Slingerland - Posted - 11/22/2011:  11:01:49

The relationship between the Glenns (Leonard and Clifford) and Frank Proffitt has been debated for some time. After collecting and handling numerous banjos and dulcimers marked by both the Glenns and Frank Proffitt, I have come to the conclusion that having an instrument signed by Frank Proffitt is not enough in itself to identify Frank Proffitt as the maker.

There are several publications that speak of this relationship and mention comments the Glenns have made with regard to it. I have sent Clifford Glenn numerous photos of instruments and have talked with him extensively about the Glenn-Proffitt relationship. Clifford Glenn, upon viewing photos of Frank Proffitt marked banjos, has confirmed that he and his father in fact made specific instruments that are marked Frank Proffitt. Last year, he sent me this letter in response to an inquiry I had.

This is the only direct evidence I am aware of that states the Glenns' opinion of the Glenn-Proffitt relationship. This letter comports with the theory put forward in the publications mentioned above.

For those who don't know, the theory basically is that Proffitt had many orders to fill, but was too busy touring, etc to fill them. Proffitt then contracted with the Glenns to make instruments to which he would sign his name. 

This is not to say that Frank Proffitt made no instruments. There are accounts that he in fact made instruments. At this time, I have only been able to identify one banjo that was without question marked by Frank Proffitt and not made by the Glenns. That banjo is signed by Frank Proffitt and dated 1962. Clifford Glenn, upon viewing photos of the banjo, confirmed that he or his father did NOT make this banjo.

I have documented a banjo purchased from Frank Proffitt in 1963 that is signed as the "personal banjo of Frank Proffitt". In an accompanying letter, Frank Proffitt explains that the banjo was the one he played at a recent concert (at which the original owner was present). Upon careful examination of photos of this banjo, it is identical to Glenn made instruments of the same time period. Clifford examined the photos of this banjo and said that it was made by he or his father. Accepting that the Glenns made this instrument, this means that Frank Proffitt was in fact playing a Glenn instrument on "tour". Proffitt must have felt confident with the quality of the Glenns' work if he signed his name to them and played them in concert!

The 1962 banjo marked Frank Proffitt and the 1963 "tour" banjo marked Frank Proffitt were without a doubt made by different people. The 1962, which Clifford said he and his father did NOT make, is unlike any other Frank Proffitt marked banjo I have seen and is quite crude. The 1963 "tour" banjo, that Clifford says was made by he or his father, is high quality like every other Frank Proffitt marked banjo, other than the one discussed above, that I have been able to document and is indistinguishable from similarly aged Glenn marked instruments.

Clifford is obviously the best living person to answer these questions. Even without having Clifford's input, carefully looking at Frank Proffitt marked instruments other than the 1962 discussed above, leads one to believe that they were all in fact made by the same person/people. Saying your banjo/dulcimer was made by the Glenns is in no way a put down. The Glenns, in my opinion, made the highest quality instruments in the region.

I know I may be stepping on some toes, but this is not my intention. I hope this leads to a great discussion.

Thanks,

Paul

Edited by - Slingerland on 11/22/2011 12:18:30

RG - Posted - 11/22/2011:  12:17:16

Paul-What are the "several publications" that you refer to in your post?  I'd like to read those articles as well...

Edited by - RG on 11/22/2011 12:17:48

Fathand - Posted - 11/22/2011:  12:21:05

I am not sure why you would think you are stepping on toes. It is a very common and legitimate business practice to contract out work to 3rd party suppliers and then apply your own trade mark.  The most common example of this is if you go to the supermarket and buy their store brands, you can be sure that 99 44/100 % of them are made by 3rd party suppliers yet they still bear the store's trademark.   

Slingerland - Posted - 11/22/2011:  12:27:46

Thanks for the comment. I don't have a complete bibliography compiled at the moment, but a great starting point is Ralph Lee Smith's "Appalachian Dulcimer Traditions" and related articles written by Mr. Smith. 

His book is a great read and available directly from the author at the link below.

ralphleesmith.com/booksmusic.html

There has not been an in depth discussion of this relationship anywhere I have seen, but Mr. Smith's work is the closest to that.

Slingerland - Posted - 11/22/2011:  12:32:56

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fathand

I am not sure why you would think you are stepping on toes. It is a very common and legitimate business practice to contract out work to 3rd party suppliers and then apply your own trade mark.  The most common example of this is if you go to the supermarket and buy their store brands, you can be sure that 99 44/100 % of them are made by 3rd party suppliers yet they still bear the store's trademark.   

---

The notion that some instruments marked by Frank Proffit were in fact made by the Glenns has not been accepted by everyone at this point. "It is a very common and legitimate business practice", but in this context it is a bit more touchy. Frank Proffitt has a celebrity mystique that the Glenns currently do not carry. Some may find it to be a disappointment that their banjo was not made by the celebrity. I wouldn't.

cbcarlisle - Posted - 11/22/2011:  12:38:13

It might be instructive to get a good description of the banjer that Frank Proffitt made for Frank Warner in the late 30s. I suspect his son, Jeff, still has it.

Slingerland - Posted - 11/22/2011:  12:42:48

Curt- Are you referring to Frank Warner's famous autographed banjo? That banjo was made by Nathan Hicks, Frank Proffitt's father-in-law, in 1939. (Source: Jeff Warner)

Did Frank Warner have another one made by Frank Proffitt? Jeff has never mentioned it, so I suspect he doesn't have it.

Banjimer - Posted - 11/22/2011:  19:54:18

Lucy Long's dissertation on the Beech Mountain dulcimer tradition also describes the working relationship between the Glenns and Frank Proffitt.

In addition, in the summer of 2002 I took a mountain dulcimer suspected of being a Frank Proffitt dulcimer to both Clifford Glenn and Frank Proffitt, Jr. for their examination.  Clifford said there was no doubt it was made by his father, Leonard Glenn.  Frank Proffitt, Jr. said it was definitely made by his father, Frank Proffitt, Sr.  Since the tuning pegs appear to be original and not like those usually made by the Glenns, I suspect it may be a Frank Proffitt original, but then again the tuning pegs that the Glenns are known for could have been developed after this particular instrument was made.

Clifford also confirmed to me in person that the Glenns made a number of fretless banjos and mountain dulcimers for Frank Proffitt to resell in the early 1960's.

Additional evidence of the Proffitt/Glenn working relationship comes from an order I placed with Frank Proffitt, Jr. for one each of his handcrafted banjos and dulcimers.  When the instruments arrived they had obviously been made by Clifford Glenn, because they were identical to instruments I had ordered from Clifford at the same time.  Frank Proffitt, Jr. had glued his business card over Clifford's markings on the back of the peghead of each instrument.  I wish I still had the dulcimer and banjo, but was forced to sell them a couple of years back when money became tight.  I'm not sure if Clifford was aware that Frank, Jr. had continued the 1960 practice of his father, but in Clifford's case he was in the business of making a profit and a sale and resale was just as profitable as a direct sale would have been.  By the way, Frank, Jr. sold me the two instruments for $250 apiece, the same price Clifford was selling them for, so there was no attempt on Frank, Jr.'s part to profit from Clifford's work.  He was simply trying to fulfill my order with quality instruments.

Greg Gunner

Riga, Michigan

Edited by - Banjimer on 11/22/2011 19:56:53

Slingerland - Posted - 11/22/2011:  20:27:19

Greg- Thanks for sharing.



I would love to hear more about the dulcimer who showed to Clifford and Frank Jr. I believe we have talked about this one in the past, but I have not seen photos of it. Is the dulcimer marked? What pattern is it? Does it have two small tacks (nails) in between the nut and the first fret on the fretboard? (They would run perpendicular to the nut and first fret.)



Thanks!

Edited by - Slingerland on 11/22/2011 20:32:06

TwoTrax - Posted - 11/27/2011:  17:52:08

Greg, your point about Frank Jr. not making a profit from Clifford's instruments doesn't exactly confirm that Clifford charged Frank Jr. retail price.  It could have been a cooperative effort wherein Frank Jr. made somewhat of a commission on the sale of Glenn instruments?  Or maybe Clifford cut Frank Jr. a break on them.  Clifford is not at all a greedy person and would trust just about anyone, so I don't think there was any animosity between the two.  There are many possibilities as to your transaction with both men.

Slingerland - Posted - 11/28/2011:  21:49:55

Good point. In any event, I think Clifford was giving them away for $250 a piece. I recently purchased what will be the last banjo he made. It is unfinished as of Aug 2011. I also purchased all of the Glenns' instrument patterns (including the original dulcimer pattern taken from the 1880s Eli Presnell dulcimer) and about all of their partially completed odds and ends.

Clifford is no longer able to make instruments (Leonard stopped in 1991 and died in 1997), but he is still in good spirits.

TwoTrax - Posted - 11/29/2011:  19:17:51

I agree with the point that Clifford was generously giving them away for that price,

Slingerland - Posted - 12/02/2011:  14:21:38

Another topic I am exploring is the number of instruments the Glenns made. I've asked Clifford both in person and in writing, and have gotten different answers. So I'd like to hear from you about your impressions of how active/busy the Glenns were at the time the Glenns were making your instrument(s) or your impressions from visiting, etc.

Banjimer - Posted - 12/10/2011:  11:00:14

The dulcimer I showed to both Clifford Glenn and Frank Proffitt, Jr. in the Summer of 2002 is one made in the "Nathan Hicks Pattern". The dulcimer pattern is identical to the dulcimer I own that is labeled as a 1970 Leonard Glenn with one exception. The Glenn instruments are well-known for their handmade, thick, stubby pegs, usually made of walnut. My 1970 Leonard Glenn dulcimer is made with the thick, stubby walnut pegs typical of the Glenn instruments. The other Frank Proffitt/Leonard Glenn dulcimer has no distinguishing marks of any kind. However, two of the pegs appear to be original and they are of a narrower style than those typically found on Glenn instruments, leading me to one of two conclusions. Either it is a Frank Proffitt original or the Glenns changed the style of their tuning pegs sometime between 1963 and 1970.

By the way, in answer to your questions the fretboard does have two small nails between the nut and the first fret.

The Frank Proffitt/Leonard Glenn dulcimer was purchased used from Elderly Instruments and came in an old case. Someone had handwritten inside the case the name of the original owner, Julie Ann Lepeschkin", her addresses in Burlington, Vermont and Sturgis, Michigan, and the name "Frank Proffitt 1963".

Mrs. Lepeschkin is deceased. I wrote to one of her daughters asking about the dulcimer's origins, but never received a response. An internet search confirmed that Mrs. Lepeschkin did indeed live in Burlington, Vermont where she was a prominent member of a Unitarian Church. She and her husband left some money to the church, and the church library is named after Mrs. Lepeschkin.

The Lepeschkins later moved to Michigan. I contacted the church in Vermont to ask if anyone remembered her, but the current pastor knew of no one who remembered Mrs. Lepeschkin.

When I showed the instrument to Frank Proffitt, Jr. he identified it as one made by his father. However, when I showed it to Clifford Glenn while attending Mountain Dulcimer week at Cullowhee, he identified it as an instrument made by his father.

The Glenns were so adept at duplicating the Hicks pattern, that it is virtually impossible to distinguish whether Frank Proffitt or Leanord Glenn actually made this dulcimer. The difference in tuning pegs offers a clue that it may be a Frank Proffitt dulcimer rather than a Leonard Glenn dulcimer, but like I said previously, the Glenns may also have changed the design of their tuning pegs between 1963 and 1970.

Greg

Slingerland - Posted - 12/10/2011:  13:50:58

Hi Greg-

Thanks for the info! Here is a photo of dulcimer that was purchased from Leonard Glenn in 1962. Notice the atypical peghead shape. Did your "1963 Proffitt" have this style peghead or the more traditional Glenn style?

The banjo I have that was made by Leonard in the 1940s-50s has very narrow pegs. My 1964 Clifford Glenn banjo has thicker pegs, but are slighter narrower than typical Glenn pegs (like the pegs in the above photo). My 1973 Leonard Glenn dulcimer has the typical thick pegs, as does my 1982 Leonard Glenn banjo and my "2011" Clifford Glenn banjo. My 1993 Clifford Glenn dulcimer has guitar style tuners.

Two Trax's 1978 and 1991 Clifford Glenn dulcimers have mechical pegs.

As a side note, I have all of Glenn's patterns they used in their instrument production (including the "Stranger from the West" dulcimer pattern Leonard made in the 1950s and the old "Nathan Hicks" dulcimer pattern).

Slingerland - Posted - 02/20/2012:  08:10:44

I spoke to Clifford Glenn this morning, and he gave me a bit more insight into the Glenn/Proffitt relationship. Clifford said that Proffitt would come to them with specific requests for instruments, which the Glenns would then fill. From this, I think it is logical to conclude that Proffitt would take orders for specific instruments (curly maple, walnut, etc) from customers and then go to the Glenns to fill those orders. It wasn't a situation where the Glenns were sending random instruments to Proffitt. Unfortunately, the Glenns did not keep records for the instruments they made. Please keep in mind that is it well documented that Proffitt in fact made some instruments. At this time, the "1962" banjo discussed in my original post is the only Proffitt marked instrument that was without question NOT made by the Glenns.

Clifford said that both he and his father made instruments for Proffitt. He emphasized that at NO time did Proffitt work in the shop with them. He also said that they only delivered finished instruments to Proffitt; none were sent partially finished for Proffitt to complete.

Clifford also said it would be very difficult to tell which instruments were made by him versus ones made by his father. He also said that he and his father always worked individually (with Clifford at the front of the shop and Leonard towards the back). In other words, if you have a banjo marked by Clifford, Leonard did not have a hand in building it (and vice versa). Also, if you have a Glenn made Proffitt marked instrument, it could have either been made by Leonard or Clifford.

beezaboy - Posted - 02/20/2012:  15:26:07

Thanks for sharing the history and derivation of Proffitt banjos.

For those that like the "mountain" banjo style I think the Proffitt banjos are special as they were handmade in the U.S. (no matter the actual maker).

Jim D - Posted - 02/21/2012:  09:20:44

John... I think the term "Proffitt banjo" is a misnomer, as it implies he either originated the style or was a noted manufacturer, while he was neither. I would opt for something like: Mountain Banjo, or Appalachian Mountain Banjo, both being more accurate.

That said... back in the early 1980s I bought 2 dulcimers and a banjo from Stanley Hicks and was involved in the purchase of another of Stanley's banjos by a friend of mine. I went to pick up the instruments in all four cases... a thinly disguised excuse to visit with him. But that's another story.

On the occasion of my first visit to pick up a dulcimer, I brought up the name of a Watauga County local who was known a dulcimer builder. Stanley told me that particular builder had a reputation for taking credit for things others did, including those who had been instrumental (pun not intended) in teaching him how to make dulcimers. That discussion led to Stanley telling me of the Glenns/Proffitt  banjo relationship. It was apparently well known that Frank wasn't a particularly prolific instrument maker, and that most, if not all, of the banjos he sold were products of the Glenn family.

Jim

Edited by - Jim D on 02/21/2012 09:21:26

beezaboy - Posted - 02/21/2012:  10:04:35

Jim - Thanks for the correct nomenclature for the physical style of banjo often associated with Frank Proffitt.  See attached.

I am definitely more confortable referring to the type as "Mountain Banjo".  And I think your idea "Appalachian Mountain Banjo" is probably best.

There probably are banjos that originated in the Ozarks and elsewhere that have different characteristics from the Appalachian variety.

I used the term "Proffitt" banjo loosely because of his fame and apparently a phrase used by others: bluestemstrings.com/pageFPMB1.html 

Frank Proffitt

Slingerland - Posted - 02/22/2012:  08:00:18

John- I'm glad that you are now a card carrying member of the Watauga Co. Club.

Jim- Thanks for sharing!

Slingerland - Posted - 02/26/2012:  13:17:44

Here is a great video of Pete Seeger playing what certainly appears to be a Glenn banjo. Pete no longer has the banjo and does not know its whereabouts. He thinks he may have given it to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, but isn't sure.

youtube.com/watch?v=VucczIg98Gw

Edited by - Slingerland on 02/26/2012 13:21:53

Slingerland - Posted - 02/27/2012:  09:19:38

Here are some wonderfully detailed photos of Pete Seeger's mountain banjo. It is clearly a Glenn, IMO (based on the peghead shape, tuner shape, less than 90 degree neck joint attachment, and overall appearance).

flickr.com/photos/bjacques/set...27214066/

Edited by - Slingerland on 02/27/2012 09:31:57