beezaboy - Posted - 01/21/2011:  08:45:01

---

The now famous B&D Silver Bell tenor banjo was introduced
in June-August 1923. It had a 17 fret neck.
At that time the Paramount had a 19 fret neck.
When did Bacon Co. introduce the 19 fret neck?
It's hard to tell from this 1924 ad:
arcade-museum.com/mtr/MTR-1924...11-59.pdf

Mumble Peg - Posted - 01/21/2011:  10:01:34

---

I blew up the pic and tried to sharpen it, but it's too blurry to count the frets.

Using the 11" head as a reference, I think it is the short scale.

beezaboy - Posted - 01/21/2011:  12:03:16

---

Thanks, Wayne, I was afraid of that.
I'm sure someone here knows when Bacon first offered
the 19 fret neck.

NYCJazz - Posted - 01/21/2011:  12:21:48

---

Ed knows...

but he's not saying!

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 01/21/2011:  13:45:39

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beezaboy

...It's hard to tell from this 1924 ad:
arcade-museum.com/mtr/MTR-1924...11-59.pdf

---

Hi Beeze-

The tenor in that 'set' of banjos IS a 17-fret tenor.
Easy to see, on a good copy of it.

Go to my copy of my presentation slide with the 3 lists:
hangoutstorage.com/banjohangou...12011.jpg

If your browser will zoom -- zoom in as far as you can.
If not -- copy the jpg, open it a photo editor, and zoom way in.

The inlay markers on neck, near the rim are at 10, 12, 15,
and... 17 (right next to the rim.)

Bacon DID use a similar 'trio' pose, when they came out with
the 14-fret necks. But the holes in the outside of the tonering
were gone by that time.

Another hint...
Look for early Montana's with f-hole flanges. The Montana
"Special" No.1 was Bacon's "hi-tech" players' banjo. (It cost
more $ than the 'standard' Montana No.1.)

All of the NEW innovations, and accessories -- like geared tuners,
Oettiger tailpieces, soft pedals, etc. showed-up
FIRST, on:
...o the High-end models
...o the Montana No.1 Specials

IF you think about it.... There was a very SIGNIFICANT
introduction, of instruments, one particular year.

Those, seek Padawan, first...
From proto-development, figure then, you should...


Best-
Ed Britt

---

Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 01/21/2011 13:48:50

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/22/2011:  00:11:37

---

Ed,

quote:

---

Bacon DID use a similar 'trio' pose, when they came out with the 1419-fret necks. But the holes in the outside of the tonering were gone by that time.

Another hint...
Look for early Montana's with f-hole flanges.

---

Sorry - but NO! The first 19-fret Silver Bell´s in my extended database have round hole flanges and holes in-/outside tone rings.



Polle

beezaboy - Posted - 01/22/2011:  03:50:15

---

quote:

---

The first 19-fret Silver Bell´s in my extended database have round hole flanges and holes in-/outside tone rings.

---

And, pray tell, what is the serial number of that instrument?

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/22/2011:  04:34:56

---

John,

Sorry - I´ll keep this for myself for now - I´m in the middle of a research regarding this and other B&D/Bacon topics.

For now you´ll have relating only to my remark in another thread:

Bacon started increasing the long scale to 23" and the number of frets to 19 on some SB styles/versions/grades only ½ year after building the first "genuine" Silver Bells.

Another indeed interesting remark could be:

After the introduction of the 19-fret 23" version Bacon continued building 17-fret 22" Silver Bell tenors on a steady basis for 3-4 years - in spite of and including general changes in design and construction.



Polle

---

Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 01/22/2011 04:53:51

beezaboy - Posted - 01/22/2011:  05:07:01

---

quote:

---

Sorry - I´ll keep this for myself for now

---

As you wish. No offense here. You have been exceedingly
generous with your hard earned knowledge.

Of course, some of us have also been quite forthcoming and
generally ascribe to the philosophy: Better to give than receive.
banjohangout.org/article/7
The Vega modern banjo, for example, see attachments.

---

Edited by - beezaboy on 01/22/2011 05:07:43

Cadenza Aug. 1923 "Vegaphone Banjos"

Vegaphone Depicted - Sept 1923

Vegaphone Text - Nov. 1923

Baconfine - Posted - 01/22/2011:  08:36:21

---

it is very easy but tricky? . see on Intermountain banjo -4833 Bacon & Day Silver Bell #2 Tenor Banjo 1924 serial #12899 Short-scale, 18 frets, carved heel, silver-plated, round-hole flange
than go to Polle data list and you know more -
but by the way it very foogy - the only is that the most of 17 frets SB have mostly round hole flange but always a Presto tailpiece.
So far I know
Joachim

quote:

---

Originally posted by beezaboy

The now famous B&D Silver Bell tenor banjo was introduced
in June-August 1923. It had a 17 fret neck.
At that time the Paramount had a 19 fret neck.
When did Bacon Co. introduce the 19 fret neck?
It's hard to tell from this 1924 ad:
arcade-museum.com/mtr/MTR-1924...11-59.pdf

---

beezaboy - Posted - 01/22/2011:  11:28:37

---

quote:

---

but by the way it very foogy

---

I agree 100%.
And, we are not alone.
In one of the few articles about the B&D tenor banjo the
author notes the 1923 introduction of the Silver Bell with
its 17 fret neck then states the banjo had some "growing
up" to do before reaching the status of the reknown Silver
Bell "yet to come".

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 01/22/2011:  11:32:47

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe
Ed,

quote:

---

Bacon DID use a similar 'trio' pose, when they came out with the 1419-fret necks.
But the holes in the outside of the tonering were gone by that time.

Another hint...
Look for early Montana's with f-hole flanges.

---

Sorry - but NO!
The first 19-fret Silver Bell´s in my extended database have round hole
flanges and holes in-/outside tone rings. ...

---

Hi Polle --
Thanks for the correction. I did mean '19' -- 14 was a typo.

I'll agree that the earliest 19-fret SB's had round hole flanges -- they would have the
1/2"dia holes, at that point.

I was trying to prevent confusion between the earlier 17-fret "trio" graphic, and a later
19-fret "trio" graphic, that exists... (Don't have it at hand.)



You'll have to pardon me... It's been about 6 years since I went through the mid-20's
history, gathering Bacon info. And even then, it was just to get 'highlights' -- to come
back to, later.

My study of the "Bacon Transitional Banjos: 1920-1925" DOES include the introduction
of the 'modern' Silverbells (19-frets, f-hole flange, armrest, geared pegs, Oettinger
tailpiece, and the Soft Pedal) -- and stops just after the introduction of the NPU No.6.

THAT is the SPECIFIC early period, of David Day's creativity, that I have been working
on -- for over 25 years.

My presentation in 2009 was LONG overdue. So, while I briefly covered early Bacon
history,and later Silver Bell history (to the NU6) -- I was forced to narrow my focus to
the specifics of the period from early-1921 to mid-1923:

...o the incorporation of the Bacon Banjo Co., Inc.
...o the opening of the Groton works, the building, and its current condition.
...o the initial evolution from the Bacon Orchestra Banjo to the early 1/2-spun Blue Ribbon
...o the possible collaboration between David Day and Fred Bacon -- BEFORE Day's arrival
...o the events transpiring at Vega, which were the probable causes for Day leaving...
...o the evolution from the 1/2-spun BRs to the full spun Supertone/Super Blue Ribbons
...o the addition of the "extended flange" and "amplfier back" (the Silver Bell resonator)
...o the confusing absurdity of the 1923-1924 catalog
...o the three new B&D Peghead deisgns for the Blue Bell, Super Banjo, and Silver Bell
...o the delay of the Silver Bell and the introduction of the Blue Bell and Super banjo.
...o Mike Sheidlmeier's role as test-pilot for the Bacon Tenor banjos, and effect on design.
...o The Silver Bell's late introduction -- early-June in Chicago, by Scheidlmeier.

and---
...o The final printing and delivery of the 1923-24 catalog
...o The development of the expanded B&D line, and subsequent improvements
...o Ray Colman ("Montana") and his role in the next phases of expansion.


As a result, I had 'blinders' on for anything else that was NOT on-topic (i.e. -- what the
OTHER banjo companies were doing) unless it DIRECTLY impacted the story of the Silver
Bell's development.

I did, and still do, have a very wide knowledge of the industry 'forces' from 1920 to
1925. But simply don't have all the fine details at my fingertips -- the way I do for The
Bacon Co., from 1921 to mid-'23. If it's not related to my major focus -- I set it aside,
to delve-into later.

I have an ocean of information about banjo history -- with wide knowledge, ranging
from the 1600's to the present. (I don't carry the details around in my head... But I do
know where to find them, when I NEED to...)

David L. Day, and his work on the B&D Silver Bell, is my "Mariana Trench" of information.
It's very deep, and intense. And there's also a LOT of 'flotsam and jetsam' that I have to
brush aside -- while on MY hunt for Mr. Day's Treasure.

Don't worry... I should get to the 'modern' 19-fret Bacon's, and the NPU6, by the end
of the decade...

I'll keep you informed, as I paddle along...


Best-
Ed Britt

EDIT:
PS -- Apologies... I forgot. There are TWO simultaneous Topics on early Silver Bells.
This post relates more to the OTHER topic -- where I posted some small portions
of my 2009 presentation. See: banjohangout.org/topic/197047/#2501791

EB

---

Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 01/22/2011 15:32:52

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/22/2011:  12:20:36

---

Ed,

I´ll patiently wait for your comeback - and yes - the early 20s period is the absolutely most interesting part of the Groton history.

quote:

---

the possible collaboration between David Day and Fred Bacon -- BEFORE Day's arrival

---

I´ll like to hear more about this - I do see traces of such an "un-timely" co-work myself.

Regards

Polle

beezaboy - Posted - 01/22/2011:  18:19:58

---

19 fret Silver Bell?
arcade-museum.com/mtr/MTR-1925...18-42.pdf

beezaboy - Posted - 01/22/2011:  19:21:08

---

Polle:
B&D Silver Bell sighted in Denmark (1926)!
arcade-museum.com/mtr/MTR-1926...21-34.pdf

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/23/2011:  00:23:31

---

John,

Thanks for the links - they are indeed interesting.

The first for showing a 19 fret SB with an Oettinger tailpiece. It will most likely also have a soft pedal mute and geared pegs. If so - an example of the second last version of a classic SB. This came late 1924 (related to my database) - the magazine is from may 1925 - again a fine fit.

The second for demonstrating, that US pro-banjos were rare and expensive in DK/Europe in the 20s - today they are only expensive. LOL!

We had to build our own banjos back then - a few were more or less copies of some US brands - but most got their own designs and constructions.

I own f.ex. a sophisticated german ESTE - a 23" tenor from 1925/26 - silver plated - with neck of Rio palisander and resonator of Cuba mahogany - two wood sorts, that today can´t be purchased.

Polle

PS!
From the another parallel thread:

I´m in the process documenting the earliest 19 fret SB´s - for now I can - with the use of these skills, the round figures above and the SN´s - set the date for their production to late 1923.

BTW - the latest documented 17 fret SB has SN 20196 - which puts it to mid 1926 - meaning that Bacon manufactured both a 17 and a 19 fret version for 3-4 years. This fact is well documented in my extended database. There was obviously a demand for both versions in the mid 20s.

I think, that a lot of the previous confusion regarding Bacon´s introduction of 19 fret tenors is caused by this fact - some experts may have met/seen only/mostly the 17 fret SB version from this period.

---

Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 01/23/2011 03:13:21

beezaboy - Posted - 01/23/2011:  04:36:12

---

Polle:
I want to show you something.
1st photo - First ever mention of "Silver Bell" in Cadenza Dec. 1923.
2nd photo - First Bacon ad devoted to "Silver Bell" Cadenza Feb 1924.
17 fret variety depicted.
Music Trade review:
Jan 5 1924 - "Silver Bell" ad. Extended fretboard with 18 frets to rim
22 frets overall. See for yourself.
arcade-museum.com/mtr/MTR-1924...-1-38.pdf
July 1924 - Feb 1925 - 17 fret Silver Bell ad appears almost monthly.
(Feb 1925 ad shown here)
arcade-museum.com/mtr/MTR-1925...-6-39.pdf
Dec. 1924 - New Catalog announced - called "1924-1925 Booklet".
Thirty-Two pages in color and depicts "Silver Bell" 1-2-3 models.
arcade-museum.com/mtr/MTR-1925...-1-32.pdf
May 2, 1925 - Bacon ad with 19 fret "modern" resonator/flange "Silver Bell"
arcade-museum.com/mtr/MTR-1925...18-42.pdf
The flange is quite different. Not round holes or f-holes.

---

Edited by - beezaboy on 01/23/2011 04:56:41

Cadenza Dec. 1923

Cadenza Feb. 1924

beezaboy - Posted - 01/23/2011:  04:44:24

---

Polle

quote:

---

Oettinger tailpiece.

---

Here is article about Silver Bell Oettinger tailpiece for your files.
arcade-museum.com/mtr/MTR-1925...25-39.pdf

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/23/2011:  04:45:29

---

John,

Thanks for the links - I do however not see any contradictions of my statement(s).

Polle

Bjorn Koch - Posted - 01/23/2011:  06:42:18

---

Regarding B & D,
I do beleive I have a 1924 or 25 number 1 with roundhole flange and 19 fret. The number is 12741. Have to be one of the earlier 19 fret necks they made.
Bjorn

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 01/23/2011:  06:42:54

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe

John,
Thanks for the links - I do however not see any contradictions of my statement(s).

---

Hi John --

I also appreciate the links to the ads and artcles you're finding. The large,
elongated flange holes -- I had NOT seen that before. And that's VERY
interesting!

I can tell you, that it was never put into production... It's either an 'experiment',
or a owner's custom order. (You should also be aware that Gibson introduced
their full-resonated Mastertone in 1925 -- with large elongated holes... And that
could have been a factor.)

But Day already KNEW he had to enlarge the flange holes. He had already done
it twice on the round hole models -- starting with 1/4" holes, then to 3/8", and
then to 1/2".

The f-hole flange was Day's way to get a larger opening (port) while still having
some aesthetic finesse. (Which HE considered a requirement...)

(Chuck Ogbury took the same route with OME. Starting with a round-hole
flange, because it was CHEAPER. Then moving to an ornamental hole, when
he could afford the tooling. I refined the OME flange hole, back in 1990, and
needed to create an aesthetic design -- that STILL provided "x square inches"
of opening.)


You are doing a great service to other readers, who probably haven't seen
any of this info. And I share your joy in finding new information, and making
'connections' between ideas.

But I also agree with Polle. With the exception of seeing that Bacon TRIED the
elongated flange holes -- after 30 years, I'm aware of much of it. (Even If I can't
always remember the exact dates.) So, it doesn't substantially conflict with
anything I've said, either. Yet, you seem to keep trying to convince us otherwise.

There CAN be ambiguity -- without being 'wrong'.

Here's an example:

quote:

---

Originally posted by beezaboy

...I want to show you something.
1st photo - First ever mention of "Silver Bell" in Cadenza Dec. 1923.
2nd photo - First Bacon ad devoted to "Silver Bell" Cadenza Feb 1924.
17 fret variety depicted. ...

---

I believe you -- that those were "the first ever" photos and ads, in THOSE
publications. And that data creates important 'markers' in our timelines...

However, OTHER material (written or physical) exists, from non-public sources
-- which documents the existence of prototypical instruments, and 'first article'
production pieces, being made -- and shown to the public -- BEFORE the dates
of those ads. (You have some Gretsch banjos that I had never seen before...)

THAT is what archival sources are for. They provide ADDITIONAL information,
that was not always common-knowledge, or published. (And there's lots of
tedious 'slogging' that goes with an archival search.)

ALL researchers -- academic, commercial, or enthusiast -- 'protect' their data,
information and sources, until they can publish their findings.

In THIS venue... there IS a good collaborative atmosphere -- where information
IS shared, discussed, and disseminated. And we should work to keep it that way.
(Many eyes make for less work...)

But there will always be a few 'special items' -- which are discreetly kept at the back
of the drawer.


Best-
Ed Britt

---

Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 01/23/2011 07:05:14

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 01/23/2011:  07:58:30

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bjorn Koch

Regarding B & D,
I do beleive I have a 1924 or 25 number 1 with roundhole flange and 19 fret. The number is 12741. Have to be one of the earlier 19 fret necks they made.
Bjorn

---

Hi Bjorn --

A few questions:
1. What is the diameter of the holes?
2. Is the back of the resonator smooth? Or does it have raised rings?
3. Do the serial numbers match -- on the rim and the dowel?

The serials should match numerically, and should be stamped by
the same digit stamps (punches).

Can you post a few photos?

Thanks!

Best-
Ed Britt

---

Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 01/26/2011 20:21:45

beezaboy - Posted - 01/23/2011:  09:29:31

---

quote:

---

Yet, you seem to keep trying to convince us otherwise.

---

Hi Ed:
No. I only have one agenda. And you're to blame!
In one of our debates about the place of Farris in the hx of the tenor
banjo you suggested I either research or write about Lange's contribution to the "modern" tenor banjo. Well, I've been working
at it for several months. It's the story of the tenor banjo 1900-2011 told in only about 7000 words. I have a draft that I like that entertwines music (ragtime, jazz and swing) and dancing (cakewalk, turkey trot, tango, foxtrot, charleston, black bottom, etc) and tenor banjo (oldie 17 fret to modern 19 fret w/ rhinestones to boot). I like to annotate with documentation from the written literature to support the text [92 endnotes in the essay so far] and that's why I'm always looking for and testing sources and statements which may be why
I sound contrary.

So, the tone of some of my posts were driven by my desire to get facts and were not then, nor are they now, meant to be argumentative.
Now, admittedly some of my posts sound like cross-examination. I call it "thrashing" and sometimes it works although I often get my hat handed to me for eating. See for example:
banjohangout.org/topic/195952

Never the less, my motive is to learn. And learn I do. I also try to pay back the generosity I receive here by posting what I've learned.
At the core I'm most always smiling inside because knowing about
the banjo is fun to me.

So, color me harmless.
Best,
John

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/23/2011:  11:52:44

---

John, Ed & Others,

Are you ready for true story about one of those thrilling experiences, that life can give you? Well – this was for me at least.

Back home from a gathering with kids and grand children this afternoon I saw John´s link to the Oettinger article – it had crossed my latest posting. Reading the article gave me at once goosebumps – I could sense a miracle – like finding the real Holy Grail.

Aha – here we have a fixed date in the B&D/Bacon history – and even more interesting - the mentioned Oettinger/Bacon deal had to do with SILVER and GOLD plated tailpieces – not the common nickel plated ones.


The last part first – why on earth silver and gold, but not nickel? My answer - simply because Bacon did already have the standard nickel´s in stock. See about this later in this posting!


Now to the date for the deal - late may/early june 1925 - when Bacon had decided to equip all future Silver Bell´s with Oettingers – well, I/we knew about this in advance – but an exact date?


Here comes the goosebumps into the picture – I realized at once, that this date would confirm the accuracy of my general database.

1925 – the general database tells, that this year started/ended with the serial numbers appr. 15000 and 18750. In late may/early june that year Bacon would have got to appr. SN 16550.

Now open my extended database, that contains a lot of details – HEUREKA – from SN 16487 and forward ALL Silver Bell´s were equipped with Oettingers – plus soft pedal mutes!

Well – isn´t this precision work? It should give you goosebumps as well! Do you need more proof for my reliability?


Back to part one – what about those nickel´s?

Study the extended database once more – Aha – from mid/late 1924 Bacon equipped some Silver Bell´s with an Oettinger and a soft pedal mute.

So they did purchase these tailpieces prior to the 1925 deal – they would most likely even have them in stock – and most likely in the common nickel version – and the very few ones meant for SB´s grade 2 and higher would most likely become silver or gold plated on top - along with the other metal parts for these banjos.

So my guess/answer will be – the first delivery of Oettingers after the deal was made contained only silver and gold plated examples – because Bacon did already have nickel´s in stock!

John - you made my day - thanks!



Polle

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/23/2011:  12:17:22

---

Bjorn,

I already had your banjo in my database - including the 19 fret info. I´ve now put you in as the reference for her. See acoustudio.dk/BD_and_Bacon_database.html

The accuracy of the database is well proven/documented - see my posting above - on basis of it I can tell, that your banjo is from the spring 1924.

She´s an early 19-fretter - however there are a few sisters up to ½ year ahead of her.



Polle

---

Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 01/23/2011 12:18:36

beezaboy - Posted - 01/23/2011:  14:36:03

---

quote:

---

John - you made my day - thanks!

---

You're welcome.
Now if I can just find an article about Gretsch B&D tailpieces. Hmmmm.

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 01/23/2011:  15:54:22

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beezaboy

quote:

---

John - you made my day - thanks!

---

You're welcome.
Now if I can just find an article about Gretsch B&D tailpieces. Hmmmm.

---

Hi Beeze--
I assume you're talking about the 'window-latch" tailpiece. Only info I can
offer is that Gretsch supposedly bought the original tooling -- that Lange used
for the Paramounts and Orpheums.

I believe (not positive) that Paramount went bankrupt during the Depression.
So, I don't know WHO owned the tooling after that. Perhaps the metal-stamping
company, that Lange used, kept it... Or perhaps Grover, or Waverly, wound up
with it.

Have you found-out anything about Paramount's demise? (I never checked on it.)

Best-
Ed Britt

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 01/23/2011:  16:03:32

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe
John, Ed & Others,

... this afternoon I saw John´s link to the Oettinger article – ... like finding the real Holy Grail.

Aha – here we have a fixed date in the B&D/Bacon history – and even more interesting - the mentioned Oettinger/Bacon deal had to do with SILVER and GOLD plated tailpieces – not the common nickel plated ones. ...

... I realized at once, that this date would confirm the accuracy of my general database.

1925 – the general database tells, that this year started/ended with the serial numbers appr. 15000 and 18750. In late may/early june that year Bacon would have got to appr. SN 16550.

Now open my extended database, that contains a lot of details – HEUREKA – from SN 16487 and forward ALL Silver Bell´s were equipped with Oettingers – plus soft pedal mutes!

Well – isn´t this precision work? It should give you goosebumps as well! Do you need more proof for my reliability? ...

---

Congratulations, Polle.

It's always great to get some solid validation for your research.
And "Thanks!" to John -- for realizing it was an important documentation of a milestone.

Best-
Ed Britt

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/23/2011:  22:18:27

---

John,

Regarding the Gretsch´s - I hope any day, that some more confirmed first sales will pop up - making it possible sorting out the different SN sequences.

For some of the Groton´s the proud first owner wrote the exact date of purchase on the label inside the resonator - for some I have the reciepts - for some I have the date of delivery/hand-over from Bacon - for some I have the full provenience - etc. etc.

There will have to exist some more Post-Groton´s with any of these sort of documentations. Owners - please report them!


Ed,

Yes - and a fascinating thrill on top - bringing new motivation.

BTW - haven´t you always mentioned/claimed, that the revised Silver Bell - including Oettinger, mute and geared pegs came mid 1925? Well - now we have the proof for a statement like that!



Polle

PS!
BTW - one of the Groton´s - a Montana #1 tenor - has an additional and indeed special writing inside the resonator. A list of 14 women - including their status: single, engaged or married. Written directly at the silver painted surface with a pencil - and refreshed after some years - one of the women with a new status: dead!

It´s free for anyone to speculate about the reason for him having this list inside his banjo.

He was a wellknown tenor player, who in the early 30s played with Eddie Peabody. I have somewhere in my archives a picture of him climbing the tower of the Fox Theatre in St. Louis - Peabody had persuaded him doing this and playing the Montana out over the roofs and the city - as an ad for the afternoons show.

I have the full story about him and the banjo - from day one in april 1927, when he brought it home in an open Ford and was shouted at by his mom - because he had spent so much money - till his 90s, when he used it only for playing/singing Christmas carols for his great grand children.

After his dead it came to me - inclusive of story, pics and the "list".

beezaboy - Posted - 01/24/2011:  05:42:48

---

quote:

---

Have you found-out anything about Paramount's demise? (I never checked on it.)

---

Nothing in the print sources.
Tsurma's 1940's book suggests 1935 but doesn't say it.
The Vintage Guitar Price Guide suggests 1935 and sort of says it.
But this fellow says 1939 and the way he says struck me as sounding
accurate - banjo "intuition"??

freespace.virgin.net/dennis.ta...Lange.htm

Admittedly, not stellar research...but it is a citation if needed.

Here on BHO the topic came up. One post said 1936.
banjohangout.org/archive/143205

---

Edited by - beezaboy on 01/24/2011 06:33:15

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 01/24/2011:  13:43:53

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beezaboy

... But this fellow says 1939 and the way he says struck me as sounding
accurate - banjo "intuition"??

freespace.virgin.net/dennis.ta...Lange.htm

Admittedly, not stellar research...but it is a citation if needed. ...

---

Hi Beeze --
That text was 'borrowed", -- almost totally, and without proper attribution -- from
the A.P. Sharpe series, originally by UK banjo enthusiast, Terry Holland:
tallypaul.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk...abjo1.htm

His intro:
"American Banjo Makers’ was abstracted from the The Banjo Story by
A.P.Sharpe serialised in the B.M.G.Magazine 1971-1973"

AP sharpe spent years corresponding with banjoists and banjo makers
for his series of Articles in the BMG. I have a copy of a handwritten reply
to Sharpe -- from DL Day. So Sharpe WAS working from good information --
even it it was only 'remembrances' from his contacts.

There ARE mistakes in his short pieces. But it's still one of the best overall
'digests' (abstract, synopses) of British and American makers. A good place
for 'newbies' to get basic info.

Best-
Ed Britt

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 01/24/2011:  14:44:29

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe

... For some of the Groton´s the proud first owner wrote the exact date of purchase
on the label inside the resonator - for some I have the reciepts - for some I have the date
of delivery/hand-over from Bacon - for some I have the full provenience - etc. etc.
...

---

Hi Polle --

Yes, I use the same method, when I come across a banjo that is clearly
'documented' by the original owner.

Now that we have spent a LOT of time validating the 'end' of production in
Groton -- I'm going to PRESENT you with THE serial number, that I've used
for 30 years, to 'target' the Hurricane...

Background:
The mother of my high school best friend (and physics lab partner) got a
Silver Bell Serenader, as a present for Christmas 1938. She told me she
went with her mother to purchase the banjo, along with a series of lesson
-- from Stephen St. John of Schenectady. She said that it was either
Christmas week, 1938 -- or the first week of January, 1939.

The serial number of her B&D Serenader is SN 34868.

In the early 1980s, I learned in that the Hurricane of Sept. 1938 wiped-out
Bacon. (And NOT just The Depression -- as had been written many times!)

When I found that out -- I realized my friend's mother's B&D must have
been one of the LAST B&D banjos made.

Stephen St John was Bacon's BIGGEST dealer for many years. He was
awarded several prizes from Bacon, for being their top dealer. He had a
well-known and popular music school -- and led banjo and fretted
orchestras with over 350 students! (One of his student orchestras played
at Madison Square Garden!)

A B&D Serenader No.1 would NOT have sat around very long, at St. John's.
If my friend's mom got her banjo directly from him -- I assumed it had
probably been produced, and delivered, some time in the spring or summer
of 1938 -- in time for the Fall semester.

So I've always targeted SN 35500 as the approximate time of the Hurricane.
See my 2003 article on the Mugwumps website:mugwumps.com/BaconSerialNumbers.html

In the last couple of years, Polle and I have agreed on approximately #35700
as the end of production for the Groton-made Bacons (35701 is the highest
serial Polle has seen.)

So, that would push back the production date of #35868 somewhat.
(Polle has that number in 1937... And he has a better idea of Bacon
production rates, these days...)

quote:

---

Ed,
... BTW - haven´t you always mentioned/claimed, that the revised Silver Bell - including Oettinger,
mute and geared pegs came mid 1925? Well - now we have the proof for a statement like that!

---

Thanks Polle -- I appreciate the validation!

Best-
Ed Britt

---

Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 01/24/2011 14:46:00

beezaboy - Posted - 01/24/2011:  14:52:42

---

Hi Ed:
Oh man...A.P. Sharpe!!!
Thank you One Million for that link.
I have many BMG magazines from ebay.
But not these issues, of course.
I've been looking for these BMG's with Sharpe's summary for over a year.
Had no idea a good sport put them on line.
Who'd thunk.
Thanks again...You made my day!
John

---

Edited by - beezaboy on 01/24/2011 14:54:02

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/24/2011:  19:06:09

---

Ed,

Only last week I got a report of one of the latest:

--- It is a tenor banjo and the serial number is 35367. It was purchased by my parents in 1939 and was played by me in a plectrum band on a radio show on Saturdays. ---

Polle

Slingerland - Posted - 01/24/2011:  19:53:15

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrittDLD1

There ARE mistakes in his short pieces. But it's still one of the best overall
'digests' (abstract, synopses) of British and American makers. A good place
for 'newbies' to get basic info.

Best-
Ed Britt

---

Agreed. His section on the Dayton String Instrument Co. is filled with errors that everyone has taken as gospel (including myself for a number of years). A forthcoming piece on the company is in the works, in hopes of remedying those errors and exploring the company more deeply.

That being said, I am not trying to discount his contributions generally.

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 01/25/2011:  07:34:08

---

Hi Slinger land --

Yes, there are a few "blunders" in there, as well. But he was trying
to be encyclopedic... It was a huge project -- that took many years,
and tons of correspondence (some during WWII).

And... Some of his sources (while being professionals in-the-business)
also passed along some incorrect assumptions, mis-remembrances,
second-hand stories, and 'folklore' -- which has since been shown to
be incorrect.

So, the information is always best taken with a sprinkling of salt...

BHO Member, Lew Stern (BrooklynBanjoBoy) gave a talk at one of
the Collector's gathering on AP Sharp. (Don't have my notes here.)
He might have more to add...

Best-
Ed Britt

beezaboy - Posted - 01/25/2011:  07:46:30

---

Polle and Ed:
There is a newly listed B&D at Bernunzio
that may bear watching so I'm giving this alert:
Bacon and Day Silver Bell Special - $1995.00 ca. 1930s. This is a very unusual Silver Bell banjo most likely made after the factory closed. The peghead, fingerboard, rim and resonator are pearloid of the type used on Sultana banjos from the period. The peghead is engraved B & D Silver Bell Special for R. D. S. The banjo is minimally decorated but quite stunning in the fact that ...
bernunzio.com/newthisweek.php

Slingerland - Posted - 01/25/2011:  17:07:06

---

I am grateful for A.P. Sharpe's contributions and the instrument community is much better off because of them.

Bjorn Koch - Posted - 01/25/2011:  18:15:28

---

To Ed Britt,
Yes, the numbers on my banjo match rim & dowl stick. The back has the raised turned back. The holes around the rim all 47 are 5/16 in size. I will send some pictures soon. Have to run to the airport and pick up my wife.
Thanks
Bjorn

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/25/2011:  22:48:14

---

Bjorn,

For the database and the research of the B&D SB transition period late 1923 - mid 1925 - I´ll very much like to know

- does the tone ring have inside holes only - or both in-/outside holes?
- tailpiece - Oettinger (4-finger) or Presto?
- tuners - brand/type?

Thanks in advance.



Polle

---

Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 01/25/2011 22:48:39

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/26/2011:  22:31:37

---

John,

Regarding the strange B&D at Bernunzio - pics are present now - a serial number however not.

A strange bird indeed - I like her plain looks - Gretsch flip-over tailpiece - everything else indicates a Bacon 30s build to me.

Polle

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/27/2011:  02:27:27

---

John, Ed & Others,

Regarding the first 19-fret Silver Bell´s - here´s a preliminary chart over the development of the classic B&D Silver Bell - based on datas from my extended database and my ongoing research:

acoustudio.dk/BD%20Silver%20Be...ment.html

A few surprises for some of you are to be found, I guess.



Polle

beezaboy - Posted - 01/27/2011:  05:10:11

---

Polle:
Very nice work.
Thank you for sharing this data.

Here is my focus.
1. The longer the banjo neck the better the banjo tone.
2. The 5-string sets the standard for banjo tone.
3. The tenor banjo is a compromise instrument with a neck
long enough to sound "banjoey" but short enough to permit
CGDA tuning w/o breaking strings.
4. Tenor banjo 17 fret neck was standard 1908-1921.
5. Fall 1921 - Wm. Lange developed "modern" tenor banjo with
19 fret neck for better tone and extended resonator for better
volume and carrying power. [Full page ad depicting Paramount in Music Trade Review Dec. 1921 - arcade-museum.com/mtr/MTR-1921...4-137.pdf
6. Aug. 1923 - Vega introduced Vegaphone (19 fret w/ resonator). [see photos below]
7. June 1923 - Schneidlmeir introduced 17 fret resonator Silver Bell to trade (Ed Britt has text from catalog confirming this date).
8. Aug. 1923 - 17 fret Silver Bell introduced. [see first Cadenza ad Feb 1924 below]
9. May 2, 1925 - First photo of 19 fret Silver Bell published in ad in Music Trade Review. arcade-museum.com/mtr/MTR-1925...18-42.pdf
10. Estimating 6 mos. lead to get artist photo shoot, write text,
submit ad, etc. first 19 fret resonated Silver Bell for sale to public
was Fall 1924.
This estimation and foundation from Cadenza and Music Trade Review.

---

Edited by - beezaboy on 01/27/2011 05:36:28

Cadenza Aug. 1923 "Vegaphone Banjos"

Vegaphone Depicted - Sept 1923

Cadenza Feb. 1924

geezr - Posted - 01/27/2011:  08:15:40

---

Polle

I am wondering if the B&D at Bernunzio's might have an ebony neck. Every thing else is pearloid with black trim. What crosses my mind is that it is a custom banjo and I'm thinking the original owner wanted a #1 with an ebony neck. The minimal decoration would offset the extra cost of the ebony neck.

Jay