Stardust - Posted - 12/02/2013:  15:30:55

Greetings All,

Can any of you current or former BC-350 owners out there provide me with some general guidance on the design and removal of the so-called "mock dowel stick/coordinator rod" on Gold Tone's BC-350 model? I just don't get it? Its a single (square) wooden dowel with threaded stud (and 1/2" nut) at the tailpiece end, which travels through the rim per usual at the rear, but at the neck interface, it apparently cannot be turned counter-clockwise to loosen it from the neck studs because its got two flat, gold-plated square metal skirts that wrap around each end of the dowel that if turned, would scratch the daylights out of the curved inside surface of the finished rim.

I've searched the topic widely here on BHO and the greater internet, but I can't seem to find anything that would help. For example, in this instance, what does the term "mock" mean? And have I got some sort of oddball design here? Some have suggested that it just pops out of place once the tailpiece nut is loosened, but that's clearly not the case, because the tailpiece stud extends through the rim, restricting it from removal as long as the neck is in place. Anybody have any ideas??

Thanks

Edited by - Stardust on 12/02/2013 15:31:57

jacktraylor - Posted - 12/02/2013:  15:47:18

It would seem that a course of action might be to pose this question to the customer  service desk  at Gold Tone?

Edited by - jacktraylor on 12/02/2013 15:48:03

Stardust - Posted - 12/02/2013:  16:01:10

Yup, totally! Problem is, with time difference, I rarely seem to catch them, but if no one here seems to know, then it may come down to that.



Thanks.

Edited by - Stardust on 12/02/2013 16:01:28

Hawgfiddle65 - Posted - 12/03/2013:  02:47:30

Hi

I'm interested in this .I have a BC350 which I really like . I haven't had the need to dismantle it yet but would be interested in finding out more about my banjo and how it is constructed.

Hopefully someone could tell us .

Jim

thefolkshop - Posted - 12/03/2013:  05:30:12

Wayne Rogers is available at Gold Tone Monday trough Thursday to answer any of those questions. E-mail him if time zones are a problem. He is very knowledgeable and responsive.  Paul

grm405 - Posted - 12/03/2013:  06:22:35

I am going to take a wild guess here and say that it is attached the same way that Rudy attaches his hollow dowel stick/coordinator rod setup, ie. a large nut holding the tailpiece bracket on.  Remove it and the neck/rod will simply slide out of the pot assembly.  Can't think of any other way to do it.

Could be a nut or a ball type screw on tailpiece holder.  Remove it and see.

Gerry

OldPappy - Posted - 12/03/2013:  08:06:17

Please post back once you find the answer.

I worked on one of these a while back, and was curious about that dowel stick, but for what I was working on I did not need to take it apart so did not find out anything about how it is installed.

Gerry is probably right, I bet it is similar to Rudy's rod attachment.

Stardust - Posted - 12/03/2013:  13:25:04

O.K., so I spoke with Gold Tone folks directly and I haven't yet removed the mock dowel stick/coordinator rod, but I follow what they're saying, so I shouldn't have any problem. Here's their answer . . .



The metal coordinator rod on the BC-350 is no different than any other conventional coordinator rod - it travels through the entire inside length of the wooden dowel stick, from neck to tailpiece with female machine threads on one end (that attach to the male hanger bolt in the neck) and male machine threads on the opposite end (at the tailpiece), which attaches to the tailpiece bracket. So, to remove it, I/we need to do four (4) things:



1) Loosen and remove the 1/2" nut that holds the tailpiece and tailpiece bracket on, and remove both pieces.



2) Reinstall the 1/2" nut onto the machine threads of the coordinator rod at the tailpiece end, and thread it on until its about half way down the threads.



3) Install an identical second 1/2" nut (not provided) onto the tailpiece end of the coordinator rod, until it strikes the first 1/2" nut, and them bind them together snuggly by turning them each in opposite directions (i.e., towards each other) with 1/2" combination wrenches.



4) Using a 1/2" wrench, twist the inner-most 1/2" nut (the one closet to the wood rim) counter-clockwise (toward the 2nd 1/2" nut), which will cause the entire coordinator rod to also twist counter-clockwise, and continue until the coordinator rod has been separated from the neck. Note: Make sure that the weight of the neck itself is propped-up and fully supported by something to help relieve strain on the hanger bolt threads as the coordinator rod is being turned counter-clockwise.



Now that it's been separated from the neck, the wooden dowel and its internal metal coordinator rod should be free to slip upwards and out of the rim at the neck end, and the neck itself can then be removed from the rim.



Anyway, I hope this brief explanation helps other interested BC-350 owners, but if not, feel free to PM me, and I'll make a point to post again here tomorrow sometime, after I've actually had a chance to do this removal on my own BC-350+.



Thanks

Edited by - Stardust on 12/03/2013 13:26:52

Stardust - Posted - 12/03/2013:  15:55:52

Edit/Correction: The two nuts used on the tailpiece end of the coordinator rod (above) are coarse-threaded metric nuts (not U.S.), so they are 13-mm in diameter, not 1/2" as I had stated. I'll have to make a run to the hardware store sometime to get a pair of these before I can proceed with the dowel stick removal on mine. Also, the total length of exposed threaded area on the end of the coordinator rod that extends out beyond the wood rim at the tailpiece end, is only about 5/8-3/4" long on my BC-350, so there's not a lot of room there to thread on two separate nuts - it'll be tight.

Stardust - Posted - 12/03/2013:  17:40:03

Done! I found a couple of 'slim' 13-mm coarse threaded nuts and followed the directions cited above, and the neck readily detached from the coordinator rod, so I'm good-to-go at this point. I can also now see that the threaded length of coordinator rod that extends out beyond the rim needed to be quite short in length or it wouldn't have allowed it the clearance it needed to be removed from the inside wall of the rim.

And lastly, I sense from some earlier readings here and elsewhere that this 'double-nut' approach may be a rather routine technique for experienced luthiers, but I hadn't yet heard of it (or tried it), so now I know. If nothing else, I hope this brief thread will serve to help some others out there with these so-called "mock dowel" coordinator rods".

Thanks to All

rudy - Posted - 12/03/2013:  18:35:13

Thanks, Stardust.  I hadn't seen this particular problem addressed in the past.

The use of jam nuts are the most common way of creating a way of installing (or uninstalling) studs incorporating machine threads.  One really needs to know the mechanics of exactly how something is put together before applying a lot of force, so you did well in researching.

On a related note, there have been MANY posts where the same method to remove a hanger bolt from a neck heel was done, but the heel was damaged because the hanger bolt had a screw embedded in the end from below the heel cap.  I relate that as an example so others will be sure to know exactly what's going on before strong-arming a hanger bolt out.

Stardust - Posted - 12/03/2013:  18:50:57

Rudy,

Yup, those are both great points. I walk real-real softly when it comes to things like hanger bolts and stripping threads and the like. I've learned the hard way over the years. Fortunately, with the weight of the neck being fully supported, the jam nut technique worked like a charm on mine, and of course, there's little room for error, because with an open back like this one, there's only one hanger bolt to rely on (not two) - strip that one and you've added to your troubles.

As you've stated, a diagram of some sort showing the design beforehand would have been great, but unfortunately, Gold Tone did have one available, so they spent the time necessary with me by phone to describe it in sufficient detail that I could envision precisely what was going on. So its all good!

Thanks again.

rudy - Posted - 12/03/2013:  18:57:56

It does seem like Gold Tone should have a user's manual available as a downloadable PDF for owners and repairmen/women to have access to.  Small details like that ,as well as truss rod type / adjustment information, etc. wouldn't be too much to ask.

Stardust - Posted - 12/03/2013:  19:12:14

Yes, I tend to agree. I dunno, perhaps they figure that most folks who are going to be working on these things are pro-level luthiers who already know and understand the design nuances, but that certainly wasn't the case in this particular instance. As a matter of fact, I don't know if this is 'typical' or not, but this was one of those cases where the bite between the heel of the neck and the rim/tension hoop was tight enough that it would not have been possible for the casual owner to even change their head without removal of the dowel stick/coordinator rod and neck. It was that snug (which I have to imagine is a 'good' thing from the standpoint of resonance and tone). 

Anyway, on the plus side, there can't be too many other possibilities in terms of coordinator rod designs out there, so if nothing else, this episode has helped me learn what I needed for time immemorial. ;-)

Edited by - Stardust on 12/03/2013 19:13:12

Hawgfiddle65 - Posted - 12/04/2013:  01:38:21

Stardust,......

Very useful imformation .Thankyou for your research. I don't plan to take my BC350 apart at the mo but forewarned is forearmed .Just checked my tool kit .I have a couple of 13mm spanners. If you have any pics that would be fab . Fills another gap in the BHO library of banjo maintainence..... Thanks Jim

Stardust - Posted - 12/04/2013:  16:44:39

Hawgfiddle,

You're quite welcome. I'm afraid I didn't take any photos at the time, but I can certainly do so, if need be. If you get to the point where you're taking your BC-350 apart to change the head or whatever, I think you'll see that its pretty straight forward, and if not, feel free to PM me - I'll be glad to help wherever I can (i.e., photos, instructional guidance, whatever). You'll need your two 13-mm spanners and you'll definitely need another 13-mm coarse threaded nut (to match the one at your current tailpiece bracket), but once you've got those in-hand and you've actually done this disassembly, you'll be amazed at how easy it really is.

Best,
Stardust

banjonz - Posted - 12/04/2013:  21:41:22

You have gone into a lot of detail. However I ask the question..."why do you want to take it apart"? If it ain't broke, don't fix it!! I take it you were not experiencing any issue with the jo, so I assume that you just wanted to know what was inside. Thanks for doing it. I have a BC-350+ so I assume it may be the same.

Stardust - Posted - 12/05/2013:  11:34:55

quote:

Originally posted by banjonz

You have gone into a lot of detail. However I ask the question..."why do you want to take it apart"? If it ain't broke, don't fix it!! I take it you were not experiencing any issue with the jo, so I assume that you just wanted to know what was inside. Thanks for doing it. I have a BC-350+ so I assume it may be the same.

Z,

You're quite welcome, and as far as "why" I took it apart? Simple. I wanted to change the head from a Renaissance to a Fiberskyn-3, and unless you plan on taking your BC-350+ to a luthier, you'll need to learn the very same steps if you ever go to change or replace the head on yours.

pft573 - Posted - 12/27/2013:  07:33:39

I had a similar experience with my BC 350+. I posted a question about removing the neck several months ago but didn't get any response. When I first bought it, I want to give it a good cleaning. I removed all the strings and noticed the neck had quite a bit of play in it. I could rock it up and down and from side to side. There was no movement in the neck when the strings were installed and it played fine. But that loose neck was really bugging me. On my banjo the co-rod is very short and would not allow a jam nut to be used. I have a set of German made stud removers that grip the stud without damaging the threads and was able to remove the co-rod without any problem. When it was out I found the threads were damage not allowing the rod to be tighten sufficiently to hold the neck firmly in place. Got the tap and die set out and cleaned the threads and the neck went on without a hitch. If I ever had to take it out again I think I would slot the end of the rod with a Dremel to allow a flat headed screwdriver to be used. I think Gold Tone should have done that in the first place.

Happy Holidays

Paul