BanjerMaker - Posted - 02/23/2010:  05:19:42

Is there any difference?

R Buck - Posted - 02/23/2010:  06:01:08

Yes. Even beyond the titles. John Brown's Dream (at least the Surrey County version I know) is a four part tune. Little Rabbit, first recorded by Crockett's Kentucky Mountaineers (I think) was recorded in the late 20's/early 30's and is a 5 part tune with a IV chord in the 3rd part. Some folks claim it is a medley but I don't quite hear that. I learned it from Kenny Hall about 1971 or so. I like both tunes and they are fun to play.

Hunter Robertson - Posted - 02/23/2010:  08:05:13

Now, how about The Devil's Dream (Hobart Smith), Pretty Little Girl/Pretty Little Miss (Fred Cockerham: "Tommy he... I don't know where he got that John Brown's Dream, it's the same damn thing, but you can't tell Tommy that."), Herve Brown's Dream, Jimmy Johnson and who knows what else?

Hunter

Kevin Fore - Posted - 02/23/2010:  08:28:13

I've got a old recording of Fred Kyle Creed and Bobby Patterson playing around DC. Kyle said we're going to play you a tune called John Brown Dream some folks call it Pretty Little Gal but the real name is John Browns Dream, Pretty lil Gal is a different tune.

Ben Jarrell & Charlie Lowe took Pretty Lil Gal and made John Browns Dream out of it.

Edited by - Kevin Fore on 02/23/2010 08:41:41

Hunter Robertson - Posted - 02/23/2010:  09:44:09

Hey Kevin, good to see you around.

Just after that bit from Cockerham I quoted above, the interviewers say something about Charlie and Ben adding a bit or "jazzing it up" according to Tommy, and Fred says: "Aw hell, well, I don't know. I'm getting to be a pretty old man and by God, that's the only way I've ever heard it played.". After he plays the tune he goes on about having asked Tommy to show him the difference between Pretty Little Girl and John Brown's Dream, so they played Tommy's John Brown's Dream together and "it was same goddamned identical tune, you know, every damn note and everything". Pretty funny listening.

Hunter

Kevin Fore - Posted - 02/23/2010:  09:56:23

Yeah I love a listening to the stories behind the tunes from them old fellers. I get to hear a lot of them from Benton Flippen. I carried Benton to church other night and he was talking about how the older now gone people played the tunes. I can set for hours just a listening to him talk.

Kitt - Posted - 02/23/2010:  10:05:16

Bruce Molsky expounds upon this subject. Here is an excerpt from his blog:

quote:

---

Rather than go into miniscule further detail, I will present a veritable litany of titles and the artists who played them, and one could say they are all playing John Brown’s Dream.

Dykes’ Magic City Trio (John Dykes, fiddle), Red Steer; Crockett’s Kentucky Mountaineers (George Crockett, fiddle), Little Rabbit (conflated with Rabbit Where’s Your Mammy); The Roan Mountain Hill Toppers (Joe Birchfield, fiddle) Brown’s Dream; Ward Jarvis, Melvin Wine, and many other West Virginians, Jimmy Johnson; Benton Flippen, Pretty Little Girl; William H. Stepp, Old Hen She Cackled; Ed Haley, Brownlow’s Dream; and Luther Strong, Old Hen Cackled. To add a bit more confusion, Marion Thede printed another variant of it in her The Fiddle Book (page 53) as Give the Fiddler a Dram, attributed to “G. Blevins, Bryan County,” presumably in Oklahoma. I’ve come across other titular variations on this theme over the years, but don’t have them at my fingertips at this very moment, so maybe we can add to this list as I find suitable subjects. Or perhaps we should lay this to rest, “The devil is dead!”

---

Kevin Fore - Posted - 02/23/2010:  10:09:41

No matter what Bruce says, There is a difference in John Browns Dream and Pretty Lil Gal. I know, I play them both. They are similar but different...

Hunter Robertson - Posted - 02/23/2010:  10:32:30

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kevin Fore

Yeah I love a listening to the stories behind the tunes from them old fellers. I get to hear a lot of them from Benton Flippen. I carried Benton to church other night and he was talking about how the older now gone people played the tunes. I can set for hours just a listening to him talk.

---

Kitt - Posted - 02/23/2010:  10:34:06

Just so you know, Kevin, I'm sure as heck not refuting or even questioning your experience or your take on that. I was simply posting Bruce's comments without editorial from myself for the sake of interest.

Kevin Fore - Posted - 02/23/2010:  10:41:04

All I was saying that there is a difference so people will understand. I'll locate the 2 tunes and post them so the folks can hear the difference.

Hunter Robertson - Posted - 02/23/2010:  11:04:59

I learned it off a Hobart Smith record, so I think of them as both being variations on The Devil's Dream.

Some snippets:
Hobart Smith's The Devil's Dream: http://www.amazon.com/The-Devils-Dr...p/B0012JHD1W
Tommy Jarrell's John Brown's Dream: http://www.amazon.com/Clawhammer-Ba...dmusic_1_img
Fred Cockerham's Pretty Little Girl: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...f=dm_ap_alb7

Hunter

pernicketylad - Posted - 02/23/2010:  11:15:57

I think people were at a dance, heard a tune and hummed it to themselves all the way home (no H2 Zooms back then). By the time they got home they had a version of the tune that was 99% the same.
I've learned tunes like that and had to re-learn them....small inaccuracies crept in somewhere along the filtering process.

Hunter Robertson - Posted - 02/23/2010:  11:22:39

This reminds me of a recording of "Natchez Under the Hill", the fiddler starts it off saying something like "This sounds a lot like 'Turkey in the Straw', but still there's a difference!". And there are differences between all these. I think of them as families of tunes.

Of course, there's always this: http://bluegrassintelligencer.com/?p=1055

Hunter

whitetop_banjo - Posted - 02/23/2010:  11:26:04

I'll throw in my two cents to the original question and agree that they are definitely different tunes. One may have come from the other, but they are definitely different and several fiddlers play both of them. Some of my favorite versions of Pretty Little Girl are by The Sweet Brothers and Ernest Stoneman and also by Otis Burris, who played it at alot of fiddler's conventions.

Another tune that has several different versions from VA/NC is Sally Ann. There's the 3 part Sally Ann, which I've sometimes heard called North Carolina Sally Ann, and then there's a couple different 2 part versions, 1 of which Tommy Jarrell and others called Old Time Sally Ann.

Kevin Fore - Posted - 02/23/2010:  11:48:57

Here is Pretty lil Girl, I recorded yesterday with me and Benton Flippen
http://www.banjohangout.org/myhango...17&archived=

Hunter Robertson - Posted - 02/23/2010:  12:10:36

Really nice Kevin. I see now though we're even talking about fairly different versions of Pretty Little Girl! Compare that to the recording of Cockerham above.

"John Brown's Dream is just hard to play" - Fred makes a similar comment before launching into his Pretty Little Girl, "Hell of a lot of hard pickin' in that tune."

Here's how me and my buddy Casey play The Devil's Dream: http://www.banjohangout.org/myhango...72&archived=

Hunter

Kevin Fore - Posted - 02/23/2010:  12:24:04

Really Fred called John Browns Dream Pretty Lil Girl.

Here is John Brown's Dream off of my 1st CD with my Band from Galax Va. Southern Pride
http://www.banjohangout.org/myhango...20&archived=

Edited by - Kevin Fore on 02/23/2010 12:35:38

banjot - Posted - 02/23/2010:  12:38:25

To further muddy the waters, I have tape of Kyle Creed where he claims that Pretty Little Girl and John Brown's Dream are pretty much the same tune but Pretty Little Girl is in G and John Brown's Dream is in A....He then went onto play a completely different third part to Pretty Little Girl.

Tom Mylet

Hunter Robertson - Posted - 02/23/2010:  12:39:58

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kevin Fore

Really Fred called John Browns Dream Pretty Lil Girl.

---

Kevin Fore - Posted - 02/23/2010:  12:40:34

Oh Kyle :)

If you all don't have this you need to get it.
http://www.oldbluerecords.com/OBCD502Info.html

Edited by - Kevin Fore on 02/23/2010 12:47:49

Kevin Fore - Posted - 02/23/2010:  12:41:14

Nah I'll let ol Fred be

Chris Via - Posted - 02/23/2010:  12:45:39

Here is another twist. Henry Reed called it The Old Virginia Patty on the Turnpike.
John Hilt called it Harve Browns Dream

Edited by - Chris Via on 02/23/2010 12:46:31

whitetop_banjo - Posted - 02/23/2010:  12:45:46

Tom,

To add to what Kyle said, probably un-related, but the 78-era version by the Sweet Brothers and Ernest Stoneman IS in G, so that's interesting.

Kevin Fore - Posted - 02/23/2010:  12:52:41

Law, Law, why in the world did I get back on here..

banjered - Posted - 02/23/2010:  13:08:33

PKD - "I think people were at a dance, heard a tune and hummed it to themselves all the way home (no H2 Zooms back then). By the time they got home they had a version of the tune that was 99% the same.
I've learned tunes like that and had to re-learn them....small inaccuracies crept in somewhere along the filtering process."


Hence all these one thousand and one ways to play "a" tune. How many times have you run into another musician who thinks that HIS version is the only one and true DEFINITIVE way to play a tune. The "version" you learned is of course "incorrect" and probably lacking in taste and musical ability.

"Correct" for me is what works/fits whether it be a jam or some other playing situation. My "fitting" on the fly is seriously lacking, one more CH mountain to climb. And besides, they don't call'em "jams" for nuttin'! TC

Hunter Robertson - Posted - 02/23/2010:  13:29:54

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kevin Fore

Law, Law, why in the world did I get back on here..

---

Kevin Fore - Posted - 02/23/2010:  13:38:19

No arguing here Just a showing here the difference in the 2. :)

LEUllman - Posted - 02/23/2010:  15:36:00

Us old-time fanatics might consider a note here or a lick there sufficient to call two tunes "different," but I doubt our opinion would stand up in a court of law. All you need to prove copyright infringement is "indirect evidence showing 1) access to the original work; and 2) "substantial similarity" between the original and allegedly infringing work.

I rest my case.

How do you tell the difference between two old-time tunes? By the titles! <rimshot>

Tackhead - Posted - 02/24/2010:  06:31:15

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kevin Fore

Oh Kyle :)

If you all don't have this you need to get it.
http://www.oldbluerecords.com/OBCD502Info.html

---

BobTheGambler - Posted - 02/25/2010:  00:20:55

Hunter,

What were those Fred Cockerham quotes from?