steve davis - Posted - 09/17/2012:  12:19:44

I've found 1/4 turn on the hook nuts to be worth 1/2 step on the head note.

Pretty tidy how that is,imo.

wuzapicker - Posted - 09/17/2012:  12:34:46

I suppose that is with a Remo type head as opposed to a Renascence head.

Somehow I was conditioned to turn the hex nuts in one flat, 1/6" turn intervals as optimum tension is approached to avoid breaking the head. But then I haven't been tuning the head to any given note.

I do use your quarter and ruler method for getting the head tension close. Thanks for that tip.

steve davis - Posted - 09/17/2012:  13:09:04

I use 1/4 turns and don't break anything.

On a G# head I start at the neck and turn each nut 1/4 turn in order until I come around to the other side of the heel for an A head.



If the head were already tuned to B,I wouldn't add 1/4 turn to go to C...I'd add 1/8s twice,but I don't run my heads that tight.



G to G#,G# to A, A to Bb i just go once around in 1/4s.

I done it this way on my '29 hardware for over 10 years and it works good.

Edited by - steve davis on 09/17/2012 13:09:48

steve davis - Posted - 09/17/2012:  14:35:14

I have a real easy time of seeing 45 and 90 degrees of handle movement.
More like the compass dial that I'm so used to,I suppose.

Corwyn - Posted - 09/17/2012:  15:37:02

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

I've found 1/4 turn on the hook nuts to be worth 1/2 step on the head note.

Pretty tidy how that is,imo.

---

steve davis - Posted - 09/17/2012:  15:52:13

Right now the bulk of my studies have been with the Remo .007 frosted heads.

I have been getting the same results whether I use my old heads(70s and onward) or new Remos.



It's why my quarter/straightedge is a viable solution for putting head tension into free numbers.

The 5 star head at .009 reaches 1/2 step head note at about 9/10 of a 1/4 turn.



The thicker 5 Star gets to its next note a touch quicker.

I have tested about 15 of my heads from the different time periods and have concluded that there is great consistency this area.

I know this to be true in my tests because I am very good at hearing the head note and keep careful records on how much I turn the wrench and what the note is.

People that have tried it have related to me how it also works as I describe for them.



Instant comparisons.

Do you have a Remo or Weatherking 11" head?

When you tune it to G# and then tighten the hook nuts 1/4 turn do you get an A head?

Edited by - steve davis on 09/17/2012 16:01:23

steve davis - Posted - 09/17/2012:  16:18:19

In the G to C range is where I've checked so far.

Pick1949 - Posted - 09/19/2012:  22:51:06

You know... Somebody ought to post a soundfile of a couple or so different banjos being "tapped" with no source note afterwards or before the "tap"... and let all who wish to do so list in order what they hear in each "tap" and what they think the heads is tuned to. Id really like to see if anybody's ear hears different notes... They can sit with tuner or a piano or their own banjo to help them hear it if they want... but the recordings should not have any other note being made other than the actual head note (to help save some biased answers... but then again some people would probably go with what others say, kind of following the crowd, even if they couldnt hear the note....) But this would be interesting I think.

Pick1949 - Posted - 09/19/2012:  23:02:57

What about tapping a archtop?? Same rule of thumb apply there too? And also If a man likes to hear a head tuned to A on his flatheads then what would it take to get that same tension on a raised head if he decides to use that for his "starting point"? I would surely figure that the same tension on a flathead's head and the same on a raised head head would give you 2 different notes... because your vibrating surface is smaller on the raised head... but Ive been wrong before. In other words, I figure an A on a flathead is not the same A on a raised head. I also wonder about the amount of wood left on the end of a banjo's heel (which effects where the bridge sits/sags the head with pressure from the strings) would effect anything. Interesting stuff here...

Claw Hammered - Posted - 09/20/2012:  04:22:30

OK newbie question. feel free to laugh. Can you tune a head with an electronic tuner by tapping?  I have not tried so I just dont know. Manufacturer says tune to G or G#

steve davis - Posted - 09/20/2012:  05:16:07

Hearing the tapped note takes practice.

Same as hearing what note a guitar,mandolin or fiddle top taps.



People that haven't learned how to hear it like to say hearing the tapped note is subjective or a myth.

I spent most of a week learning to hear the note.Kind of frustrating at times.

There have been many heated arguments between people that can and can't hear the tapped head note.

That's why I connected the actual depth of the head depression at certain tensions...hard numbers attached to the tone of the banjo.



The archtop with a 5 Star head and a tension of a quarter under a 10" straightedge gives a C head note.

I haven't rigged up an archtop with a Remo head,yet.The Remo is .002 thinner than the 5 Star.

The Remo on a flathead raises the head note a half step in musical tone per 1/4 turn on the nuts.

The 5 Star head raises the head note a half step with a slightly less than 1/4 turn on the nuts.



No,a tuner won't read a banjo or drum head note truthfully.

It is simply matched by ear to another note.

Edited by - steve davis on 09/20/2012 05:17:26

Banjophobic - Posted - 09/20/2012:  07:14:47

quote:

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Originally posted by Pick1949

What about tapping a archtop??

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A flathead and archop, tuned to the same tightness, will tapped notes about 1/2 step apart. So a tapped "G" note on a flathead will register a "G#" at the same tension on both. Its a result  of the smaller vibrating surface area of the head on an archtop.

wuzapicker - Posted - 09/20/2012:  09:06:33

Question: Does one Tap Tune the head before bridge and strings are added and brought to tension? or after?

It would seem to me that the dynamic loading the bridge places on the head modifies the head tension and thus the tap note of the head.

It is my observation that dependent upon where I tap the head in relation to the loaded bridge, the tap note will vary slightly indicating the tension is not uniform around the loaded bridge. This I think accounts for some of the wolf tones we hear while playing with different areas of the head resonating with the strings at different frequencies. Its all part of that complex tone we attribute to banjos.

steve davis - Posted - 09/20/2012:  10:16:48

I tap with the bridge in place and the strings tuned to pitch.

Also same for measuring with coin/straightedge.

I do my work with the banjo in playing mode.



I get the same tapped note anywhere on the head.

I believe this is because the head is a singular piece of mylar and acts on the average rather than specific tension of the hooks.

The hooks' forces are averaged over the singular hoop,also.

Edited by - steve davis on 09/20/2012 10:17:53

Banjophobic - Posted - 09/20/2012:  10:26:49

quote:

---

Originally posted by wuzapicker

Question: Does one Tap Tune the head before bridge and strings are added and brought to tension? or after?



It would seem to me that the dynamic loading the bridge places on the head modifies the head tension and thus the tap note of the head.



It is my observation that dependent upon where I tap the head in relation to the loaded bridge, the tap note will vary slightly indicating the tension is not uniform around the loaded bridge. This I think accounts for some of the wolf tones we hear while playing with different areas of the head resonating with the strings at different frequencies. Its all part of that complex tone we attribute to banjos.

---

One of my mentors Clarence Hall, showed me a spot about and inch os so from the tonering/tension hoop edge. I found it to be a good spot to tap. The head being under 'load' is how you should tap.

jwoods - Posted - 09/20/2012:  12:43:19

Some people recommend muting the strings and tapping on top of the bridge with a pencil eraser.

slou92 - Posted - 09/21/2012:  02:36:46

The cleartune app for iPhone will usually register the note but you have to ignore some erroneous readings. I demonstrated this for a friend. We took a head from f# up to B and the app followed pretty well.

steve davis - Posted - 09/21/2012:  04:55:29

Always mute the strings when checking head note.

Possom - Posted - 09/21/2012:  05:24:40

The note is there you just have to listen for it. I have a hard time hearing it. I sat in front banjophobic and watched him tap the head of a banjo and heard it clear as day....a few weeks later after allowing it to settle it needed tightening and i could not hear what note it was at. Recently i tightened up on it and thumped it after tightening a 1/4 turn (somebody else tapped and said it was at G# ish) and i voila i hear it plain as day. A clear A note. Maybe a shade above.

As silly and low tech as it sounds i'll give steve davis his due and say the ruler and quarter trick , although ive yet to try, may be the cheapest and effective way to get a baseline for repeatable results. And the 1/4 turn technique seems pretty close to accurate given recent firsthand results

steve davis - Posted - 09/21/2012:  07:15:25

Some of the answers to life's persistent questions are very simple.

Cottonmouth - Posted - 09/22/2012:  06:56:59

Are we to assume that you are speaking of a head on an 11" rim only?

Edited by - Cottonmouth on 09/22/2012 07:02:04

steve davis - Posted - 09/22/2012:  07:10:31

Yes,mostly 11" Remo,but I noticed on my archtop w/5 Star head a bit less than 90 degrees on the nuts made the next 1/2 step note.
A thicker head on 9 1/2 diameter both giving quicker change.
I was in the process of getting archtop numbers with different combinations,but that banjo went to California.

Slick Salmon - Posted - 10/24/2012:  09:50:52

quote:

---

Originally posted by Claw Hammered

OK newbie question. feel free to laugh. Can you tune a head with an electronic tuner by tapping?  I have not tried so I just dont know. Manufacturer says tune to G or G#

---

Some tuners will hear the note if the tuner is on the "mic" setting, and you put it very close to the head.  Mine does.

Thor - Posted - 10/24/2012:  14:39:01

I got my current banjo in 2004. I tightened the head a few times over the first month or two (it was custom built brand new). Since then, I've tweaked the nuts once.

Once in 8 years. Sounds great to me.

Do people really mess with the head tension on their banjos as much as it seems from these recent threads?

Or changes heads like they change skivvies?

ps: the outside relative humidity where I live goes between 40% and 90% over the year.

steve davis - Posted - 10/24/2012:  15:14:53

I keep my head at the same tension all the time.

As the head note gets down toward G and below,it starts to resist cutting it with the other instruments.

I also like the idea of keeping the pressure on the tonering constantly the same.

It helps my banjo sound and play the same all the time and be very stable.



I put a new head on last summer and by hearing the head note I could chase its break-in period by touching it back up to A almost daily for 2 weeks or so.

It hasn't changed in a few weeks,now and should be fine for a long period of time.

I like an A head(quarter under a straightedge tension,but when I'm just messing around at home I sometimes tune the head down to G (penny and a dime under the 10" straightedge) to hear those tubby lows that don't play out easily.

Edited by - steve davis on 10/24/2012 15:25:04

vlawson - Posted - 10/24/2012:  16:53:49

quote:

---

Originally posted by Corwyn

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

I've found 1/4 turn on the hook nuts to be worth 1/2 step on the head note.

Pretty tidy how that is,imo.

 

The 1/4 turn works on my banjo for every 1/4 turn my head not changes 1/2 step.

---

 

I find it hard to conceive that this is uniform for all banjos, all heads, and for all intervals. How many banjos and heads have you tried it on, over what ranges?

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Edited by - vlawson on 10/24/2012 16:55:38