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talentedmusic - Posted - 10/31/2009: 15:00:45
I was wondering if anyone has ever heard of a way of tunneling the fifth string on a banjo that normally has a peg at the fifth fret. Anybody out there tried that?
I've thought about it, but I would imagine one would have to remove the fretboard and make a tunnel below then reinstall it (all of which is outside my ability), making a route by removing the side inlay on the neck and making a tunnel below that and reinstalling the inlay, or something really tacky like installing railroad spikes along the neck somewhere up the the headstock.
"I swear—by my life and my love of it—that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine." - Ayn Rand
mike gregory - Posted - 10/31/2009: 17:59:50
I've done tunneling, but only during the construction phase of a new neck.
And I have done the thing where the string runs under a couple of pulleys ( I used those little brass rollers from the end of guitar strngs) and up along the side of the neck.
Another interesting way to do it, was to mount the loop of the string on a small nail at the side of the neck, and then run the string from there, over the pip, over the bridge, under the tailpiece, and to a guitar peg mounted on a wooden block held in place by teo of the brqacket hooks near the tailpiece.
On an existing neck, that's a LOT less work than trying to install a tunnel.
=):{ )
Mike Gregory, Banjo Maker Infraordinaire
When I say my instruments are as good as anything Gibson or Martin ever made,
I mean MEL Gibson and DEAN Martin!
My banjos can be seen on my own website
http://littlebanjos.lunare.net
See me & my SQUARED EEL banjo on the Y'all tube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97EfvhFgRBY
D.W. - Posted - 10/31/2009: 18:52:41
I would love to be able to contribute to this thread. All I can say is that- I got my tunneled 5th store bought from Bishline. Which meant - made during the creation/construction phase of the neck.
I would think to make a tunneled 5th for a banjo you already own... it would be better just to do a "repro" neck.
I've posted all the Bishline photos they sent me... (they didn't send any production photos of them doing the tunneled 5th). But on mine there's a metal tube and inside that a plastic type/looking tube (when visualizing the plastic tube imagine the plastic thingimajigies that that the jap/asian banjos slip over the 5th string to keep it from cutting into the binding).
Some people have called it a gimmick. But even if it is a gimmik... I love the tunneled 5th if only because it provides a different (and unique) sort of look from the regular type of banjo.
Anyway that's my 2 cents.
Best of luck on your project. Hope you post photos. Love to see them.
----------------------------------------------
"A life lived in fear is a life half lived."
- Fran, "Strictly Ballroom" (1992)
1four5 - Posted - 10/31/2009: 19:24:23
I can't remeber who, but several weeks ago someone was making a conversion tailpiece that had the 5th string tuner on it. If I remember right, he was going to market them. Same general idea of what Mike mentioned.
Edit: Found it,
http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/t...IC_ID=155873
Dean
Edited by - 1four5 on 10/31/2009 19:31:07
Gomer - Posted - 10/31/2009: 21:23:41
There is a Nechville Vintage floating around with tunneled 5th. a little steep, but just what you need.
( )=====’==::
Abundant Opinions - Speculative Advice - Marginal Judgment
jpiperson2002 - Posted - 10/31/2009: 22:19:26
quote:
Originally posted by talentedmusic
I was wondering if anyone has ever heard of a way of tunneling the fifth string on a banjo that normally has a peg at the fifth fret. Anybody out there tried that?
I tried to drill a tunnel for the 5th string in the neck of my Goodtime banjo. Removed the nut and planned to drill from the base of the nut slot to the hole at the base of the 5th string tuner. and then bring the string up through the fretboard and over a 5th string pip. So I bought a long thin drill bit which I thought would do the job. Three problems came up. 1st, the angles involved in positioning the drill bit correctly are very exacting and even a very small misalignment will miss the target after going through 6 inches of neck. 2nd, long thin drill bits are bendable and don't drill in exactly a straight line. 3rd, the Maple in the neck was very tough and heated the bit.
I gave it 3 tries, on the 1st try a small hole appeared in the underside of the neck, on the 2nd try a little bit of smoke started leaking out a tiny hole in the fretboard about an inch from where I was aiming, and on the 3rd try a considerable amount of smoke leaked out along the fret below the one I was aiming at. At that point I'd learned my lesson and patched up the 3 small holes and remounted the nut.
If a person were comfortable with woodworking they could cut a very thin shallow groove into the side of the neck running between the 5th string tuner and the nut. Then remove the tuner and run the 5th string through a tiny hole drilled into the fretboard and from there into the groove and have the string come out along side or through the face of the nut to an extra tuner mounted in the peg head.
To get a really nice tunnel with the 5th string though a thin metal tube in the neck I think you'd need to remove the fretboard and cut a groove into the neck to get the correct alignment and prevent any sharp bends in the tunnel. Much easier to do when the neck is being built than after the fretboard and frets have been added.
In other posts Mike Gregory (please correct me if I'm wrong) has suggested running the 5th string flat alongside the neck between the 5th string tuner position and the nut, just below the level of the fretboard, the 5th string being so thin that the left hand won't notice it.
I'm looking at my Goodtime neck again right now and considering using a thin dremel cutting wheel to cut a very thin and shallow groove from the 5th string tuner mounting hole up to the nut for the 5th string to lay in without protruding past the surface of the neck. Then run the string through a nut slot cut into the side edge of the nut and up to an extra tuner in the peg head.
Maybe I'll give it a try tomorrow, the worst that could happen is that I'd need to need to patch up the groove in the neck with some wood putty and remount the 5th string tuner. That's what I really love about the Goodtime. It sounds good and it's a relatively inexpensive project banjo which is really easy to work on. I wouldn't be cutting or drilling around like this on my Goldtone BG-250 with its fancier finish.
John Piper
Edited by - jpiperson2002 on 10/31/2009 22:34:24
talentedmusic - Posted - 11/01/2009: 07:39:11
Yeah, if you're willing to cut your banjo up a bit, go for it. I would think that a dremel with a carbide metal cutting tool would probably be easier to cut with than an abrasive disc.
My banjo isn't the greatest banjo on the planet, but I wouldn't attempt anything too drastic on mine. I like the idea of a tuner on the other end of the banjo. I just love the clean look and unobtrusive nature of a tunneled fifth string. I have four gold steinberger gearless tuners that I love quite a bit (way easier to use) and it looks odd with the one chrome tuner on the neck.
"I swear—by my life and my love of it—that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine." - Ayn Rand
silvioferretti - Posted - 11/01/2009: 07:47:03
I've only built one tunneled-5th banjo, but as always it's the project designing more than the actual building that allows you to understand the problems, and talking about it with people who have built a lot! So in my case it soon became apparent that the real problems with the tunnel lie in the curves that the tube (which is inside the tunnel) must take in order to emerge on the fingerboard's surface. If those curves - upward and sideways - are sharp bends then the string will be caught and kinked there, and you won't be able to tune it. The tunnel's exit at the peghead is not much of a problem instead. So yes, to answer your question in a few words the best / only way to do the job is to do it when building the neck, not afterwards.
"If you're gonna have a vice, try to find one that will keep you outta jail and maybe alive a little longer" - Alvin Youngblood Hart.
Silvio Ferretti http://www.scorpionmusic.com
http://www.redwinemusic.net
1four5 - Posted - 11/01/2009: 08:00:09
quote:
I just love the clean look and unobtrusive nature of a tunneled fifth string
Have you considered a full length 5th string ? (Yates WL-5, or "Hazen" after market neck). The more I play mine (Hazen neck), the less I understand the logic of the short 5th string.
http://www.banjohangout.ws/banjohan...26102009.jpgDean
Edited by - 1four5 on 11/01/2009 08:02:08
talentedmusic - Posted - 11/01/2009: 13:06:45
Yeah, I really like the full length fifth string... I've experimented with it on an electric guitar. I found it's a little bit difficult to tune a .009" D string up a fourth without it sounding odd or breaking, and most well designed banjos, like the WL-5 are too expensive.
"I swear—by my life and my love of it—that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine." - Ayn Rand
mike gregory - Posted - 11/01/2009: 15:06:24
They make a 0.009, and also make a 0.008
Give that a try.
Still, that would only be worth doing on a neck that's 5 strings wide, all the way up.
If your banjo is already made, and you can't afford a neck, the groove and guides is a LOT better idea, with the peg at the head, and the pin to tailpeg is my own favorite.
jpiperson2002 - Posted - 11/01/2009: 16:45:05
It took a couple of hours to install a 5th tuner on the peg head of my Goodtime open back and to run the 5th string through a hole in the fretboard into the old tuner well, and from there into a shallow groove in the neck up to the left side of the nut and onto the new tuner in the peg head.
First a small drop of glue behind the nut to hold it in place. Then mounted an extra planetary tuner from Stewmac, centered and below midpoint for string clearance. In this picture the 5th string comes off a notch midway up the left side of the nut and passes under the 3rd and 4th strings on the way to its tuner;
I removed the old 5th string tuner and then drilled a tiny hole into the fretboard to lead the 5th string to exit into the tuner well about 1/3 inch inside the opening. Then used a dremel tool and small cutting blade to cut a shallow notch from the edge of the tuner well to the left side of the nut. The string groove is positioned just below the level of the exposed fret wire ends.
A blue glass bead was pressed firmly into the mouth of the empty 5th string tuner well to cover the hole;
It's easy enough to change the 5th string and it works fine so far. It's a bit easier to play since the side tuner is missing from the neck and it looks a bit more streamlined;
This was one of those 'I'd do a couple of things differently next time' projects.
- The dremel blade was a bad idea it gave an unnecessarily wide and wavey channel. Next time I'd just use a sharp point run along a flexible straight edge to scribe the string groove into the side of the neck. Straight and narrow and shallow so that it looks more like a deep scratch than a groove, just big enough to hold a .10 string below surface of the wood. I used the points of jeweler files to clean and shape the dremeled channel but the wide channel shows too much and isn't as straight as I'd like. It isn't noticeable to the touch while playing though.
- The exit hole for the string should deep enough into the tuner well that the string is pulled tight into the base of the groove. It would probably be better to line the hole with a thin metal tube so the string doesn't cut a deep notch into the fretboard wood.
So I really like the way it turned out, except maybe for the cosmetics of the string groove which is a bit too wide and uneven for my taste. Since this is my project banjo it's a perfect platform for this sort of wood butchery.
John Piper
1four5 - Posted - 11/01/2009: 16:55:33
quote:
...I found it's a little bit difficult to tune a .009" D string up a fourth without it sounding odd or breaking...
No disrespect to the poster, but I have to comment on this. I've read this type of statement several times over, sometimes from people with experience, even popular forum names, sometimes from people with none, they are just purpetuating a myth, or speculating. I don't understand the trouble, as it's not been my experience at all. My initial experience with a full length string tuned to high G, is the normal high G string on an old 12 string I had, and restringing our rhythm guitarist's 12 string guitar. Usually an .008 or .009. There are a lot of 12 string guitars out there. I've never broke a high G string on a 12 string guitar. There's no difference between that or stringing full length .008 or .009 on banjo neck that can accept it, and tuning it up to a high G. I prefer .010 and have been doing it on my Telecaster since 2005, and I play the crap out of it. I built my first full length 5th string banjo in 2006, and gigged with it for nearly two years and never broke a string on it. I've been playing my current full length 5th string banjo neck all summer. I've been using .010 strings on mine from the start and have never broke one or had any trouble tuning them up to high G. As for the sound, I actually like it better, as it's fuller and has more depth, which (just my personal opinion) puts it in a better balance with the other strings. If someone is breaking their high G string, weather it's full length or a traditional shorty, I'd be looking for sharp edges/bends on a bridge, tailpiece, or improperly cut nut, or improperly wrapped tuner peg, etc....
Dean
Edited by - 1four5 on 11/01/2009 17:13:58
mike gregory - Posted - 11/01/2009: 17:19:43
My sediments eggsnackly, Dean. Seldom broke a high G on any of my 12-strings.
But, for a neck already narrowed, jpiperson2002 shows almost what I would have done.
Only difference, slot a piece of scrap wood to clear the frets, and use the flat top of that piece as the edge to provide a straight surface to run a hand tool along, to scribe the groove.
And it needn't be very deep. After all, 0.010 is pretty darned skinny.
Just go lightly, and keep retracing until the goroove is deep enough.
Trying to get the whole thing done in ONE dig, will result in a sloppier job.
talentedmusic - Posted - 11/01/2009: 17:54:24
I'll be responding to a few posts...
No offense intended Dean... I've had better luck tuning up to G with a string larger than .009... I think now my 5 string banjo-guitar high G is strung with an extra .011 or .013 (don't remember which) since the .009 broke stringing it up... I've never strung up a banjo that way since I do not have a full length G, but the guitar is a nice yamaha with a Floyd, locking nut, and 1.5" shorter scale length than a banjo. In my case, a .009 broke.
I would prefer a full length banjo over a short one, since it opens up a few more playing possibilities and capoing would be much simpler. I wouldn't mind the slight difference in tone in a more tensioned string. Money is the main obstacle at the moment... If I could get a Nechville Phantom with a full length five, it'd be nearly ideal. Even if I had the money, I would have a hard time spending 3-5k on a banjo just to get the features that come standard on a $300 guitar. My idea of a $3k banjo would be similar to a Parker Fly.... I've not found a better playing guitar than that.
From one John P. to another John P. it looks nice considering that it was done with less than ideal tools! A for effort and for having enough guts to cut apart a banjo you're very fond of!
It seems that the man who made the tunable 5th string bridge hasn't made them readily available yet...
I've also thought of a flush mounted fifth string tuner that mounts flush in the neck where it normally is, and tunable with some sort of allen key. I don't think anyone's made that quite yet.
"I swear—by my life and my love of it—that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine." - Ayn Rand
mike gregory - Posted - 11/01/2009: 18:43:45
Partial quopte:
"I've also thought of a flush mounted fifth string tuner that mounts flush in the neck
where it normally is, and tunable with some sort of allen key.
I don't think anyone's made that quite yet. "
Zither pin's getting kind of close, though, ain't it?
I'm thinking that you're thinking of something that sticks out less.
Socket-head bolt, perhaps. Sticks out maybe a quarter inch, maximum.
And a violin fine-tuner, down between the bridge and the tailpiece, for micro-adjustments.
(Shown here LARGER than life size.)
Back in the 60's, lots of banjo pickers used the fiddle tuner on the 5th,
since darn few of us had geared 5th pegs,
and tuning the non-gear 5th was a pain in the pants.
Can't help but notice that, as questions arise,
my Rube Goldberg cells seem to receive adrenalin
directly from the computer screen.
Think I may cobble up an experimental, and post afew pictures.
You guys & gals are making a genius out of Mom & Dad Gregory's best-looking boy.
Edited by - mike gregory on 11/01/2009 18:48:31
1four5 - Posted - 11/01/2009: 19:19:20
quote:
I would prefer a full length banjo over a short one, since it opens up a few more playing possibilities and capoing would be much simpler
BHO member "Hazen" built my neck for me. He'll build anything you want to any specs, to fit your existing banjo. He also playes a full length 5th string banjo.
Dean
goldtopia - Posted - 11/01/2009: 23:18:58
I don't know why a tunnelled 5th string is not common with all banjos. It would make things so much easier for the player. The only dissadvantage is that it would add quite a bit onto the cost,
Bill.O
www.bluegrassminstrels.co.uk
BanjoBach - Posted - 11/02/2009: 04:31:35
What can I say, but a BIG Thank you for the topic and contributions. I plan to make an open-back banjo or two and you have opened up a whole new thought pattern for me.
Keep on posting the new, the old, the weird and the wonderful ideas. Many on here have grown up with the banjo and have seen more than I ever expect to experience directly.
But you guys are a huge asset to new folk like me to the banjo.
_______________________________________________
I'm a man who is frailing in life.
rudy - Posted - 11/02/2009: 05:34:09
Interesting discussion, all. Since I'm pretty firmly rooted in the alternative-fifth camp I'll add that there's been some nice discussion of the topic in threads past. forum search might be of help here. The most important concept when considering a tunneled fifth is to eliminate as many points for friction as possible in the string path. Any bend or contact points hold string tension and contribute to tuning problems. The string path should be as straight as possible with minimal bends. Tht's why it's best if the tnneled fifth is designed into the neck when built.
Disclaimer: The following is my signature and NOT part of this post!!!
Visit my website for assorted banjo construction information:
http://www.bluestemstrings.com/page...onTips1.html
talentedmusic - Posted - 11/02/2009: 09:00:12
Yes, Mr. Gregory, it would be more ideal if it didn't stick out quite as much.
It is possible to remove a fretboard... I've found one of many articles on how to do it. http://www.projectguitar.com/tut/removal.htm I doubt that I'll try it anytime soon, but it's always an option for someone who's more adventurous.
Yeah Dean, I'll look into Hazen. I am fond of my banjo for the most part and having a new neck made is probably the best way. I'm good at woodworking, if it were not for the fretwork and nut making, I'd try building a neck of my own.
Thanks BanjoBach! I try to think outside of the box when it comes to banjo construction. It's amazing how many banjoists there are around the world; it's probably a safe bet that bluegrass is more popular outside the states.
"I swear—by my life and my love of it—that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine." - Ayn Rand
1four5 - Posted - 11/02/2009: 09:09:52
quote:
I'm good at woodworking, if it were not for the fretwork and nut making
making a nut is just like woodworking, only the material is a little harder
It's really not that hard, and the materials are cheap, so you can keep trying until you get a good one. As for frets... I shyed away from them for years. I finally got up the taters to try a fret job on my Goodtime. It was WAY easier than I thought, and I only used basic tools found in most tool boxes. Nothing special and it came out great. Not only that, but it only cost $12 in fretwire (stainless steal no less!) and a few hours of my time... instead of the $200+ a local luthier wanted to charge. If you are good at woodworking, and can build a neck, you've got 98% of it whupped!
Dean
mike gregory - Posted - 11/02/2009: 09:48:45
I have removed a few fingerboards.
Just wouldn't bother to do it for the SOLE PURPOSE of putting in a tunnel.
In the words of
The HARDY Boys........................and Mary WORTH,
it's Hardy/Worth the effort.
talentedmusic - Posted - 11/02/2009: 09:53:58
Yeah, I made a banjo this last wicked cold Minnesota winter... It turned out fine, but the most difficult parts that I had a hard time with and still need work are the heel of the neck (difficult to shape to fit hoop), the fretwork didn't turn out quite as nice as I would have liked (a few high frets), and the nut I bought off of ebay. If I had a bunch of money to spend at stewmac, I would have bought the fretting tools and some nut files.
Some pictures of my creation... I picked up most of the wood from the home depot (maple, poplar), a little bit some red african wood that I picked up at Rockler the goes up the middle of the neck as it was laminated, and the rosewood fingerboard I cut and planed out of a big chunk my uncle gave me (apparently, he could have grabbed about 20 of these large chunks of rosewood for free, but only took one). I cut the hoop out of a large block of laminated poplar. The large piece of rosewood is for sale if anybody wants it. It's probably the most dense wood I've ever seen, way more so than the rosewood I've seen at exotic wood stores. All in all, it turned out fine, but not as nice to play as my factory made resonator banjo.
"I swear—by my life and my love of it—that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine." - Ayn Rand
talentedmusic - Posted - 11/02/2009: 10:02:53
Oh, if any of you want to hear what it sounds like, I made a video last summer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtytVUUqpU0
I have a few others of me playing... This whole banjo experience is only been a little over a year for me, but I feel I'm progressing well. One of me playing Bill Evan's Distance Between Two Points... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlzC_WqL7us
"I swear—by my life and my love of it—that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine." - Ayn Rand
mike gregory - Posted - 11/02/2009: 10:07:57
What a FINE looking banjo!
Sounds good on the Y'alltube, too!
"I swear-by my life and my love of it- that I will never forgive my parents for not knowing how to spell ANN." -Ayn Rand 
Edited by - mike gregory on 11/02/2009 10:12:03
1four5 - Posted - 11/02/2009: 10:15:50
HOLY SMOKES!!! you built that and I'm trying to answer your questions?
Building something like that is still but a dream for me! VERY NICE! Helix and Hazen built mine... I just assembled the pieces...
Dean
Edited by - 1four5 on 11/02/2009 10:17:21
talentedmusic - Posted - 11/02/2009: 10:43:29
Thanks for the compliments! I've built some odd instruments over the years, but this turned out the best. I've made a couple electric basses and one Chapman Stick (8 string Bass/Guitar) for tapping... I wish that I had all the machinery and tools... I'd be making my ultra-tech banjo with graphite/carbon fiber full length five neck , with a bunch of hardware I'd machine myself.
Until that day... Or until some instrument maker snatches me up... I'll probably doing menial work.
"I swear—by my life and my love of it—that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine." - Ayn Rand
mike gregory - Posted - 11/02/2009: 17:32:55
Well, HE
, dude!
If you're going to machine your own hardware, why not design a tailppiece that incorporates the tuners?
You could still have a traditionally shaped peghead, with zither pegs to take up most of the slack, and violin fine-tuners at the tailpiece, for precision.
And just a small nail to hang the loop of the 5th string on, with its tuner up there on the tailpiece with the rest.
talentedmusic - Posted - 11/02/2009: 18:11:10
I wish I could machine out the parts... I need a mill and a lathe of some sort. I spent a year in college in machining, before I gave it up for the four year route, so I could if I had the machines. One of these days I'll go to harbor freight and get some sort of rudimentary mill.
If I had a mill I could mill out necks really quickly and accurately... dreams...
I was also thinking of another way to route the tunnel, although not ideal... Remove frets 1-4, route out a tunnel for a copper tube, fill it in with some sort of filler, clean up the fret slot where glue meets the fret, and reinstall the frets. One would have to be careful not to route the tube with any friction causing corners...
"I swear—by my life and my love of it—that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine." - Ayn Rand
dpete210 - Posted - 11/03/2009: 11:10:05
Beautiful job, talentedmusic! Well done!
Any day playing music is a GOOD day.
jpiperson2002 - Posted - 11/07/2009: 20:46:05
After taking a close look an my banjo teacher's Stealth banjo with the tunneled 5th string I decided to bury a tube for the 5th string on my Goodtime under the edge of the neck (between the 5th fret and the nut) instead of leaving it exposed as shown above. I deepened and widened the string groove along the side of the neck and glued in a piece of 3/32 in dia brass tuning just below the surface of the neck and a little under the bases of the fretwires;
With a bit of bending I was able to run one end of the tubing into the old 5th string tuner well and up through the hole in the neck and then glued it in place. One end of the tube was filed flush where it exited the fretboard and the other ended immediately next to the left side of the nut. The 5th string exits across a notch cut in the lower left edge of the nut and up to a 5th tuner in the peghead.
Then I filled in the gap along the tube and the inside of the old tuner well with plastic wood and sanded it smooth to remove the hump in the side of the neck where the old tuner used to be;
Here you can see the 5th string coming out of a notch in the left edge of the nut and onto a regular planetary tuner in the middle of the peg head;
Was it worth it? Well, it wasn't as difficult as I'd expected. Now that the neck is more streamlined it's easier to play since the 5th string tuner doesn't get in the way. The main problem with the change is cosmetic. The Goodtime uses unstained blonde Maple so the spots where the neck was filled are a slightly different color than the natural wood. It isn't noticeable to bystanders while I'm playing but I might eventually stain the sides of the neck and the peghead (but not the fretboard) a darker color to cover up the patch more effectively.
Edited by - jpiperson2002 on 11/08/2009 04:55:38
mike gregory - Posted - 11/08/2009: 03:04:13
Those pics seem to illustrate a rather elegant solution for getting a tunnel put in an existing neck.
Far less work than removing the fretboard.
Two observations from a silly old man:
1. It may affect the strength of the neck, and its ability to resist twisting, to have material removed from under the heaviest string. I'm not worried, but let us know if it DOES happen.
2. The slickest way I ever saw, for bending tubing without kinking, was to plug one end, fill it with water, and stand it in a freezer overnight. Ice is noncompressible, so the tubing doesn't flatten. Once the bending is done, a dip in warm water, and the ice is gone without a trace.
Looks good.
=):{ )
Mike Gregory, Banjo Maker Infraordinaire
When I say my instruments are as good as anything Gibson or Martin ever made,
I mean MEL Gibson and DEAN Martin!
My banjos can be seen on my own website
http://littlebanjos.lunare.net
See me & my SQUARED EEL banjo on the Y'all tube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97EfvhFgRBY
Edited by - mike gregory on 11/08/2009 03:05:57
Helix - Posted - 11/22/2009: 16:34:16
Elegant indeed, exquisite.
