mike gregory - Posted - 04/01/2020:  14:35:43

Client wants a custom-made cookie tin banjo, with 4 strings, BUT with the neck at almost a 90 degree angle, like a lute.



So I looked at my Egyptian Oud, to see how THAT guy did it.



TEN strings.



In anybody's opinion, would good old Titebond be tough enough to hold against 4 steel strings, with THAT as the surface area?

Edited by - mike gregory on 04/03/2020 13:51:12

Oud peghead joint

 

rcc56 - Posted - 04/01/2020:  14:45:09

Go for as accurate a joint as you can muster and cross your fingers.

If you have doubts, you could always pin it.

Or choose another plan of attack and use a scarf joint.

Edited by - rcc56 on 04/01/2020 14:46:27

rcc56 - Posted - 04/01/2020:  15:04:18

Or a mortise and tenon.
Which is stronger? I don't know.
M & T might be easier to cut and fit than a scarf.

mike gregory - Posted - 04/01/2020:  15:30:35

I've got a mortise & tenon glued up from scrap lumber.
Will let it dry overnight, then stress it 'til it pops.
Anybody know how much PULL there is, on 4 steel strings, D G B E, baritone uke?

Profchris - Posted - 04/02/2020:  01:44:16

quote:

---

Originally posted by mike gregory

I've got a mortise & tenon glued up from scrap lumber.

Will let it dry overnight, then stress it 'til it pops.

Anybody know how much PULL there is, on 4 steel strings, D G B E, baritone uke?

---

From memory, around 60lb for nylon baritone strings. A soprano uke is 35lb or so. Steel will be  higher but not that much - look up tenor guitar. I found one online source suggesting around 90lb.

If you think about the forces on that peghead, most of the force is pulling it into the joint, and there is much less trying to rotate it. I think pretty much any wood glue would hold it. The downside is it's endgrain to side grain, so it will be weak against knocks. OTOH, if it does take a knock the peghead will just pop off and can be re-glued. For that reason I'd use hide glue or fish glue, because repair will be much easier.

Edited by - Profchris on 04/02/2020 01:47:22

John Gribble - Posted - 04/02/2020:  02:12:37

quote:

---

Originally posted by mike gregory

I've got a mortise & tenon glued up from scrap lumber.

Will let it dry overnight, then stress it 'til it pops.

Anybody know how much PULL there is, on 4 steel strings, D G B E, baritone uke?

---

Doesn't D'addareo (sp) have a chart or something on their website which gives string tension based on gauge and scale lenth?

mbanza - Posted - 04/02/2020:  06:48:07

This utility is handy for estimating string tensions: chordgen.rattree.co.uk/tensiontool.php

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 04/02/2020:  07:01:09

This particular oud joint is not just simply two pieces glued together. The peghead actually is fitted into a notch in the neck proper, and although it's not a deep notch, it does add some strength and support against rotational pull.



I would still think that something similar to a mortise and tenon or a finger joint would be stronger because the glue surfaces won't involve so much end grain.

Edited by - G Edward Porgie on 04/02/2020 07:02:37

mike gregory - Posted - 04/02/2020:  07:20:20

I guess what I did  isn't a mortise and tenon. Seems it's called a finger joint.

Here's  a pic off the internet.........

Whatever it's called, here's mine.

I rounded the corner a bit, just to see how the finished peghead might look.

90 degree lute peghead test

 

Profchris - Posted - 04/02/2020:  08:18:54

It's a strong joint, but if the instrument takes a tumble and it breaks the repair is likely to be very difficult.

Hard choices ...

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 04/02/2020:  11:15:55

quote:

---

Originally posted by Profchris

It's a strong joint, but if the instrument takes a tumble and it breaks the repair is likely to be very difficult.



Hard choices ...

---

Probably no more difficult than any other broken headstock.

mike gregory - Posted - 04/02/2020:  11:56:11

quote:

---

Originally posted by Profchris

It's a strong joint, but if the instrument takes a tumble and it breaks the repair is likely to be very difficult.



Hard choices ...

---

It's going on to a large, fancy COOKIE TIN.

Not likely to become a Family Heirloom. 

If it breaks, I'll just cobble up another neck.

Pictures will be posted, as the project progresses.

mike gregory - Posted - 04/03/2020:  13:56:08

Progress has begun.

Not counting the one I made from scrap lumber, this is the FIRST TIME that I ever made  this joint, whatever it's called.

Tin Lute Body

Tin Lute Neck Joint

Tin Lute-Shaped Peghead

 

mike gregory - Posted - 04/05/2020:  10:28:22

Onward, ever onward!

Drilled the holes for the tuners first, THEN glued up the  peghead/neck joint. Figured it would be MUCH easier to get 'em straight.

Cut a dowel stick, with a long section removed so the head will have room to vibrate.

Glued on a used fingerboard, so at least the frets will be accurate.

At this point, most of the hard stuff is done.

After the glue dries, some sanding, some TRU OIL, some glue and some strings, and then you'll get a sound file.  (It may sound a bit tinny, but, c'mon... it IS a tin!!)

Tin Lute Dowel Stick

Tin Lute FIngerboard Clamp

Tin lute, peghead angle

 

BNJOMAKR - Posted - 04/05/2020:  10:45:15

 (It may sound a bit tinny, but, c'mon... it IS a tin!!) 

Mike... Don't you just love building something that you haven't built before?

mike gregory - Posted - 04/05/2020:  10:49:26

Yes, I do love it.
I've cobbled together close to a thousand cookie-tin banjos since 1993, but never one like this.

PS: Nice that we can still be friends, although we occupy wildly opposite ends of the Careful Craftsmanship scale!

mike gregory - Posted - 04/05/2020:  16:48:36

Made a HUGE mistake in cutting the hole for the dowel stick to come through and support the tailpiece.
So, I made a big tailpiece to mask the error.
And when I captioned the photo, I spelled OOPSIE! wrong.

Also took one of my previous dog's well-gnawed beef bone, and started making a bone top nut

Tin Lute -tailpiece

Tin lute- messed up dowel hole

BrooksMT - Posted - 04/05/2020:  17:00:22

If it would not spoil the aesthetics or balance, a steel L screwed to the joint would help protect it against knocks. You could even file the steel, or ball peen hammer the surface, to make it a bit decorative.

awildman - Posted - 04/05/2020:  19:46:26

If you can locate a large piece of wood, would it be stronger with a single piece neck/headstock?

mike gregory - Posted - 04/05/2020:  22:43:36

Reasonable suggestion.

Too late for a new neck. Photos posted.

Can't imagine finding an already harvested and seasoned hardwood branch with  that ELBOW shape, like any of the ones in this picture:

And bandsawing it out of a maple board would mean wasting most of a 3x8x20 board.

Mom & Dad were scraping along, feeding 11 kids. Wasting stuff is just too too contrary to how we were raised.

Good old Titebond has held a lot of neck joints- for me- over the years.

But, thanks for the suggestion.

BY the way!

We DO agree on finding the right piece of branch, if possible.

Age 13, first instrument I ever made, was inspired by finding a  straight piece of branch that had been sawed the long way, and well seasoned. Looked like it WANTED to be an instrument neck.

Didn't know a THING about how to, so I just cut one end to an angle, screwed a piece of plywood to it, made a 3-stringed baritone uke.

WesB - Posted - 04/06/2020:  09:49:00

Mike, if that joint doesn't work out, is there any chance you could reinforce the neck with a bent steel rod? A little tricky to do, but I think you could drill the two pieces of neck and then shape them as needed to be joined.

mike gregory - Posted - 04/06/2020:  12:03:55

It's possible, Wes.

Changing the subject, temporarily:

If you ever get tired of living where there's NEVER a plowed wall of snow blocking the end of your driveway, why not move to Wisconsin, and run for MAYOR of the city just a few miles from here?

They sorta named it after you, so, "VOTE for a REAL Wes Bender" would make a good campaign slogan.............

Uke-alot - Posted - 04/06/2020:  12:28:55

quote:

---

Originally posted by mike gregory

Progress has begun.

Not counting the one I made from scrap lumber, this is the FIRST TIME that I ever made  this joint, whatever it's called.

---

My gut feeling is that the finger joint neck is going to be completely fine.  If you ever do another one and want to build it like a tank, you could go with through dovetails, or even a through mortise and tenon (maybe two mortises and two tenons.  The dovetails could be cut with a jig, but the mortises require hand cutting and need to be pretty tight.

mike gregory - Posted - 04/06/2020:  12:32:13

Got the dang thing put together.
But, seems the music store is closed as NOT ESSENTIAL.

Or, maybe the nice young married who run it, are keeping their very VERY nice kids out of harm's way.

So, I strung it up with banjo strings, 'cuz the client WANTS steel strings.

Going to let it sit a day or 2, then tune it to pitch.

Latest photos attached

Tin lute-HEEL

Tin Lute- Back view

Tin Lute-Finished

Tin Lute- Bridge & Tailpiece

Tin Lute- BONE nut

 

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 04/06/2020:  14:12:10

Looks good, Mike.

If you ever build another, I think it would be wise to mount the fingerboard closer to the bend so that the strings don't drag across the wood where the peghead meets the neck proper.

mike gregory - Posted - 04/06/2020:  16:19:02

Right you are, Mr. Porgie.



If it is true that we learn by our mistakes, I ought to be a [EXPLETIVE DELETED] GENIUS by now!

My original plan was to sand the joint down some more.

WesB - Posted - 04/07/2020:  14:47:05

quote:

---

Originally posted by mike gregory

It's possible, Wes.

Changing the subject, temporarily:

If you ever get tired of living where there's NEVER a plowed wall of snow blocking the end of your driveway, why not move to Wisconsin, and run for MAYOR of the city just a few miles from here?

They sorta named it after you, so, "VOTE for a REAL Wes Bender" would make a good campaign slogan.............

---

It's funny, but a number of people, when they hear my name, think it is West.  I appreciate the suggestion, Mike, but politics is one thing that I would never consider entering.  Now, we better get back to the regular programming before this thread is locked for becoming political.......

mike gregory - Posted - 04/07/2020:  15:04:59

This MIGHT get it moved to the [FF] FOOD FORUM.

****************************

But,  BACK on the subject of the LUTE:

THe string tension on the tailpiece is deforming the end of the tin.

 Got to install reinforcing blocks, on the side of the dowel stick, I guess.

mike gregory - Posted - 04/08/2020:  12:13:48

Action WAAAYYYY too high, so I took off the nut, sawed the slots to BELOW the fingerboard.
Then pulled a fret from the discarded end of the used fingerboard, trimmed it, mixed up epoxy putty, and pushed the fret into the putty to make a ZERO fret

Quick, cheap, and lazy.

Might have a sound file by tomorrow evening.

Zero Fret for tin lute