Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/222733
mwhelply - Posted - 12/11/2011: 21:54:52
A comment regarding a message posted in the discussion under the archived subject Vega Pete Seeger Long Necks banjohangout.org/archive/198731:
You can find a copy of a Vega Banjo catalog at the Kingston Trio Place website at the bottom of this page: kingstontrioplace.com/vega.htm This is supposed to be a 1963 catalog. It spells the model name "Xcel" and states it was available by special order only. The address is Boston 15, no ZIP code. This would imply the catalog was published prior to ZIP codes arrival in July 1963.
This link frets.com/fretspages/museum/Ba...xcel.html included in one of the archived messages includes the statement "Interestingly the 1966 Vega catalog has this model spelled "Xcel." as though that had not be seen in a catalog before 1966.
A question: pastorharry refered to "the coveted yellow labels" in one of his posts. That's new to me. Why are they coveted? My Vega Xcel has the yellow label.
Edited by - mwhelply on 12/11/2011 22:27:05
mikehalloran - Posted - 12/11/2011: 22:30:29
That's my brochure, I believe. I posted it years ago and it has been copied many times since.
The yellow label indicates that it was, indeed, made by Vega. That label is sometimes missing - this hurts the value - I'll know how much if I ever go to sell my blondie, I suppose..
I am pretty certain that mine, like Pete Seeger's, is a PS-5 with a blonde neck and not an Xcel, Xcell or Excel (all three spellings have appeared on labels). This is one of two that Vega gave him.
Here is the Excel from FRETS.com - note the blonde pot and the 5th peg moved to the 9th fret. Although these features were on one of Erik Darling's original customs - before the PS-5 officially existed, the story goes that Alex Hassilev of the Limelighters commissioned the first Xcell so that he could capo up and play in F in the days before Shubb capos. The Xcel is extremely rare. Congratulations!
Edited by - mikehalloran on 12/11/2011 22:40:38
pastorharry - Posted - 12/12/2011: 00:55:28
I've linked this to the long neck group page.
TonyS - Posted - 12/14/2011: 16:57:15
...thanks for the link to my humble LN page!
mwhelply - Posted - 12/15/2011: 16:52:59
Thanks for the information. I thought perhaps the comment implied there was another style or color label. —and thanks for posting the Vega brochure. I was really glad to see it the first time a few years ago.
mikehalloran - Posted - 12/15/2011: 17:43:53
There is a lot of confusion regarding who made what from the CF Martin era through Galaxy Trading etc. The yellow label tells us that it was made in Boston or Needham, MA before production moved to Nazareth, PA.
Unlike Gibson, Martin, Fender and so many other trademarks, no one fakes The Yellow Label... or the truss rod/truss tube combo or a few other things on these.
If you want a full sized scan of the flyer, send me a message and I'll email it to you.
Edited by - mikehalloran on 12/15/2011 17:45:59
phdm - Posted - 01/21/2012: 01:31:31
As a long time owner of two Vega long necks - both a Folklore model and a Pete Seeger model, 1962 - I have a question about
the Xcel Custom model that all my research has not been able to answer. One of the features of the Vega Xcel Custom Model was,
according to the catalog of the era, that the 5th peg was moved up (meaning toward the drum) one fret to between the 8th and 9th fret, (instead of between the 7th and 8th fret in
the "standard" Seeger and Folklore models.) Can anyone tell me why this was done, what its benefits were, and why this would be a selling point?
I have never played an Xcel model, but I think it might throw me off a bit in capoing. If you capo the Seeger/Folklore model at the
3rd fret to simulate a standard banjo, then the 5th string peg is right between the relative 4th and 5th frets, just like a standard banjo. Why move the
5th string peg one fret down? Thanks for any thoughts from those in the know on the Vega Xcel.
I am a great admirer of Seeger and the more playing of my Vegas and research on his life and the banjo I do, the more I have come to realize that the long neck banjo
,which Seeger created in 1944, is truly a different instrument from the standard length banjo. He designed this banjo for his particular use - as an accompaniment
to his particular style of singing, his particular vocal range and for his particular style of playing. It is perfectly suited for that function.
In other posts. I have seen discussions wondering what the deal is about long necks and Seeger as a banjo player. But when you realize that he has always
lived by his father's view that the question is not "Is it a good song", but rather "What is the song good for?", then you appreciate the deeper meaning
behind the motto he has always had on his banjos - "This machine surrounds hate and forces it to surrender". His banjo is, in a broader sense, his "machine" - his
tool, used to achieve certain goals - mostly political - though the vehicle of his music and his particularly adapted instrument. The music is primarily a tool, not
purely an end in itself. So I have come to see long neck banjos as an importantly different type of "machine" than, say, my Gibson RB 250. Carpenters have different
planes for different types of wood projects, different moldings they may cut. Long neck Seeger banjos are like a different plane, to be used most effectively in "projects"
for which it was designed. There are some songs that really cannot be done effectively on a long neck - try Foggy Mountain Breakdown on a long neck - you can
play the notes, but it is not the same. Similarly, try playing "This Little Light of Mine" or "We Shall Overcome" on a bluegrass resonator banjo - it is just not the right playing
style or tone required for those songs. The effort to compare Seeger to modern players, or to bluegrass players of then or now is just like comparing
apples and oranges. Each stands tall in their genre. But most would have to agree, regardless of politics - for those of us who did not grow up in a rural,
Southern environment where the five string banjo did have its own life - without Seeger and those first exposed to the banjo via Seeger in the 1940's and 1950's, we
ourselves, would likely never have been exposed to the instrument we love. Vastly simplified - No Seeger = no Dave Guard. No Dave Guard = no Kingston Trio.
No Kingston Trio - no folk revival as we know it. And then I wouldn't be playing the banjo for the last 40 years.
Thanks Pete.
rexhunt - Posted - 01/21/2012: 06:46:31
Isn't that Excel rather uncomfortable to play with the brackets sticking out so far past the bottom of the rim? Were all of the later openback Vegas built that way?
Rex
mikehalloran - Posted - 01/21/2012: 15:34:57
quote:
Originally posted by rexhunt
Isn't that Excel rather uncomfortable to play with the brackets sticking out so far past the bottom of the rim? Were all of the later openback Vegas built that way?
Rex
Those are not the correct nuts on that Excel. I've not noticed that before. Vega stopped using those around 1929. Even '20s banjos that went back for repair got the open style that Vega used from 1929 through the Martin era. Did Vga have a small stash of '20s closed end nuts or are those later replacements? We'll probably never know unless the hooks do not have an 8-24 thread.
The nuts on Vega open backed banjos do stick out a little as you can see on mine. I never found them uncomfortable and never heard anyone complain.
>One of the features of the Vega Xcel Custom Model was, according to the catalog of the era, that the 5th peg was moved up (meaning toward the drum) one fret to between the 8th and 9th fret, (instead of between the 7th and 8th fret in the "standard" Seeger and Folklore models.) Can anyone tell me why this was done, what its benefits were, and why this would be a selling point?<
One of the first Pete Seeger style Vegas was built for Erik Darling. It had the blonde neck and the 5th peg moved up. I don't know if Erik ever explained why this was done - perhaps Vega just did it and he lived with it like that. Erik's, Peggy Seeger's, Bob Gibson's and a few others were built as customs before there was an official PS-5 model.
According to the most common version of the story that I have heard. Alex Hassilev of the Limelighters had the first Excel built for himself. He ordered the 5th peg moved up so he could capo up and play in F - remember that the Shubb and other side address capos had not been invented yet. He also specified the blonde neck, Grover Rotomatics, a geared 5th and blonde neck.
No doubt Alex was familiar with Erik's earlier custom banjo but the first one called the Excel was modeled after the one made for Alex.
The blonde neck, Grovers and geared 5th were all available special order on the PS-5 (mine, for example). There is at least one SS-5 Folklore built with the 5th peg moved up so that, too was apparently also available special order. The Excel had all those features plus a much higher price.
Edited by - mikehalloran on 01/21/2012 15:55:44
rbergesch - Posted - 01/21/2012: 18:59:55
Interesting discussion. I have an SS-5 Longneck (with the yellow label,) that I purchased new in 1962 or 3. I had often thought Alex Hassilev's banjo looked a little longer in the neck than others; now I know why...
The comment about the "different tool" certainly rings true, as does the comment about how a non-southern suburban kid would get introduced to a banjo in the 50s & 60s. I'm so glad I heard these instruments being played on the radio when I was a kid...
And thanks for posting the old Vega catalogs; they are a great resource.
Edited by - rbergesch on 01/21/2012 19:08:36
banjoes - Posted - 01/22/2012: 03:03:33
Question for Mike about his PS5 with blond neck..
I too have what I think is a special order - non Xcel - PS. And I too have lost the famed yellow label (I probably took it off!) . Although screw holes suggest that it originally was fitted with Rotomatics the 5th string peg is in the normal place and no evidence for a 5th string capo. But both neck and rim are maple blond. So, how common was it to have a dark stained mahogany rim with a blond neck? If you ordered a blond neck was it usually fitted to a standard dark rim? Or was this a retrofit?
Best regards
Greg
Edited by - banjoes on 01/22/2012 03:06:41
mikehalloran - Posted - 01/23/2012: 09:24:13
Greg, look at mine earlier in the thread. Although that Excel has a blonde pot, mine has a blonde neck on a dark pot. Pete Seeger's blonde neck is also fitted to a dark pot as was John Stewart's, I think.
It is highly doubtful that someone owned a perfectly good PS-5 and sent it back to Vega for a blonde neck - but it could have happened and they would have done it.
So few of these exist - blonde necks on dark and blonde pots - that no one is likely to know. We can guess that only the Excel had a blonde pot - but really, it is only a guess - and your banjo shows us the guess would be wrong (Post pictures please!!!!). Vega was a small company and the price of a PS-5 or Excel was a lot of money back then.
Mine has a feature I have not seen in another - a blonde heel cap. No one who has examined the banjo doubts that it and the neck finish are original. Still, I have never seen another - how about yours?
If you ever feel the need to put a set of Rotomatics back on yours, I have a set of chrome plated Pat. Pend. from the '60s. Not cheap but they are correct.
Edited by - mikehalloran on 01/23/2012 09:31:09
banjoes - Posted - 01/24/2012: 16:10:29
Hi Mike
thanks for reply. Learn something every day.
If I remember correctly, I bought my PS in New York from 'We Buy Guitars' off Times Square sometime in the late 70s. PS 5s were not greatly in demand at the time and the shop had several. Again as I remember, I looked at two more or less identical Vega longnecks both blonde - neck and pot - both going for about $300.
As I say, I no longer have - or at least cannot find - the yellow sticker, but the rim is 5 ply. I'll try and post some pictures this weekend and you'll notice non-original coordinator rods, which were replaced recently by my luthier in order to get a solid neck fit (at last!) But neck and rim do belong (as far as I know) and I have kept the original co-rods. The banjo plays better now than it ever did - at least since I've owned it.
banjoes - Posted - 02/06/2012: 05:37:37
A few phone pics of my blonde on blonde non Xcel PS 5.
mwhelply - Posted - 02/06/2012: 21:57:05
I apologize for taking so long to post any photos of my Xcel. This is the first time I have posted photos here so bear with me. I'll have to load 3 at a time and I took a lot of photos that will hopefully answer some questions and probably give rise to some new questions and mysteries. Note this banjo once had a 5th string capo attached. You can see the holes in some photos. Also note that it once had Scruggs tuners from Vega like Alex had. You will see the yellow tag says Xcel with tuners. I was able to find a replacement 5th string Vega capo that is actually newer than the banjo (from Martin) but have not had any luck finding Scruggs tuners. You will also be able to tell that it was played a lot. Before I bought it Frank at Gryphon Stringed Instruments re-fretted the neck and installed a new head. So without further ado I'll start uploading photos. 1. Vega Xcel case photos.
mwhelply - Posted - 02/06/2012: 22:18:31
Vega Xcel photos 02
mwhelply - Posted - 02/06/2012: 22:23:38
Vega Xcel photos 03
Edited by - mwhelply on 02/06/2012 22:24:06
mikehalloran - Posted - 02/06/2012: 22:26:12
I know that case - my PS-5 has one that is identical. More pics, please!!!
I, too, have a brand new Vega-Pitmann capo in its original box that I got on eBay many years ago. Someone was selling a stash.
mwhelply - Posted - 02/06/2012: 22:28:31
Vega Xcel banjo 04
mwhelply - Posted - 02/06/2012: 22:33:26
Vega Xcel banjo 05
mwhelply - Posted - 02/06/2012: 22:38:07
Vega Xcel banjo 06
mikehalloran - Posted - 02/06/2012: 22:47:52
Wow - no heel cap. First time I have seen that.
I think I still have another correct Elton arm rest in my parts stash. These were adjustable up and down. They often broke and were thrown away.
mwhelply - Posted - 02/06/2012: 22:51:34
Vega Xcel banjo photos 07. That's it. If you have questions or would like a better photo of a part of the banjo, let me know and I'll do my best to get what you need. I've enjoyed all your comments and the wealth of knowledge you share. I don't feel worthy. I'm sure all of you can play far better than I—I have forgotten so much since I was at my personal peak back in the 60's while still in college with my old "homemade" Vega long neck copy attached to a former banjo mandolin body. I still have that too but I always dreamed of having a banjo like Alex's since I saw it first on Limeliters album covers. I've had the Xcel for about 15 years now.
Hope the photos are helpful and that you enjoy seeing them.
john bange - Posted - 02/07/2012: 07:40:49
this has been the greatest thread...thank you all for the photos
bern21 - Posted - 03/24/2012: 14:47:50
I had a chance to check out Alex's new XCel (with the 24 bracket pot) when the Limeliters played Town Hall in New York, back in the '60s. And, of course, Erik Darling used an early XCel neck on an older (28 bracket) pot. Here is a link to a letter he wrote to me (I knew him from the Weavers days) for my site (soon to be updated and fixed since the old host ruined it) longneckbanjoland.com. I had Monte Hendricks make me an XCel neck (without the holes for Scruggs Pegs) for my old Vega pot with blue abalone, similar to Erik's. (photos below)
longneckbanjoland.com/erikdarling.htm
Regards,
Bern
bern21 - Posted - 03/24/2012: 15:11:03
Here is Alex with his XCel.
Seansvoice - Posted - 03/25/2012: 22:28:58
quote:
Originally posted by bern21
I had a chance to check out Alex's new XCel (with the 24 bracket pot) when the Limeliters played Town Hall in New York, back in the '60s. And, of course, Erik Darling used an early XCel neck on an older (28 bracket) pot. Here is a link to a letter he wrote to me (I knew him from the Weavers days) for my site (soon to be updated and fixed since the old host ruined it) longneckbanjoland.com. I had Monte Hendricks make me an XCel neck (without the holes for Scruggs Pegs) for my old Vega pot with blue abalone, similar to Erik's. (photos below)
longneckbanjoland.com/erikdarling.htm
Regards,
Bern
I can't tell from the photo: Is the Vega Vox tailpiece on Erik's banjo gold or nickel?
bern21 - Posted - 03/26/2012: 09:59:07
It should be an old Waverly, not gold plated.
Regards,
Bern
Seansvoice - Posted - 03/26/2012: 10:43:33
quote:
Originally posted by bern21
It should be an old Waverly, not gold plated.
Regards,
Bern
Look at it more closely: Erik Darling's Excel is fitted with the same tailpiece Bob Gibson's first Vega (pre-Seeger model) had. Here is a closeup of the "I Come For to Sing" album. If you compare Bob's with Erik's they are clearly both Vega Vox tailpieces...Not a Waverly.
Edited by - Seansvoice on 03/26/2012 10:44:11
bern21 - Posted - 03/26/2012: 16:25:21
I think that the problem is that the image is Erik's second XCel. His main one had the Waverly, I believe. I last was close to the instrument in 1960, at the after party from their recording volume 2 at Carnegie Hall. I thought it was a Waverly. I was 14 at the time, so I may be wrong. The image of Bob Gibson's banjo looks like a clamshell. Erik did not have that. Sadly, we can't ask him. Someday, I'll have to post the pictures of Pete's original blonde Vega that I have.
Regards,
Bern
mikehalloran - Posted - 03/26/2012: 20:18:10
>Someday, I'll have to post the pictures of Pete's original blonde Vega that I have.<
Yes, you will!
Pete was given two Vegas. Do you know if both were blonde?
There was a thread a while back about the person who won the banjo in the Sing Out! subscription contest and was upset that he hadn't gotten the one that Pete owned - not understanding he owned two.
Edited by - mikehalloran on 03/26/2012 20:22:17
Seansvoice - Posted - 03/27/2012: 09:41:24
quote:
Originally posted by mikehalloran
>Someday, I'll have to post the pictures of Pete's original blonde Vega that I have.<
Yes, you will!
Pete was given two Vegas. Do you know if both were blonde?
There was a thread a while back about the person who won the banjo in the Sing Out! subscription contest and was upset that he hadn't gotten the one that Pete owned - not understanding he owned two.
A recent Frets article had a closeup of Pete's banjo with the homemade neck. The serial number indicates that the pot was from a 1960 Pete Seeger. I have scratched my head over that...knowing that in "The Incompleat Folksinger" Pete had told Vega that he had a homemade neck with an old tubaphone pot. But then I noticed that the date those words were written coincided with the date that Vega presented him with that first VPS. My feeling is that at some point that pot found its way to Pete's old neck and was replaced by the "The Rainbow Quest" Vega that had the mid-60s "blocked" lettering on the peghead.
Seansvoice - Posted - 03/27/2012: 09:44:07
quote:
Originally posted by mikehalloran
I, too, have a brand new Vega-Pitmann capo in its original box that I got on eBay many years ago. Someone was selling a stash.
I have a Vega-Pitmann stashed away in my stuff ...never opened. I have over the years fallen in love with the Shubb long bar 5th.
bern21 - Posted - 03/27/2012: 19:53:41
Just a bit of information. Vega gave Pete Seeger only one Vega longneck banjo. Rick, who won it, never thought that there were two. I have images of the one, and it has Peter Seeger on the dowel stick and rim. Thanks to Monte Hendricks (an exceptional banjo maker) for the photos.
mikehalloran - Posted - 03/27/2012: 21:11:44
Pete once stated in an interview that Vega gave him two. He then said what happened to each. It will take some digging but I think I know where and when so I should be able to find it.
Edited by - mikehalloran on 03/27/2012 21:12:47
bern21 - Posted - 03/28/2012: 08:43:50
Thanks, I would be interested in that. If anyone has a reprint or other information about the Sing Out contest and the banjo it offered, please post or send me that information.
Thanks to all,
Bern
Deaf Lester Crawdad - Posted - 03/28/2012: 12:12:55
quote:
Originally posted by mikehalloran
The nuts on Vega open backed banjos do stick out a little as you can see on mine.
Depends upon when it was made.
My 1914 Tubaphone pot has the shoes placed circa 3/32" higher than do my later Tubaphone and Whyte Laydie pots, and as a consequence that brings the bottoms of the nuts up perfectly flush with the back of the pot rather than extending out past the rim. I've always wondered if Vega intentionally changed the dimensions at some point, and, if so, why they did it.
To me, it seems contra-productive to have the nuts extending out past the pot -where they're more often subjected to hook-bending impacts.
~Pete
bern21 - Posted - 04/02/2012: 17:43:14
A good photo of Pete's one Vega, on a good site that I haven't seen here, yet.
thecanadasite.com/antiques/banjo.html
Let me know about the Sing Out contest if you have a reprint or know where to view the P.S. banjo contest issue on the Internet.
Regards,
Bern
