mziegler - Posted - 03/12/2018:  19:04:33

Trying to get a more thorough understanding of music theory. Been reading quite a bit but have not found any discussions of the equivalency of scales. Eg G minor pentatonic = B flat major pentatonic=..?. Either apps, books or websites would do. Trying to make sense of this equivalency and find out if there is a simple way of seeing the relationships. Thanks

rcc56 - Posted - 03/12/2018:  20:30:33

I prefer to use the term "enharmonic" rather than "equivalent."  To me, the term "equivalent" implies that the scales function in the same manner, while "enharmonic" simply means that they contain the same notes.

An example of how enharmonics can function differently are the C major 6 and the A minor 7 chords.  Both contain the same notes, but they function differently because each uses a different note for the fundamental root.  [C E G A vs. A C E G]

As far as a short list of enharmonic scales [all containing the same notes but utilizing different fundamentals]:

A natural minor [also known as the Aeolian mode], B Locrian, C Major [also known as the Ionian mode], D Dorian mode, E Phrygian mode, F Lydian mode, G mixolydian mode.  All of these scales share the notes A B C D E F G A.

Also, C Major pentatonic and A minor pentatonic.  These share the notes A C D E G A, although it could be argued that there are several scales that could all be called C Major pentatonic.

Also, there are only two sets of notes for all 12 of the whole tone scales-- C,D,E,F#,G#,A#; and Db,Eb,F,G,A,B.  The spelling will vary according to which note is being used as the tonic.

Also, although these are just a matter of spelling:  F# Major and Gb Major, C# Major and Db Major, B Major and Cb Major;  A# minor and Bb minor, D# minor and Eb minor, G# minor and Ab minor.  Thanks for spurring me to look up the minors, I had forgotten some of them.

Some enharmonic chords:  C Major 6 and A minor 7; C minor 6 and A half diminished 7 [minor7b5]; C augmented, E augmented, and G# augmented; C [fully] diminished 7, Eb diminished 7, Gb diminished 7, A diminished 7; C7b5 and F#7b5.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head.  I'm sure I've missed a few.

This is what a master's degree in music can do for you.  Is it useful?  In certain situations, yes.  Jazz rhythm guitar is an example.  Or jazz banjo!!

Edited by - rcc56 on 03/12/2018 20:37:47

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 03/12/2018:  20:38:58

I would advise to just learn them straight in order to keep their functions correct.

Edited by - mmuussiiccaall on 03/12/2018 20:44:32

Scales

 

rcc56 - Posted - 03/12/2018:  20:57:53

I prefer to look at scales in terms of function, such as whether they are implicitly major, minor, or exotic.

Majors: "The" major scale [Ionian mode], Lydian mode, Mixolydian mode, Major pentatonic.

Minors:  Natural minor [Aeolian mode], Harmonic minor, Melodic minor, Dorian mode, Phrygian mode, Locrian mode [could be considered an exotic], minor pentatonic, Hungarian minor.

Exotics:  Whole tone, Diminished, [Locrian mode].

If we define a scale as a group of 5 to 12 notes arranged in ascending order, than we have a huge number of scales for which we don't have names that are universally agreed upon.  Make up your own!!

gtani7 - Posted - 03/12/2018:  21:51:43

I can recommend some books, some are for guitar with tab:

- Serna, Guitar Theory

- Kolb, Music Theory for Guitar

and some are general so written in treble clef or piano grand staff

- Keith Wyatt/C Schroeder, Music Theory

- Edly's theory for Practical People (my favorite, but piano oriented)

- The Theory for Idiots and Dummies books are good and often found in public libraries

bluenote23 - Posted - 03/13/2018:  07:38:08

Confused?



With all this talk of modes, if you are just starting to learn a little theory, then it could be confusing.



Here is an easier explanation. Major scales have a relative minor. Count down 3 semitones from the major (don't include the first note) to find the relative minor. If you are in C major, the relative minor is A minor.



So what is the relative minor to B flat major? Right, so that's step one.



A pentatonic scale is a five note scale (instead of the normal, for western music, 7 notes). To form a major pentatonic scale, we make a circle of fifths, that is each succeeding note is 7 semitones higher (a perfect 5th) higher than the next. So in C major, that would be G, D, A and E.



Now put these notes in a scale and you have C, D, E, G, A which is your 5 note C major pentatonic scale. Refer to Dick's (mmuussiiccaall) pdf to everify this.



Because A minor is the relative minor to C major, the A minor pentatonic scale will contain the same 5 notes as the C mafor pentatonic scale. Why this should be so is a more complicated question but both scales have the same key signature so there is a logic behind all this.



Because G minor is the relative minor to B flat major, then the two pentatonic scales will be identical.

Fathand - Posted - 03/13/2018:  09:34:23

At one time I downloaded this book for free. I think form a website Obooko . I got through a chapter or two but it was pretty heavy reading. I could email it if you cannot find it on line.

Rich Cochrane

Arpeggio and Scale Resources

A Guitar Encyclopedia

bluenote23 - Posted - 03/13/2018:  09:45:49

Just a little correction to my post.

First I got Rick's (not Dick's) name wrong.

In my last sentence I said the two scales are the identical. Rather, the two scales contain the same notes but are not exactly the same as they start on different notes and that gives each one a different tonal colour (this is a first step in understanding modes).

Edited by - bluenote23 on 03/13/2018 09:46:32

mziegler - Posted - 03/13/2018:  10:11:57

Thanks for the answers, folks. After posting, I thought I should look at the Circle of Fifth's just because. And Bluenote23 the relationship popped out at me, thanks for that hint. Always find I'm better at understanding than memorization, so the Cof5 at least gives me something to hang my hat (brain) on. But rcc56 I know that sometimes memorization is necessary and your musical education has served you well. I am continually amazed at the depth of music when one goes below the tunes. Just trying to keep the old brain fresh and trust that more knowledge will lead to more playing options.

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 03/13/2018:  15:07:56

quote:

---

Originally posted by rcc56

I prefer to look at scales in terms of function, such as whether they are implicitly major, minor, or exotic.

Majors: "The" major scale [Ionian mode], Lydian mode, Mixolydian mode, Major pentatonic.

Minors:  Natural minor [Aeolian mode], Harmonic minor, Melodic minor, Dorian mode, Phrygian mode, Locrian mode [could be considered an exotic], minor pentatonic, Hungarian minor.

Exotics:  Whole tone, Diminished, [Locrian mode].

If we define a scale as a group of 5 to 12 notes arranged in ascending order, than we have a huge number of scales for which we don't have names that are universally agreed upon.  Make up your own!!

---

Bob, here is an interesting (and fairly comprehensive) approach to classifying scales:

ianring.com/musictheory/scales/

banjoak - Posted - 03/13/2018:  19:20:46

quote:

---

Originally posted by mziegler

Trying to get a more thorough understanding of music theory. Been reading quite a bit but have not found any discussions of the equivalency of scales. Eg G minor pentatonic = B flat major pentatonic=..?. Either apps, books or websites would do. Trying to make sense of this equivalency and find out if there is a simple way of seeing the relationships. Thanks

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The G minor = Bb major is the common "relative minor" (shares the same notes). The simply way is the the relative minor is 3 half steps (3 frets) lower than the major.

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 03/13/2018:  19:58:10

And the G minor :: G major is the common “parallel minor”—shares the same tonic (G) but different key signatures (two flats versus one sharp).

rcc56 - Posted - 03/13/2018:  20:05:21

Here's a little more on one fairly practical approach to classifying scales:

If the scale contains the fundamental, its perfect 5th, and a major 3rd, [i.e. C-E-G], its tonic chord will be major, so I classify the scale as major.

If the scale contains the fundamental, its perfect 5th, and a minor 3rd, [i.e. C-Eb-G], its tonic chord will be minor, so I classify the scale as minor.

If the scale contains no major or minor tonic chord, or both a major and minor tonic chord, I classify the scale as exotic or ambiguous.

When I teach the common scales and modes, I teach C major [C to C on the white keys] as my reference for major modes, and then describe how we can modify it to yield the Lydian mode [raise the 4th scale note 1/2 a step], or the Mixolydian [lower the 7th note half a step].  I use A natural minor [A to A, white keys] as my reference for the minor modes.  If we raise the 7th note half a step, we get the harmonic minor, if we raise the 6th note half a step, we get the Dorian mode; etc.

Remember, scales are only building blocks, and music is an art.  Theory can help us understand music, but music that lives on theory alone is only an exercise.  Theory can tell us a lot about what we might do, but it does not tell us what we must do.

Claude Debussy, the great French impressionist composer, was thrown out of the Paris Conservatory because he wouldn't write they way they wanted him to.  I have heard that on the premier of Beethoven's 1st Symphony, some critics and academics took him to task because they felt that the introduction to the first movement floated around too long and visited too many tonal centers.  Five years later, the same critics and academics were kissing his feet.

Edited by - rcc56 on 03/13/2018 20:14:06

Lew H - Posted - 03/14/2018:  12:40:17

I'll have a gin and tonic chord, please! (Sorry! My bad!)

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 03/14/2018:  14:13:26

quote:

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Originally posted by Lew H

I'll have a gin and tonic chord, please! (Sorry! My bad!)

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My local sandwich shop adds red onions to make a sub dominant . . .

banjoak - Posted - 03/14/2018:  19:57:39

Edited by - banjoak on 03/14/2018 20:09:43

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 03/14/2018:  21:04:02

quote:

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Originally posted by banjoak

quote:

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Originally posted by Lew H

I'll have a gin and tonic chord, please! (Sorry! My bad!)

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Best keep away from minors then, you wouldn't want them to get half-diminished!

And best take care when going around from fifth to fifth you might forget the tonic an become fully diminished

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I prefer my fifths inverted.