reese158 - Posted - 02/14/2010:  14:11:26

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After more than a year of adjusting to playing a long neck, I'm seriously considering the "Seeger eye-bolt" in the neck for my strap. No matter what I do, gravity is constantly pulling that HEAVY neck toward the floor (sitting or standing). I find myself contorting my back, clutching the neck, or squeezing the pot with my forearm to try and keep the peghead pointing skyward--all of which are tedious, a hindrance, and physically unhealthy.

I've experimented with tying sting around the neck where the eye-bolt would be and clipping the strap to it. It seems to be the only way the banjo is balanced.

I'd like to know if anyone here who has been down this road can suggest an alternative before I "drill, baby, drill"--or if there are any cautions, tips, or suggestions regarding such a project (other than the obvious, "You want to do WHAT?!").

Thanks,
Brian.

uncle.fogey - Posted - 02/14/2010:  14:35:36

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I am truly a longneck guy, but I would hesitate to drill a hole in the neck unless It was REALLY necessary. Pete Seeger is a force of nature, for sure, but his neck is a very heavy one made of lignum vitae. Before resorting to this kind of thing, I'd watch every Kingston Trio and Tommy Makem thing that's on Youtube at least once.

Seansvoice - Posted - 02/14/2010:  16:38:07

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Another thing you can do is to get a Martin Strap Button...a little collar that wraps around the headstock.

I've gone to a thin leather strap and it works fine...balances well and everything. I snap it to the closest hook to the neck on the treble side...

goldtopia - Posted - 02/15/2010:  03:24:42

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I am considering getting along neck at some future date. I would not make holes in the neck. I wonder if the strap was connected to just one side of the pot, (the left side) the right side would then give a bit more balance to the neck. The strap would have to be modified to fit around the body or the shoulder as it would only be connected to one side of the banjo. Even if its not perfect, I think it would be better. Its worth a try.
The Martin strap looks a pretty good idea but the centre of balance would take a bit of getting used to.

Bill.O

www.bluegrassminstrels.co.uk

Helix - Posted - 02/15/2010:  03:30:56

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Use a cradle strap, under the banjo, yes the extra wood in the longneck makes it heavier, especially with Grovers out there. The cradle is easy to use and distributes the weight evenly.

Fear Beware

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Edited by - Helix on 02/15/2010 03:32:13

mainejohn - Posted - 02/15/2010:  04:33:35

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I attached straps to my two longnecks at the conventional locations, and find that if I use a leather strap with a rough inside, it won't slip, whereas one that is smooth on both sides will slip. Are you wearing the strap over your left shoulder, or your right, as Pete does? As he likes to wear it over his right shoulder, I think the eye-bolt setup is the only way to prevent slippage. Yes, his lignum vitae neck is heavy and would have even more of a tendency to cause slippage, but I've seen photos of him playing a factory Vega PS-5 and he uses the eye bolt arrangement on that one, too. I've never played a longneck with an eyebolt, but I suspect it would get in the way when playing up the neck.

Basic Strum - Posted - 02/15/2010:  05:48:34

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As long as you attach the strap to hooks that will keep the neck more or less vertical, you can use any strap and avoid the eyebolt. I attach mine to the fourth or fifth bracket from the neck on the treble side and the fourth or fifth away from the tailpiece on the bass side (under the armrest). Alex Hassilev of the Limeliters held his long-neck Vega as vertically as any player I've ever seen. Check out the YouTube of the Limeliters playing "Wabash Cannonball" on a live B&W TV show in the early 1960s. If you watch carefully, you can see the attachment points.

By the way, if you like the retro skinny leather strap with long shoulder pad look, you can get a Fender "Vintage" guitar strap on ebay new, fairly cheap. All the adaptation that's required is punching a second hole in each end, and fastening the strap to itself with Chicago screws after you slip the strap below the hooks. Bill

reese158 - Posted - 02/15/2010:  16:04:28

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Gentlemen,

Thank you for the good advice--and caution urged. I reckon I'll try a few more strap configurations before I resort to drastic measures. Much obliged!

uncle.fogey - Posted - 02/15/2010:  17:18:29

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I watched that Youtube Limeliters piece - You can see the strap very clearly. I forgot how straight up he played the banjo - I couldn't bend my wrist that much. I DO remember being in a KT style folk group in the early 60s - if you crowded around the mike, you had to be careful not to whack one of the other guys with the banjo neck.

reese158 - Posted - 02/15/2010:  18:09:53

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It looks like an Ode that Hassilev is playing too, not the ubiquitous Vega PS-5.

uncle.fogey - Posted - 02/15/2010:  18:25:18

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I'm pretty sure he is playing a Vega Pete Seeger XL - a rare bird - the "5th string" peg was down one fret farther, at the 9th fret Hassiliev had a custom one with no veneer on the peghead.

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 02/15/2010:  19:05:17

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Simple... Just hang a brick, on a string, from the tailpiece bolt!

Got a Link for that Hassilev video? ODE also made some custom banjos with
the peg at the 9th, or 10th (from the nut).

Best-
Ed Britt

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Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 02/15/2010 19:07:11

goldtopia - Posted - 02/15/2010:  23:16:42

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Yeah, and you could paint the brick the same colour as the banjo to make it look like its supposed to be there.

Bill.O

www.bluegrassminstrels.co.uk

reese158 - Posted - 02/16/2010:  05:15:50

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FakIaWVelE

Yes, I knew the Xcel--the blonde peghead had me thrown.

uncle.fogey - Posted - 02/16/2010:  06:46:31

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I could never figure out what the purpose of the XL was, other than it making an already long neck look even longer. It would be interesting to see their promo literature on it. I guess it would make it easier to capo the "5th fret", to play in C in G position. I think it might make the 5th string somewhat slack, and you'd really be in trouble if you played it all the way open.

I considered making a neck like this for my Vega longneck conversion, because they are such a rarity, but didn't because I was afraid the 5th peg in the "wrong place" would drive me crazy.

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 02/16/2010:  07:24:11

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quote:

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Originally posted by reese158
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FakIaWVelE

Yes, I knew the Xcel--the blonde peghead had me thrown.

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Thanks for the link, Brian.

I agree with you... The peghead does NOT have an overlay. And shows the
center-stripe more typical of an ODE. It does appear to be the large '60s
Vega shape, however. (But I can't see a star in the peghead...)

And it does have the 5th pip at the 9th fret, like the Xcel. So it probably IS
an Xcell (And I agree with you, Ken -- it's probably just to make it easier to
capo at the 8th (5th).

I'm not a hardcore "student" of the '50s-'60s Vegas, (ODEs are my interest)
but I don't think I've ever seen a Vega Seeger with a "bare" peghead, before.
(I have seen some of the lower-model paddle pegheads done that way.)

ODE did provide plenty of necks for conversions, back then. I've probably
run across 6 or 8 so far. (The banjo that Roger McGuinn has been playing
recently, is a Tubaphone rim with an ODE neck...)

By the way... The original name, best I can tell, was spelled "Xcel". While
checking that, I found out that "Vega XL" is a penis enhancement drug.
A Freudian reference, no doubt....

Best-
Ed Britt

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Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 02/16/2010 07:32:25

uncle.fogey - Posted - 02/16/2010:  08:06:19

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I remember seeing Limeliters album covers back in the day, and my recollection was that it was a Vega with the "Vega" and the star inlayed right into the maple.

I even made a neck like that (normal longneck, not Exel) circa 1963.

reese158 - Posted - 02/16/2010:  08:43:29

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The Xcel cost 140.00 more that the PS5 back in 1963, adjusted for inflation, that's almost 1000.00 more! I guess you got Rotomatics and a geared 5th--but it seems a bit steep for whatever the benefit of the higher 5th peg was.

More interesting is the different bridge and arm rest for PS5s advertised in the 1963 Vega catalog. Whatever bridge it was cost 1.00 more than the standard. The arm rest--which I thought was an Elton--is listed as: Arm Rest, Seeger, No. 54, with clamp. It cost 3.00 more than the Elton.

mainejohn - Posted - 02/16/2010:  09:48:37

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Here's another youtube clip filmed in 1981 (18 years later than the "Wabash Cannonball" clip,) showing Hassilev in what must be a Limeliters renuion, playing what appears to be the same Vega without the peghead overlay:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OFr...ture=related

There are not only some good closeups of the banjo, the clip is Lou Gottlieb stage patter at its best. Great memories....

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Edited by - mainejohn on 02/16/2010 09:56:25

reese158 - Posted - 02/16/2010:  10:08:34

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Maybe moving the 5th peg shifted just enough weight that one didn't need to screw an eye-bolt in the neck for his strap.

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 02/16/2010:  11:38:54

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I checked that early custom ODE longneck (SN:47), that I was referring to earlier...
Its 5th string PIP is located at the 12TH fret!

(That would be at the 9th fret on 22-fret neck.)

Best-
Ed Britt

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Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 02/16/2010 11:42:55

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 02/16/2010:  11:40:09

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quote:

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Originally posted by reese158
Maybe moving the 5th peg shifted just enough weight that one didn't
need to screw an eye-bolt in the neck for his strap.

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Only if it was a GEARED peg...

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Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 02/16/2010 11:42:06

uncle.fogey - Posted - 02/16/2010:  11:54:44

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Having the pip at the 12th fret is really wild! I have never seen one of those.

Thinking about the Exel, I was thinking that you could tune the 5th string up quite a bit. I don't know how or if they spiked the necks in that era.

As far as the 12th fret goes, I can only wonder about how the 5th string would work with that. You'd be assuming that you'd NEVER play it open, or may be tune the drone string an octave higher I wonder how you could even play it in G. Capoing, however would be a dream.

Are there any pictures of that? I'd love to see it.

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 02/17/2010:  02:51:50

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Hi Ken --

I'll see if I can get a photo of it in the next couple days.

I asked Chuck Ogsbury about it and he said I had to have been a custom-order. That was
not the typical way he built them. It also has NO position dots at all.

It's a very early one made in ODE's first year, and probably made by Chuck personally. He
was still learning how to do woodworking at that point, and it's rather crude by any standards...
(No trussrod -- just faith in God that it would stay straight... Which it didn't... )

I think your instincts are correct...

It seems pretty obvious that it was done to facilitate moving a capo more easily, without affecting
the 5th string. By simply increasing the gauge of the 5th string a thousandth, or so -- it could be
tweeked to sound prettygood at the low end and at the high end. (And with the crappy friction
tuners which were available then -- it was easier to tune DOWN, than to crank it up.

I do like your thought about tuning the 5th to a different note than usual. (Octave, harmony, etc.)

Best-
Ed Britt

stanger - Posted - 02/17/2010:  04:56:20

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quote:

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Originally posted by uncle.fogey

Having the pip at the 12th fret is really wild! I have never seen one of those.

Thinking about the Exel, I was thinking that you could tune the 5th string up quite a bit. I don't know how or if they spiked the necks in that era.

As far as the 12th fret goes, I can only wonder about how the 5th string would work with that. You'd be assuming that you'd NEVER play it open, or may be tune the drone string an octave higher I wonder how you could even play it in G. Capoing, however would be a dream.

Are there any pictures of that? I'd love to see it.

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Hi, Unc...
REmember that the longneck has 3 extra frets. The 12th fret on a regular neck is the 9th fret on a longneck.
Even so, with a capo on the 3rd to play in G, the 5th string would still be pretty slack in tension when tuned to the proper high G note.

I think the XL's 5th peg placement served two purposes at the same time. It made capoing on the 5th fret easier- back in those times, all the capos were either stirrup or elastic band capos- and moving the 5th peg up further would allow the 5th to be tuned up to high C without the need of a spike or 5th capo, neither of which existed back then. The 5th would be very tight, but the 5th on a regular neck can be tuned up to B.
regards,
stanger

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 02/17/2010:  05:41:34

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Hi Mike -

But THIS longneck has it at the 12th fret -- when it's open, without a capo.
It would be the equivalent of having the pip at the 9th fret on a standard 22-fret banjo.

in other words, the pip is a full 4 frets higher than what is typical -- for either a 25-fret
longneck OR a 22-fret standard neck.

I'll try to get a photo.

Best-
Ed Britt

uncle.fogey - Posted - 02/17/2010:  05:46:54

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Thanks, Stanger,
I agree with you about the Xcel - I think you're right about that, and I never installed spikes until about 1963 0r 1964. We would just retune the 5th string. I think you're right about the capo at the (normal) 5th string position, too. I had thought about that myself. Lots of people play in C in the G positions, but not so many in Db, so who would care about that? Db is a forgotten key.

The Ode that Ed is talking about with the pip at the 12th fret, which is like having it at the pip at the 9th fret on a regular banjo - that one still seems really strange to me. There must be some idea there that I'm not grasping. I think I'd have to try it. You could definitely "get along" without spikes, but I don't think you could downtune the 5th string even to G from the 9th fret without it being like a rubber band. There must have been special tunings. Plus, forget about thumbing the 5th string. I guess these were pre Bill Keith melodic.

Regards,
Ken

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 02/17/2010:  11:15:22

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Hi --

OK... Sorry, I miscounted. The pip is at the 11th fret. (NOT at the 12th).
Here's the photo:


Source:http://www.banjohangout.org/myhango...albumid=1358

It's a 1961 ODE Model 21 Longneck. SN:47
A custom-ordered banjo -- with 5th string pip at 11th fret, and no dots.

ODE started in late-1960. This banjo was probably made in the early part of 1961, during
the first year of production. It's part of the "1st Run of 100", and was probably handmade
by Chuck Ogsbury. (He made about 50 banjos by himself, before hiring help.)

Has its rare original coffin case, Only 25 of the coffin cases were ever made -- all of them
by Chuck. The banjo and case are totally original, and in near-new condition. It's a like a
time capsule...

The attachments below show:
. . . o The back of the banjo, and outside of case.
. . . o Frets 10 thru 20 and the small brass screws used as 5th pip and capo spikes.

Best-
Ed Britt

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Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 02/17/2010 13:02:10

2. 1961 ODE Model 21 Longneck SN:47

3. 1961 ODE SN:47 -- Frets 10 to 20

uncle.fogey - Posted - 02/17/2010:  12:26:32

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Ed,

Thanks for sharing that - it's amazing! Is that YOUR banjo?

What is your take on the design logic of it?

Ken

reese158 - Posted - 02/17/2010:  15:05:08

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Is that a 24 fret long neck?

Basic Strum - Posted - 02/17/2010:  15:54:06

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The rationale for the 5th peg placement on the Vega Xcel that's being sought in this thread assumes that the Xcel was an adaptation of the Seeger banjo. In fact, there's every reason to believe that Erik Darling was responsible for the design of what later become known as the Vegal Xcel, PRIOR TO Vega's release of the Pete Seeger Model. Here is the caption beneath the well-known "stop sign" photo of Darling written by Pete Curry for his "Folk Banjo" book: "Erik Darling's long-neck Vega Tubaphone banjo, which pre-dates the Pete Seeger Model, was custom-made for him by the Vega Company. Note the position of the 5th string peg, which is one fret up from standard. This 5th peg position was later utilized on the Vega Pete Seeger Xcel Custom model."

As to the question regarding the appeal of the Xcel model once it was released, I suggest it may have had less to do with the ease of playing in the key of C utilizing open G chords and more to do with playing in the key of F utilizing key of C chords. Playing "Coast of California" in the the Trio's original key of Fm, for example, would have been tough back in the Primitive Capo Era without retuning the banjo down a half-step.

I seem to recall that Sean O'neel posted comments approx a year ago from the banjo-playing Shaw Brother (my apologies, R or R, if you're reading this) describing how his Xcel model, originally a gift from Vega to John Stewart, came into his possession. Perhaps Mr. Shaw is privy to some insight regarding Vega's inspiration for issuing the instrument. Equally interesting (to me, at least) would be knowing why John rejected it in favor of the 8th-fret-mounted 5th peg Seeger model. My apologies, Sean, if I'm mis-remembering your post. I seem to do that a lot. Bill

uncle.fogey - Posted - 02/17/2010:  16:37:49

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Thanks, Bill.
That's very interesting. I had not thought of wanting to play in F in C positions. I had thought that part of the logic of the Seeger was that you could play in F in G position if you wanted to. The original one Pete Seeger had John D'Angelico make only was lengthened by 2 frets, and I saw a Paramount that D'Angelico lengthened, also by 2 frets -that would be the "real" original Seeger length neck - goes to F. ( although I would play in F in C positions at the 5th fret myself). It's been a while since I played "the Coast of California", and can't remember what key I played it in. There's a 98 percent chance I got the chords from a Kingston Trio chords and lyrics book, that came out with each new album and transposed it. I remember a C minor ( I think). I'll have to reconstruct that one again - it was one of Dave Guard's best. I would have played it with a regular Seeger type longneck.

What's so interesting about these later alternative longnecks is that they assume that you're never going to play them open, at least not in some normal tuning. I'll admit, I rarely play mine open, but they sound otherworldly if you do.

Funny that this string started off about straps.

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 02/17/2010:  20:40:09

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quote:

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Originally posted by uncle.fogey

Thanks for sharing that - it's amazing! Is that YOUR banjo?
What is your take on the design logic of it?

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Hi Ken-
Design logic? We don't need no stinking design logic!
I'm trying to find that out, from Ogsbury.

It belongs to a friend. (Not the original owner.)

quote:

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Originally posted by reese158

Is that a 24 fret long neck?

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Yes it is, Brian... Why? Were you expecting 25?

We're delving into the primordial soup of longneck banjos here...
There were many stages of innovation, and evolution.

If a 24-fret neck is too short... You can always go longer...


Source: http://www.alwaysontherun.net/karendalton.htm

The late Karen Dalton with her 27-fret banjo -- made by ODE
employee, Ray Chatfield, in the early-'60s


And another ultra-fancy ultra-longneck, by Chatfield, belonging to BHO
member, OldFolker:



And you think that YOU have a strap problem?!... I believe it requires TWO people
to actually play it!...

Best-
Ed Britt

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Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 02/17/2010 20:47:22

Basic Strum - Posted - 02/18/2010:  03:22:25

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quote:

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Originally posted by uncle.fogey

Thanks, Bill.
That's very interesting. I had not thought of wanting to play in F in C positions. I had thought that part of the logic of the Seeger was that you could play in F in G position if you wanted to. The original one Pete Seeger had John D'Angelico make only was lengthened by 2 frets, and I saw a Paramount that D'Angelico lengthened, also by 2 frets -that would be the "real" original Seeger length neck - goes to F. ( although I would play in F in C positions at the 5th fret myself). It's been a while since I played "the Coast of California", and can't remember what key I played it in. There's a 98 percent chance I got the chords from a Kingston Trio chords and lyrics book, that came out with each new album and transposed it. I remember a C minor ( I think). I'll have to reconstruct that one again - it was one of Dave Guard's best. I would have played it with a regular Seeger type longneck.

What's so interesting about these later alternative longnecks is that they assume that you're never going to play them open, at least not in some normal tuning. I'll admit, I rarely play mine open, but they sound otherworldly if you do.

Funny that this string started off about straps.

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Ken: If you learned "Coast" from the KT songbook, it's fairly miraculous that you got it right. I bought them, too, but they were pretty useless unless you played piano. The Trio did sing it in Fm, using key of C chords capoed +5, or +8 on Guard's Vega Pete Seeger Model, so your recollection of a Cm chord is correct. Pete Curry's TAB and the backstory are available in his "Pure Dave" book. To your point about being able to play in F at the first fret on a 25-fret banjo, while that's certainly true, it would have lacked the crisp punch required for Guard's interpretation of Si Me Quieres Escribir -- as you know, the Spanish Civil War tune whose melody was borrowed for "Coast." Ironically, perhaps, it was Seeger's wish to play a Spanish Civil War song down the neck, where the banjo has more presence, that inspired his visit to D'Angelico in the first place. Bill