Tim Zowada - Posted - 03/01/2012:  12:17:48

I'm just a beginner when it comes to hide heads. But, I thought my experiences might prove useful to someone considering a hide head for their banjo.

I have been looking for a more "mellow" tone for my Mastertone style banjo. I am playing more classical and big band style music. The overtones, and shrill nature of the first and second strings above the 17th fret did not lend well to the sound I was trying to achieve. Changing bridges, and tailpieces helped me move in the  right direction. Yet, am cursed with the disease of many banjo players. I love to tinker.

I ordered a Vellum processed head from banjoseen.com. It arrived within a week. following the instructions, I sprayed both sides with KIWI Silicone boot dressing. The Silicone dressing quickly soaked completely through the head. I'm hindsight, I will now wait to silicone the head until after it has been fit to my banjo.

When I was installing the head for the first time, I could get about two threads on the bracket hooks. That was good enough. I tightened the head, following the instructions. But, the tension hoop was still too high with the head very tight. I dampened the head and continued to tighten. I finally got the hoop down to the level of the last fret and left it overnight to dry.

The next morning, the head was dry and very tight. I gave it some thought and decided I wanted the front of the tension hoop level with the end of the fingerboard. To soak things quickly, I laid a damp towel on the head for about ten minutes. The stretching and drying went easily and the head was where I wanted it. The interesting thing is that the weave of the towel left an imprint of the fabric on the head. With all the soaking and Silicone, the head is pretty rough now.

After things had dried, I re-applied the Silicone. After the Silicone was dry, I put things back together.

The tensioning was interesting. The head dried to between a G and G#. I haven't done anything to the tension since. The Steve Davis straight edge and quarter trick put it right at a quarter in sag. The drum dial readings vary between 86 and 90. But that is just the nature of the beast. I've had it on for a week now, and the tension will vary between having a micro-gap (0.002") between the quarter and straight edge, and having the quarter lift one edge of the straight edge off the head by about 0.002" on one end. I don't think the pitch has ever been over a G#. We have had some pretty big weather swings during the week.

Now for the sound. It is unlike any banjo I have ever heard in person. It sounds a lot like Mr. Scruggs' banjo off of the old TV shows. I am told he was using a hide head then as well. For my music though, the most important thing is the elimination of the harshness of the higher pitches. I guess you could say the overall tone is more "mellow". It is still just as loud, and still has good sustain up the neck. A second string high G# still rings.

After only a week, I'm a convert. Of course a muggy summer may drive me back to plastic, but I don't think so. My excessive/compulsive nature is now leading me to make a stretching jig so I can try different hides. It is a good thing that I do enjoy playing as much as tinkering.

If anyone has any suggestions, I'm all ears. I am wondering how a rough vs. smooth finish, and Silicone, effects the tone. 

If you have ever even considered a hide head, give it a try. You might just luck in to that "Holy Grail" sound.

Vellum Calfskin Head

jbalch - Posted - 03/01/2012:  12:33:53

I hope you enjoy that new hide.  It is s good looking one too.

(Linking to the hide heads group: banjohangout.org/group/hideheads)

TR Dockery - Posted - 03/01/2012:  12:37:19

Thanks for posting, Tim.  I wondered about how much the silicone treatment would soak through when I asked whether or not to spray both sides of the head when another thread on hide heads came up not too long ago.  In light of your results, I am thinking I might spray the inside before installing and letting that dry, then installing and finally spraying the outside of the head after tightening.  

Happy trails,

Randy in Germantown, TN

Tim Zowada - Posted - 03/01/2012:  12:44:13

Randy,

The next time, I will get the head fitting the way I want, and then apply the silicone with a sponge or rag. I had to stretch things quite a bit. Pre-treating with silicone made it a hassle to dampen the head for stretching.

Remember though, I'm a beginner here. But I am pretty handy with wood and leather. tzknives.com

Tim Zowada - Posted - 03/01/2012:  12:50:46

I just thought of another way to describe the tone. It didn't become tubby, or plunky at all. It still rings like a bell. It is just a very sweet, mellow, non-piercing bell. It is difficult to describe sound and perceptions...

TR Dockery - Posted - 03/01/2012:  12:54:37

quote:

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Originally posted by Tim Zowada

Randy,



The next time, I will get the head fitting the way I want, and then apply the silicone with a sponge or rag. I had to stretch things quite a bit. Pre-treating with silicone made it a hassle to dampen the head for stretching.



Remember though, I'm a beginner here. But I am pretty handy with wood and leather. tzknives.com

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 Thanks for responding to this again, Tim.  Would you say that the silicon treatment soaks through far enough to just apply it on the outside next time or do you still plan to apply it to the inside as well?

DEmery - Posted - 03/01/2012:  12:58:19

I really like the texture of that skin head. John Balch is my head mounting expert and has put some great looking skins on a few banjos. Each one is unique and I tend to enjoy the look of non-white heads these days. Set up right they can sound excellent. Enjoy. David E.

Ole' Abe built by Dan Knowles

Goshen built by Dan Knowles

J.L. Sproull Woody #005

Tim Zowada - Posted - 03/01/2012:  13:02:58

With the Vellum processed head it soaks through most areas from just one side. But, there were a few areas that required both sides to soak completely through.

Next time, I will play it for a month or two without Silicone. Then I will silicone both sides and see how that changes both the tone and resistance to weather changes. Most likely that will be this July or August. That's when it gets the most muggy around here.

Besides, it sounds so good now, I just want to play it for a while. :)

jbalch - Posted - 03/01/2012:  14:32:30

Be careful applying waterproofer to a mounted head.  I've been told that you don't want to get it on your banjo's metal parts.  Can be hard to remove I think.

When mounting a hide from scratch, I like to install on my banjo and set the crown where it needs to be (allowing for additional stretching as the head settles).  I usually leave it on the banjo at least overnight before removing for final trimming and to spray with waterproofer. With the head removed, I spray top, back and crown for a thorough treatment. Then let it dry before re-installing on the banjo. 

Your idea of allowing it to season & stretch for a while before treating is a good one.  It takes some hides a good long while to settle and fully stretch.  No need to hurry.

I think master luthier Dan Knowles has a jig on which he can stretch the hide ... set the crown ... and spray the hide  -under full tension.  It makes sense to me that you might get better treatment that way.  But I have not gone that far myself (yet).

BTW:  Your knife work is beautiful....

Edited by - jbalch on 03/01/2012 14:35:00

Tim Zowada - Posted - 03/01/2012:  16:59:02

Thanks John. I'll check and see if I can find out what Dan Knowles has.

The KIWI Silicone didn't faze my Chrome parts. I think it might be very different for Nickel plating though.

jbalch - Posted - 03/02/2012:  09:03:55

quote:

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Originally posted by Tim Zowada

Thanks John. I'll check and see if I can find out what Dan Knowles has.



The KIWI Silicone didn't faze my Chrome parts. I think it might be very different for Nickel plating though.

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 Good to know about the chrome ...I think it was Dan who advised me not to get the waterproof spray on my nickel parts.  I never wanted to find out why...

grizzly1 - Posted - 03/02/2012:  22:28:17

Not sure about metal parts, but silicone contamination sure is a nightmare if your trying finish or refinish wood that been exposed to the stuff and you have not gotten every last iota of it off. Fisheye galore.

jbalch - Posted - 03/03/2012:  05:41:08

quote:

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Originally posted by grizzly1

Not sure about metal parts, but silicone contamination sure is a nightmare if your trying finish or refinish wood that been exposed to the stuff and you have not gotten every last iota of it off. Fisheye galore.

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 Maybe that is what Dan mentioned ... perhaps I was confused.  Regardless, I like to remove the head from the banjo for close trimming and treatment. 

Edited by - jbalch on 03/03/2012 05:49:07

shooze - Posted - 03/03/2012:  11:14:03

jbalch,
Interesting that you remove the head to trim it - I have always thought that the razor blade method would cut/scratch the rim when trimming - I like your method and will try it when I install my banjo head.
Also, regarding the the colour of your banjo head in the above picture - how did you get the skin to go that orange tone? Thanks in advance.

jbalch - Posted - 03/03/2012:  17:18:27

quote:

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Originally posted by shooze

jbalch,

Interesting that you remove the head to trim it - I have always thought that the razor blade method would cut/scratch the rim when trimming - I like your method and will try it when I install my banjo head.

Also, regarding the the colour of your banjo head in the above picture - how did you get the skin to go that orange tone? Thanks in advance.

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The hide in the above photo was a Bill Miller dyed calfskin. He sells the brown and a green color. Bill sent me a couple to try. This one went on a friend's old Kay banjo. It looked really cool. banjoseen.us/Store/Pictures/Brown.jpg 

 I trim above the tension hoop while wet (see below) ... then after it is completely dry (at least overnight) ... remove for final trim & spray.

 It makes for a nice neat job:

Edited by - jbalch on 03/03/2012 17:25:23

shooze - Posted - 03/04/2012:  19:46:30

Excellent, thanks again!