UnknownUser - Posted - 04/29/2014:  17:17:53

Hi folks,



With much of your help, BHO content and drawing from many "Bacon Banjo Co." subject matter experts, I've been able to produce the following basic charts and a monthly serial number dating model for Silverbell type banjos.  This due to the ever growing content being removed from an existing specialized website which was previously relied on.  This alternative model is based on my findings and matches +/- a couple months to last publicly available model (validated against Google Cached versions).

Edited by - UnknownUser on 07/07/2014 12:36:17

NYCJazz - Posted - 04/29/2014:  19:59:44

Good work, Peter!

beezaboy - Posted - 04/30/2014:  06:17:01

Peter, very nice summary of all your research and efforts.  Quite informative for B&D owners and enthusiasts.

How about the advent of the 19 fret 23" scale Silver Bell?  We have learned that the launch of the Silver Bell 17 fret "long scale" (22") took place at the Chicago Drake Hotel June 3-7, 1923 (attached).

Discovering the date of the launch of the "modern" 19 fret 23" scale Silver Bell has been problematic.

A previous estimate placed the advent of the "modern" Silver Bell at April 1924 through observation and serial number calculations.

My pitiful calculations put the launch a little later at late summer/early fall 1924 based on magazine data.

The first magazine photo that I can find depicting the "modern" Silver Bell was published in The Crescendo magazine April 1925 (attached).

Your estimate at February 1924 is earlier than previously imagined.  Does your calculation of the advent of the "modern" Silver Bell have plus or minus wiggle room or a date range or is it firm at February 1924?

Thanks for posting your research!

PS - a historic tidbit is attached...The "modern" Vega Vegaphone was documented in The Music Trades June 9, 1923.

Close-Up B&D Crescendo Ad for Silver Bell -Nov1923

Crescendo March 1925

First Vegaphone -Music Trades June 9, 1923

UnknownUser - Posted - 04/30/2014:  06:32:35

Hi John, it is my understanding that the word "Long Scale" cant be trusted to mean 19 fret, but rather a 22" scale length. (Just my take)

However, here are some confirmed SNs:

12056 hangoutstorage.com/banjohangou...72011.jpg

12302 (SB No. 3)

12741 (SB No. 1)

12990 (SB No. 6 NPU - also Tsumura)

13741 (my SB No. 2).

I do have to adjust the data.  My fault, I should have said Mar 1924

Edited by - UnknownUser on 04/30/2014 06:33:48

Baconfine - Posted - 04/30/2014:  11:59:58

quote: Sorry   I  don't aggree .

---

Originally posted by petercorfield

Hi folks,



With much of your help, BHO Content and drawing from many "Bacon Banjo Co." subject matter experts I've been able to produce the following basic charts and monthly Serial Number dating estimate models.  Here is a valid replacement based on my findings for the now removed content on Polle's website.

	First	Last
Tonering Perforations
Inside & Outside	Launch	Sep-24
Inside Only	Launch	Jul-27
None	Oct-25	Close
Flange Sound Holes/Shape
Small	Launch	Apr-24
Large	Nov-23	Sep-24
F-Style	Feb-24	Close
Beveled	Launch	Close
Stepped	Feb-25	Close
Resonator Shapes
Solid Spun	Launch	Jan-24
Heavy	Jan-24	Oct-24
Laminated (Inlaid Rings)	Oct-24	Oct-27
Laminated (3 or 4 Scratched/Painted & None)	Oct-27	Jun-29
Laminated (4+ Scratched Rings)	Jun-29	Close
Pyralin Montana	Mar-24	Close
Scale Length
Less than of equal to 22"	Launch	Jun-26
~23"	Mar-24	Close
Peghead Script/Style
A	Launch	Jul-28
B	Feb-24	Close
Non-Script "D"	Launch	Aug-23
Script "D"	Jul-23	Close
Parts & Other Stuff
Presto Tailpiece	Launch	Apr-24
Oettinger Tailpiece	Dec-23	Close
Oettinger Tailpiece on No.2+	May-25	Close
Neck Reinforcement	Nov-25	Close
Soft Pedal Mute	Feb-24	Close
Friction Tuner	Launch	Mar-25
Geared Tuners	Dec-23	Close
Style Nos	Jul-23	Close
Style Numbers
No. 1-3	Launch
No. 4	Oct-23
No. 5-8	Mar-24
No. 9	Jan-27

 

 

	Serial Number Ending in Period (Estimated)
Year	Jan	Feb	Mar	Apr	May	Jun	Jul	Aug	Sep	Oct	Nov	Dec
1922	6,640	6,772	6,911	7,058	7,211	7,371	7,538	7,712	7,893	8,081	8,275	8,477
1923	8,700	8,928	9,161	9,400	9,643	9,892	10,146	10,406	10,670	10,940	11,215	11,496
1924	11,769	12,046	12,326	12,608	12,893	13,180	13,470	13,763	14,059	14,358	14,659	14,963
1925	15,285	15,605	15,925	16,244	16,563	16,880	17,197	17,513	17,828	18,142	18,455	18,768
1926	19,063	19,354	19,640	19,921	20,198	20,469	20,736	20,999	21,256	21,509	21,757	22,001
1927	22,223	22,442	22,658	22,870	23,079	23,284	23,486	23,685	23,880	24,072	24,260	24,445
1928	24,643	24,838	25,032	25,224	25,414	25,602	25,788	25,972	26,155	26,335	26,514	26,691
1929	26,862	27,030	27,197	27,361	27,523	27,683	27,840	27,995	28,148	28,299	28,447	28,594
1930	28,738	28,880	29,021	29,159	29,296	29,430	29,563	29,693	29,822	29,948	30,073	30,195
1931	30,316	30,435	30,553	30,668	30,781	30,893	31,002	31,110	31,215	31,318	31,420	31,520
1932	31,614	31,708	31,799	31,889	31,978	32,065	32,150	32,234	32,316	32,397	32,476	32,554
1933	32,632	32,709	32,785	32,860	32,934	33,008	33,080	33,151	33,221	33,291	33,359	33,426
1934	33,494	33,561	33,627	33,692	33,756	33,819	33,881	33,942	34,001	34,060	34,118	34,174
1935	34,229	34,282	34,334	34,385	34,434	34,482	34,528	34,573	34,617	34,660	34,701	34,741
1936	34,776	34,810	34,843	34,875	34,906	34,937	34,966	34,994	35,022	35,048	35,074	35,098
1937	35,125	35,152	35,178	35,204	35,229	35,253	35,277	35,300	35,323	35,345	35,366	35,387
1938	35,405	35,423	35,440	35,457	35,474	35,489	35,505	35,519	35,533	35,547	35,560	35,573
1939	35,586	35,600	35,612	35,625	35,637	35,649	35,660	35,671	35,682	35,693	35,703	35,713

 

---

UnknownUser - Posted - 04/30/2014:  12:30:38

Hi Achim, do you care to elaborate?

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 05/01/2014:  10:12:00

quote:

---

Originally posted by petercorfield

With much of your help, BHO content and drawing from many "Bacon Banjo Co." subject matter experts, I've been able to produce the following basic charts and a monthly serial number dating model for Silverbell type banjos.  This due to the ever growing content being removed from an existing specialized website which was previously relied on.  This alternative model is based on my findings and matches +/- a couple months to last publicly available model (validated against Google Cached versions). 

---

Guys - I hope, that none of you have been fooled by this thread - min. 95% of the construction/feature/design background and 100% of the dating background comes from yours truly - on basis of intensive studies and researches over many many years.

Due to Peter´s misuse of most of this - plus his dishonorable failure of declaring his references - I´ve lately minimized and copyright protected my general database - at least one other true Bacon/B&D expert has for the same reason done the same regarding his background material - future published and comprehensive charts/infos by me will be protected in the same way.

Polle

UnknownUser - Posted - 05/01/2014:  10:38:36

That old world mentality is a dying breed.  You are quite wrong, the SN model is my own built on slick regression modeling, the charts are derived from collected information (against my SN view).  It aligns nicely to yours in format only. Google is a strong tool and have slowly been validating your work over the last year.  It is quite good work you've done.  As mentioned in a private message, not sharing with the world is your prerogative; it doesn't mean however that everybody is lost without your website.   Continue to share in a private setting.  That's up to you.   I'd hope you can accept this, and not banter on...

UnknownUser - Posted - 05/01/2014:  12:36:12

Just a typical day in the office for some: youtube.com/watch?v=UzIQOQGKeyI

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 05/02/2014:  02:24:32

quote:

---

Originally posted by petercorfield

That old world mentality is a dying breed.  ------ I'd hope you can accept this -------.

---

No - I can´t - to me and most others the virtues of honesty, respect and loyalty are these days more important than ever.

Polle

UnknownUser - Posted - 05/02/2014:  05:44:54

Whatever!



The beauty lies in the fact that now your website can go online and offline all day without effect (i.e. no longer required).  The content here however, shall remain dynamic/ever-evolving/free/independent of mood and simply validated against previous works of yours before your new found need of copyright.  Working within the bounds of your communication between "the experts" entitled "The Corfield Problem" (more on that below), your work was only used as a benchmark.



Proof (Forwarded to me by you on Feb 24 2014):

"...BTW – regarding copyright – my published DB, charts, pics etc. are open-source “by nature” – but my extended DB and the many private infos etc., that I have in my archives and am using for my researches, are absolutely not. Somewhat in the same way as yours. Mine however not so much for the privacy – but first of all because the use of this material calls for an expertice like yours and mine. I take, that you´ll agree..."



You'll no doubt understand now.  I suggest you let it be and work with us to help move this forum forward - in an open way.

Edited by - UnknownUser on 05/02/2014 05:50:17

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 05/04/2014:  06:09:22

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baconfine

quote: Sorry   I  don't aggree . 

---

Achim,

Neither do I.  Peter´s dating charts are first of all and basically based on my various postings at BHO, my general database as published on the run plus my for some time deleted (due to it being out-dated) chart for the development of the classic Silver Bell - the latter based on my yet not published extended database.

As mentioned above - to me the virtues of honesty, respect and loyalty are these days more important than ever - but I can´t respect a person peeping in my garbage bin during night time - for maybe finding some left-over goodies or out-dated stuff.

And out-dated his charts are - only a few days after their release - as a result of his non-scientific behavior - ´cause my databases are revised almost on a daily basis - on basis of new infos popping up all the time.

Regards

Polle

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 05/06/2014:  06:14:47

Guys,

End of story - it seems - some accounts have been locked lately - including Peter´s. I do only partly know the background for this.

As a result I´m soon going to publish some up-dated sites of mine - regarding the Groton production and especially the development of various models/styles over the years 1920-39.

So - if interested in the beloved banjos from this era - do keep an eye open for future threads/postings of mine.

Kind regards

Polle

UnknownUser - Posted - 05/06/2014:  06:21:45

Not quite.  But I have decide to move on from this topic.  Thanks for everyone's help with my research over the last year.

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 05/07/2014:  06:46:31

Guys,

FYI - I have not been an active part icw. Peter´s departure from the BHO forums - I´ve afterwards asked the moderators for a possible explanation/background - but because I´m not an active part - they´ll of course not reveal the details.

Regards

Polle

UnknownUser - Posted - 05/08/2014:  17:33:30

Of course they won't, it's none of your business!  Wow..  But, yes you've certainly made my choice much easier to unplug.  And it is better to move on from this pointless research as "suggested" - you have all the supposed "answers", don't want real help or new 'young' perspectives, and claim fact.  It's all about you.  Good work!  Peace.

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 05/09/2014:  04:31:54

quote:

---

Originally posted by UnknownUser

Of course they won't, it's none of your business!  Wow..  But, yes you've certainly made my choice much easier to unplug.  And it is better to move on from this pointless research as "suggested" - you have all the supposed "answers", don't want real help or new 'young' perspectives, and claim fact.  It's all about you.  Good work!  Peace.

---

Peter - you´re totally wrong - it´s indeed my business - you have for a very long time spoiled my otherwise good spirit - but as told to the Mod´s afterwards I was in fact sad noticing you go - and I and others do in fact welcome any new infos and perspectives regarding the beloved Bacon/B&D´s - the study of these and their history has not stopped - it´s still on-going - as told you privately several times you could have become a great researcher/historian regarding these - sadly your attitude/behavior prevented you from becoming a member of the "good society".

The charts put up by you at this thread are signs of what´s normally called academic dishonesty - I´ll recommend you studying this topic closely for a while.

Peter - I´ll wish you all the best for the future

Polle

jims38134 - Posted - 07/08/2014:  05:39:45

Oddly this thread keeps getting bumped to the top with no new post?  What gives? jim

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 07/08/2014:  05:55:24

Jim,

Peter Corfield - even after having closed his BHO accounts - btw. as strongly demanded by the Mod´s - has found a way (via his IT-skills, it guess) to edit the first posting at this thread.

Lately he has opened a new profile/account "banjotrader" and once again started attacking the integrity of yours truly - banjohangout.org/topic/287533

Regards

Polle

banjotrader - Posted - 07/08/2014:  09:17:17

Im afraid you are mistaken. Re: link. It's a mere question of talking out of both sides of ones mouth as it relates to this. Im sure one can elaborate further in the appropriate thread with some supporting documents to prove such claim. Move forward pls.

Edited by - banjotrader on 07/08/2014 09:18:25

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 07/10/2014:  04:24:10

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjotrader

Im afraid you are mistaken. Re: link. It's a mere question of talking out of both sides of ones mouth as it relates to this. Im sure one can elaborate further in the appropriate thread with some supporting documents to prove such claim. Move forward pls.

---

Jim,

There you have it - one disturbed person - it seems.  And absolute not wanted as a BHO-member - by the Mod´s.

If wanted - I´ll post both their and my comments off-line - for clarification.

Regards

Polle

banjotrader - Posted - 07/10/2014:  07:27:23

Let me rephrase since you are on a one way track of mind. 



Im afraid you are mistaken (About attacking your integrity). Re: link (http://www.banjohangout.org/topic/287533). It's a mere question of talking out of both sides of ones mouth as it relates to this (Meaning you say one thing one day, and something different the next). Im sure one can elaborate further in the appropriate thread (why the unrelated forum post - put it in the right place) with some supporting documents to prove such claim (Meaning how did you discover this 19 Fret for sometime, please provide additional info supporting your claim as all other discussions by you point to 12056, and the current owner for the first last time (last week by me) learned that he had the earliest known SB with 19 Frets). Move forward pls.  Think we are (Anybody interested in this, is) confused???  Please help...

Edited by - banjotrader on 07/10/2014 07:28:45

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 07/11/2014:  05:41:11

Peter - Oh Peter,

I did myself get "your" pics early 2011 - plus some more - f.ex. this one - do notice the characteristic green painted M:

The reason for me withholding the info about it being a 19-fret tenor - for a few years - well, that´s for me to know - you wouldn´t understand the reason.  Simply - because you´re not an expert!

End of story - at least for my part

Polle

jims38134 - Posted - 07/11/2014:  05:46:00

I'm a bit disturbed that a disagreement between 2 members would escalate to only one of them to be "asked to leave" by the moderators.  I would have hoped that this is an open forum and that everyone's input within normal reason, would be valued.  If members choose to follow or not follow a thread or particular post that is their prerogative and freedom.  I'm sure I am not the only that has found a particular poster to be obnoxious, rude or distasteful on occasion.

jim