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jbalch - Posted - 08/01/2010: 06:22:39
The thread about the Briggs Special on ebaY got me thinking. I've seen B&D banjos marked a few different ways:
Gordon,
Tatham,
Pifer,
Briggs Special,
Kingston (I think?)
Are you aware of other B&D (Bacon Co.) pseudonyms?
Edited by - jbalch on 09/10/2010 09:50:39
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 08/01/2010: 07:25:15
John,
There are a few mid 20s Bacon Style B Chicago Princess Special´s.
Also a few B&D Silver Bell Fred Bacon Special´s and B&D Fred Bacon Special´s - both models from ´28.
Plus some examples of the Senorita version Lyric - from early 30s.
Kingston is a Gretsch "thing" - so is Le Mar and others.
Polle
NYCJazz - Posted - 08/02/2010: 12:37:59
There was a "Chicago Princess" on eBay last week.
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 08/02/2010: 17:57:32
There were some models made for CMI - Chicago Musical Instruments,
which only gave the Model name WITHOUT anything else. (NO "B&D"
or "Bacon" on the peghead). CMI carried both Bacon Models and
Bacon-made CMI models.
The CMI models are usually marked with the "Made by.." stamp
and have official Bacon Serial numbers on dowel and rim.
CMI models (with NO "B&D" or "Bacon" on Peghead):
"Emperor"
"Rhythm King"
Other tradenames (with NO "B&D" or "Bacon" on Peghead):
"Art-i-so"
Here's one to drive ya nuts:
a "Bacon Recording King" (basically a Serenader)
banjoworld.de/High423.htm
Best-
Ed Britt
beezaboy - Posted - 08/02/2010: 18:03:51
Good thread John...We need to jot these down!
rudykizuty - Posted - 08/02/2010: 19:12:50
That Bacon Recording King looks kind of Gretsch like. This particular variety of fan inlay in the first fret I've seen on Gretsch models before, but never on a Groton model. It looks like a Gretsch Serenader pot too. The Groton versions had pearloid laminated rims.
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 08/02/2010: 21:32:53
quote:
Originally posted by rudykizuty
That Bacon Recording King looks kind of Gretsch like. This particular variety of fan inlay in the first fret I've seen on Gretsch models before, but never on a Groton model. It looks like a Gretsch Serenader pot too. The Groton versions had pearloid laminated rims.
You could be right, Anthony.
Amendt doesn't provide serials on his pages, and rarely shows photos of
the insides. It could be early-Gretsch, from Groton parts, made POST-1940.
The peghead shape is simplified from the Serenader -- but not as distorted
as the 1960s versions of it.
Best-
Ed Britt
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 08/03/2010: 01:33:34
There´s a Bacon Recording King in Tsumura´s 1001 BANJOS.
SN 1274 - making it Gretsch built.
Polle
rudykizuty - Posted - 08/03/2010: 02:50:20
Ed,
Agreed. Seems the more time passed, the more distorted the original peghead design became during the Gretsch years.
jbalch - Posted - 08/03/2010: 04:46:05
I assume the "Bacon Recording King" was made for Montgomery Ward (Like the Gibson RK instruments). Does anyone know if that is true?
One thing about he Wards RK instruments is that they usually had very nice specs. It appears that someone at Montgomery Wards knew what they were doing and incorporated nice details into the instruments they sold. I have a 1930s Gibson-made RK archtop guitar that is superior to many of the similar Gibsons from the period. It has a maple back & sides (I think most of the Gibson L-30 models were mahogany). The body is also deeper than the L-30. These differences give the RK guitar a much better sound than the L-30's I have owned and played.
It would be great to see more details about the Bacon Recording King to know what type of construction details were specified on it.
Anoher nameplate I wondered about was "Howard". According to mugwumps.com. That brand was used by Wurlitzer into the 1920s. Did it ever appear on a Groton (Bacon) made banjo?
Edited by - jbalch on 08/03/2010 06:05:06
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 08/03/2010: 14:25:52
My good friend, Dick Sheridan, had a "Howard" -- made
by Bacon -- some 30 years ago. (It was also a Senorita-style)
Just the name "Howard" -- no B&D on the peghead.
That was the 1st time I saw a private label banjo by Bacon.
But it was very obvious who made it. Silver inside, etc.
Don't remember if it had the "Made by" stamp or not.
I'm sure Dick sold it to a student shortly after I saw it.
The Wurlitzer brothers were investors in The Bacon Co., in
the early-'30s. Farny and Rudy were both on Bacon's board.
It's MY opinion that they forced Fred to retire, in 1932, and
made Dave Day President. (Day's secretary didn't have any
kind words to say about the Wurlitzers...) But, that investment
probably kept The Bacon Co. alive, during the depths of The
Depression.
Farny lived in my "hometown" of North Tonawanda, NY. Although
I didn't know anything about that, at the time. (I found-out a few
years ago, that my high school best friend, Clark, used to deliver
prescriptions to Farny's mansion...)
There was a big Wurlitzer plant in NT, that made theater organs and
jukeboxes.
Interestingly... A.C. Fairbanks left Fairbanks and Co, in 1895,
to go make wooden Bicycle rims in... North Tonawanda, NY.
Wurlitzer was already there, at that point...
Hmmm... Do ya think there might be a connection there...?
I'd certainly like to find out!
Best
Ed Britt
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 08/03/2010 14:45:38
stanger - Posted - 08/03/2010: 16:03:32
Hi, John...
Many of the Ne Plus Ultra Silver Bells were highly customized as to engraving, coloring, rhinestones, etc. One of the most popular custom touches was the original owner's name engraved on the peghead as a 'model'. Typically the letetering on the pegheads of these banjos will read vertically: B&D on top, followed by the name, then Ne Plus Ultra or Special (and sometimes both). The name order is often switched around, too- so sometimes the Ne Plus Ultra is above the name.
I think it all depended on the name and how much room it took up on the peghead. The engraver slanted, arched, intertwined, curved, distorted and may have mis-spelled the names to get them to fit. I'm sure that some of the names were nicknames or tags because of the physical limitations. Some names have intials only, or a single initial instead of a first name, as in J.Balch.
Another consideration was if the customer wanted lots of rhinestones, especially set into their names. They further complicated the job of the engraver.
And some may have been the vintage equivalents of J-Lo or Bradjelina today... English and names have always been mangled.
May of these banjos are very striking- some are way beautiful, others way busy looking, and some are as ugly to my eye as Rosemary's Baby. Excess and esthetics are sometimes uncomfortable companions.
regards,
stanger
jbalch - Posted - 08/03/2010: 17:23:33
Summary;
The following non-B&D brand names appear on Bacon-made banjos (or Grestch-made Bacon style banjos)
Gordon,
Tatham,
Pifer,
Briggs Special,
Lyric,
Emperor,
Rhythm King,
Art-i-so,
Recording King,
Howard,
Also, the following model names appear on Bacon banjos (otherwise marked Bacon):
Fred Bacon Special,
Chicago Princess Special,
Various custom marked examples (original owners name or initials, etc.)
Any others?
Edited by - jbalch on 08/03/2010 17:26:13
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 08/04/2010: 10:29:09
John --
ALL of the examples of the Tathams and Pifers that I've seen (so far)
have "B&D" on the peghead.
I'm pretty sure both "brands" were made expressly for Bands or Clubs
by those names (probably the teacher's, or Director's name) -- and not for commercial retailers.
Best-
Ed Britt
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 08/04/2010 10:31:31
jbalch - Posted - 08/04/2010: 11:08:17
Thanks Ed:
corrected summary:
The following non-B&D brand names appear on Bacon-made banjos or Grestch-made Bacon style banjos. (many are stamped: "made by The Bacon Co..." on the dowel...but not otherwise marked as B&D banjos):
Gordon,
Briggs Special,
Lyric,
Emperor,
Rhythm King,
Art-i-so,
Recording King,
Howard,
Also, the following model or "brand" names appear on Bacon banjos (These are usually otherwise marked Bacon or B&D):
Tatham,
Pifer,
Fred Bacon Special,
Chicago Princess Special,
Various custom marked examples (original owners name or initials, etc.)
Edited by - jbalch on 08/04/2010 11:13:39
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 08/04/2010: 23:25:31
John,
In the first group you´ll have to add:
Kingston
Le Mar
In the second group maybe also:
B&D Special #3 Rhythm Master
B&D Senorita Troubadour
B&D Rajah
B&D Medalist Silver Bell
Polle
beezaboy - Posted - 09/08/2010: 13:23:25
Here is another one from Geo. Gruhn's inventory
list dated Nov. 18, 1985.
Pitt Brand
The Gruhn inventory list reads:
"551937*Bacon and Day tenor Pitt brand Senorita model,
late 1920's, very good condition, identical to Senorita model
but engraved "Pitt Brand on headstock, hard case, $200."
jbalch - Posted - 09/08/2010: 18:46:41
John:
How in the world did you ever find that one...from 1985?
beezaboy - Posted - 09/09/2010: 02:43:13
John - I used to subscribe to Gruhn, Elderly and Bernunzio
lists. I got another stack of lists on ebay. The "Pitt Brand"
was in there. You learn stuff from those old lists. Plus, I
like to see what I missed.
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 09/09/2010: 07:55:37
quote:
Originally posted by beezaboy
John - I used to subscribe to Gruhn, Elderly and Bernunzio
lists. I got another stack of lists on ebay. ... You learn stuff
from those old lists. Plus, I like to see what I missed.
I've got 'em going back to the mid-'70s. Saved every one of them.
From the mid-'70s to 1982 I have them pretty-well organized. After
that... kids, house, and job took up my "archiving" time. Caches of
them are tucked away in various spots in my office/junkroom at
home....
When I can FIND the right ones, it allows me to post such drivel
as:
... in June 1978, a well-known New England dealer had listed:
......o "Mint Condition" 1903 Pre-fire Fairbanks Whyte Laydie No7 - $1750
......o 1903 Whyte Laydie No2 - $800.Even in The Great Depression 2.0, ya can't get 'em for those prices anymore.
Best-
Ed Britt
rudykizuty - Posted - 09/09/2010: 08:02:16
quote:
Originally posted by beezaboy
Here is another one from Geo. Gruhn's inventory
list dated Nov. 18, 1985.
Pitt Brand
The Gruhn inventory list reads:
"551937*Bacon and Day tenor Pitt brand Senorita model,
late 1920's, very good condition, identical to Senorita model
but engraved "Pitt Brand on headstock, hard case, $200."
How is it late 1920's with that serial number? Is it just a case of "don't believe everything you read"?
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 09/09/2010: 08:20:08
Anthony,
Have you ever heard of "stock numbers"?
BTW - Gruhn did/does never tell the serial numbers for their instruments - indeed very irritating for "data collectors"!
Polle
beezaboy - Posted - 09/09/2010: 10:29:03
quote:
How is it late 1920's with that serial number?
Anthony:
That number (551937)was Gruhn's inventory number.
I just tried to copy the all of the text from the list. Bit
of nostalgia for hoarders of pre-internet dealer lists.
AND:
quote:
ya can't get 'em for those prices anymore.
Oh man...if only we had purchased those banjos back then
instead of buying that new car. Car ended up wearing out.
beezaboy - Posted - 09/09/2010: 11:06:19
BTW and just for fun here is front of Gruhn Inventory
Mail-Out for subscribers dated Nov. 23, 1977 and I've
focused on his tenor and plectrum instruments for that week.
Oh how I loved to receive these!
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 09/09/2010: 11:16:05
The Paramount Leader 5-string is the one I'd love to have bought... 
Best-
Ed Britt
rudykizuty - Posted - 09/09/2010: 11:32:21
quote:
Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe
Anthony,
Have you ever heard of "stock numbers"?
BTW - Gruhn did/does never tell the serial numbers for their instruments - indeed very irritating for "data collectors"!
Polle
Ummm.....yes, I have. And it is indeed very irritating for this particular data enthusiast that his brain hasn't been functioning properly since aging another year earlier this week.
My wife insists on quoting that age is only a state of mind. My reply: That crap goes out the window when the mind goes
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 09/09/2010: 11:42:04
Anthony,
Maybe you´ll have to cut down the amount of kielbasa´s?
Polle
PS!
Gee - the prices were high back then! (For banjos - not kielbasa´s!)
rudykizuty - Posted - 09/09/2010: 12:14:34
quote:
Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe
Anthony,
Maybe you´ll have to cut down the amount of kielbasa´s?
Polle
PS!
Gee - the prices were high back then! (For banjos - not kielbasa´s!)
You just might be right. I'm sure my doctor would agree with you, Polle!!
beezaboy - Posted - 09/09/2010: 13:08:47
quote:
The Paramount Leader 5-string is the one I'd love to have bought
Ed - I'll bet Nathan would like to nab that Gibson plectrum guitar.
jbalch - Posted - 09/09/2010: 17:41:13
I used to go in Gruhn's (or GTR as it was once known) and pick up the list myself. I also subscribed by mail for a while. But I did not keep copies.
Polle: You mentioned
Kingston and
LeMar as B&D names....
I wasn't sure about Kingston. Is that a confirmed nameplate too?
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 09/09/2010: 20:11:44
quote:
Originally posted by jbalch
Kingston and
LeMar as B&D names....
I wasn't sure about Kingston. Is that a confirmed nameplate too?
Yup! #34458 Kingston By Bacon :
Best --
Ed Britt
jbalch - Posted - 09/10/2010: 05:36:53
Thanks Ed:
I thought I'd seen a Kingston Bacon somewhere...but could not find an example.
JB
beezaboy - Posted - 09/10/2010: 05:53:39
Pitt Brand must have been a jobber and ordered
some house brand banjos from Bacon.
I couldn't find a banjo but here is a "Pitt Brand" trumpet.
artfact.com/auction-lot/pitt-b...246b1def7
And a clarinet too:
en.allexperts.com/q/Antique-Mu...metal.htm
The clarinet expert called "Pitt Brand" a "stemcil" brand.
Here is his explanation:
Pitt brand clarinet was a 'stencil' brand. 'Stencil' is referred to when one company makes something and another stamps it with their logo, etc.
Now we have a name for Bacon pseudonyms. "Pseudonyms" being harder to spell than "stencil".
Edited by - beezaboy on 09/10/2010 06:02:01
rudykizuty - Posted - 09/10/2010: 06:51:59
quote:
Originally posted by beezaboy
The clarinet expert called "Pitt Brand" a "stencil" brand.
Here is his explanation:
Pitt brand clarinet was a 'stencil' brand. 'Stencil' is referred to when one company makes something and another stamps it with their logo, etc.
Now we have a name for Bacon pseudonyms. "Pseudonyms" being harder to spell than "stencil".
Which only proves what I have been saying all along. Banjo players are much more advanced than other varieties of musician
Let the others have their easy words.
Edited by - rudykizuty on 09/10/2010 06:54:25
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 09/10/2010: 07:30:12
The USUAL term is "private-labeled brand". ALL products -- from automobiles to
cans of beans, and toilet paper -- have "private-labeled" versions. (And "private-
labeled" goods have been made for hundreds of years...)
Sometimes they are also called "private brands", "store brands" or "house brands"
I've designed products for 40 years, and have messed around with musical instru-
ments longer than that. I've NEVER heard of the term "stencil brand" applied to a
"private-labeled brand".
(Perhaps it's used for inexpensive brass instruments, because some of the "house
brand" logos would be acid-etched into the metal. And a "stencil" or "screen" would
be used to create a negative wax-resist of the logo, on the metal, to do that. But
that's a bit far-fetched...)
The term "OEM" (Original Equipment Manufacturer) is used in the automotive, high
tech, and equipment industries -- mostly for companies that produce parts, com-
ponents, or assemblies, which are used in OTHER manufacturer's products.
(Confusingly... it can be also used in the other direction -- by calling a supplier's
customer "The OEM")
See:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Store_brand
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_label
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original...ufacturer
Editorial comment:
These days, nobody wants to lose money by actually having to PRODUCE a real,
honest-to-god, physical, tangible, "PRODUCT". (The Business-School mantra is:
"Don't make it, if you can buy it" -- coupled with the maxim: "Buy low, sell high")
So... MOST major brands have basically become a "holding company" or "trading
company" -- which consists mostly of financial, sales, purchasing, marketing and
legal people -- who do "branding" of products.
The actual products are produced by other manufacturers, in other places (often
third-world countries) -- where labor and materials are cheap, and regulations
controlling product safety, consumer rights, and worker rights, are mostly non-
existant. And "product quality" is usually an unknown term.
Those companies stand behind their "brands" -- NOT their "products". And by
doing so, they eventually create ridiculous "brand extensions" -- which gives us
the likes of:
. . . . . "New! Blue! GISBON Mouthwash --
. . . . . For Musicians!"®
Or other such inane absurdities...
Best-
Ed Britt
PS --
Don't forget about "generic brands" -- in which a manufacturer would simply
"stencil" the generic word:
-- BANJO --
onto the peghead, to make sure you knew what it was.
This could be the actual derivation of the term "stencil brand"... mostly used
by people who buy vast quantities of generic brands at warehouse stores...
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 09/10/2010 08:18:04
beezaboy - Posted - 09/10/2010: 08:06:57
quote:
I've NEVER heard of the term "stencil brand" applied to a
"private-labeled brand".
Shucks, I guess we're back to "(P)suu-doe-nim" (sic).
trapdoor2 - Posted - 09/10/2010: 08:39:24
Google "stencil brand" and you get a lot of hits for piano and band instruments. I'd never heard of the term either...but it seems in fairly common usage (at least, on the 'net).
Hmmm. Many low-end banjos with stencilled artwork (pegheads, fretboards, etc.) out there (mine was sold by Sears) perhaps we should co-opt the terminology! 
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 09/10/2010: 18:18:35
quote:
Originally posted by beezaboy
Is this one of our Bacon Lyric banjos??
cgi.ebay.com/Tenor-Banjo-Lyric...f0305ba0b
Hi Beeze-
YES, it is. It's NOT Gretsch-made, it's Groton made -- with
a serial that appears to be #30547. That's the earliest Bacon-
made "Lyric" with the "double-cut" peghead I've seen.
It seems to missing it's flange.
I have two other documented: #33935, and one other with
no serial seen. They are both painted silver on the inside.
Best-
Ed Britt
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 09/10/2010 18:42:32
jbalch - Posted - 09/10/2010: 19:24:27
The Lyric peghead Looks a lot like the Gordon I once had. I think the shape is nearly identical and the shading is similar. But the Gordon name was engraved (not jus a stencil). I added the chrome-plated Oettinger. It came with a Presto.
Edited by - jbalch on 09/10/2010 19:27:37
rudykizuty - Posted - 09/10/2010: 21:10:15
John, I always love the pictures you post of your banjos. You're obviously as good with a camera as you are with a banjo. Very good lighting and great detail.
With respect to the Gordon, do you recall any details about the tone ring it had? Just curious about the types of non-Silver Bell tone rings that Bacon used.
Edited by - rudykizuty on 09/10/2010 21:13:45
NYCJazz - Posted - 09/10/2010: 21:39:49
quote:
Originally posted by beezaboy
quote:
The Paramount Leader 5-string is the one I'd love to have bought
Ed - I'll bet Nathan would like to nab that Gibson plectrum guitar.
A plectrum SG! Wow. Kinda boggles my mind.
BTW
I saw an original 5-string Paramount Style A in a repair shop the other day... It was apart, but that neck was the real deal.
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 09/11/2010: 00:17:01
Ed & Others,
quote:
with the "double-cut" peghead
I have always wondered - what does this expression mean?
Polle
jbalch - Posted - 09/11/2010: 06:01:57
Thanks Anthony...here is the tone ring from that Gordon. it is just like my 1934 Special #2.
Gordon:
Here is the 1934 Special #2...I call this one "Ruth." BTW this one is sn" 33308...not too far away from the Gordon.
Edited by - jbalch on 09/11/2010 06:11:32
rudykizuty - Posted - 09/11/2010: 06:06:40
Aaah, I see. Thank you, John!!
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 09/11/2010: 07:26:02
John,
The spun ring on your Gordon looks all original - the ring on your Special #2 however seems added later (inclusive of a rim cut/profiling).
IMHO - regards
Polle
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 09/11/2010: 08:27:04
John,
Thanks for the correction - the first picture cheated me somehow. I couldn´t detect the stained recess at the outside of the rim - plus the non-painted beveling at the top of the inside looked a little strange.
I haven´t seen any Bacon catalogs from the mid 30s - so I wasn´t aware, that they changed the specs for Special´s in the early 30s.
Oh - it´s a good day for me - as I´ve learned something new about our beloved Ladies.
Polle
PS!
I wonder - what shall we call this "tone ring"?
rudykizuty - Posted - 09/11/2010: 08:46:25
Beautiful banjo that Special II is
Edited by - rudykizuty on 09/11/2010 08:47:04
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