Ken LeVan - Posted - 04/13/2015:  14:58:31

Pete Seeger has passed, God rest his soul.  I would like to create a definitive timeline that follows the evolution of the longneck banjo.

What I know, or believe so far, so I welcome every and all corrections, as I am trying to learn - I am trying to make a timeline:

(1) In the 1940s, John D'Angelico in NYC converted an Orpheum pot to a "2+" longneck for Pete Seeger.

Watch this 1947 video:youtube.com/watch?v=Hr9FP93o8Ro

(2) Pete may have also had a Whyte Laydie pot with a "3+" neck at some point.

(3) Peggy had a tubaphone pot with an abalone rim cap made into a "block-and-dot" longneck by Vega - same as Bob Gibson"

(4) Pete made a lignum vitae "3+" neck for a tubphone pot, which became his "player"

(5) Vega made a deal with Pete, to market the Tubaphone with a "3+" neck as the "Pete Seeger" banjo, which they did as the "PS-5", and this became the banjo of the "folk era" -Kingston Trio, Hedy West, Tommy Makem,etc.

(6) Vega made a model called the "Excel", which had the 5th string at the 9th fret as opposed to the 8th, and this was played by Alex Hassliev.

I would love to get the whole chronology down pat. while there are still people out there who remember and know.

Joe Connor - Posted - 04/13/2015:  15:14:06

Very cool thread, Ken.

Here, in Seeger's own words, is the story of his association with Vega and the fact that he did not receive a PS-5 until after he had allowed Vega to name the PS-5 after him:

Well, it was like this. It was payola. About four or five years ago the Vega banjo company of Boston called me to say they'd received several requests to make banjos with especially long necks (an idea I got in 1942 when trying to play "Viva La Qunice Brigada" in the C minor position [i.e. first position, C tuning], which was a bit too high to sing).

Vega asked, "Could we officially call it 'the Pete Seeger Model'?"

"It would be an honor," says I.

"Would you like us to pay a royalty on each one sold?"

"No, I'd rather not get involved. (After all, how many such requests could there be, at $295. a piece?)

However, in 1959 Vega called again. "We thought you'd be interested to know that we've sold over three hundred of the Pete Seeger models."

"Holy mackerel. I did some rapid arithmetic and began to wonder if I shouldn't have asked for a royalty.

"By the way, which model of out banjos do you yourself play?" asked Vega.

"Oh, I have an old Tubaphone with a homemade neck."

"Good heavens, that will never do. Could we present you with a Pete Seeger model?"

"I'd be delighted."

lazyka.com/linernotes/OddsAndE...eeger.htm

P.S. Sorry about the shaded block quote. I have no idea how to remove the shading.

rudy - Posted - 04/13/2015:  15:30:05

Very nice, Ken.  You might want to consider that "long necks" pre-dated D'Angelico by a LONG time if you consider the Minstrel banjos.  Many were made with very long speaking lengths and were low tuned, which was exactly what was resurrected by later makers like D'Angelico .  It would be nice if we could think of the long neck as a more modern development, but the plain truth is the fretted steel string long neck was really a return to a begone past where the lower tunings were in vogue.

As I've stated in the past, there is very little that is truly "modern or new" when it comes to banjo innovation, including anything that I've done.  It's all re-cycled from a previous incarnation in one form or another.

Ken LeVan - Posted - 04/13/2015:  15:36:36

Thanks, Joe!

Do you know anything about those early models in the 40's?  When you look at that 1947 video, you can see that the banjo he is playing is  a 2+, which would be associated with John D'Angelico. Someone else has noted that the banjo he is playing has 28 hooks, which would be a WL or Tubaphone. I don't know how many hooks Orpheums had.

I know all about the "Viva La Qunice Brigada" thing, and how he wanted a 3+ to play that, but there was a time lag between his "need" for a longer neck, and the actual production of one, plus who made it(?)

Then there is the timeline when Vega stopped using 1/8" bracket bands, and started using bolt-through shoes and a thinner "trim strip" that looked like a bracket band, and switched from dowels.  This all happened around 1957-1960, but I am not sure.

Joe Connor - Posted - 04/13/2015:  16:13:50

I wish I could answer those questions, Ken. Here are some Weavers' videos from 1951, which give some good shots of the banjo Pete was playing then.

youtube.com/watch?v=_HCsW0xh1Mk

​In addition to tracing the history of longnecks, it would be interesting to look at all the different banjos Pete played over his career.

pastorharry - Posted - 04/13/2015:  16:43:58

guitars.com/inventory/ja6137-1...ing  Link to an early conversion played by Erik Darling with the Weavers and Terriers.

Edited by - pastorharry on 04/13/2015 16:47:16

mcgeorgerl - Posted - 04/13/2015:  16:58:13

I seem to recall reading that Pete was very unhappy with the first fretting job by D'Angelico because they were not in the correct places. I've seen photos of that neck where you can see the where the old frets were filled in. Not sure when he came up with that unusual bridge made from circuit board material. I think that I still have the Frets magazine that gives the info and plans for making it.

Joe Connor - Posted - 04/13/2015:  17:07:36

Here's more information on this longneck owned by Erik Darling:

fretboardjournal.com/blog/catc...stom-neck

By the way, the group was the Tarriers, not the Terriers. (Of course, if they had been the Terriers, they might have had a hit with "How Much Is That Doggie In The Window?")

Edited by - Joe Connor on 04/13/2015 17:13:53

mikehalloran - Posted - 04/13/2015:  17:22:25

>

(1) In the 1940s, John D'Angelico in NYC converted an Orpheum pot to a "2+" longneck for Pete Seeger.

Watch this 1947 video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hr9FP93o8Ro

<

I'm pretty certain that's the Whyte Laydie, the banjo with the +2 extension. The Orpheum neck did not have dots with a star at the 5th fret (7th fret after extension). Anyway, that was Pete's first long neck and was stolen.

As far as I can tell, the Orpheum neck was mated to a Tubaphone pot, later extended to +3 by Pete or Pete and John D. There are plenty of pictures of it before and after the extension,. That neck was broken at a party and later replaced with the homemade lingum vitae neck.

Peggy and Bob Gibson both had Deluxe pots converted by Vega. Although many insist that they are the same banjo, neither ever said that. Besides, I saw Bob's in 1991 in Chicago – long after Peggy got hers.

Edited by - mikehalloran on 04/13/2015 17:29:37

Joe Connor - Posted - 04/13/2015:  17:31:12

I have a few questions:

1. Did Pete play the Tubaphone pot with the lingum vitae neck both before and after Vega gave him the PS-5?

2.  Wasn't that PS-5 auctioned off in some kind of controversial fund-raiser for Sing Out?

3. Who made the lingum vitae neck? I think I heard that John D'Angelico did the rough work and Pete himself did the finish work.

MusicManMike - Posted - 04/13/2015:  17:43:26

This thread is too cool! Can we keep it going?

guitarman8491 - Posted - 04/13/2015:  18:19:43

Ken, Fret Board Journal did a piece on Pete a few years back. It was an interesting article with Pete discussing his long neck and how it evolved. Some good photos of it as well. I believe you may be able to see the article on line.

Joe Connor - Posted - 04/13/2015:  18:24:27

Thanks for the tip, Doug. Here's the article: fretboardjournal.com/features/...t-lengths

mcgeorgerl - Posted - 04/13/2015:  18:41:21

Many particulars concerning Pete's banjos can be found by reading the online articles from the Fretboard Journal including the lignum vitae neck, stolen banjo, misplaced frets...

Sing Out! giveaway..."The Vega people gave me a nice long-neck banjo that I used to keep as a spare until I gave it away to a nice young newspaper reporter in Florida. We were raising money for Sing Out! Magazine and I said that I would give my spare banjo to anybody who would sell a hundred subscriptions for Sing Out!" Taken from Frets September 1979

Stu Jamieson wrote in June 1987's issue of Frets Magazine after many requests for an article about Pete's unusual bridge.. There is a full scale picture of Stu's version but he states earlier in the article that Pete's was bigger due to the size of his hands. Pete's PC board bridge may have had extra notches that enabled him to spread strings 1, 2, 4 and 5 (not sure how he tuned his long neck) out significantly further apart.

Ken LeVan - Posted - 04/13/2015:  18:46:42

quote:

---

Originally posted by mikehalloran

>

(1) In the 1940s, John D'Angelico in NYC converted an Orpheum pot to a "2+" longneck for Pete Seeger.

Watch this 1947 video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hr9FP93o8Ro

<

I'm pretty certain that's the Whyte Laydie, the banjo with the +2 extension. The Orpheum neck did not have dots with a star at the 5th fret (7th fret after extension). Anyway, that was Pete's first long neck and was stolen.

As far as I can tell, the Orpheum neck was mated to a Tubaphone pot, later extended to +3 by Pete or Pete and John D. There are plenty of pictures of it before and after the extension,. That neck was broken at a party and later replaced with the homemade lingum vitae neck.

Peggy and Bob Gibson both had Deluxe pots converted by Vega. Although many insist that they are the same banjo, neither ever said that. Besides, I saw Bob's in 1991 in Chicago – long after Peggy got hers.

---

I agree that the banjo in that 1947 video is probably a Fairbanks / Vega pot because it has 28 hooks, and the neck is a 2+, which I have always heard that John D'Angelico made. I had a friend in Brooklyn in the early 60s who had a Paramount with a 2+ extension definitely done by D'Angelico, so I know John D made those conversions.

The banjo in the 1951 Weavers video, looks to be an Orpheum neck, with (I think) a 3+, which might have been D'Angelico's work

So it seems he had a 2+ Vega conversion in 1947, then a 3+ Orpheum in 1951 - what came next?.

That's interesting that you saw Bob Gibson's in 1991.  That one was always a mystery to me with the block-and dot neck like Peggy's. Did you see the inside of it?

Any idea when the lignum vitae neck was made?

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 04/13/2015:  18:55:38

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joe Connor

 . . .

By the way, the group was the Tarriers, not the Terriers.  . . .

---

As in, "Drill, Ye Tarriers, Drill".

XXXris - Posted - 04/13/2015:  19:56:33

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joe Connor

Thanks for the tip, Doug. Here's the article: fretboardjournal.com/features/...t-lengths

---

Great read, thanks for posting.

I like the idea that his WL with the piece added to the neck is floating around out there somewhere.

pastorharry - Posted - 04/14/2015:  11:54:57

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joe Connor

By the way, the group was the Tarriers, not the Terriers. (Of course, if they had been the Terriers, they might have had a hit with "How Much Is That Doggie In The Window?")

---

Busted by the folk police...I plead guilty as charged