DVD-quality lessons (including tabs/sheet music) available for immediate viewing on any device.
Take your playing to the next level with the help of a local or online banjo teacher.
Weekly newsletter includes free lessons, favorite member content, banjo news and more.
Premier Sponsors
|
Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/236102
Page: 1 2
1xsculler - Posted - 05/14/2012: 12:48:43
Gruhn has a very nice Holy Grail, pre-war, PB-4 flathead converted to a 5-string by grafting onto the fingerboard and neck for $70,000. That's getting downright reasonable for a great banjo.
danielburdett - Posted - 05/14/2012: 15:25:26
I don't think I'll ever be in the position to say that $70,000 for a banjo is reasonable. I sure hope not at least...
El Dobro - Posted - 05/14/2012: 16:20:06
If that's the original inlays, it's a rare full fingerboard H&F.
mikehalloran - Posted - 05/14/2012: 16:28:12
quote:
Originally posted by El Dobro
If that's the original inlays, it's a rare full fingerboard H&F.
If the neck was originally a plectrum, that should be correct.
Haskells RB3 - Posted - 05/14/2012: 16:47:36
I did the same thing to a PB3 I had years ago . The first one I took the binding off and added would to the side of the neck and fingerboard reshaped it and put the binding back on. The second one was a split neck conversion ( that I recently got back). I would rather have that then a new repro neck. I would love to own the PB4.
El Dobro - Posted - 05/14/2012: 17:35:10
quote:
Originally posted by mikehalloran
quote:
Originally posted by El Dobro
If that's the original inlays, it's a rare full fingerboard H&F.
If the neck was originally a plectrum, that should be correct.
Actually, more common for plectrum and 5-string H&F patterns would be no inlay at the 1st and 15th fret positions.
mikehalloran - Posted - 05/14/2012: 18:08:34
I have never seen a plectrum missing the first inlay. Of course I haven't seen that many plectrums over the years but a few...
southerndrifter - Posted - 05/14/2012: 18:22:03
quote:
Originally posted by mikehalloran
quote:
Originally posted by El Dobro
If that's the original inlays, it's a rare full fingerboard H&F.
If the neck was originally a plectrum, that should be correct.
I think the fingerboard has been replaced. On the couple of plectrum necks that I have seen with grafted wood to make it a 5-string, the inlays were slightly off center. They look dead centered on this neck.
Edited by - southerndrifter on 05/14/2012 18:22:53
Haskells RB3 - Posted - 05/14/2012: 18:41:32
If you cut the fingerboard in half at the 5th fret you can then line everything up right by shifting the fingerboard over above the 5th fret and re gluing it.
1xsculler - Posted - 05/14/2012: 19:47:03
Very useful information here as I'd like to do the same type of conversion myself.
El Dobro - Posted - 05/14/2012: 20:16:34
quote:
Originally posted by mikehalloran
I have never seen a plectrum missing the first inlay. Of course I haven't seen that many plectrums over the years but a few...
T&P plectrums usually had the 1st and 15th positions blank. More and more positions were filled through the OPF period. A few had the 15th position filled with the Mastertone block. Seems to have been hit or miss.
DHutchens - Posted - 05/15/2012: 04:23:45
Lynwood said:I think the fingerboard has been replaced. On the couple of plectrum necks that I have seen with grafted wood to make it a 5-string, the inlays were slightly off center. They look dead centered on this neck.
If you add the appropriate amount of wood on both sides of the fingerboard it should maintain a straight line of inlay.....
Oldtwanger - Posted - 05/15/2012: 05:20:56
quote:
Originally posted by DHutchens
Lynwood said:I think the fingerboard has been replaced. On the couple of plectrum necks that I have seen with grafted wood to make it a 5-string, the inlays were slightly off center. They look dead centered on this neck.
If you add the appropriate amount of wood on both sides of the fingerboard it should maintain a straight line of inlay.....
Doug, I remember playing this one when Curtis had it a few years ago, and I seem to recall that the board had been cut at the fifth fret and shifted over with appropriate amounts of rosewood added on each side - as described by Haskell's above. The shift was just enough and is not real obvious in the photo, but if memory serves, that is what I remember.
Someone will have to go see it and tell us if I'm remembering correctly.
It is one of the nicest -4"s I've played - beautiful tone - and beautiful workmanship. I'd sure like to have it.
flatthead - Posted - 05/15/2012: 05:34:53
I played this banjo about several years ago and it is a great one to be sure. As I think was mentioned, Chris Bozung did the conversion of the PB neck and indeed did add wood to both sides of the fretboard....As I recall, you almost have to look at the board with a magnifier to see the splices....It was *very* well done......Great banjo, and I think a very fair price....
Wayne Holcombe - Posted - 05/15/2012: 10:52:59
From what I remember the conversion was so clean that if you didn't know it was done you would have a hard time guessing it was done.Is this the first one that has come out of the closet,(pardon the pun) .
NYCJazz - Posted - 05/15/2012: 20:11:05
Plectrum banjos aren't rare enough already without them being permanently altered like this. It's originality is gone. It's NOT "almost original".
Beegee (Bob Gaddis) has come out against this kind of conversion. It's one of the few things we agree on.
DIV - Posted - 05/15/2012: 22:04:28
If this is indeed the one that Bill Curtis used to own (and it certainly sounds that way) then I hav to admit that I was fortunate enough to have seen it in the flesh and it's an incredible piece of workmanship done at a time when making a new replica 5 string neck was not very feasible. I didn't get to play it, but for me, that would have been asking way too much!
Oldtwanger - Posted - 05/16/2012: 04:26:53
quote:
Originally posted by DIV
If this is indeed the one that Bill Curtis used to own (and it certainly sounds that way) then I hav to admit that I was fortunate enough to have seen it in the flesh and it's an incredible piece of workmanship done at a time when making a new replica 5 string neck was not very feasible. I didn't get to play it, but for me, that would have been asking way too much!
Dan, when I played it, Curtis McPeake had it.
ProfessorBanjo - Posted - 05/16/2012: 14:05:24
Does anyone know if this the PB-4 has a low or high profile tone ring?
Thanks.
larry p - Posted - 05/16/2012: 15:57:10
I saw this banjo today: the workmanship on that neck is amazing...If you didn't know the modification had been done I'd say a lot of people would never notice the splices added for the 5th string..Some of the very best work I've ever seen for sure!
It's a one-piece flange, chrome plated, full weight flat head tone ring 'Style 4'.. Seems to me that this is one HECK of a great deal on a prewar flat head banjo..
DIV - Posted - 05/22/2012: 13:54:02
quote:
Originally posted by Oldtwanger
quote:
Originally posted by DIV
If this is indeed the one that Bill Curtis used to own (and it certainly sounds that way) then I hav to admit that I was fortunate enough to have seen it in the flesh and it's an incredible piece of workmanship done at a time when making a new replica 5 string neck was not very feasible. I didn't get to play it, but for me, that would have been asking way too much!
Dan, when I played it, Curtis McPeake had it.
OMG!!! You guys were right about getting old...it's finally happening!!! Ouch!
I called the great Curtis McPeake, "Bill Curtis"...that was the guy who used to host all the crime documentaries on cable, like Cold Case Files and American Justice....
My bad!!!
Anyway, getting back to this PB4, if I'm not mistaken, wood would have had to been added to both sides of the neck...is that right?
Forrest - Posted - 05/22/2012: 18:44:05
quote:
Originally posted by Oldtwanger
quote:
Originally posted by DIV
If this is indeed the one that Bill Curtis used to own (and it certainly sounds that way) then I hav to admit that I was fortunate enough to have seen it in the flesh and it's an incredible piece of workmanship done at a time when making a new replica 5 string neck was not very feasible. I didn't get to play it, but for me, that would have been asking way too much!
Dan, when I played it, Curtis McPeake had it.
I played this banjo back in 2005 when Curtis had it in his shop. He had to show me where the fingerboard had been cut and wood added - it was that well done. It was an exceptionally fine sounding banjo as I recall.
Timeless1952 - Posted - 06/14/2012: 21:15:47
Aradobanjo - Posted - 06/15/2012: 08:55:14
Hello,
$70,000 dollars for a piece of wood? Either someone purchased this at a lower price and thinks appreciation should happen. Or bought at a much higher price and needs to recoup their portion of the capital. Could be set high to prevent waste.
Why not all conversions receive the same price? Wood doesn't last forever. Metal does rust. Original items topped at $30k in Gruhn's inventory. Seems too high for a conversion. This may sound sweet but glues give out. Wood dry rots.
A limit now exists. I doubt this could be financed. Mortgage the house? Lottery winner? Would it really be played for $70k?
John
Aradobanjo
Julio B - Posted - 06/15/2012: 11:13:09
Ahem, this is a banjo, not a mere "piece of wood," and time is too valuable to expound upon this banjo to one who lacks the aforementioned basic understanding.
quote:
Originally posted by Aradobanjo
Hello,
$70,000 dollars for a piece of wood? Either someone purchased this at a lower price and thinks appreciation should happen. Or bought at a much higher price and needs to recoup their portion of the capital. Could be set high to prevent waste.
Why not all conversions receive the same price? Wood doesn't last forever. Metal does rust. Original items topped at $30k in Gruhn's inventory. Seems too high for a conversion. This may sound sweet but glues give out. Wood dry rots.
A limit now exists. I doubt this could be financed. Mortgage the house? Lottery winner? Would it really be played for $70k?
John
Aradobanjo
Edited by - Julio B on 06/15/2012 11:15:06
wuzapicker - Posted - 06/15/2012: 12:52:27
quote:
Originally posted by Aradobanjo
Hello,
$70,000 dollars for a piece of wood? Either someone purchased this at a lower price and thinks appreciation should happen. Or bought at a much higher price and needs to recoup their portion of the capital. Could be set high to prevent waste.
Why not all conversions receive the same price? Wood doesn't last forever. Metal does rust. Original items topped at $30k in Gruhn's inventory. Seems too high for a conversion. This may sound sweet but glues give out. Wood dry rots.
A limit now exists. I doubt this could be financed. Mortgage the house? Lottery winner? Would it really be played for $70k?
John
Aradobanjo
There are people who so desire to own a 1930's Gibson Mastertone original Flathead, one piece flange banjo that they will pay the $70K. To some it would be an investment. To others a status symbol. And to some a very remarkable banjo that they are glad to own and play. Some professional might use it to record. It is said to be one of the really good ones.
I would say, if one needed to finance it, they probably shouldn't buy it. Besides others might consider a $5,000 banjo an ostentatious extravagance.
Some have found owning a very valuable instrument to be a liability because such instruments are targets for thieves. I spoke once to the fellow who sold Ricky Scaggs his F5 Lloyd Loar signed mandolin. The seller was quite glad to sell the thing. He compared it to taking a great weight off his shoulders.
Banjo Saint - Posted - 06/16/2012: 09:21:40
Supply and demand sets the price. Most who own banjos like this play them. Yes, some collectors don't.
There is a history of banjos like this one, an original high profile heavyweight flathead style 4 (or a style 3), bringing $70k or more. Original 5 string banjos are a different matter and carry an even higher price tag. Original flathead banjos have maintained more of their value during the recent lean years for Prewar Gibson banjos than have converted archtops. There are far less original flatheads than archtops.
Usually a conversion refers to the addition of a new five string neck to a tenor or plectrum banjo or the cutting of a rim on an archtop banjo and adding a new reproduction flathead tone ring. The modification of a plectrum neck is a little more unusual. This particular modification was particularly good.
I hope this was helpful.
quote:
Originally posted by Aradobanjo
Hello,
$70,000 dollars for a piece of wood? Either someone purchased this at a lower price and thinks appreciation should happen. Or bought at a much higher price and needs to recoup their portion of the capital. Could be set high to prevent waste.
Why not all conversions receive the same price? Wood doesn't last forever. Metal does rust. Original items topped at $30k in Gruhn's inventory. Seems too high for a conversion. This may sound sweet but glues give out. Wood dry rots.
A limit now exists. I doubt this could be financed. Mortgage the house? Lottery winner? Would it really be played for $70k?
John
Aradobanjo
Edited by - Banjo Saint on 06/16/2012 09:23:27
Aradobanjo - Posted - 06/17/2012: 07:52:13
Hello,
Every banjo is an investment. To the beholder, their banjo can be viewed as priceless. I have observed the price of Pre-war banjos. In fact, one banjo was listed for a while with a $29000 plus price. Buying any instrument is an investment where capital spent until the owner has to sell. Hopefully, the owner can sell at their price, just like each of us when our time comes. A history about ownership, builder, woods, ornimentation, brand and tone all have a part in price. I liked the story on my banjo. I also liked the price offered. Yet, the description did not warrant to me a $70,000 price tag. The many accolades on different banjos sold on here all say the same thing. The sad testimony is the number of reductions and pulls on offerings. The appetite does not seem to warrant $70,000. Maybe, this why this is listed on Gruhn's site and not here.
John
Aradobanjo
RB3WREATH - Posted - 06/17/2012: 12:17:59
John
Are you really that out of touch? A banjo like this is
Worth every penny of 70 k asking price. It may sell for 65 or so
But these banjos have held their values better than
Any other banjos through these lean times. They
Sound like nothing else and deliver true pleasure to anyone
Who plays them.
Joe
josh95843 - Posted - 06/17/2012: 13:03:12
I went down and played it the other day. Needed the head tightened quite a bit but u could tell it was sure a hoss. I personally think 70k is a great price on this piece. The neck was a little chuck for me personally but i know a lot of pickers who would love this one
owlcreekdan - Posted - 06/17/2012: 15:56:41
every banjo player is looking for this holy grail.there was only so many,rare to find one that a total original.i haven't played it but if it's what it appears to be it's worth every penny.
Aradobanjo - Posted - 06/17/2012: 16:49:05
Hello,
Held value? Escalated is more like it. The original price for a plectrum was not $70,000. In reality, every banjo is unique, one of a kind model. The rarity is based on variability. None two banjos are alike. Look at the RB-800 discussion. Two were purchased at the same time but different delivery dates. When compared, one sounded wonderful. The other sounded, ok. As stated earlier, plectrum banjo players would consider this instrument a travesty for an already slim market of Pre-war plectrums.
When I was in California for my grandfather's funeral around 1994, my uncle took me around to different shops near San Bernadino. An local approached us with an offer on a Pre-war banjo. This instrument sounded sweet. The price was $2400. I do not recall the model or the year. The sound was very good to my ears. This was a Gibson.
As stated on this page, instruments valued at this level of price are played 1) never 2) studio only 3) on th road. The seller of the F5 was glad to offload the additional worry. Bela Fleck plays his custom pre-war RB-75. Noam Pikelny plays his custom pre-war RB-18. Both are sweet sounding instruments. I enjoy the music both men produce with their instruments.
The number of vouchers for $900 to $70,000 banjos use the same vernacular to describe an instrument. Vouchers are very nice to have.
For me, the statement of wood being added to the original neck, while claimed to be prefect, is a discounting risk factor. If a FN, RS or some other builder fitted a new neck, then we have a different starting point. The instrument is not made of gold and silver like The Earl.
In another thread on this site, the contention is over the end of the Pre-war mystic. Has the custom builders of today exceeded the builders of Pre-war banjos? From what I hear on a Bluegrass Junction, I would have to agree.
Finally, the story of Earl Scruggs picking his banjo out of a group says tha variability is a huge factor of the past. If they were all the same, why need to pick? Therefore, $70000 buys what? Quit possibly the one Earl rejected.
John
Aradobanjo
f5loar - Posted - 06/17/2012: 17:11:56
or for about $20,000 less you could acutual buy a "The Earl" made by the same company. What is the prewar flathead tone ring in this one worth without the rest of the banjo? 20 to 30K? Sounds cheap to me at $70K since you really do know what it is you are buying. That prewar you were offered for $2400 in 1994 was likely a parts banjo and far from being the real deal.
rupickin5 - Posted - 06/17/2012: 18:20:45
John, we're all entitled to our own opinions...and then, there are market factors & realities...
Just for the fun of it (and maybe education for all in this current discussion...), let's say you've come to the spot in the road where you've made the decision that you'd like to acquire an all original pre-war opf, hi-profile, full-weight flat-head tone-ring Gibson Mastertone that is 'right' (non-molested / no monkey business); and, for this discussion...let's say that it's a TB or PB 3 or 4...what are you willing to pay...now that (hypothetically) you've made this personal decision? You can state a price-range if you like...curious minds would like to know...
Thanks, Brian
Edited by - rupickin5 on 06/17/2012 18:21:38
josh95843 - Posted - 06/18/2012: 08:13:44
quote:Have you held this banjo and played it??????
Originally posted by Aradobanjo
Hello,
Held value? Escalated is more like it. The original price for a plectrum was not $70,000. In reality, every banjo is unique, one of a kind model. The rarity is based on variability. None two banjos are alike. Look at the RB-800 discussion. Two were purchased at the same time but different delivery dates. When compared, one sounded wonderful. The other sounded, ok. As stated earlier, plectrum banjo players would consider this instrument a travesty for an already slim market of Pre-war plectrums.
When I was in California for my grandfather's funeral around 1994, my uncle took me around to different shops near San Bernadino. An local approached us with an offer on a Pre-war banjo. This instrument sounded sweet. The price was $2400. I do not recall the model or the year. The sound was very good to my ears. This was a Gibson.
As stated on this page, instruments valued at this level of price are played 1) never 2) studio only 3) on th road. The seller of the F5 was glad to offload the additional worry. Bela Fleck plays his custom pre-war RB-75. Noam Pikelny plays his custom pre-war RB-18. Both are sweet sounding instruments. I enjoy the music both men produce with their instruments.
The number of vouchers for $900 to $70,000 banjos use the same vernacular to describe an instrument. Vouchers are very nice to have.
For me, the statement of wood being added to the original neck, while claimed to be prefect, is a discounting risk factor. If a FN, RS or some other builder fitted a new neck, then we have a different starting point. The instrument is not made of gold and silver like The Earl.
In another thread on this site, the contention is over the end of the Pre-war mystic. Has the custom builders of today exceeded the builders of Pre-war banjos? From what I hear on a Bluegrass Junction, I would have to agree.
Finally, the story of Earl Scruggs picking his banjo out of a group says tha variability is a huge factor of the past. If they were all the same, why need to pick? Therefore, $70000 buys what? Quit possibly the one Earl rejected.
John
Aradobanjo
Aradobanjo - Posted - 06/18/2012: 16:49:22
Hello,
On playing with it? Do not need to nor want to. If someone has placed the price on this that high, I do not want the responsibility. Unless I paying for it, its not mine. Too many cases of people handling high priced objects and dropping them.
But, as for the $2400 banjo... My uncle said there were better to be had. Besides, I was at a funeral in California. I was not near home.
The point being is that a banjo can sound very good for the moment. I would venture to say that today's market of Pre-War is TB and PB models converted just like this one. Yet, they do not seem to command the same price. Every seller says "it sounds sweet", as they should. I would say the reason for this has been discussed in another thread. The 20's, 30's and 40's was 4 string time and not 5. Hence, the limited supply of pre-war 5 strings as compared to 4 strings.
As demonstrated by Noam and Bela, they took their banjos and reworked them into being stellar, out-of-this-world, smooth sounding instruments. I would be hard pressed to believe they paid $70,000 for their instruments. Their banjos have custom necks, armrests, and tailpieces. Hey, just like the other conversions. Yet, I would venture to say that their instruments would be at or beyond $70,000 because of ownership, improvements, and quality of sound. I would like to think that Robin Smith built the neck for Noam's RB-18 banjo. Maybe that would elevate the value of Robin Smith's banjos.
Right now we are slump where money is tight and many out of work. This is like seeing a millionaires house being raised in the low rent district. I feel for the guys and gals needing to sell their instrument to pay bills or something else.
John
Aradobanjo
RB3WREATH - Posted - 06/18/2012: 22:17:33
John
The thought that the new wood in the plectrum neck is a point of risk has no basis. You could throw the neck away and still have a pot worth 70K
Joe
BanjoLink - Posted - 06/19/2012: 09:21:03
John - The people who would not pay $70,000 for this banjo are not the folks that "set" the market - it is the people that will pay that price are the ones that set the market. The value and desirability of these old pre-war flatheads, in my opinion, have nothing to do with the sound or quality of the fine new banjos on todays market. It has been said many times on this forum that if you can't hear the difference between the pre-wars and the newer banjos, and the pre-war mystique has no allure to you, then you would be very foolish to buy one. Most of the people that I know that own them did not buy them as "investments" but rather to play and enjoy. I too feel empathy for those that may have to sell their banjo due to the economy, but I am also grateful for those people who have earned enough to buy and preserve these old jewels.
Incidentally, Noam doesn't play an RB-18 - a converted TB-7 (or maybe 11 - but not an 18).
f5loar - Posted - 06/19/2012: 09:34:43
That would be a 12 not a 11. The top tensions were 7 nickel plate, 12 chrome plate and 18 gold plate. But I'm with Joe , throw the neck away and you still got a $60-$70K pot. It's in that flathead tonering matched to that old wood rim and if you don't understand the reasoning behind that you do need to stick with those $2400 prewar flatheads or a new one that is made to sound like one. When I was at Jim Mill's house standing directly in front of him and he played one Scruggs tune on a prewar flat I got it real quick what it's all about. Like high dollar art paintings not everyone gets it when they see it but those that do will pay the price. Vintage cars same way. Sit inside and grab the steering wheel, step on the gas pedel on that 1956 Continential Lincoln Mark II or that 1957 Eldorado Brougham and you will feel it pretty quick why they cost what they do. Personally it's probably a good thing that not every banjo picker understands it. There's not enough of them to go around if everyone understood the power of the mystic! May the force be with you!
BanjoLink - Posted - 06/20/2012: 05:06:11
quote:
Originally posted by Banjo40
Noam plays a 7, but the inlay pattern is from a 12.
Correct - sorry for the typo! I know it's not an 11 - as I have an original RB-11 and what Noam plays is not it! I had forgotten that his neck had the style 12 inlays. There is at least one other style 7 with the same style 12 inlays on a converted neck - maybe Bernunzio or Huber had it in the last couple of years.
3fingers - Posted - 06/23/2012: 09:39:49
I think 70K is perfectly inline with the market. To someone that really doesnt follow it to closely I could see where it would seem out of line when you see OPF's mastertones selling in the 10K ball park and TB11s or TB1s in the $2500 to 3K neighborhood but all your getting is usually a rim, resonator, and "some" hardware. Nothing like this 4 where you getting rim,reso,hardware,neck with just a little extra wood, and oh yeah a PRE WAR FLAT HEAD ring LOL I agree with Joe and Tom that the pot alone is worth 60k in fact I recall seeing a few PB's and a rare TB that was an original flat head sell in the 60K range.
I usually go through Gruhns inventory lists and think he's little proud of his stuff, not just banjos but other instruments as well but in this case your talking about such a special banjo that hes not out of line. I would bet though that the lucky future owner offers 60 and they meet in the middle at 65K LOL.
Craig
El Dobro - Posted - 06/24/2012: 11:13:53
Heck, I sold of my Cadillac Allante to pick up the old flathead I have now. Was it worth it? Heck yea. 
afchap - Posted - 06/24/2012: 12:57:41
OK guys, I've read all the posts, digested, and enjoyed the discussion. I've have heard descriptions such as "downright reasonable", "good investment". a "good deal", etc. In light of all this, here's my question: Why hasn't it sold? I assume that Gruhn may come down a little on the price - I may be wrong. I know that there are people here on the HO who can afford it. If its that good (and I'm not saying it isn't) it looks to me like someone should have jumped on it. Why not?
Page: 1 2
Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Privacy Consent (EU/GDPR Only)
Copyright 2026 Banjo Hangout. All Rights Reserved.
