banjotrader - Posted - 12/22/2014:  15:55:24

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Can anyone on BHO share any "bills of sale" / "customer receipts" of Vega Banjos from the 1909-1940 era?  Specifically looking for the SN association.  

I'll update my finding and key information directly below this line, it'll represent the earliest instrument types that I've found.  If anyone has updates, please post and I'll update here:

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________



*******************************MOST UP-TO-DATE Information (Updated Mar 29 2016)*******************



Serial Number:



1880-1890: 1000/yr

Earliest Banjos

1890: Faibanks Electric #41

late 1890: Fairbanks Electric Curtis #826

1891: Imperial Electric #1212

1891: Columbian #1792

1892: Senator #1916

1894: Special #12213

1895: Regent #14295

1896: Metal Name Plate ~14900



This dating scheme seems very logical given the Serial-Earliest Seen:

hschwartz.com/FairbanksBanjos/...bers.html

​Whyte Laydie: (Intro 1901): 20343



Tubaphone: (Intro 1909): 25052



Vegaphone (Intro/Launch Jun+ 1923):

      58527 (This instrument is thought to be a prototype Vegaphone from Early 1923, since B. Smakula has quoted 58982 as having a clear "Apr 1923" printed on the instrument)

      60306/61899/62930/63139/63434 (all have mixed Vegaphone identification attributes i.e. Scale/Flanges/Tailpiece/etc..)

      63909 is a fully stamped Vegaphone

    - pdfpiw.uspto.gov/.piw?Docid=01549020 Filed Oct 1923

    - hangoutstorage.com/banjohangou...12015.jpg​ Jun 1923 Ad in the Music Trades.  Had also be mentioned in Apr 1923 before the Washington, DC Guild show

    - Launch in Q3 1923.  First with Professional, Artist & Deluxe.  The Soloist would be introduced in June 1925 (SN ~82000)

    - The Vegaphone model also incorporated a new Resonator called the "Magnatone".  First references to this naming in 1925.

Vegavox (Intro/Launch July 1927 in Crescendo Magazine):  

   92623 (Trademark first use Jun 1927) 

   - tsdr.uspto.gov/documentviewer?...104161353 )

Moderne - 97752

Crescent - 98404



Branding:

First AC Fairbanks Name Plate: ~14900

Last Fairbanks: 26019

First Fairbanks-Vega: 26023

Last Fairbanks-Vega: 52724

First Vega Only Stamp: 52667 (~Jul 1922 - see below))

                   - This corresponds to within one/two months before David L Day's departure from Vega to Bacon Banjo Co. (Aug-Sep 1922)                      

                   - Vega Company also filed all trademarks of "VEGA" / "TU-BA-PHONE" / "WHYTE LAYDIE"

                                      - [ US Trademarks 164,845 / 161,709 / 161,708 respectively filed in Apr 1922 and Registered Nov 07 1922 ]

                                         Registrations Numbers: 161328 / 161329 / 161330 (hangoutstorage.com/banjohangou...12015.jpg)

                                         The first use claims are a little generous I think, but do support other known facts re: 1889, 1890, etc...

                                      - This time frame provides some possible insight to the advanced notice David L Day provided to Carl Nelson

                                        that he was leaving Vega for the Bacon Banjo Co. Inc.  His exit is thought to have propelled

                                        Carl Nelson to Trademark everything. 



Filed Feb 1908 / Patented July 27th 1909 (patentimages.storage.googleapi...df​):

Last Pending: 25141

Earliest: 25230



Serialization based on this research (Ongoing):

By working from the Cumulative perspective, using the key dates mentioned above you can easily interpolate an weighted set of second degree polynomials with Least squares (3 data points at a time guarantees an R^2=1).  The summary below shows a basic view which aligns very closely to the Modelled findings.



Fairbanks & Cole:

1880-1890: 1000/yr



Fairbanks&Co: (Note Some of these banjos also have Fairbanks & Cole double stamped):



1890: 0-999

1891: 1000-1999

1892: 2000-2999

1893: 3000-3999

1894: 4000-13999

1895: 14000-14999

Metal Nameplate Introduced

1896: 15000-15999

1897: 16000-16999

1898: 17000-17999

1899: 18000-18999

Year	First	Last	Volume	Modeled Volumes	Cumulative	Comments
1900	19000	19999	1000	1000	20000
1901	20000	20999	1000	1000	21000	Whyte Laydie Intro ~20343
1902	21000	21999	1000	1000	22000
1903	22000	22999	1000	1000	23000
1904	23000	23299	300	300	23300
1905	23300	23499	200	200	23500
1906	23500	23999	500	500	24000	Consalvi leaves in early 1906 ~ 23700
1907	24000	24199	200	200	24200
1908	24200	24999	800	800	25000
1909	25000	26349	1350	1347	26347	Tubaphone Intro ~25000 & First FB/Vega Stamp
1910	26350	27799	1450	1410	27757
1911	27800	29149	1350	1379	29136
1912	29150	29999	850	883	30019
1913	30000	30799	800	793	30812
1914	30800	31499	700	703	31515
1915	31500	32199	700	666	32181
1916	32200	32999	800	795	32976
1917	33000	33799	800	800	33776
1918	33800	34599	800	803	34579
1919	34600	37099	2500	2517	37096
1920	37100	42299	5200	5230	42326
1921	42300	48899	6600	6567	48893
1922	48900	56799	7900	7904	56797	David L Day leaves~53000, 1st Vega Stamp ~52600
1923	56800	68099	11300	11327	68124	Vegaphone Intro ~58500
1924	68100	77999	9900	9935	78059
1925	78000	83999	6000	5911	83970	Vegaphone Soloist
1926	84000	88499	4500	4500	88470	Vegaphone Δ Flange ~877XX, Oettinger->Clamshell
1927	88500	93149	4650	4686	93156	Vegavox Intro ~92600
1928	93150	95699	2550	2509	95665
1929	95700	96899	1200	1198	96863
1930	96900	97499	600	626	97489
1931	97500	97899	400	429	97918
1932	97900	98149	250	232	98150

1953	98779	98998
1954	98999	99089
1955	99090	99255
1956	99256	99425
1957	99426	99567
1958	99568	99716
1959	99717	100031
1960	100032	100865
1961	100866	101499
1962	101500	102581
1962A-1964A	10347	12600
1964-1970	124000	130247
1971-1972	130248	130392
1972M-1978M	1	1945
1979	1946	1969

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Edited by - banjotrader on 03/29/2016 08:30:36

The Old Timer - Posted - 12/22/2014:  18:41:37

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Perhaps this website is just what you need? 

 

acousticmusic.org/Identifying-...ga_banjos

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 12/22/2014:  19:11:37

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Banjotrader, I think this is a fabulous idea, and I hope you have gtreat success with it. I'm sure there are some reciepts out there, and it would be wonderful to know just how accurate/inaccurate some of the existing information is. It sounds as if you are hoping to piece together a more comprehensive overview of the Vega company, much as Joe Spann has done with Gibson\, or John Hoft is presently com[piling on Orpheum instruments. I'd help you if I could, but I don't even own a Vega banjo at this time, let alone have the original sales slip.

This is a useful endeavor, because in my experience even the factory records can sometimes be misleading. I've found numerous errors in other lists of this type. For example, the Pierce Piano Atlas, which reputedly used information directly from piano companies, is rife with errors. I presently own a Chickering piano which is listed in the atlas as being produced in 1914, even though the factory date stamps show it as being made in 1907, and on my tuning and rebuilding jobs I've encountered many other instruments with date stamps and signatures that didn't jibe with the dates Bob Pierce had collected.

I applaud you and wish you good luck.

bargrasspicker - Posted - 12/23/2014:  08:47:39

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mugmumps also has some great info too. mugwumps.com/acf_date.html

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Edited by - bargrasspicker on 12/23/2014 08:47:55

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 12/24/2014:  00:40:55

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A chart made on basis of the SN infos by AcousticMusic.Org:

Polle

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Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 12/24/2014 00:49:23

banjotrader - Posted - 12/24/2014:  05:49:29

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Thanks Polle.  I suspect you may have the same concerns of the '23-'32 data fluctuations, and then the straight decline.  I have 2 bills of sales so far, one does not fit the model at all.. In fact, it's a 1934 Sales Receipt, but the existing model places the instrument in '26-'27 - I'd approach this with caution assuming it may have been second hand, or for some reason stood on a shelf for years.  



Looking at things from a launch perspective, the Vega Phone is of interest (Jun 1923) - the earliest Vegaphone I can find is SN - 59019.  Any others to push the line in the sand?

Given the extensive work you've done, if the Vega SN sequence is continuous for Banjo/Mandolin/etc., when compared to your Bacon Banjo view, a real problem is apparent; and it's not with your view!

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Edited by - banjotrader on 12/24/2014 05:52:58

mikehalloran - Posted - 12/25/2014:  08:59:35

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You have other proof than that serial number for a June 1923 date for a Vegaphone?

banjotrader - Posted - 12/25/2014:  11:48:11

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My apologies, Jul-Aug '23 is the earliest ad I can find

beezaboy - Posted - 12/25/2014:  12:29:37

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The Music Trades - June 9, 1923.

The Music Trades - June 9, 1923

banjotrader - Posted - 12/25/2014:  13:09:23

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Thanks John, I knew I had seen it somewhere

banjotrader - Posted - 12/25/2014:  17:11:23

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Of course the second obvious line in the sand is the Sept 1927 Vegavox launch. It's my understanding that it had been promoted before launch, but officially introduced to trade on ~Sept 10 1927.

mikehalloran - Posted - 12/25/2014:  18:33:15

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That doesn't mean that any were shipping in June. 

banjotrader - Posted - 12/25/2014:  20:38:36

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Agreed, just a max date for approximation.

banjotrader - Posted - 12/29/2014:  07:17:50

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So far, the Serial Numbers sample that I have collected (which is statically valid - since that is my field of expertise) I can make an educated statement that the existing dating chart is approx 2-3 yrs off in the 1930+ era..  and about ~1-2 years off in the 1923+ era.    This validates that the decline wasnt as rapid as Polle's graph of the current model estimates (Thanks for that BTW, it really helps see the trouble areas).  With just a few more datapoints this will allow for a far less skewed view; and is actually a lot closer to Polle's Bacon Banjo graph (which BTW continues to improve on a daily basis).  I did a very deep dive on his view last year, and it is within a month +/- at its highest accuracy.  - Great job Polle...

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Edited by - banjotrader on 12/29/2014 07:19:31

Troyer Kirkley - Posted - 12/29/2014:  09:32:40

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I have an old Vegaphone plectrum banjo serial Number 89585. It probably dates in the mid 1930s. It is in excellent condition with a great sound. Can anyone add any more info about this classic banjo?

banjotrader - Posted - 12/29/2014:  09:41:24

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Hi Clare, this seems consistent with what I've been finding.  The Vegaphone SNs exist before & after the Vegavox introduction in 1927.  Yours would be from late '26-'27 based on the data available.  

However, the intent of this thread is to push the SN to the earliest known by model.  This will help lock a Serial Number to a date in time

mikehalloran - Posted - 12/29/2014:  11:29:16

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Your best bets are still Mike Holmes and whatever information that Mike Longworth collected at Martin– I have asked someone to look for that in the Martin archives.

Number of Vegas that have passed through my hands: 100+

Number of those Vegas with the info you are looking for: 0

banjotrader - Posted - 12/29/2014:  11:33:08

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K, I know that Greig H has nothing, so mabye Dick B can shed some light on the matter...  Are those your guys?

banjotrader - Posted - 12/30/2014:  10:23:27

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Here is a view of the preliminary model with key dates

Apr 1908 (Bill of Sale)

Jun 1923 (Vegaphone Minimum Date)

Sep 1927 (Vegavox Minimum Date)

Jan 1933+ (Vega Serialization) 



I've also checked against Jim Bollman's 1978 estimates, and we are pretty close before 1923 as well.   I have a couple more bills of sale, but seem to be second hand as they generally dont fit anywhere close to any known models.

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Edited by - banjotrader on 12/30/2014 10:25:47

banjotrader - Posted - 12/30/2014:  20:29:35

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One last note before the new year.  After much review, something jumped out at me when looking over the Bollman data, and my collected stats.  The beginning of year's SN seem to most-always be on flat numbers (i.e. XX000).  Here is a tabular view that summarizes the SNs extremely well.

Year	First	Last	Volume
1900	19000	19999	999
1901	20000	20999	999
1902	21000	21999	999
1903	22000	22999	999
1904	23000	23299	299
1905	23300	23499	199
1906	23500	23999	499
1907	24000	24199	199
1908	24200	24999	799
1909	25000	25999	999
1910	26000	26999	999
1911	27000	27999	999
1912	28000	28999	999
1913	29000	29999	999
1914	30000	30999	999
1915	31000	31999	999
1916	32000	32999	999
1917	33000	33999	999
1918	34000	34999	999
1919	35000	36999	1999
1920	37000	39999	2999
1921	40000	46999	6999
1922	47000	54999	7999
1923	55000	63999	8999	VP~59000
1924	64000	72999	8999
1925	73000	80999	7999
1926	81000	86999	5999
1927	87000	92999	5999	VV~92000
1928	93000	94999	1999
1929	95000	95999	999
1930	96000	96999	999
1931	97000	97999	999
1932	98000	98149	149
1933	98150	98184	34

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Edited by - banjotrader on 12/30/2014 20:34:36

Pinacate - Posted - 01/01/2015:  10:45:22

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Since your serial numbers go from XXXX0 to XXXX9, don't you want your annual volumes to end in 0 (except for 1933 which would be 35)? i.e., add 1 to all your volumes
steve

banjotrader - Posted - 01/01/2015:  11:16:01

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Yes, that had been changed above

banjotrader - Posted - 01/03/2015:  11:49:28

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Note that all updates are posted at the top of this thread (here)

Nuts - Posted - 01/05/2015:  11:18:14

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banjotrader, thanks for posting this information.

 

I checked my Style N tenor and discovered it is within a few digits of the Fairbanks to Vega label cut-off.  

 

First Vega Only Stamp: 52667

 

My Style N has serial number 52655 and is labeled Fairbanks banjo made by the Vega Company. This certainly helps support your serial # 52667 Fairbanks to Vega only label.

 

banjotrader - Posted - 01/05/2015:  11:25:43

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Interestingly, I see some leftover Fairbanks by Vega stamps being used until ~52724

mikehalloran - Posted - 01/09/2015:  07:11:09

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This makes sense. The number was applied when the banjo was about ready to ship. There is no hard cutoff.

I've seen the Fairbanks by Vega stamp on Vegaphone plectrums with mahogany necks, many also have Tubaphone NO 3 stamped on the dowel and some have both stamps.

It's pretty clear that he dowel was stamped when the neck was made and that he number was applied when the banjo was assembled for shipping which could have been much later--decades later in a few cases but that usually applies more to he pots.

GerryMac - Posted - 01/14/2015:  19:49:13

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Hi Banjotrader

Good to hear from you.

The S/N of my Vegaphone De Luxe is 67392. According to Mugwumps this dates it at 1925 although on your blog you show 1924.
Please note, it is NOT a No. 9 Style X as you said you own in your post in BHO.
It has abalone shell along the bottom edge of the pot and 'Vegaphone' on the dowel stick. It's the big pot version - 11 & 13/16" with 30 hooks and a beautiful deep tone.

I bought it in England in Aug 2010 but, on doing some research after its purchase, I'm almost sure that my English seller got it in Denver, Co, as I saw an out-of-date ad, with a contact number in Denver, on an internet auction site describing what I'd bought - almost to a 'T' - but before it was cleaned up.

I love it to bits but I'm actually considering selling it at the mo as I've currently 3 tenors (V de Luxe, Vega Pro & Paramount F) and don't gig as much as I did. I'll sell it in Europe though as the prices in the States are lowish in comparison and there's the postage to consider. However, heart may win over wallet in the end!

I think you may be confusing me with someone else about me selling a banjo to anyone in France and I've never owned a 9X.

Hope that helps

Best wishes.

Gerry

banjotrader - Posted - 01/15/2015:  06:21:21

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Thanks Gerry, I'll be sure to include this in my growing repository (now about 2% of total production).  Do send any/all Vega to me in Private Message with photos of the SN & Instrument (anything less than SN 99,000 is welcome)

The sampling now possible to uncover production counts by model is coming to light.  For example, the Tubaphone Deluxe Models from 1909-1923 are about 1.6-1.8% of production.  Tenors being about 35% of them.   So current estimates place Tenor models at ~200.

The accuracy is also growing.  Certain bills of sale validate independently against my model to less than 1 month for 1923 & 1927.  Admittedly, the in-between years (i.e. 1924/1925/1926) are still a bit of a guess on the curve.  However, the good news is that with the SN sequence catches up to the validated SN/Dates.

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Edited by - banjotrader on 01/15/2015 06:22:52

banjotrader - Posted - 01/22/2015:  11:04:08

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Note that all updates are posted at the top of this thread (here)

mikehalloran - Posted - 01/22/2015:  16:13:36

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quote:

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Originally posted by banjotrader

Note that all updates are posted at the top of this thread (here)

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How do you get to do that? Us regular folks cannot edit after 15 minutes.

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/23/2015:  03:54:53

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quote:

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Originally posted by mikehalloran

quote:

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Originally posted by banjotrader

Note that all updates are posted at the top of this thread (here)

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How do you get to do that? Us regular folks cannot edit after 15 minutes.

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The Original Poster - OP - can edit the thread at any time.

Polle

banjotrader - Posted - 02/05/2015:  11:13:57

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In order to tighten up the model a bit, Im looking for any key dates from 1909..1920.  Were there any changes/introductions to Vega / Fairbanks Banjo/MandoBanjo/etc...  that can be isolated?

banjotrader - Posted - 02/12/2015:  19:57:35

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Folks, I've loaded some 2200 Serial numbers into my model from Gruhn, Bernunzios, Smakula, Bollman, Mike Longworth.  I have many sale records validated by Mike Longworth.  I'll now be able to get a more accurate view of production by product line.  Stay tuned

Andy FitzGibbon - Posted - 02/14/2015:  13:40:26

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I have several hundred numbers that I've collected on index cards. The challenge is how to get them to you- that's a lot of Xeroxing.

Andy

banjotrader - Posted - 02/14/2015:  13:56:48

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Andy, id certainly welcome maybe if you could place as many as possible in pictures. Many on one page is fine. The more the better. Next steps will be self reporting. But Bollman and Smukula have many more which I'll likely collect this summer when I go down to Nazareth for unrelated research.

Andy FitzGibbon - Posted - 02/14/2015:  14:53:05

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I work for Bob Smakula, and I am the one who maintains our collection of Vega numbers.

Andy

banjotrader - Posted - 02/14/2015:  14:59:57

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Oh great, would multiple cards per picture be feasible instead of one-at-a-time photocopies? PM me and we can exchange emails.

mainejohn - Posted - 02/15/2015:  10:50:46

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I have three 20's Vega's and I'd be happy to share the history/photos/serial numbers with either one of you (Andy or Banjotrader). Good day for me to do that as I'm snowed in here in Maine with nothing better to do.

banjotrader - Posted - 02/15/2015:  11:13:25

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Hi John, I'd love your information. PM me when you have a sec. I just snowblowed my hard, now 7ft.

hbick2 - Posted - 12/25/2015:  03:05:05

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Hi,

Thanks for assembling this list. Here is some more information.

I have photos of an earlier Senator, #1916. It was listed for sale by Leo Coulson of Intermountain.  Also, you haven't listed Special Electrics. The earliest I have photos of is #16276. 

The earliest Fairbanks banjo with a nameplate that I have records for is #14918. It was sold on Ebay in 2006. There is no model designation but it has an oak neck and engraved inlays like an Electric No. 1 of the period. The rim is describes as being like a "Special". It was restored by Smakula Fretted Instruments.

Harry Bickel

Louisville, KY

banjotrader - Posted - 12/25/2015:  15:26:17

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Thanks Harry, I've added your findings to this research.  thanks for your help on this, its very much appreciated.

Andy FitzGibbon - Posted - 12/26/2015:  04:36:34

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quote:

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Originally posted by hbick2

Hi,

Thanks for assembling this list. Here is some more information.

I have photos of an earlier Senator, #1916. It was listed for sale by Leo Coulson of Intermountain.  Also, you haven't listed Special Electrics. The earliest I have photos of is #16276. 

The earliest Fairbanks banjo with a nameplate that I have records for is #14918. It was sold on Ebay in 2006. There is no model designation but it has an oak neck and engraved inlays like an Electric No. 1 of the period. The rim is describes as being like a "Special". It was restored by Smakula Fretted Instruments.

Harry Bickel

Louisville, KY

---

#14918 was my own banjo for a while, and I did the restoration on it. I was never entirely convinced that the neck and rim were original to each other, or that the Fairbanks plate was original to the banjo. It seemed odd that a fairly fancy Oak neck would be paired with a cheap "Special" grade rim, and the rim did not have a serial number stamped on it. The fact that the dowel stick had no model designation stamped on it was also unusual. It could have been an odd put-together at the factory, or perhaps early in its life by some enterprising tinkerer. The black-finished dowel stick always made me wonder if there was anything under the finish, like model designations or an A. C. Fairbanks stamp.

Andy