at all, I just started with Matt Brown's 2-Finger picking site last week, but as you, I also play scruggs style. I decided to leave all the picks on while I learn 2 finger style just so I can switch between the styles easily from the get-go. I also have a clawjammer fingerpick on my index in case I want to throw in a little clawhammer as well. As an added bonus, I am finding that the practice in 2-finger of planting 3 fingers has helped me to plant my ring finger while playing scruggs style (i'm usually only a pinkie planter). I also pick without the fingerpicks on and am having no problems either way. Good luck to you.

p.s. I don't think the guys who play 2-finger style play solos. They usually play in unison with a screeching fiddle...but I could be wrong.

Edited by - Mooooo on 04/19/2020 18:40:59

brownsdream - Posted - 04/19/2020:  22:28:12

I really like switching between 2F melody and 3F rolling chords with some bass runs, particularly when playing with any of my favorite fiddlers. I am more comfortable playing without picks, and I prefer the sound of my banjo played barehanded, so switching is possible and doesn't require much besides maybe a beat to slightly change my hand shape so my middle finger leaves the banjo head.

Neil Allen - Posted - 04/19/2020:  23:51:42

Ok, thanks for your input, everyone. Yes, I agree the finger planting issue is relevant. I need to keep pinky and ring fingers planted for 2FTL but the middle can perfectly well step in if required. I really like 2FTL as a versatile and standalone style with it's own inherent rhythm but, given that it is possible to fake a pretty acceptable Scruggs style backup with nothing more than a forward roll and some two-finger partial chords, I really don't want to lose this aspect of my playing. While I can simulate this using TTI in 2FTL, it is a lot harder than TIM.

Told you I wasn't a very good Scruggs player! 

zac987 - Posted - 04/19/2020:  23:57:24

Nick Hornbuckle plays with only 2-fingers, but has a very fluid style that sounds very much like 3-finger. He plays both old-time and bluegrass. I recommend listening to his stuff!

Old-time fingerpicking is great in part because there really is no dogma -- if it sounds good to you, do it!

Neil Allen - Posted - 04/20/2020:  00:23:53

Yes, Nick is an outstanding player but I understand from him that he developed that style due to a physical constraint that restricted the use of his middle finger. It's much harder work than 3-finger style and requires an extremely busy and accurate thumb.

This is not a criticism. Nick is one of the players who I most admire.

Ron Nelson - Posted - 04/20/2020:  05:28:25

What a great question/thread. I too am a Scruggs style wannabe but 2FTL comes fairly easy. I often play back up with 3 finger rolls (picks included) and too have wondered if others do this. Also what do most 2FTL players do for back up? I found myself too many times playing the melody and don’t want to intrude on another player/instrument’s lead.

brownsdream - Posted - 04/20/2020:  06:55:25

My experience is that it's much easier to play backup with 3 fingers (mostly because a chord has 3 or more notes), though there are brilliant banjo players like Kirk Sutphin who can play fantastic backup with just 2 fingers. I sat with Kirk once and asked him show me that, and it was incredible. He's a master.

Neil Allen - Posted - 04/20/2020:  07:01:46

I'd definitely concur with that and would also add that it's much simpler because you really only need two finger chords because, in its most basic form, you can get away with only fretting the first string and one inner string and leaving the fifth string open. With a square roll (as 2FTL backup would normally produce) you would often need to hold a full chord. Also you don't get any syncopation against the backing beat with a square roll like you do with a three-note forward roll.

ipik5 - Posted - 04/20/2020:  08:37:22

Very good thread! So do you mainly use a square roll if you are playing back up or just playing fingerstyle to an old time clawhammer banjo player and fiddler or do you use a 2 finger or 3 finger bum ditty type rythm? Is there any videos out there that may illustrate this? Trying to understand what 2 finger and 3 finger roll or rolls will blend and back old time clawhammer and fiddle music.

Neil Allen - Posted - 04/20/2020:  09:00:54

I think you might need to be prudent and tasteful about doing a forward roll in an old-time jam as it might not fit the scene too well. The thing about 2FTL is that it can fit in pretty well with some bluegrass jams and it's certainly a lot easier to come up with solos.

I'd appreciate some other perspectives here, if any one would like to add theirs.

Neil Allen - Posted - 04/20/2020:  09:29:28

The other thing about old-time jams is that, at most of the ones I've been to, all the instruments play at once and basically do the melody, whereas in bluegrass it alternates between lead soloists and backup while someone else is soloing.

So in 2FTL in old time jams, the question of backup might never even arise. But it certainly would arise if you wanted to use it in a bluegrass jam or even to back a guitarist or singer in a general folk-song type jam.

Emiel - Posted - 04/20/2020:  09:36:09

I'm no Scruggs-player, but I started playing three-finger picking out to two-finger picking. Mixing in a third finger when it comes in handy. Now, I seldom play exclusively two-finger, most often a third finger comes in.

brownsdream - Posted - 04/20/2020:  09:40:20

In the old-time jams I've attended as well as the ones I now lead, there is often more than one banjo players present, and it's such a welcome gesture when one of them decides to roll some chords or play some sort of complimentary chordal backup so there's not so much melodic redundancy on the same instrument. And I've always loved that vibe. Have you folks all heard the Tommy Jarrell recordings where he's on fiddle accompanied by Fred Cockerham (clawhammer) and Oscar Jenkins (fingerpicking)? "Let Me Fall" on Down to the Cider Mill is a great example of tasteful collaboration between two banjoists supporting a fiddler. Or all of John Walker & Raymond Perry's old-time fiddle & 3-finger banjo duets? Like their Cumberland Gap...So good!

Edited by - brownsdream on 04/20/2020 09:41:50

Good Buddy - Posted - 04/20/2020:  10:13:38

Is it o.k. if I call it "Two-finger style" or more simply "Two-Finger" instead of Two Finger Thumb Lead, it sounds clumsy and too long and most people won't care if I'm playing index or thumb lead? I'm probably going to learn both styles anyway, and I can't imagine limiting myself to one or the other while I'm playing.

brownsdream - Posted - 04/20/2020:  10:17:45

yes.

Neil Allen - Posted - 04/20/2020:  11:39:16

quote:

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Originally posted by Good Buddy

Is it o.k. if I call it "Two-finger style" or more simply "Two-Finger" instead of Two Finger Thumb Lead, it sounds clumsy and too long and most people won't care if I'm playing index or thumb lead? I'm probably going to learn both styles anyway, and I can't imagine limiting myself to one or the other while I'm playing.

---

The only thing is, they are quite different styles. Index lead, or mixed index/thumb is more like clawhammer in rhythm. In thumb lead, in the pure style, the only thing you are doing with your index is droning on the first string, so it's a bit like in Scruggs where most players (in my limited experience) generally get the melody notes on some string other than the first, which usually forms part of a roll. In pure thumb lead, the "rolls" consist of droning on the first and fifth as filler between melody notes. There's a bunch of material in the archives about this. Check out BHO member Chip Arnold on YouTube for everything you could want to know about index lead. For thumb lead, you could check out the newly-created instructional site from Matt Brown.

Good Buddy - Posted - 04/20/2020:  11:51:06

quote:

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Originally posted by Neil Allen

quote:

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Originally posted by Good Buddy

Is it o.k. if I call it "Two-finger style" or more simply "Two-Finger" instead of Two Finger Thumb Lead, it sounds clumsy and too long and most people won't care if I'm playing index or thumb lead? I'm probably going to learn both styles anyway, and I can't imagine limiting myself to one or the other while I'm playing.

---

The only thing is, they are quite different styles. Index lead, or mixed index/thumb is more like clawhammer in rhythm. In thumb lead, in the pure style, the only thing you are doing with your index is droning on the first string, so it's a bit like in Scruggs where most players (in my limited experience) generally get the melody notes on some string other than the first, which usually forms part of a roll. In pure thumb lead, the "rolls" consist of droning on the first and fifth as filler between melody notes. There's a bunch of material in the archives about this. Check out BHO member Chip Arnold on YouTube for everything you could want to know about index lead. For thumb lead, you could check out the newly-created instructional site from Matt Brown.

---

I feel that most people won't care and that saying "Two-Finger" is sufficient. I understand the difference between the techniques, and if someone is interested, I can explain it. But, much like the multitude of Overhand styles, I could care less if someone plays roundpeak or some other style. Same with Scruggs Style vs Stanley Style, there is a slight difference, but I don't need to differentiate. It all seems a bit anal. I think Matt gave the best advice when he said "Yes"

Neil Allen - Posted - 04/20/2020:  12:17:47

quote:

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Originally posted by Good Buddy

quote:

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Originally posted by Neil Allen

quote:

---

Originally posted by Good Buddy

Is it o.k. if I call it "Two-finger style" or more simply "Two-Finger" instead of Two Finger Thumb Lead, it sounds clumsy and too long and most people won't care if I'm playing index or thumb lead? I'm probably going to learn both styles anyway, and I can't imagine limiting myself to one or the other while I'm playing.

---

The only thing is, they are quite different styles. Index lead, or mixed index/thumb is more like clawhammer in rhythm. In thumb lead, in the pure style, the only thing you are doing with your index is droning on the first string, so it's a bit like in Scruggs where most players (in my limited experience) generally get the melody notes on some string other than the first, which usually forms part of a roll. In pure thumb lead, the "rolls" consist of droning on the first and fifth as filler between melody notes. There's a bunch of material in the archives about this. Check out BHO member Chip Arnold on YouTube for everything you could want to know about index lead. For thumb lead, you could check out the newly-created instructional site from Matt Brown.

---

I feel that most people won't care and that saying "Two-Finger" is sufficient. I understand the difference between the techniques, and if someone is interested, I can explain it. But, much like the multitude of Overhand styles, I could care less if someone plays roundpeak or some other style. Same with Scruggs Style vs Stanley Style, there is a slight difference, but I don't need to differentiate. It all seems a bit anal. I think Matt gave the best advice when he said "Yes"

---

Fine, but if you don't care, why ask the question?

Neil Allen - Posted - 04/23/2020:  05:52:49

In fact, an easy way of doing Scruggs style backup in 2FTL would be to use the Foggy Mountain roll instead of the forward roll because it still only needs a maximum of 2 notes fretted, it naturally resets onto the beat and the thumb movement is kept a lot shorter than when doing a forward roll in 2FTL, so it's easier and quicker if you don't want to bring in a third finger.

Edited by - Neil Allen on 04/23/2020 05:57:34

Foggy mountain roll