SlimChance - Posted - 04/10/2010:  18:38:57

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Hi all,
First, I'd like to say this community is great and I'm happy to have found it! Now, I'm curious if anyone here is capable of playing anything similar to Walt Koken's Banjonique, Bluebird Rag, or Banjo Blues in a similar catchy vibe that Koken expresses. I have seen that there are a few tribute videos to Koken, but none of them, in my opinion, capture the true essence of Walt's playing. I have also seen FretlessFury's "Kokenology 101" and he does a very good job at dissecting and analyizing Walt's approach. His playing was the closest to Koken's that I have found.
I bought Walt's album "Banjonique" today, and was trying to tab it out in my head, but it is so complex that when I take a 3 second clip of it and try figure it out, I get so lost! There seems to be such a great respect and restraint from creating and sharing videos of Walt without his permission. I think it's great that people are like this, but it makes it so difficult for folks like me trying to learn his style!

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Edited by - SlimChance on 04/10/2010 18:50:40

Bill Rogers - Posted - 04/10/2010:  18:56:43

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I've known Walt since he was 19, and I've been trying to figure out his playing ever since. No success. Pete Peterson, who plays with Walt in The Orpheus Supertones, says there's some guy in Pennsylvania who comes close, but that he, like I, knows of no one else who can play like Walt. Even if you dissect his playing, you can't duplicate his sixth sense for syncopation. In other words, you could get a tab of exactly what he's playing, but you won't sound that way when you play it. The other thing is that he plays differently when playing with a fiddler or string band. Get his CD with Clare Milliner, "Just Tunes," and hear him in perfect synch with the fiddle.

jojo25 - Posted - 04/10/2010:  19:07:02

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like you 2 gents, I too am a big fan of Walt's work...his unique style is a joy...isn't it wonderful that such distinctive styles emerge?

I encourage you to emulate Walt to your hearts content...mimicing a master is a great way to learn...even if you never get to "getting" Walt's vibe (probably no one ever will duplicate it exactly)...the fun is often in the pursuit...I bet your own style will eventually emerge and some of Walt will live on in you...that's part of passing on the traditions

FYI, if you haven't listen to Walt's earlier work with the Highwoods String Band...you should check it out...Walt is on fiddle, but the spirit of his muse is definitely there

bangee boy - Posted - 04/11/2010:  01:51:42

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I love his style too....there's so much room to grow in this banjo world.

trick420 - Posted - 04/12/2010:  08:38:06

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quote:

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Originally posted by SlimChance

Hi all,
First, I'd like to say this community is great and I'm happy to have found it! Now, I'm curious if anyone here is capable of playing anything similar to Walt Koken's Banjonique, Bluebird Rag, or Banjo Blues in a similar catchy vibe that Koken expresses. I have seen that there are a few tribute videos to Koken, but none of them, in my opinion, capture the true essence of Walt's playing. I have also seen FretlessFury's "Kokenology 101" and he does a very good job at dissecting and analyizing Walt's approach. His playing was the closest to Koken's that I have found.
I bought Walt's album "Banjonique" today, and was trying to tab it out in my head, but it is so complex that when I take a 3 second clip of it and try figure it out, I get so lost! There seems to be such a great respect and restraint from creating and sharing videos of Walt without his permission. I think it's great that people are like this, but it makes it so difficult for folks like me trying to learn his style!

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Well, I have been looking for transcriptions of Walt's tunes online for a while now, and so far the only one I have found is "Train on the Island". It's actually in the BHO tablature archive.

It's a pretty good transcription, and I can play it satisfactorily (It's fun!), but just as Bill Rogers said - It sounds NOTHING like when Walt plays it. It sounds cool and unique, but not like Walt.

It's in a really funky tuning too. That's frustrating because it's a lot of work to tune just for that song, but once you're there you can jam on it forever and not get sick of it.

Jeff

BobTheGambler - Posted - 04/12/2010:  08:51:39

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The a cool video on youtube called Kokenology where Tom Collins breaks down some of the basic elements of Walt's approach. Its not going to make you play like him by any stretch of the imagination, but it helped me with understanding a bit of his syncopation and feel. There's also a few good videos of Walt himself playing, and I learned his 'grey eagle' from the youtube video that's still out there.

srselby - Posted - 04/13/2010:  18:39:31

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quote:

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Originally posted by BobTheGambler

The a cool video on youtube called Kokenology where Tom Collins breaks down some of the basic elements of Walt's approach.

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One thing I couldn't fathom about that video: Tom Collins referred to how Koken's technique allowed more 'ring' (sustain?) in the playing. And indeed, when Collins played there was a lot of sustain; but in Koken's own playing, the sound is very dry.

Dock Jekel - Posted - 04/13/2010:  19:32:04

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I'll go ahead and give my impressions of Walt Koken's solo performance at Cliff top finals 2009- I took a pretty good look. He is extremely facile- +10,000 hours of practice kind of thing (god knows how much practice!). This seems to allow him to get inside his sound, which is going at a pretty good clip, and explore "swing". "Swing" seems to be part of his unique vibe. Also, I notice he makes big chords with his left hand, which are more typical of bluegrass players. But, hey, I might be way off base, since I don't know anything about his banjo technique beyond what I saw on this video. I respect anything Bill has to say, so I am taking a closer look at this hero of his.

Bill Rogers - Posted - 04/13/2010:  19:38:13

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Walt played plectrum banjo, using his 5-string with the 5th removed, in a dixieland band early on. That means what we call standard C tuning, and playing uncapoed in all keys--so you have to know chords and know the neck. That's why he does that--because he can, and because he's used to it. Another player who uses those all-over-the-neck chords is Jody Stecher. Walt's 20-year hiatus (roughly 1975-95) hasn't seemed to effect his playing.

Dock Jekel - Posted - 04/13/2010:  20:01:56

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Plectrum banjo! Thats huge information. I'm sure such a background could influence one's old time playing quite a bit. Maybe that is also the source of the swing rhythm that I think I hear. Very interesting.

whyteman - Posted - 04/14/2010:  11:30:29

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I love the slightly other-worldly sound of Walt's Orpheum banjo. It certainly contributes to unique sound. Speaking of plectrum, my gal, "Bassora" has an Orpheum tenor banjo that has that wonderful weird sound also. She plays it on her "Needlecase" video. Walt has mastered how to sound good singing with such a distinctive sounding banjo. I really like "Jay Bird Town".

Glad to hear Bill plug Jody. Glad he's getting some play on SugarintheGourd. I've seen Jody do some amazing chording up the neck on the mandolin and he does play "clawhammer guitar". Both have influenced his banjo, I think.

Don.

BobTheGambler - Posted - 04/14/2010:  15:04:05

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quote:

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Originally posted by srselby

quote:

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Originally posted by BobTheGambler

The a cool video on youtube called Kokenology where Tom Collins breaks down some of the basic elements of Walt's approach.

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One thing I couldn't fathom about that video: Tom Collins referred to how Koken's technique allowed more 'ring' (sustain?) in the playing. And indeed, when Collins played there was a lot of sustain; but in Koken's own playing, the sound is very dry.

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I agree that the sound of Tom's banjo certainly differs from the tone of Walt's Orpheum. I think I heard somewhere that Walt has an interesting setup with a fairly loose calfskin head and a tall bridge. He might also put some kind of baffle material inside, like a rag stuffed between the dowel stick and head. I think the fact that he plays over the head also contributes to that dry 'pop' that his banjo has, but this is all just conjecture really.

FretlessFury - Posted - 04/15/2010:  13:24:20

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quote:

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Originally posted by BobTheGambler

quote:

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Originally posted by srselby

quote:

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Originally posted by BobTheGambler

The a cool video on youtube called Kokenology where Tom Collins breaks down some of the basic elements of Walt's approach.

---

One thing I couldn't fathom about that video: Tom Collins referred to how Koken's technique allowed more 'ring' (sustain?) in the playing. And indeed, when Collins played there was a lot of sustain; but in Koken's own playing, the sound is very dry.

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I agree that the sound of Tom's banjo certainly differs from the tone of Walt's Orpheum. I think I heard somewhere that Walt has an interesting setup with a fairly loose calfskin head and a tall bridge. He might also put some kind of baffle material inside, like a rag stuffed between the dowel stick and head. I think the fact that he plays over the head also contributes to that dry 'pop' that his banjo has, but this is all just conjecture really.

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Hey folks,

In the video when I mention "constant ringing" I am more referring to Walt's tendency towards pull-offs than to his actual tone (sustain). His strings are literally ringing all the time. As I've heard him describe it (to paraphrase), "the banjo sounds best when all the strings are ringing." He does indeed "choke" the strings with a technique that I thought I'd hit in the next video. This might be the "pop" you're referring to.

Walt does prefer skin heads to plastic ones. The Orpheum he plays has an arched ring which contributes to his tone, though I'd bet Walt would sound like Walt on any banjo you handed him.

The banjo I'm playing in the video, an Ome Columbine with an 11" silverspun ring, is a really sustain-y banjo. It is indeed very different in tone to Walt's.

Best,

Tom

drybones - Posted - 05/12/2010:  16:22:03

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Another thing that's really something is the way his right hand floats -- it doesn't seem to be a strum people have discussed or dissected here. His hand floats and he has great speed and drive, too. It's sure fun to listen to --

db

bluemule_77 - Posted - 05/12/2010:  18:40:09

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When I saw the topic heading, I made a bet with myself that Bill would be the first responder. So I paid myself the dollar.

-- Brian

BANJOJUDY - Posted - 05/12/2010:  21:37:01

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Here's the deal.

Walt Koken will be appearing in New Mexico - last weekend in August - Santa Fe.

He and Pete Peterson and Kellie Allen and Claire Miliner will perform as the Orpheus Supertones, but there will be a chance to learn from Walt and the other 3. Lots of good stuff happening at that festival. You can buy cds too.

If you want to plan ahead, a trip to NM at that time of year (August 27-29) would be ideal.

Email me at inquiry@siliconheights.com for more information. You can also visit the Southwest Pickers site (google that) and see what is posted. It is not totally updated, though.

Pete Peterson - Posted - 05/17/2010:  14:22:03

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Thanks, Judy!

I myself am in awe of Walt's banjo playing, and I get to observe it, every now and then, at close hand. (pun conscious).

Others have the same potential opportunity-- Walt is teaching the Advanced Banjo class at Blue Ridge Old-Time Music Week June 6-12, less than month away. (BROTMW is hosted by Mars Hill College, in western North Carolina, about half an hour from Asheville) Last I heard, there are still a few spaces left before the Director closes the gates and announces that the class is Full, as has happened in other years.

RWJones1970 - Posted - 05/25/2010:  07:07:48

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*** I have owned Walt Koken's cd "Just Tunes" since 2004 but haven't listened to the entire album straight through until today while staining my deck. I had forgotten it's one of my favorite cd's concerning just fiddle and banjo. The whole album is a perfectly arranged masterpiece of old time tunes. They are both fantastic musicians and I don't think I have ever heard a banjo picker quite like Walt. He is unique and amazing to put it plainly. What a treasure of a friend you have Bill. I love every tune on the album but found myself repeating "Walk Chalk Chicken" for the neat little groove it possesses.

BANJOJUDY - Posted - 05/25/2010:  07:22:51

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quote:

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Originally posted by RWJones1970

*** I have owned Walt Koken's cd "Just Tunes" since 2004 but haven't listened to the entire album straight through until today while staining my deck. I had forgotten it's one of my favorite cd's concerning just fiddle and banjo. The whole album is a perfectly arranged masterpiece of old time tunes. They are both fantastic musicians and I don't think I have ever heard a banjo picker quite like Walt. He is unique and amazing to put it plainly. What a treasure of a friend you have Bill. I love every tune on the album but found myself repeating "Walk Chalk Chicken" for the neat little groove it possesses.

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I have that album too. Isn't Sycamores Along The Brandywine just an awesome tune? My favorite on that album. Walt wrote it.

Debbielee - Posted - 05/25/2010:  14:15:50

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I've signed up for Walt's class at Mars Hill. With all the comments I've read, I'm now really looking forward to it.

RWJones1970 - Posted - 05/25/2010:  16:46:36

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*** Yeah Judy, I love that tune. There isn't a tune I don't like on that album. So far today, I have listened to "Just Tunes" 7 times straight through. It seems to get better every listen.

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Edited by - RWJones1970 on 05/25/2010 16:53:52

BANJOJUDY - Posted - 05/25/2010:  17:50:11

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quote:

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Originally posted by RWJones1970

*** Yeah Judy, I love that tune. There isn't a tune I don't like on that album. So far today, I have listened to "Just Tunes" 7 times straight through. It seems to get better every listen.

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I am not sure why we bought that cd from Walt and Claire in the first place. I think they said we would like it - or maybe it was a new one - anyway, we got it from them maybe 2 years ago, and it is a great one, indeed.

You should come to New Mexico in AUgust for our SW Picker's Festival and you can meet Walt then. In fact everyone from the Hangout should come to NM in AUgust so I can meet them, as well as Walt, Claire, Pete and Kellie.

It is a seriously awesome festival. Lots of good bluegrass and old-time music and performances and jamming and great weather.

RWJones1970 - Posted - 05/27/2010:  04:54:22

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*** I can't come New Mexico this August as we will be preparing for an outage here and security will be experiencing a great deal of OT. Doesn't Walt live in Pennsylvania? I live just one state north of him and would be grateful if I could meet him just once.....possibly for a lesson too!

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Edited by - RWJones1970 on 05/27/2010 05:31:28

chip arnold - Posted - 05/27/2010:  06:40:14

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Pete and Kelly will also be at Mars Hill Old Time Week. Pete's an incredibly good OT 3-finger picker and Kellie is astounding on guitar.

Tish and I will be doing two 2-finger workshops as well as a mini concert with Mary Gordon.

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 05/27/2010:  07:15:01

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The secret to Walt's sound?

1. The banjo gods chose to endow Walt with the ONLY-known example of
an Orpheum #4. (None of the major dealers or collectors I know have ever
seen another... not even in photos. Walt hasn't either, last I asked...)

2. "Grit."
I realized one day, while Banjonique was playing in the next room, that the
sound reminded me of an old 78 RPM recording -- scratches and all.

I asked Walt about that, at one of the Maryland Banjo Academies. He said it's
an intentional addition of some extra noise -- he liked to "add grit" to his playing,
to give it an older sound. (Someone should ask him to demonstrate HOW he adds
"the grit", at a workshop, sometime...)

3. As Bill points-out, Walt's knowledge of the fingerboard, from his summer
spent playing in a jazz-band, allows him to go wherever he needs to. He's often
above the 7th fret, and often uses at least partial chord shapes -- with hammer-ons
and pull-offs -- way up the neck. He knows what he's doing, and he feels what he's
doing.


Best-
Ed Britt

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Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 05/27/2010 07:19:24

stringbeaner - Posted - 05/27/2010:  09:05:06

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Lots of good info up there. I am totally enamored with "Sequoia Farewell" and I'm gonna figger it out as close as I can if it hairlips us all.

RWJones1970 - Posted - 05/28/2010:  04:43:49

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*** Thanks for your insight Britt. The only known Orpheum #4? Walt is surely blessed. From the pictures on the "Just Tunes" and "Banjonique" album it looks like a sweet banjo with the inlaid fingerboard extending out over the banjo head. That fingerboard doesn't actually make contact with the head, does it? Also, what kind of tone ring do you suppose this Orpheum #4 has? He sure can make that instrument sing.

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Edited by - RWJones1970 on 05/30/2010 07:32:57

GSCarson - Posted - 05/30/2010:  08:07:40

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It was years before I was even aware of Walt's banjo playing. Absolutely fantastic! Walt's got the vibe on the banjo and the fiddle. I would also like to publicly acknowledge my thanks to him (and Mac Benford) for making old time music sound so good and fun back when I was first getting into it (fiddle, banjo, building, wanted to do it all!) in the early 70's. Not that I wasn't already completely hooked, but the first time I heard the Highwoods play live was a revelation in regard to how much plain old fun a string band could be. Energy, yep, they sure had it.. Thanks again Walt!
Glenn C.

chip arnold - Posted - 05/30/2010:  10:03:03

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RW, The ring is the standard orpheum brass ring suspended on small, steel pedastles.

RWJones1970 - Posted - 05/31/2010:  01:12:40

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*** Thank You Chip.