R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 05/30/2012:  17:04:20

I don't see being a "purist" or "traditionalist" as limiting. It is merely being creative within established parameters that define a genre and allow it to continue. Taken as a whole, what we now define as Old-Time Music was historically just as, if not more inclusive than country, rock, jazz, or whatever.



Various musical fusions may have the benefit of leading people toward the root sources. Typically, once the ear becomes accustomed, the listener comes to realize that those root sources are more real and powerful than the mish-mash concocted to sell records to folks who either don't know or don't care.



Though I understand the financial considerations, I think the real tragedy is when the musicians who have dedicated their lives to the true tradition are passed over for a commercial musician with name recognition. Folks like WoodChuck, RG, Coonskin, Zepp, Whyteman, Mojo Monk, Banjo Pogo, Uncle Clawhammer, et al *are* the folks that deserve to be, and should be on those Hollywood soundtracks. Maybe if they were given the chance the masses would like the music as it is. Maybe all those regular folks deserve more credit than those Hollywood music producers are giving them.

Edited by - R.D. Lunceford on 05/30/2012 17:07:24

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 05/30/2012:  17:36:54

I think it takes a special sort of person to subordinate his ego to the furtherance of a traditional music, but in the end he becomes part of something greater and more lasting than the latest commercial music aberration.  It's not for everyone.

Places like the CH forum on BHO tend to attract a larger percentage of traditionalists by virtue the instrument and the music.  In the larger world though, we are comparatively rare, yet even in this out of the way haven those who decry tradition are here to criticize what is a rare and respectful approach to a valuable musical legacy.

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 05/30/2012:  17:44:35

quote:

---

Originally posted by JTRoberts

The great musicians are always inclusive, and they are not purists...  It is the purists and OT banjo police which hasten the demise...  He is not blinded by the myopia of purity.

---

 How do you reconcile this with your admiration for, and advocacy of Dwight Diller's approach?

JTRoberts - Posted - 05/30/2012:  20:01:20

Easy question easy answer. Never met a human being that I agreed with 100%

ChuckS - Posted - 05/30/2012:  20:36:20

Awesome clip! Thanks for sharing.

whyteman - Posted - 05/30/2012:  23:37:59

I'm no T-Bone and my wife is not a Brunette, but we are making our own Old Time music soundtracks to our own little films about our beloved Ozark region. Even if Hollywood does not beat a path to our door and the masses have no use for our "product", we'll keep doing these projects for the love of the music and the places we enjoy.

youtube.com/watch?v=9dMpgmhkg30

Don

mbuk06 - Posted - 05/31/2012:  00:36:35

quote:

---

Originally posted by R.D. Lunceford

I don't see being a "purist" or "traditionalist" as limiting. It is merely being creative within established parameters that define a genre and allow it to continue. Taken as a whole, what we now define as Old-Time Music was historically just as, if not more inclusive than country, rock, jazz, or whatever.



Various musical fusions may have the benefit of leading people toward the root sources. Typically, once the ear becomes accustomed, the listener comes to realize that those root sources are more real and powerful than the mish-mash concocted to sell records to folks who either don't know or don't care.

 

---

Great post and as one who enjoys learning the history and sources of OT songs too I agree wholeheartedly. But having one foot in another creative area I'm constantly drawn back to the question how does (or can) new material become an accepted part of this whole? I hope this isn't mis-construed as ill-informed or direspectful. My heart beats toward the traditional side much like others on here and is what drew me to OT. However my heart is also with 'traditonal in spirit' Those 'old dead guys' often included songs about issues and events that had contemporary relevance: Farming, railway, war, the list is endless. Lives and circumstances change but the instinct to make music that reflects day to day life doesn't. Where are the songs about the Kennedy assassination, Moon landing, or the Challenger tragedy etc? I'm puzzled not so much for now but in say 100 years from now. Without continually adding to the canon surely there will be a 'gap' in the process and OT will ​​be increasingly seen as 'historical' and set in amber. Classically trained musicians play work Baroque and Beethoven but they also include work by Aaron Copland and Benjamin Britten. A genuine question...

plunknplinkntwang - Posted - 05/31/2012:  05:19:17

quote:

---

Originally posted by mbuk06

---

Great post and as one who enjoys learning the history and sources of OT songs too I agree wholeheartedly. But having one foot in another creative area I'm constantly drawn back to the question how does (or can) new material become an accepted part of this whole? I hope this isn't mis-construed as ill-informed or direspectful. My heart beats toward the traditional side much like others on here and is what drew me to OT. However my heart is also with 'traditonal in spirit' Those 'old dead guys' often included songs about issues and events that had contemporary relevance: Farming, railway, war, the list is endless. Lives and circumstances change but the instinct to make music that reflects day to day life doesn't. Where are the songs about the Kennedy assassination, Moon landing, or the Challenger tragedy etc? I'm puzzled not so much for now but in say 100 years from now. Without continually adding to the canon surely there will be a 'gap' in the process and OT will ​​be increasingly seen as 'historical' and set in amber. Classically trained musicians play work Baroque and Beethoven but they also include work by Aaron Copland and Benjamin Britten. A genuine question...

---

 I'm always getting those two mixed up, which one wrote 'Cluck Ol' Hen'?  

erikforgod - Posted - 05/31/2012:  05:24:43

quote:

---

Originally posted by whyteman

I'm no T-Bone and my wife is not a Brunette, but we are making our own Old Time music soundtracks to our own little films about our beloved Ozark region. Even if Hollywood does not beat a path to our door and the masses have no use for our "product", we'll keep doing these projects for the love of the music and the places we enjoy.

youtube.com/watch?v=9dMpgmhkg30

Don

---

great video...I just subscribed to your you-tube channel.

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 05/31/2012:  08:06:15

quote:

---

Originally posted by JTRoberts

Easy question easy answer. Never met a human being that I agreed with 100%

---

 Nor have any of us, though it seems that your disagreement with "purists" is approaching 100%.

You seem such a fan of Diller who to my mind is the ultimate self-proclaimed purist, yet the lines of yours I quoted seemed antagonistic in the extreme to purists.  I missed how you could be such a fan of Diller, yet accuse "purists" of hastening the demise of OT music.

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 05/31/2012:  08:52:24

quote:

---

Originally posted by mbuk06

quote:

---

Originally posted by R.D. Lunceford

I don't see being a "purist" or "traditionalist" as limiting. It is merely being creative within established parameters that define a genre and allow it to continue. Taken as a whole, what we now define as Old-Time Music was historically just as, if not more inclusive than country, rock, jazz, or whatever.



Various musical fusions may have the benefit of leading people toward the root sources. Typically, once the ear becomes accustomed, the listener comes to realize that those root sources are more real and powerful than the mish-mash concocted to sell records to folks who either don't know or don't care.

 

---

Great post and as one who enjoys learning the history and sources of OT songs too I agree wholeheartedly. But having one foot in another creative area I'm constantly drawn back to the question how does (or can) new material become an accepted part of this whole? I hope this isn't mis-construed as ill-informed or direspectful. My heart beats toward the traditional side much like others on here and is what drew me to OT. However my heart is also with 'traditonal in spirit' Those 'old dead guys' often included songs about issues and events that had contemporary relevance: Farming, railway, war, the list is endless. Lives and circumstances change but the instinct to make music that reflects day to day life doesn't. Where are the songs about the Kennedy assassination, Moon landing, or the Challenger tragedy etc? I'm puzzled not so much for now but in say 100 years from now. Without continually adding to the canon surely there will be a 'gap' in the process and OT will ​​be increasingly seen as 'historical' and set in amber. Classically trained musicians play work Baroque and Beethoven but they also include work by Aaron Copland and Benjamin Britten. A genuine question...

---

>... how does (or can) new material become an accepted part of this whole?

Traditional music is not a static entity.  It does evolve and change, albeit slowly.  New tunes, songs, and even instruments find their way in.  The acceptance of such things is determined by a widespread mass consensus over time.

>...However my heart is also with 'traditonal in spirit'

To me, that is one of the keys to traditional music remaining vital.  "Traditional in spirit" is traditional in my view.  For me, "traditional" is essentially the the approach one takes to the music as embodied by style.  Repertoire plays a large part, but one can write say, a song about the Kennedy assassination that would conform to the traditional style.  As an example, new fiddle tunes are regularly written that are indistinguishable from their 200 year-old counterparts.  

>...Those 'old dead guys' often included songs about issues and events that had contemporary relevance: Farming, railway, war, the list is endless. Lives and circumstances change but the instinct to make music that reflects day to day life doesn't. Where are the songs about the Kennedy assassination, Moon landing, or the Challenger tragedy etc? I'm puzzled not so much for now but in say 100 years from now. Without continually adding to the canon surely there will be a 'gap' in the process and OT will ​​be increasingly seen as 'historical' and set in amber. 

Probably a question better addressed by Sociology or Anthropology.  For one thing, songs used to be a method for passing news and preserving history.  Not so much anymore.  It also seems to me that in pop music, the lyrics seem to be written most often from a first person perspective rather than in narrative form.  This obviously does not lend itself to recording events.  

Additionally, the vast majority of modern lyrics seemed to be concerned with "love" in one capacity or another.  The focus is much more on the singer/songwriter and his feelings.  This is one thing that separates the "traditional" musician whose focus is other-directed from the musical "innovator" whose focus is often on himself, his feelings, his message, his desire to showcase his creativity, etc.

You are right.  Past decades have seen very few songs about current events in the OT sphere.  Though old songs have much value,  I think traditional music's relevance to modern day life is in those timeless things it continues to communicate. The instrumental music which communicates through gut emotion rather than language, politics, concepts, etc., bypasses those temporal filters and is more and more the vehicle for the tradition.  Of course, many traditional songs communicate what is timeless in all of us as well.

A love of history and respect for tradition is also a big factor for many traditional musicians.  As such, their interest often lies primarily in performing and preserving the traditional songs and tunes.  Innovation is not their primary interest.  

JTRoberts - Posted - 05/31/2012:  08:56:31

RD:

"Antagonist in the extreme to purists".

A fine example of projection.

Look here is the deal. I start threads and post videos to get folks thinking and talking. However, the reaction is one of disdain. Only one person on this thread (Mojo Monk), has thanked me for what I am trying to do. Purity creates rigidity. It makes folks have to ride at the back of the bus. Flexibility makes the heart sing and be gracious. Be as pure as you want, I got no quarrel with you or anyone else on this forum.

erikforgod - Posted - 05/31/2012:  09:30:50

quote:

---

Originally posted by JTRoberts

RD:



"Antagonist in the extreme to purists".



A fine example of projection.



Look here is the deal. I start threads and post videos to get folks thinking and talking. However, the reaction is one of disdain. Only one person on this thread (Mojo Monk), has thanked me for what I am trying to do. Purity creates rigidity. It makes folks have to ride at the back of the bus. Flexibility makes the heart sing and be gracious. Be as pure as you want, I got no quarrel with you or anyone else on this forum.

---

By the way, for the record...I said I didnt see anything wrong with the video or what you were trying to say..perse...I just personally didnt like the way the guys voice sounded. Also..I may be a purist in some sense of the word but I would never condone making people sit in the back of the bus. Can you also choose innuendos other than ones with racist connotations for making your point, it really is uneccessary...so please. 

mbuk06 - Posted - 05/31/2012:  09:34:10

quote:

---

Originally posted by JTRoberts

RD:



"Antagonist in the extreme to purists".



A fine example of projection.



Look here is the deal. I start threads and post videos to get folks thinking and talking. However, the reaction is one of disdain. Only one person on this thread (Mojo Monk), has thanked me for what I am trying to do. Purity creates rigidity. It makes folks have to ride at the back of the bus. Flexibility makes the heart sing and be gracious. Be as pure as you want, I got no quarrel with you or anyone else on this forum.

---

 JT - with respect, I don't think anyone is replying with disdain to your comments and I for one appreciate an interesting debate on banjo/OT related subjects. But just to take the example above you infer that a purist approach (whatever that may be) is akin to racism that caused folks sit at the back of a bus. Then you imply the previous poster is a purist but that is ok with you. The implication is clear whether you mean it or not.

It's then hardly surprising you get contradicted. There's a world of difference between expressing strong or even controversial points of view and being offensive. 

mbuk06 - Posted - 05/31/2012:  09:54:07

RD - Thanks for taking the time to answer my question so fully. I can see how any change inevitably has to be a consensus in a form that is not essentially ego-driven or individualistic in nature and that change in itself is a slow and hard-to-define process. Clearly the core of OT songs have a simple beauty and are about  timeless subjects that will never lose their relevance. But your reply got me trying to think of a current example of a 'new song' and all I could come up with is Old Crow's 'Wagonwheel'. For some reason this song can infuriate some traditionalists but it does seem to be an example of a widely-known modern song that started outside OT and Bluegrass that is now  played at many jams along with the old favourites. I'm interested to read other member's take on this too...

JTRoberts - Posted - 05/31/2012:  09:58:34

Erik for god, and mbko6:

Purity leads to extremism like or not, and racism is just one of many forms that it can take. How could you possibly not understand that?

Mbuk6:

"no one is replying with disdain."

Ha. Perhaps you and have a different meaning for this word.

erikforgod - Posted - 05/31/2012:  10:12:12

quote:

---

Originally posted by JTRoberts

Erik for god, and mbko6:



Purity leads to extremism like or not, and racism is just one of many forms that it can take. How could you possibly not understand that?



Mbuk6:



"no one is replying with disdain."



Ha. Perhaps you and have a different meaning for this word.

---

JT - We were talking about music not racism or social issues first, lets keep this on topic so we can all continue to enjoy it.. ..

Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 05/31/2012:  10:50:48

quote:

---

Originally posted by mbuk06

RD - Thanks for taking the time to answer my question so fully. I can see how any change inevitably has to be a consensus in a form that is not essentially ego-driven or individualistic in nature and that change in itself is a slow and hard-to-define process. Clearly the core of OT songs have a simple beauty and are about  timeless subjects that will never lose their relevance. But your reply got me trying to think of a current example of a 'new song' and all I could come up with is Old Crow's 'Wagonwheel'. For some reason this song can infuriate some traditionalists but it does seem to be an example of a widely-known modern song that started outside OT and Bluegrass that is now  played at many jams along with the old favourites. I'm interested to read other member's take on this too...

---

I'm pretty sure Wagonwheel was actually written by Bob Dylan. And in his early days, I think he produced quite a few songs that fit exactly the pattern you seem to be looking for. I'm thinking of songs like "The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll", "The Ballad of Hollis Brown", "Oxford Town", "Only a Pawn in Their Game" "North Country Blues" and others of that ilk.

mbuk06 - Posted - 05/31/2012:  11:19:56

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marc Nerenberg

quote:

---

 I'm pretty sure Wagonwheel was actually written by Bob Dylan. And in his early days, I think he produced quite a few songs that fit exactly the pattern you seem to be looking for. I'm thinking of songs like "The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll", "The Ballad of Hollis Brown", "Oxford Town", "Only a Pawn in Their Game" "North Country Blues" and others of that ilk.

---

Marc, I think you're right that Dylan wrote it. I'm not sure I'm looking to play new songs especially. Just that I'm curious about the process and the prevailing attitude to 'new' songs. I think this curiosity stems from experiencing some people's negative reaction to a song like 'Wagonwheel' at jams. That song is just one example. I honestly can't figure what the fuss is about. It can't be because songs like this aren't musically 'sophisticated' because as we all know many OT standards are very simple, rhythmic A and B part dance tunes. Also the lyrics seem to fit in at jams. Most friends I know enjoy playing it. It doesn't take up much time and we move on to the old familiar OT tunes. So what is it? Is it a form of 'snobbery'? if it is doesn't that run counter to the unpretentious, down-to-earth spirit of OT music? Again...I'm not seeking to cause an argument, only gain some perspective and hear what others have to say.

Edited by - mbuk06 on 05/31/2012 11:22:22

pastorharry - Posted - 05/31/2012:  11:29:45

Dylan wrote the chorus a long time back...Ketch finished it up with some verses....good song. I was picking with some friends at an open mic and when my brake came for Wagon Wheel,my skin head had totally collapsed from the humidity and the banjo had in a moment become unplayable..."Banjo FAIL....LOL!!"
So much for being a purist, I went back to mylar ;^).

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 05/31/2012:  12:34:33

quote:

---

Originally posted by JTRoberts

RD:



"Antagonist in the extreme to purists".



A fine example of projection.



Look here is the deal. I start threads and post videos to get folks thinking and talking. However, the reaction is one of disdain. Only one person on this thread (Mojo Monk), has thanked me for what I am trying to do. Purity creates rigidity. It makes folks have to ride at the back of the bus. Flexibility makes the heart sing and be gracious. Be as pure as you want, I got no quarrel with you or anyone else on this forum.

---

 >A fine example of projection.

"...great musicians...are not purists"

"...It is the purists...who hasten the demise (of OT music) "

...purists are blind and myopic...

Your words.  What is being projected onto you other than your own atagonistic statements regarding "purists"?

>Look here is the deal. 

OK.  Lay it out for me.

>I start threads and post videos to get folks thinking and talking. However, the reaction is one of disdain.

Makes it sound like there was none of that going on here before you began posting, and that is disdainful.

>Only one person on this thread (Mojo Monk), has thanked me for what I am trying to do.

Seriously?  You don't feel you've received adequate thanks for your efforts to enlighten us?

>Purity creates rigidity. It makes folks have to ride at the back of the bus.

How can you expect to enlighten the "blind" and "myopic" when you spin off into the outer reaches of the solar system with an analogy like that?  The concept of purity that preserves a valuable musical legacy is not the same concept of purity that seeks to preserve a racial inequity that forces certain citizens to the back of the bus or into concentration camps.  You're only playing games with words here and showing your disdain for the rest of us.  

>Flexibility makes the heart sing and be gracious.

You should tape that to your keyboard as a reminder for the next time you criticize folks for approaching the music from a different direction than you approve of. 

>Be as pure as you want, I got no quarrel with you or anyone else on this forum. 

Thanks for your permission, though I thought we were having a conversation not a quarrel.  You seem to be quite annoyed anytime anyone asks you to clarify your position, so maybe we were quarreling (in your mind) and I just hadn't realized it.  And by the way, feel as free to be as trailblazing as you want... I got no quarrel with you either.

ScottK - Posted - 05/31/2012:  13:04:05

quote:

---

Originally posted by mbuk06



... I'm constantly drawn back to the question how does (or can) new material become an accepted part of this whole? I hope this isn't mis-construed as ill-informed or direspectful. My heart beats toward the traditional side much like others on here and is what drew me to OT. However my heart is also with 'traditonal in spirit' Those 'old dead guys' often included songs about issues and events that had contemporary relevance: Farming, railway, war, the list is endless. Lives and circumstances change but the instinct to make music that reflects day to day life doesn't. Where are the songs about the Kennedy assassination, Moon landing, or the Challenger tragedy etc? I'm puzzled not so much for now but in say 100 years from now. Without continually adding to the canon surely there will be a 'gap' in the process and OT will ​​be increasingly seen as 'historical' and set in amber. Classically trained musicians play work Baroque and Beethoven but they also include work by Aaron Copland and Benjamin Britten. A genuine question...

---

Seems to be a pretty organic process in my limited experience, which is more with old time fiddle tunes rather than with songs.  When I started venturing out to old time jams around 2006 I encountered a few modern tunes that were already in circulation here in Portland, Oregon:  Roscoe's Gone, Winder Slide, Nixon's Farewell, Waiting for Nancy.  Then a few years ago Jim Childress' Road to Malvern showed up on the Light and Hitch CD which was popular around here and quickly made it into the local rotation.  Earl White used to live here in Portland and influenced a lot of local fiddlers through both jams and lessons.  One of the tunes he plays is Chips and Sauce that he said Ira Bernstein wrote.  Chips and Sauce was popular in festival jams around here last year.  Nettle Honey just included it on their new This Shed is Bound for Glory CD, so Chips and Sauce may gain wider exposure/popularity now.   My son Erik is an Irish trad fiddler who plays a little old time and has a good ear for catchy tunes.  He started playing John Herrmann's Cherokee Trail from Songs from the Mountain and that one is starting to catch on around here.  Last year he also started playing Eric Merrill's Hell and Grace from The Western Star.  I like playing it on banjo with him so much that I keep calling for it at jams and festivals, so it's bound to catch on.    The Canote Brothers' Obama's March to the White House off their Dogs in the Dishes CD is another recent tune that's making it into the rotation around here.  

I don't have as much experience with modern songs with lyrics making it into the current old time repertoire, because I'm not that much of a singer and mostly go to fiddle jams.  But Si Kahn's Aragon Mill from his New Wood CD comes to mind.  I think The Old Time Herald even did an article a year or two back discussing how that song had come to be considered a traditional song.

As for Wagon Wheel, I like it and have played it in jams before.  I don't label it, I just play it. 

Scott

ScottK - Posted - 05/31/2012:  13:40:19

quote:

---

Originally posted by mbuk06



Those 'old dead guys' often included songs about issues and events that had contemporary relevance: Farming, railway, war, the list is endless. Lives and circumstances change but the instinct to make music that reflects day to day life doesn't. Where are the songs about the Kennedy assassination, Moon landing, or the Challenger tragedy etc? I'm puzzled not so much for now but in say 100 years from now. Without continually adding to the canon surely there will be a 'gap' in the process and OT will ​​be increasingly seen as 'historical' and set in amber. 

---

I don't think The Brainstormers are going to win a Grammy for this one, but lest we fear a gap in the historical record with respect to the economic distress of recent years, here's them performing All the Same:

Scott

JTRoberts - Posted - 05/31/2012:  13:45:10

OT banjo is an unintentionally closed community. Folks are expected (expressly or implied) to be plunky, play over the scoop, be round peak, don't be too strummy, and stuff the pot with towels, sponges and teddy bears. Those who disagree, rock the boat. Either you know it is so or you do not, and nothing I can say will convince anyone. A perfect example of exclusion is Pat Costello, a fine frailing banjo player, who has taught and inspired more folks to make music with the banjo than perhaps this entire forum combined. He had been banned multiple times, because he is strong tongued in defending himself from relentless attack. He is considered "not old time, and just a folk musician."

Disclaimer: I don't know Pat Costello, and have never spoken with him.

The old time banjo community would thrive if it was more inclusive which is the thrust of this thread.

pastorharry - Posted - 05/31/2012:  14:14:04

JTROBERTS said;"A perfect example of exclusion is Pat Costello, a fine frailing banjo player, who has taught and inspired more folks to make music with the banjo than perhaps this entire forum combined. He had been banned multiple times, because he is strong tongued in defending himself from relentless attack."

JT, I respectfully disagree, first off, you were not there to see that it was this forum which had to defend itself against Mr. Costello's relentless attacks and strong tongue, an attitude which began on the banjo-L many years ago, spread to this forum and continues to this day on his own forum bashing both individuals on this forum and the forum as a whole. I can only hope that you do not take up his banner and follow in his footsteps here. Diversity is fine, discussion is great, objection is tolerable, but personal attacks are just not cool.

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 05/31/2012:  14:40:33

quote:

---

Originally posted by JTRoberts

OT banjo is an unintentionally closed community. Folks are expected (expressly or implied) to be plunky, play over the scoop, be round peak, don't be too strummy, and stuff the pot with towels, sponges and teddy bears. Those who disagree, rock the boat. Either you know it is so or you do not, and nothing I can say will convince anyone. A perfect example of exclusion is Pat Costello, a fine frailing banjo player, who has taught and inspired more folks to make music with the banjo than perhaps this entire forum combined. He had been banned multiple times, because he is strong tongued in defending himself from relentless attack. He is considered "not old time, and just a folk musician."



Disclaimer: I don't know Pat Costello, and have never spoken with him.



The old time banjo community would thrive if it was more inclusive which is the thrust of this thread.

---

 I'll agree that there certainly are trends in OT banjo, but isn't that the hallmark of a living (not dying) tradition?  Round Peak is currently popular as is playing over the scoop and a predilection for a plunky sound.   Those preferences are not exclusive within the community, but are very widespread, and will be argued for by their devotees, but not normally from the standpoint that everything else is wrong.

Folks are free and welcome to disagree as often and as much as they like.  This is a discussion forum though, and arguing and disagreeing are what we do here.  If you dislike having your positions debated you should be giving lectures where your listeners are required to remain silent.

In the several years I have been a BHO member, the only thing I have seen that will get someone excluded is the inability to carry on a civil conversation.  As a matter of fact,  I would offer that in a few cases, the moderators have been lenient to a fault.  

plunknplinkntwang - Posted - 05/31/2012:  14:49:58

quote:

---

Originally posted by mbuk06

Just that I'm curious about the process and the prevailing attitude to 'new' songs. 

---

 Ashokan Farewell is one that dates all the way back to 1982 - youtube.com/watch?v=_M4Ah7ZeKY8

Whether it's been accepted because of it's association with a the documentary 'the Civil War' or because it feels old time enough is an interesting question

erikforgod - Posted - 05/31/2012:  15:01:15

quote:

---

Originally posted by JTRoberts

OT banjo is an unintentionally closed community. Folks are expected (expressly or implied) to be plunky, play over the scoop, be round peak, don't be too strummy, and stuff the pot with towels, sponges and teddy bears. Those who disagree, rock the boat. Either you know it is so or you do not, and nothing I can say will convince anyone. A perfect example of exclusion is Pat Costello, a fine frailing banjo player, who has taught and inspired more folks to make music with the banjo than perhaps this entire forum combined. He had been banned multiple times, because he is strong tongued in defending himself from relentless attack. He is considered "not old time, and just a folk musician."



Disclaimer: I don't know Pat Costello, and have never spoken with him.



The old time banjo community would thrive if it was more inclusive which is the thrust of this thread.

---

You know it seems at times as if you have a personal vendetta against what you perceive as the "injustices of the BHO" as being a springboard for Round-Peak banjo excluding any other form of banjo playing or style. This is simply unfair and dead wrong. In case if you havent noticed, you may actually be surprised by the amount of folks who enjoy this forum "who do enjoy your point of views and musical approaches to the banjo. If Round-Peak banjo playing happens to be a current playing approach that is deemed as popular by many members... why do you care? That is certainly not "their fault" nor is it the fault of the forum and frankly is an insult to the gentlemen who created this forum. 

I have not heard ONE member not "ONE" on this forum forcing their opinions or their viewpoints upon you or anybody about anything...so stop your whining. To characterize this forum as such is simply wrong and unfair. Nor have I heard one person say or even "imply" that you are expected to play a certain style of banjo ie "Round-Peak or any other style nor stuff your pot with teddy bears or play over scoops. If some members have strong dissenting opinions contrary to yours...why do you care? Whats your problem? It happens to all of us all the time...so whats the big deal? Why do you inject this into every thread you contribute to? I dont know maybe you want to be a victim or a "martyr" and are hoping to stir things enough to get your self kicked off the forum or banned as if it would be some kinda of a badge of honor or something, to be banned from the BHO...who knows. Mr Costello should have never been brought up in this thread, nor did he or does he have anything to do with what we are or were discussing in this thread. If you want to question the motives and the judgements of the administrators as to why they chose to ban him or any others from the forum ask them yourself, but dont unfairly characterize this forum nor the members here including myself who happen to enjoy it because a certain percentage happens to play a style and you dont. If they gripe about the fact that you like Dwight Diller or dont drop-thumb or like Jack Stripe or Jack Black...who cares? why do you care? 

Edited by - erikforgod on 05/31/2012 15:10:02

plunknplinkntwang - Posted - 05/31/2012:  15:08:48

quote: 

---

Originally posted by JTRoberts

OT banjo is an unintentionally closed community. Folks are expected (expressly or implied) to be plunky, play over the scoop, be round peak, don't be too strummy, and stuff the pot with towels, sponges and teddy bears. Those who disagree, rock the boat. Either you know it is so or you do not, and nothing I can say will convince anyone. A perfect example of exclusion is Pat Costello, a fine frailing banjo player, who has taught and inspired more folks to make music with the banjo than perhaps this entire forum combined. He had been banned multiple times, because he is strong tongued in defending himself from relentless attack. He is considered "not old time, and just a folk musician."



Disclaimer: I don't know Pat Costello, and have never spoken with him.



The old time banjo community would thrive if it was more inclusive which is the thrust of this thread.

---

1. 
   The BHO accepts and gives support to those with no experience, no talent, and even Brits so it isn't that closed a community


2. 
   There's a whole spectrum of sounds represented and respected as personal preference


3. 
   Playing over the scoop, over the head, at the bridge each is personal preference


4. 
   Strum, pick, wear thimbles stuff the pot, use nylon or steel strings, again all personal preferences

Lots of scope for personal preference and expression and lots of supportive people on here.  Sure there are outspoken critics too but they are simply voicing their opinion and trying to give their best advice; and as with any gift it's up to you whether you accept it or not.

rgds

Chris

Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 05/31/2012:  15:33:41

quote:

---

Originally posted by JTRoberts

OT banjo is an unintentionally closed community. Folks are expected (expressly or implied) to be plunky, play over the scoop, be round peak, don't be too strummy, and stuff the pot with towels, sponges and teddy bears. Those who disagree, rock the boat.

...



The old time banjo community would thrive if it was more inclusive which is the thrust of this thread.

---

While there is a certain degree of "inward-looking"ness to the OT banjo community, based upon my personal experience, I do think that your statement that it is "closed" is quite an overstatement.

I myself have a long standing and deep knowledge of and respect for Old Time banjo styles - but I am far from an old time player. Only a small amount of my repertoire consists of Old Time music per se - though I have been told (here) that I bring a real old time feeling to most of what I play.

I write a lot of songs some of them plenty contemporary, I play stuff like Dylan on my fretless, I play a lot of blues on the banjo, adapting the playing techniques as necessary to get the right feel and rhythm, My playing is driving and not plunky, I don't play over the scoop, I don't have any aspirations to sound round peak, sometimes I'm very strummy - mixing in up and down strumming with either down-picking or up-picking, I almost never play fiddle tunes, I use the banjo almost exclusively for song accompaniment ... and ... while I may be an outlier from the mainstream OT banjo community, I have no trouble whatsoever being accepted here.

Perhaps it's because I strive for intelligent conversation instead of insult and aggression in my discourse.

Then again, perhaps because what I try to do is to bring Old Time techniques into other kinds of music, and to stretch certain limits of those techniques, what I do is of greater interest to an old time player than someone taking old time music and playing it in a non-Old Time manner - which kind of detracts from what Old Time musicians find attractive about the music in the first place.

There's plenty of place here for discussion and differences of opinion. But the attitude you seem to have that you are showing people the light and leading them to think, is just insulting, and difficult to not find offensive. And the disingenuousness of your discourse, of course, has quite the opposite effect of persuading anyone of anything. One is rarely persuaded by the arguments of someone who appears to be completely lacking in intellectual honesty.

Edited by - Marc Nerenberg on 05/31/2012 15:40:17

mbuk06 - Posted - 05/31/2012:  16:52:44

quote:

---

Originally posted by JTRoberts

OT banjo is an unintentionally closed community. Folks are expected (expressly or implied) to be plunky, play over the scoop, be round peak, don't be too strummy, and stuff the pot with towels, sponges and teddy bears. Those who disagree, rock the boat. Either you know it is so or you do not, and nothing I can say will convince anyone. A perfect example of exclusion is Pat Costello, a fine frailing banjo player, who has taught and inspired more folks to make music with the banjo than perhaps this entire forum combined. He had been banned multiple times, because he is strong tongued in defending himself from relentless attack. He is considered "not old time, and just a folk musician."



Disclaimer: I don't know Pat Costello, and have never spoken with him.



The old time banjo community would thrive if it was more inclusive which is the thrust of this thread.

---

JT - use the search box top right and go spend some time in the archive; the range of topics and viewpoints available in there is huge. That is the reality. It may change your mind because you seem to continually confuse the idea of personal preference with 'rules'. Whether this is deliberate on your part only you can tell us.

Marc's observation is very perceptive. It's possible to openly debate with anyone if they truthfully believe what they are saying. Where there is disingenuous commenting for effect or to illicit a response there is no debate or integrity. Just pointlessness. 

I actually think you are clever. Artfully trolling-lite...i.e. staying just the right side of the moderators and site policy. But to what purpose? If I felt as p****d as you appear to do about something I wouldn't waste my time on a forum dedicated to it.

Edited by - mbuk06 on 05/31/2012 17:12:07

minstrelmike - Posted - 05/31/2012:  17:05:15

Pat Costello is excluded from a few on-line communities because of the way he acts, not because of the way he plays.

It's not what he says, it's how he says it. He's unable to avoid name-calling. 

Rudeness is annoying.

JTRoberts - Posted - 05/31/2012:  19:15:16

Mark Nerenberg:



"Your attitude seems to be that you are showing people the light."



That is way above my pay grade. And yet........... the Heyoka brings gifts.

 

Edited by - JTRoberts on 05/31/2012 19:16:42

pastorharry - Posted - 05/31/2012:  19:37:20

quote:

---

Originally posted by whyteman

I'm no T-Bone and my wife is not a Brunette, but we are making our own Old Time music soundtracks to our own little films about our beloved Ozark region. Even if Hollywood does not beat a path to our door and the masses have no use for our "product", we'll keep doing these projects for the love of the music and the places we enjoy.

youtube.com/watch?v=9dMpgmhkg30

Don

---

 Don, my wife and I just watched your video, we really enjoyed it! You live in a lovely place and your music fits well into the landscape. Bravo!

Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 05/31/2012:  20:38:14

quote:

---

Originally posted by JTRoberts

Mark Nerenberg:



"Your attitude seems to be that you are showing people the light."



That is way above my pay grade. And yet........... the Heyoka brings gifts.

 

---

Well, I had to look that one up:

Heyoka

A ledger art depiction of Haokah by the Lakota artist Black Hawk. c.1880

The word Heyókȟa (alternative spellings "Haokah", "Heyoka", "Heyokha") refers to the Lakota concept of a contrarian, jester, satirist or sacred clown.

Heyókȟa are thought of as being backwards-forwards, upside-down, or contrary in nature. This spirit is often manifest by doing things backwards or unconventionally—riding a horse backwards, wearing clothes inside-out, or speaking in a backwards language. For example, if food were scarce, a Heyókȟa would sit around and complain about how full he was; during a baking hot heat wave a Heyókȟa would shiver with cold and put on gloves and cover himself with a thick blanket. Similarly, when it is 40 degrees below freezing he will wander around naked for hours complaining that it is too hot.

____________________________________________________

Well, since you're "contrary in nature", there's really no point in engaging you in discussion, since you're, by definition, only interested in arguing, simply for the sake of arguing.

I have enough argument in my life over real things. I can't imagine why I would want to waste my time on argument over nothing.

Edited by - Marc Nerenberg on 05/31/2012 20:47:22

DoubleG - Posted - 05/31/2012:  22:40:45

Just read most of the posts here and it's always a learning experience even when things get a little passionate. Bach's music is still around, Beethoven's music is still around and these guys have been dead for awhile now. I'm sure most of the folk music created through the ages is still here with us somewhere and it will never end. Although at times I think we might have enough songs, we keep writing more. There's two kinds of music in the world - the good kind, and the bad kind, I like the good kind. Good songs will last after the composer is long gone. Some writers get the byline and others are just 'traditional'.

Edited by - DoubleG on 05/31/2012 22:41:53

mojo_monk - Posted - 06/01/2012:  04:22:03

I really dislike when these things get personal!

I think the words "exclusive" & "inclusive" are being used for no good reason in this thread, and I'll try to explain why.

In reading one of Marc's recent posts, something struck me. When a 'contemporary' musician uses Old Time technique and/or repertoire in her or his performance, it is entirely possible - and acceptable - for said person to be outside of the Old Time tradition. Technique and/or repertoire does not an Old Time musician make. This doesn't make me a purist (even though I guess I am) or indicate some myopic view of what is/isn't Old Time - it simply states that I feel the genre of Old Time music has specific, established rules/boundaries which help identify and distinguish it from other genres. Am I wrong??? That said, "Smells Like Teen Spirit" from the quintessential 90s "grunge" group Nirvana could work in an Old Time string band format if the song was adapted to fit inside the Old Time musical form. It's a stretch I know (and I certainly won't try it), but it is possible. On the other hand, if somebody were to perform said song simply by adding clawhammer banjo into the mix of a rock band, then this is not Old Time. What ruffles the feathers of hardcore OT musicians/fans is when a performance like the latter is labeled "Old Time" when it is simply rock & roll w/ banjo.

I guess what I'm getting at is the idea that what is included or excluded from the world of "Old Time music" is determined by the music itself - not by any person or group. Just because someone like Jack White occasionally sings traditional songs certainly doesn't qualify him as a traditional musician, and Old Time music is specifically traditional music. This doesn't make what he is doing "bad" - it just isn't Old Time.

Disclaimer: This may have made more sense after another cup of coffee, but I submit it as-is nonetheless...

-Sean

banjo bill-e - Posted - 06/01/2012:  12:43:26

What is funny to me is that Jack White causes just as much controversy on a blues or rock forum. The blues guys say he ain't blues and the rock guitar guys say that he can't play, and on and on.
They all miss the point. Jack White is completely driven by his passion for music, he throws himself into whatever form of it turns him on at the moment, and he often plays and sings like his life depends on it. This little excursion into old-time is just a matter of him liking something and going for it, without a thought as to it's purity or whatever. Now, he is not what I want to hear in traditional folk or whatever, but his live performances are among the most exciting things going on in rock music today. I turned my son onto Led Zep, the Who, Allman Bros. etc. He turned me onto Jack White. And I would rather go see Jack leave it all out on the stage than any number of great singers or technical guitar players just going through the motions. He does not let his limitations stop him from making music. Sometimes it works better than other times, but he is absolutely fearless, and he goes for it. There is something to learn in that approach. And of the hundreds of recorded versions of "Wayfaring Stranger" guess which one IS NOW the reference for millions of young people around the world? AND, they like it!

tonyelder - Posted - 06/01/2012:  13:22:24

...and you think he doesn't have any talent?  

youtube.com/watch?v=mjqgliGgvt0 

richla - Posted - 06/01/2012:  13:23:19

I agree with you banjo bill, I'm not a big Jack White fan, but I have watched some of the White Stripe vids on youtube and with one set of drums and a guitar, they have an ENORMOUS crowd very much into their music, and he makes a living at it. I don't know how anyone can say "he's not a musician".
I did not care for the "Wayfaring Stranger" rendition, but Michael Jordan wasn't that great as a baseball player. I guess some of the folks here would say "he's not a real athlete".
Meanwhile, I'm playing to myself in my basement, so I might can appreciate ANYONE that can get up in front of a crowd and entertain with music.
That reminds me: I worked with a guy that was a heck of a guitar player. He took a young lady to a Britney Spears concert and I remember feeling kind of "bad" for him, and later he said it was "amazing, and the band was killer". In other words, a particular type of music might not be to a person's taste, but I think it's a stretch to say "he is not a musician". That's my .02, anyway.

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 06/01/2012:  16:10:28

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjo bill-e

...Jack White...throws himself into whatever form of it turns him on at the moment... This little excursion into old-time... 

---

 banjo bill-e:  Sorry.  I kind of cherry picked your post, but it contained a couple things I wanted to make a point about specifically, so please don't take this as a contradiction of your post... or actually as a reponse to your comments as a whole.

I don't care if Jack White wants to sing Poor Wayfaring Stranger, or even what kind of job he does on it for that matter.  The thing that gets me is when musicians who dabble in this and that get the jobs/exposure over other musicians who dedicate every ounce of their being to a particular style of music.  Wasn't that Dirk Powell up there on the stage with White... maybe he should have been the one in the spotlight?

I understand the name recognition thing.  The masses are more likely to buy Jack White's recordings than Dirk Powell's.  I guess this is just me railing against the injustices of the world.  I suppose I should grow up!  I know better!

Cold Mountain.  Kind of puts me in mind of "Songcatcher".  At least they included Sheila Kay Adams in the film, yet when the CD came out (Songcatcher: Music From and Inspired by the Motion Picture), it featured the likes of Dolly Parton, Patty Loveless, and Rosanne Cash.  These ladies may nominally have roots in old-time country/Bluegrass, etc., but their careers have shown little dedication to that music.  No doubt another marketing decision.

Matt Buckley - Posted - 06/01/2012:  17:19:23

quote:

---

Originally posted by JTRoberts

OT banjo is an unintentionally closed community. Folks are expected (expressly or implied) to be plunky, play over the scoop, be round peak, don't be too strummy, and stuff the pot with towels, sponges and teddy bears. Those who disagree, rock the boat. 

---

This member of the  "closed community" posted the following back in 2010, recorded with Tim Cummings on Scottish borderpipes, Pete Sutherland on fiddle, and myself on clawhammer:

banjohangout.org/myhangout/mus...?id=28694#

Scroll down to Wayfaring Stranger.

Received plenty of positive comments, and no one accused me of rocking the boat.  I do confess to playing over the scoop, and I didn't strum.  I also had a sock or two stuffed in the back. 

JT, I see you've posted only a few times.  There are recordings all over the BHO that indicate the community is actually quite open.  It would be helpful if you checked things out around here a bit more prior to reaching such negative conclusions. 

Cheers.

Matt

Edited by - Matt Buckley on 06/01/2012 17:24:19

whyteman - Posted - 06/01/2012:  17:55:20

Thanks for your kind words, Harry and Erik.

@JTR- I posted my video to make a point counter to yours about Old Time Music not being able to grow and expand.

My wife wrote the banjo tune that defines the soundtrack. She's FINGERPICKING the banjo wearing "misrabs", those wire devices that ol' time pickers like Ravi Shankar from the hills and hollers of the Himalayas used to "pick" sitars. My wife is a classically trained pianist who spent her childhood summers in the '60s with her relatives down in Plato, Missouri where she heard real old time music firsthand on the porch. She brings both aspects to her compositions, albiet subconsciously at times.

To echo what others have said, the parameters of old time music and banjo picking are actually quite broad. But there are parameters, and once crossed,the music simply isn't Old Time, but something else.

I'm not attacking you, only your ideas about how closed-minded the Old Time community is. And there are more amazing young, talented musicians in OT music than ever.

Don

bd - Posted - 06/01/2012:  19:33:30

quote:

---

Originally posted by R.D. Lunceford

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjo bill-e

...Jack White...throws himself into whatever form of it turns him on at the moment... This little excursion into old-time... 

---

 banjo bill-e:  Sorry.  I kind of cherry picked your post, but it contained a couple things I wanted to make a point about specifically, so please don't take this as a contradiction of your post... or actually as a reponse to your comments as a whole.

I don't care if Jack White wants to sing Poor Wayfaring Stranger, or even what kind of job he does on it for that matter.  The thing that gets me is when musicians who dabble in this and that get the jobs/exposure over other musicians who dedicate every ounce of their being to a particular style of music.  Wasn't that Dirk Powell up there on the stage with White... maybe he should have been the one in the spotlight?

I understand the name recognition thing.  The masses are more likely to buy Jack White's recordings than Dirk Powell's.  I guess this is just me railing against the injustices of the world.  I suppose I should grow up!  I know better!

Cold Mountain.  Kind of puts me in mind of "Songcatcher".  At least they included Sheila Kay Adams in the film, yet when the CD came out (Songcatcher: Music From and Inspired by the Motion Picture), it featured the likes of Dolly Parton, Patty Loveless, and Rosanne Cash.  These ladies may nominally have roots in old-time country/Bluegrass, etc., but their careers have shown little dedication to that music.  No doubt another marketing decision.

---

Actually, it was this special (whence came the Jack White video) was where I got to see fellas like Dirk Powell & Riley Baugus for the first time. 

WildJimbo - Posted - 06/01/2012:  21:14:25

How to play and sing old time?  I was really expecting something more like this.... youtube.com/watch?v=J7mlaGOhWCg

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 06/01/2012:  21:17:09

I guess that's the silver lining.

The fact that this music gains the national stage in one form or another is good. It can be a starting point for leading folks back to the "real" stuff.

How many of us discovered old-time banjo by the Bluegrass or folk-music path?

Again, I don't have a problem with Jack White. It's great that he has enough of an interest to perform the trad material. As before, I just wish that the tried and true folks would get more opportunity than they do.

And on another point, lots of good posts and examples of how diverse the old-time banjo community is. I think it's getting even more diverse with the up-tick in interest in 2 and 3 finger OT styles.

As compared to previous decades, this is a golden age of both players and makers. We're a long, long way from fading out, and I agree with the poster who said that the young are still taking up this music in its traditional form and carrying it forward.

Listen to all of the current commercial recordings. Listen to the BHO jukebox. Watch Craig Evans' monumental Banjo Builders series. Like I say, a truly golden age.,

Coonskin - Posted - 06/01/2012:  22:54:17

quote:

---

Originally posted by R.D. Lunceford

Listen to all of the current commercial recordings. Listen to the BHO jukebox. Watch Craig Evans' monumental Banjo Builders series. Like I say, a truly golden age.,

---

I think we haven't yet reached the golden age...this is just the excellent precursor.

More and more people are playing,  and more and more are listening to the legends.  I'm seeing young groups that sound way more oldtimey that the last 25 crops of bands popping up all the time,  plus a greater interest in Minstrel,  etc. playing.

It's coming, and it's going to be nice.

erikforgod - Posted - 06/02/2012:  05:15:15

R.D. Lunceford - How many of us discovered old-time banjo by the Bluegrass or folk-music path?



I played mandolin and seng tenor in a bluegrass band for quite a while. I knew what old-time was and liked it and had some OT recordings but I actually tried my hand at 3-finger Scruggs style first. I made some progress, but I was so busy with the mandolin. Now that I am playing more of the OT clawhammer style of banjo, I am finding in my case that when it comes to the banjo, this style just seems to feel more natural to me. Plus I like the idea of not only being able to sing and pla back-up to a fiddle, I can also play the melody on the banjo just like the fiddle. That really appeals to me.



I agree with coonskin I think this is just the precursor...there is kind of a renaissance going on with OT and the banjo. Some of it may not exactly be what we had in mind but either way it has to help shed light on some of the "old dead guys" Think of it this way R.D. ...some young guy might start a ...for lack of a better term "an OT punk/alternative band" and start on the banjo but not have cut his teeth on some of the older material. And in that process not only does he discover some of the earlier recordings, but he could also reference your "Drop-Thumb" album or some of Dans or Bruce Molskys or heck even Dwight Dillers albums in the process and say "Hey" How is it that I overlooked some of this stuff" these guys are truer to the roots of the music...and in that process get into some of the material that is more like what we listen too and play and enjoy. So its all good....its all connected.

Edited by - erikforgod on 06/02/2012 05:19:18

mbuk06 - Posted - 06/02/2012:  07:29:29

quote:

---

Originally posted by erikforgod

R.D. Lunceford - How many of us discovered old-time banjo by the Bluegrass or folk-music path?



I played mandolin and seng tenor in a bluegrass band for quite a while. I knew what old-time was and liked it and had some OT recordings but I actually tried my hand at 3-finger Scruggs style first. I made some progress, but I was so busy with the mandolin. Now that I am playing more of the OT clawhammer style of banjo, I am finding in my case that when it comes to the banjo, this style just seems to feel more natural to me.

 ...some young guy might start a ...for lack of a better term "an OT punk/alternative band" and start on the banjo but not have cut his teeth on some of the older material. And in that process not only does he discover some of the earlier recordings, but he could also reference your "Drop-Thumb" album or some of Dans or Bruce Molskys or heck even Dwight Dillers albums in the process and say "Hey" How is it that I overlooked some of this stuff" these guys are truer to the roots of the music...and in that process get into some of the material that is more like what we listen too and play and enjoy. So its all good....its all connected.

---

Good points Erik. I think that's the way-in to OT for a lot of folks who didn't grow-up surrounded by this music. Like you I started with bluegrass and Scruggs style but it was as if I'd 'landed but only in an adjacent field' if that makes sense? Starting to play clawhammer and OT was like I'd found 'home' musically. Even though that may seem strange for a non-American? I guess a huge part of it is emotional.