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MTBanjo - Posted - 10/28/2009: 15:58:04
Any way to get the chords to his 5 string Irish banjo book? Any not-so-popular song that I learn, I need to try to figure out the chords to play it with anybody (if they don't know the song already, which they typically don't). There are also songs like Blackberry Blossom that have some really cool sounding stuff in the B part, but if you just play the "normal" Blackberry Blossom chords, it's not there...the guitar player behind his banjo on the cd must be thowing some other chords in there to make it sound the way it does. I know I'm being a bit lazy here not sitting down and figuring out the chords behind the melody myself, but I only have so much time to play...
Zach
Edited by - MTBanjo on 11/05/2009 14:30:27
Nosferatu - Posted - 10/28/2009: 18:54:24
I asked Tom about that one time. He more or less said, he wanted the music to stay with the Irish feeling and not the American feeling where the back up plays only chords.
Thank you,
"Count" Hugh
"I bent over him, and tried to find any sign of life, but in vain." -- Jonathan Harker, Dracula
RenoStyles - Posted - 10/31/2009: 01:06:15
Irish sessions are characterised by everyone playing the melody together!! It can be interesting when a "trad" musician drops into a bluegrass session and the two cultures collide!!
MTBanjo - Posted - 11/02/2009: 09:35:02
I see. Ok. I can hear the guitar player in the background switching chords a lot more often than we do when it's a bluegrass song, just wanted to know what the chords were.
I understand about Irish music & the melody, but although I know that's what his book is geared toward (playing in Irish sessions), I'm using it to play the songs in bluegrass jams, etc., so I was hoping for some info on how to get the sounds on the cd that came with the book.
I guess someday when my ear is better and I know more music and theory, I'll be able to figure it out myself.
Zach
Tom Hanway - Posted - 11/05/2009: 01:47:27
Zach - Thank you for purchasing my book and CD (which now come together). You can email me off-list and I will be happy to answer any of your questions.
Okay, it’s not an “Irish banjo book”, but an Irish & Celtic 5-string banjo book, with melodies and strains from the other five Celtic nations, the Celtic diaspora and Celtica. All Irish music is Celtic, but not all Celtic music is Irish. Recognizing that and being able to distinguish between Celtic styles leads directly into germane back-up approaches, whether they be characteristically Irish or not. Music is listening.
See the glossary in Mel Bay's Complete Book of Irish & Celtic 5-String Banjo, which is cross-referenced, explaining the various tune types and pointing out the similarities and differences between bluegrass, old-time and Celtic styles. It's all there.
A word to the wise: Guitarists who want to get into more sophisticated Celtic chord-back-up must listen to Shetland tune backers, especially guitarists. 
Zach, it ain't bluegrass, try as you may. If you want to squeeze Irish music into bluegrass chords, or bop into bluegrass chords, well, good luck.
Honestly, you're better off getting into the "tradition" and not trying to squeeze one "trad" style (or stereotype) into another. That's my advice. There's trad jazz, trad bluegrass, trad Irish, trad country, trad rock'n'roll.... Here's a strategy: Learn how to back bluegrass fiddle tunes - say on guitar - and really develop your ear.
You don't want to be rigid in your expressions or get hung up on labels, either-or thinking, us vs. them, or cultural biases. That would be embracing ignorance and stereotypes.
Of course there are amazing “backing” players in the Celtic traditions who play harmonically sophisticated and flexible back-up, playing counter-melodies, cross rhythms, and even improvising chord changes based on the variations that tune players are playing in the moment. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise, who hasn't really listened to or learned from such talented players.
Keep learning (for yourself) and don't be lazy about it (as you mentioned quite candidly). Nobody can take your learning (or ear training) away from you! Nobody.
But since you bring up Irish trad, let’s focus on that. The chords in Irish traditional music are not written in stone and can be re-harmonized endlessly, and they are, from one pass to the next.
You don't want to put them in stone or tell/ask others which are the "right" chords. It's explained in the book, so I won’t rehash it here. This is a melodic tradition, not a harmony-oriented one. Learn the melodies first; really learn them; the chord options will become much more obvious then.
I recommend that you learn the tunes, one at a time, and then let your ear be your guide. Also, that you listen to Irish tune backers, on piano, guitar, bouzouki, mandolin, etc. Also listen to tune backers from other Celtic traditions. You can learn a lot about chords from listening to good piano players who know how to listen and improvise.
What many folks don't take into account is that Irish music is not American bluegrass or jazz or country or rock, etc. Neither is Celtic music, which means many different things and has many different stylistic and regional approaches.
Irish traditional playing comes from an altogether different musical culture (and idiom) and the quest for immutable chords is a quixotic one. In strict Irish sessions, for example, boom-chuck guitar players are not exactly welcome – because they can take over rhythmically and harmonically, ignoring or pounding over nuances of melody and rhythm – being oblivious to it, not having really listened to Irish backers.
It's not jazz (sock rhythm) either, though having a country/bluegrass/jazz background will help you immensely in terms of hearing keys and tonal centers, not that you have to play every chord that you hear -- that is, if you want it to sound Irish or Celtic.
Shetland and Capo Breton guitarists sound very much like Texas swing guitarists, using sock rhythms and playing steady “changes” as you would find in Western Swing. But they know the tunes and aren't playing just any old changes.
You cannot distil the living breathing music into a two-dimensional-flatland chord chart. Pardon me for saying so, but some folks cannot seem to learn this or live in some musical fantasy that needs to control and reduce everything. Be flexible and keep learning.
Say if somebody is speaking to you in Gaelic and you can sort of understand the gist of what they're saying, by the context, but can only reply to them in English, then there's still a linguistic/cultural barrier, even if YOU KNOW what YOU’RE saying. Dig?
Happy pickin,
Tom Hanway
Please visit me on MySpace for iTunes and Mel Bay stores.
Please see my homepage for more links and digital stores via Universal.
Nobody has all the tunes, but everybody has a piece of the tradition.
Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy. - W. B. Yeats
Edited by - Tom Hanway on 11/05/2009 04:20:20
MTBanjo - Posted - 11/05/2009: 06:59:26
Thank you very much for the post.
I understand what you're saying. I'm not really trying to force it into bluegrass...I just used the "bluegrass jam" example because it's shorter to say that than "people I play with who do play mostly bluegrass, but we basically play anything, from rock/folk/bluegrass/fiddle tunes/hip hop"
...but there are just some sounds you get playing on the cd that I really like. Some songs I learned just because of one really cool sounding part...then realized that unless you know what chord the back up guitarist is playing behind it...the sound isn't there. So that's what prompted my post.
I do play mostly bluegrass, but I'll play anything, and I love a lot of the music in your book (why I bought it obviously) and I'd hate to just force it all into bluegrass. I just like the way things sound on the cd so I was trying to replicate it. Honestly...I love bluegrass but really don't listen to much of it. I go through phases with it and I definitely listen to a lot of banjo music, but not too much bluegrass.
Plus...I know that I won't be stepping into any Celtic (thanks for the correction there. I did read the intro to your book and have a bit of an understanding about it, but don't live & breathe it like you, so I tend to throw some terms around a little loosely, I know, but I should make an effort to use the correct language) sessions any time soon. So for me, I learn all these songs...and don't have anyone to play them with. So usually I'll go find the chords somewhere, so next time I'm playing music with friends (who may not have a desire to learn Celtic style guitar/mando whatever), I can say "hey let's try this, these are the chords".
I know that's not what your book is necessarily for, but until I get up to speed a bit better, and/or meet some people at my level trying to get into this kind of music...I'd like to be able to play these songs with someone! That's basically why I was asking for the chords. Not to "make it fit" into a bluegrass style. I live in Montana...which is good and bad. Lot's of Irish came here during the mining boom, and so we have that going for us. There are some good Irish festivals and traditions. But it's a big, spread out, unpopulated state (I think the most recent census may have finally put us over 1 million populaton for the whole state), so there aren't endless groups of people to meet up with. There is one group I regularly see at a local bar that plays this kind of music. I'm definitely nowhere near ready to ask if I can sit in with them. I think my ability level is there, just not my knowledge of enough tunes, and mostly the etiquette part. I'll get there, though.
Anyways, thanks again for the post. For now, I'll see what I can figure out for the chords on my own, so I can at least play this stuff with friends, but I'll make an effort to find people who want to play it the more traditional way.
Don't worry, I'm not trying to bluegrass-ize it, I'm just trying to make it so I can play it with people! 
Zach
Tom Hanway - Posted - 11/05/2009: 12:33:35
quote:
Originally posted by MTBanjo
Thank you very much for the post.
*snip* Some songs I learned just because of one really cool sounding part...then realized that unless you know what chord the back-up guitarist is playing behind it...the sound isn't there. So that's what prompted my post.
I do play mostly bluegrass, but I'll play anything, and I love a lot of the music in your book (why I bought it obviously) and I'd hate to just force it all into bluegrass. I just like the way things sound on the cd so I was trying to replicate it. Honestly...I love bluegrass but really don't listen to much of it. I go through phases with it and I definitely listen to a lot of banjo music, but not too much bluegrass.
*snip* So for me, I learn all these songs...and don't have anyone to play them with. So usually I'll go find the chords somewhere, so next time I'm playing music with friends (who may not have a desire to learn Celtic style guitar/mando whatever), I can say "hey let's try this, these are the chords".
*snip* I'd like to be able to play these songs with someone! That's basically why I was asking for the chords. Not to "make it fit" into a bluegrass style. I live in Montana... *snip* so there aren't endless groups of people to meet up with. There is one group I regularly see at a local bar that plays this kind of music. I'm definitely nowhere near ready to ask if I can sit in with them. I think my ability level is there, just not my knowledge of enough tunes, and mostly the etiquette part. I'll get there, though.
Anyways, thanks again for the post. For now, I'll see what I can figure out for the chords on my own, so I can at least play this stuff with friends, but I'll make an effort to find people who want to play it the more traditional way.
Don't worry, I'm not trying to bluegrass-ize it, I'm just trying to make it so I can play it with people!
Zach
Zach - I hear you loud and clear; you just want to play the tunes and get the cool-sounding chords happening..... But you need to be looking for people who know more than you - not less, if you really want to learn chord-backing approaches. You friends, if they don't know, can't educate you, and you cannot educate them, if you don't know. "Looking for chords in all the wrong places, looking for chords in all the wrong spaces...." (Sorry.)
Don't feel out of it - Gabriel, the guitar player you are listening to on the Mel Bay recording, is nothing short of a musical genius, just so you know - see the anecdote below about his sacred transcriptions with the Boston Pops.
First, this is a lifelong journey my friend. Hang in there. All will be revealed, if you ... listen to the river sing sweet songs....
My book/CD is just pointing the way, but it's your job to get into the music (any music, of course), even to listen to it, to come up with chords, to come up with alternative chords, to try different chords here, hey, what happens if you do this ... oops, that doesn't work, how 'bout this, yeah, that sounds good, what's next.... What about this instead, followed by these chords. Oh, that's a nice variation.... Oh, that's weird, but I like it....
This is funny: For the Mel Bay CD I asked Gabriel Donohue (steel- and nylon-string guitar and piano) and Robbie Walsh (last year's All-Ireland Bodhrán Champion - Fleadh Cheoil na hÉireann) to back me. We recorded that in almost 100 degree heat in a tiny garage up in Connecticut, fuelled by ice-cold Bud in two huge coolers packed in ice, case after case of it. (We won't tell that to Guinness).
Gabriel has recorded CDs with the Boston Pops Orchestra, who once scored (transcribed) his backing guitar parts, for when he came back to play with them again. These are parts he didn't remember playing or bother to read, because he was making them up in the first place. EVERY time.
He told me this and chuckled about it because the score was placed in front of him, like a sacred scripture on a symphony hall music stand. He wasn't going to fold it up and stick it in his pocket, though it wouldn't have mattered. True story!
So the guitarist whose guitar parts you want handed to you ... doesn't even read his own parts when they're handed to him by the professional engraver for the Boston Pops Orchestra.
So, what's he doing? He's a piano player, first of all, and that informs his guitar backing ability.
You're a plainspoken fellow and I admire you for that. So, good shepherd, you like the back-up, especially in spots, which makes the tunes for you, but can you get off on the melodies themselves? Are you comfortable playing the melodies yourself, without the back-up? If so, even if it's just for two or three tunes, you can join the session.
Hey, not for nothin', it's okay to use the term "Irish" (instead of Celtic), but they mean different things. I don't use the term "Celtic" at Irish sessions, and all my friends who play trad avoid the term on their MySpace sites - preferring terms like Acoustic or Folk.
You wrote: "I'd like to be able to play these songs with someone!" Also, "There is one group I regularly see at a local bar that plays this kind of music. I'm definitely nowhere near ready to ask if I can sit in with them. I think my ability level is there, just not my knowledge of enough tunes, and mostly the etiquette part. I'll get there, though."
Woah! You said it, just do it, hang out and listen and watch. Get there early and introduce yourself to people and bring a recording device and ask permission to tape the session so you can listen to the tunes later. Is it a tunes session? You want a session with one good guitar backer, or a piano. Too many guitarists can kill a session.
Become part of the scene, a listener, and don't expect your friends to do the work for you, i.e., learning chords that work, especially if they're not really into Celtic music, which you have stated. That's just a label, either they're into learning good music, or they're not.
You need to find a guitarist - an older person perhaps - who already knows how to play. Don't expect the mountain to come to you.
You have to go to the mountain, and you said just as much above. Just do it.
By the way, I don't ever "worry" that someone is "trying to bluegrass-ize" Irish music. I never say that. In fact, there are times when I create musical hybrids, willingly, joyfully, creatively, devilishly. I have no problem throwing in Monroe's 'Jerusalem Ridge' into an Irish session, or playing a fast Irish reel like the 'Mason's Apron' in a bluegrass band. (That one is one of my .mp3s on BHO if you care to listen.)
I suggested that you learn how to back standard bluegrass fiddle tunes on guitar to develop your ear; also to listen to piano players. Learn to back tunes without a capo as well, for example in the major keys of G, A, C, D and E. Then there are the other three Celtic modes, including the natural minor or Aeolian mode, also the Dorian and Mixolydian modes.
Once you've gotten into playing and listening to tunes, there's a useful book, especially for guitar players, by Chris Smith, called Celtic Back-Up.
Get recordings of Cape Breton, Shetland and Irish groups who have piano players - listen to Gabriel on my CD. He's an even better piano player than he is a guitarist (well, maybe).
Look at the back of the book - I have a whole Artists section in the Appendices. These recordings still exist and are easily obtained.
Last, you wrote: "Honestly...I love bluegrass but really don't listen to much of it."
How can you really appreciate a style of music without listening to it more than casually or cursorily?
I have a sneaking suspicion that you're all about playing, but another word to the wise:
You don't want to be a jack of all trades and a master of none. Get a "tradition" down. Bluegrass is a great tradition, singing, playing lead and back-up, working in a band, writing songs, coming up with arrangements, the whole journey. It's very gratifying to play bluegrass right, and it takes serious woodshedding and commitment, and it's hard work.
I like your Jerry Garcia-style approach, when you say "hey, let's try this, these are the chords." Well, Jerry was determined; he knew that the burden of figuring out the chords has to be left up to somebody, and it could be anybody, and it had to be him. He learned by doing, not by expecting someone to do the work for him. That's lesson one.
Irish music, like all music, is listening and the *real classroom* is between your ears, not on a chalkboard, computer screen, CD, DVD, YouTube video, or a sheet of dead paper.
It's not on guitarist Gabriel Donohue's music stand when he's accompanying the Boston Pops.
Happy pickin,
Tom Hanway
Please visit me on MySpace for iTunes and Mel Bay stores.
Please see my homepage for more links and digital stores via Universal.
Nobody has all the tunes, but everybody has a piece of the tradition.
Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy. - W. B. Yeats
Edited by - Tom Hanway on 11/05/2009 12:46:33
MTBanjo - Posted - 11/05/2009: 14:29:21
So...take home message: Everything will be illuminated.
IF I do the hard work, and that's the answer I usually get, and usually come to myself when I think about it.
I'll try not make excuses..but when I said I go through phases, that's the truth. When I listen to bluegrass (or anything), I really listen. I mean the song/album doesn't leave my cd player for a week or two, and the songs don't leave my head, and I get them memorized. Banjo, vocals, other instruments; I can play it all back in my head. So I don't feel that I'm being lazy and not really listening to the styles that I like to play. I have been feeling for a while now like I need to go back and really listen to all the bluegrass standards, as done by the masters, because I haven't really done that.
It will be the same with this style music, too, I know. I love what I've heard, I love what I know how to play already, but I really haven't listened to it nearly enough to know how it all works together, so thank you for reminding me of that.
I understand about Gabriel. He knows what he's doing. He sits down and plays what he feels, so there isn't really a point in writing it down. I like that. And I guess it's what I've noticed watching the guitar players at the session when I do watch. They're all over the place. Sometimes it seems like they're playing a chordal melody?, but always changing up the rythm, honestly I have no clue what they're doing, but it's fun to watch.
I can (and do, every time I practice) play the melodies without backup.
So...if I ought to master a style...I suppose bluegrass would be best, only because it seems to be so easy to find people to play with. And of course I do love it.
I happen to have a guitar. I'll start learning to back up some fiddle tunes.
Geez, ask for some chords and I get a life lesson in music! I love it. Just like the "muscle tension" thread. Everything comes down to everything else. You ask how to be more relaxed playing, and suddenly we're talking about higher powers, phsycology etc. Nothing like deep thinking about "simple" things and shallow thinking about complex things to really open up the old mind and get you thinking.
Thanks again. I'm spending most of my playing time right now getting caught up with some new people I'm playing with. They've got a big setlist...and it gets bigger all the time and I never used to make the effort to learn a whole bunch of songs before, so I've got a lot of catch-up to do, but I'm getting there, and every now and then I manage to set it all aside and just work on stuff I want to work on, and that's when I'll do this stuff. Like just this last Monday, when I got the first part of Nyth y Gog down.... Hopefully the rest tonight.
Zach
Tom Hanway - Posted - 11/06/2009: 03:09:33
Zach - You got it all happening man. "It all begins with an idea...", as Nashville producer Bil VornDick likes to say. Do for yourself and then it's never anybody else's job (or fault).
When I was studying with Tony Trischka, he used to say: "Don't Practice Mistakes" - and this is great advice. Go slowly and get the notes and chords, right off the bat, also the spacing, timing, accents and inflections down, then get your tempo and groove right and experiment with sound. "Own it", as David Bromberg likes to say.
It all begins with the idea - the intention - and the rest is follow through and perserverance ... whatever it takes.
You already got it.
Happy pickin,
Tom Hanway
Please visit me on MySpace for iTunes and Mel Bay stores.
Please see my homepage for more links and digital stores via Universal.
Nobody has all the tunes, but everybody has a piece of the tradition.
Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy. - W. B. Yeats
MTBanjo - Posted - 11/06/2009: 06:27:55
Great, thanks a lot Tom. I've definitely got some work to do.
Zach
Tom Hanway - Posted - 11/08/2009: 04:12:33
quote:
Originally posted by MTBanjo
Great, thanks a lot Tom. I've definitely got some work to do.
Zach
Join the club! No problem Zach. You just have to do it for yourself, and that way you've really learned it (whatever it is).
Hey, I'm going over classic breaks to 'Clinch Mountain Backstep' - reviewing an up-the-neck break I made up, and going back to JD's version of 'Old Home Place' for a gig today, just so I can call them up automatically. Then I can change things to suit the situation.
I'm actually listening to the Skynyrd version of Merle Haggard's 'Honky Tonky Night Time Man' to get ideas from the electric guitar and piano. I like rock licks on the banjo ... always did. And where I'm playing today, I'm kinda like the veteran pro picker on the scene, so some hot banjo solos are expected of me. I'm pretty loose, though I still need to go over the harmony to 'Salt Creek', which is a very Irish-sounding tune by the way, similar to 'The Jolly Beggarman' (The Red Haired Boy).
I don't want to have to think about what I'm playing when I'm "in the moment", which is why I drill hard and long at home.... Don't practice at gigs - or be working stuff out from scratch, just play and have fun.
For Irish and Celtic tunes, they have to be perfected and memorized before you get on stage (or play sessions). It's a different ballgame. With bluegrass, you can improvise a lot more with tunes, twisting and doing horrible things to them (LOL), but not with the chord changes, which are fairly standard and repetitive. In Irish & Celtic music, you have to stick to the melody, or it becomes a hybrid style, possibly closer to jazz or bluegrass if you plan it that way....
In Ireland, nobody calls it "Celtic" music, just so you know.... LMAO
Happy pickin,
Tom Hanway
Please visit me on MySpace for Amazon, iTunes and Mel Bay stores.
Please see my homepage for digitized releases via Universal.
Nobody has all the tunes, but everybody has a piece of the tradition.
Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy. - W. B. Yeats
Edited by - Tom Hanway on 11/08/2009 04:20:33
MTBanjo - Posted - 11/09/2009: 06:32:28
Good songs! I need to work out a new version of Clinch Mt. People really seem to love it, so we've been playing it whenever we play out, so I need something new to spice it up.
That's a good point, having everything worked out before a gig. Our "gigs" are not even paying yet, so I don't worry too much about it...but it's nice to be able to more or less be on autopilot when you're up in front of people, instead of having to make it up, I agree. Only so much time to get things all worked out for so many songs though!
Yeah, I'm not to the point where I can just "wing it" on the more melody-based tunes. Bluegrass songs w/ lyrics are one thing, but I'm not to where I can just "improvise" with a fiddle tune. So that's not an issue for me. I either know the song or I don't. I got the rest of Nyth Y Gog down last week & over the weekend. Not quite up to speed yet but it's at a not-so-painfully-slow speed without mistakes now.
Zach
AllanJ - Posted - 11/10/2009: 06:06:46
What an interesting thread. I'm pretty much a beginner playing Irish* tunes on 5-string and the message that keeps comming through is 'know the tunes' . Not just know how to play them but really know them inside out - it's hard work and there are no shortcuts!
I'm lucky that I have really good sessions close by with players who are welcoming towards beginners as well as fine musicians. I feel I'm getting a free (aside for the odd pint) music lesson each time I go. We don't have many 5-string players locally (well none) so Tom's book has been a great help. I started out learing a few tunes 'off the page' but more recently I've been using the tabbed tunes as a starting point - in fact the CD now gets more use than the book!
Incidentally Zach, my great aunt emigrated to Montana from Clydach, south Wales during the 1920 - unfortunately, as a nation, we don't have a lot of surnames which makes tracing relatives a bit difficult!
Cheers
Allan
*Actually a lot of what we play is English in origin rather than Irish or celtic but it's all basically fiddle tunes.
MTBanjo - Posted - 11/10/2009: 06:18:44
Hey Allan, good to hear from you! I wish I had more opportunities to play this stuff here. Mostly bluegrass and old time stuff around here, but I can't really complain about that.
Sounds like you've got a good thing going.
Interesting! I've lived here about 6 years. It's a nice place. I grew up in NY. Love it, love the east, miss the east...but the lifestyle, pace of life etc. out here is just something I can't imagine trading for what I remember of the east anymore...
Zach
Tom Hanway - Posted - 11/10/2009: 19:03:34
Wow, it's gratifying to hear that the book and CD are working, somehow, some way.
I've got another book on the way, with (voluntary) chords this time, haha, and Iain Mac Lachlan, who is on BHO, here, just had his Celtic Tune Encyclopedia released by Mel Bay. It's cool stuff, from Scotland no less!
I've known Iain for years, and I visit him and stay at his house, with his lovely wife, and we pick.... He was doing this stuff before people even knew that it was a thing to do!
We've also played on stage together and done a Celtic workshop ... and over the years just picked one another's brains and helped each other make sense of all this dance and listening music. A lot of it is dance music at the end of the day!
So, I know Iain's playing and tabs well, and they're really cool - REALLY cool - getting to the essence of the tunes, no frills or weirdness.
Iain is especially great for "economy of motion" and not being capo dependent, because he has to play all sorts of tunes in various keys with fiddlers and there's just no time to be fussing about with capos and old-time tunings! It has to happen in the moment, no messing around!
He lives in Edinburgh and plays in a Scottish Ceilidh band, so you can't really get more dance-music oriented than Iain (with the Thunderdog Ceilidh Band). It'serious stuff and fun too. And you have to be in shape to dance to it ... or it will get you in shape!
I'm sure we'll be talking about this more on another thread, but I just wanted to give you a little teaser. I'll poke Iain. He is a true gentleman of the banjo, and I'm proud to call him a friend.
The nuts and bolts of it is that Iain and I think and play very much alike, to the extent that we can have a laugh when I'm doing it "his way" ... and he's doing it "my way".
It's a fingerstyle Celtic approach on a five-string banjo, all about getting the melody and not being overly concerned with chords, off notes, or weird technical stuff - just playing for dancers and listeners who want the bare bones melody, for starters!
We're just playing the tunes ... that's really what it's about at the end of the day.
One tune at a time, and one after another! And that's the craic on that.
Happy pickin,
Tom Hanway
Please visit me on MySpace for Amazon, iTunes and Mel Bay stores.
Please see my homepage for digitized releases via Universal.
Nobody has all the tunes, but everybody has a piece of the tradition.
Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy. - W. B. Yeats
Edited by - Tom Hanway on 11/11/2009 17:28:26
imac50 - Posted - 11/11/2009: 07:36:25
I've been following this thread with interest but didn't want to appear to hijack it. However, now that Tom has kindly mentioned my new book, Celtic Tune Encyclopedia for 5-String Banjo, melbay.com/product.asp?ProductID=21275, I feel that I can jump in. As Tom kindly says, we have similarities in our approach to the music even though we were both working away on different sides of the Atlantic.
Here in Scotland you will hear all sorts of different harmonies to the tunes. There are jazz influences aplenty, salsa, reggae, east european. There are bands experimenting all the time. Some of it is to my taste and some of it is not but I have no problem with people trying things. It has been suggested that our band has a very American feel to it. I can't imagine why!
My book doesn't have chords either. With my band I rarely if ever play chords. Myself and the fiddle player play the tunes and it's up to the bass player and keyboard player to harmonise it. I have to admit that I don't know what they are doing but I know that it feels right. Tom's book is a great resource and a great way to get involved in the music. Hopefully my book can be a companion volume with other tunes to increase your repertoire.
Iain
iainmaclachlan.com
Tom Hanway - Posted - 11/11/2009: 17:21:34
Iain, e'er the plainspoken Scottish gentleman, okay, of colorful highlander ancestry, adds modestly:
"My book doesn't have chords either. With my band I rarely if ever play chords. Myself and the fiddle player play the tunes and it's up to the bass player and keyboard player to harmonise it. I have to admit that I don't know what they are doing but I know that it feels right. Tom's book is a great resource and a great way to get involved in the music. Hopefully my book can be a companion volume with other tunes to increase your repertoire."
Iain Mac Lachlan and Tom Hanway with their Stelling
SwallowTail Deluxe banjo at the Tally-Ho, Longford, Ireland
Happy pickin,
Tom Hanway
Please visit me on MySpace for Amazon, iTunes and Mel Bay stores.
Please see my homepage for digitized releases via Universal.
Nobody has all the tunes, but everybody has a piece of the tradition.
Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy. - W. B. Yeats
Edited by - Tom Hanway on 11/11/2009 17:40:40
MTBanjo - Posted - 11/12/2009: 15:36:57
Very exciting. Thanks guys.
Zach
Tom Hanway - Posted - 11/12/2009: 18:50:01
Zach, beyond the books, tabs, trifles and camaraderie, the way to learn applicable chords is to understand the modes and how each is harmonized. It's not quite the same as the Western classical major-minor approach, with the natural, melodic and harmonic minor scales (modes).
It's an older modal family (of scales), and the basic Celtic modes comprise the Major (Ionian), Mixolydian (flatted 7th), Dorian (flatted 3rd and 7th), and Natural Minor (Aeolian - flatted 3rd, 6th and 7th). The Phrygian (friggin' mode - haha) adds a flatted 2nd to the Aeolian's flatted 3rd, 6th and 7th, but that's very rare in contemporary music, though you do hear it, and it's more commonplace in Iberian and Mediterranean folk traditions, which obviously border on the Celtic.
It's all based, in the final analysis, on the Major mode, just starting another Celtic mode on one of its scale degrees. You're starting in different places for different modes, but they all can be derived from the Ionian (Major) mode. That's for a theory thread, not here.
If you study these modes, learn how to play them, and build triads on each note of the scale, then you will have your basic chords for each mode, which are then substitutable.
Of course, you can jazz things up more; also, you can leave out a lot of chords and go for diads (two-note chords, or, in classical parlance, an "interval"). And you can do all kinds of droney things and play more-dense or less-dense chords (leaving holes or not leaving holes).
Just because a chord works theoretically doesn't make it Celtic sounding (or commonly used) in a particular Celtic tradition. I'm saying this quickly because I want to go to bed, but that's the précis.
Re-read my long post mentioning Chris Smith's Celtic Back-Up book, which I hyperlinked. It's an intense book, but it's spot on if you want to learn about Celtic chord possibilities.
Learn the Celtic modes and harmonize them and you have the key (possible choices). But first, learn the tunes and you'll learn the modes that way - that is, be able to hear and distinguish them by ear. It won't be some abstract exercise or theoretical goal. You'll just learn to hear them (by doing), then you can map them out (in theoretical terms).
I hope I just made some sense, because I'm hitting the Submit Reply button.... Whoowee baby! Seven notes, that's all, and the tunes usually use only five or six notes of the scale (mode).
Knowing the theory won't necessarily translate into being able to sound "authentic" - a favorite word of critics and pedants. Music is about listening and learning the (particular) style. Now I'm really going to bed.
Happy pickin,
Tom Hanway
Please visit me on MySpace for Amazon, iTunes and Mel Bay stores.
Please see my homepage for digitized releases via Universal.
Nobody has all the tunes, but everybody has a piece of the tradition.
Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy. - W. B. Yeats
Edited by - Tom Hanway on 11/12/2009 19:03:33
MTBanjo - Posted - 11/13/2009: 07:15:27
Thanks again, Tom. I'm going to get some of the recordings listed in your book, and I'll start actually listening when I go watch that group at the bar. I'll check out the Celtic Back-up book, too.
Zach
imac50 - Posted - 11/15/2009: 05:41:48
Zach
One thing you should keep in mind is that in Scots/Irish music there are a lot of minor chords going on. For an example in Devil's Dream, I have a Trischka version harmonising using the A and E7 chords whereas I would use Amajor and Bminor with only a passing reference to the E7 chord at the end.
Iain
iainmaclachlan.com
Edited by - imac50 on 11/15/2009 05:42:54
MTBanjo - Posted - 11/16/2009: 11:44:18
Thanks, I have noticed that. When I found some chords to Far From Home, and Nyth Y Gog, there are definitely a lot of chords, first of all, and plenty of minors. That's one of the reasons I really like it.
Zach
Tom Hanway - Posted - 11/17/2009: 09:26:30
quote:
Originally posted by MTBanjo
Thanks, I have noticed that. When I found some chords to Far From Home, and Nyth Y Gog, there are definitely a lot of chords, first of all, and plenty of minors. That's one of the reasons I really like it.
Zach
Right, the first is a Shetland (Scottish) tune (Far Frae Home), and the second is a very old Welsh tune (aka 'The Cuckoo's Nest' - related to 'Jackie Tar').
Well, as for minor chords, well, it ain't bluegrass, and you know what they say: "There ain't no MINOR chords in bluegrass."
Seriously, that's a crock, a popular myth, pure nonsense. Monroe wrote loads of tunes using minor keys and chords. It's not worth debating. Bluegrass uses minor chords (sometimes).
We are really moving into theory here, but here’s a précis and an exercise.
Basically, the Ionian and Mixolydian modes have a “Major” sound because they have an unaltered third (major) scale degree. The Dorian and Aeolian modes have a “minor” sound because they have a lowered third (minor) scale degree.
I’m writing out the 4 common Celtic modes (going from more “Major” sounding to “Minor” sounding: Ionian, Mixolydian, Dorian and Aeolian, like this:
Ionian:.......1...2...3...4...5...6...7...1
Mixolydian:...1...2...3...4...5...6..b7...1
Dorian:.......1...2..b3...4...5...6..b7...1
Aeolian:......1...2..b3...4...5..b6..b7...1As an exercise, using these scale degree patterns, write out the tone names (notes) for each of the Celtic modes built on these tonic notes, which are common tonal centers in Celtic music: C, G, D, G, A
For example in C Ionian (Major):
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
C D E F G A B
Now the homework begins: Build chords (triads) on every scale degree, using each tone. Start on each tone, then skip a tone, then use the next tone, then skip a tone, then use the next tone.
For example, in C Ionian, the first chord built on the first degree (tonic) of the scale, C, has notes C, E and G – called Cmaj. The next chord starts on the second scale degree (D), then building on every other note (same pattern as before), thus, D, F and A (Dm). And so on. Em – the third chord or III-chord - comprises E, G and B. The V chord in the key of C Ionian (Major) is G, with notes G, B and D. Remember to build each chord triad using every other tone.
Now do this for every scale degree for each mode starting on C, building the ascending chord sequence to accompany the C Ionian, C Mixolydian, C Dorian and C Aeolian scales.
Okay, now remember to go back out and write out the 4 Celtic modes for each of the following tonic notes: C, G, D, G, A
Then go back in and build the chords for each of these. For each chord remember to start on a each scale degree and build triads using every other note, so it’s: 1-3-5, 2-4-6, 3-5-7, 4-6-1, 5-7-2, 6-1-3, 7-2-4.
Each of the four Celtic modes always uses the same step-pattern of tones, regardless of what key you are in.
You can also learn the modes on the neck of the banjo this way, if you’re really ambitious. Personally, I just prefer to play tunes than to practice scales, but this is great practice if you can discipline yourself to do it. Once you know each of the four patterns (Celtic modes), you can learn to play them in any key, anywhere on the neck, and the chords will follow.
Happy pickin,
Tom Hanway
Please visit me on MySpace for Amazon, iTunes and Mel Bay stores.
Please see my homepage for digitized releases via Universal.
Nobody has all the tunes, but everybody has a piece of the tradition.
Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy. - W. B. Yeats
Tom Hanway - Posted - 11/17/2009: 09:28:26
quote:
Originally posted by MTBanjo
Thanks, I have noticed that. When I found some chords to Far From Home, and Nyth Y Gog, there are definitely a lot of chords, first of all, and plenty of minors. That's one of the reasons I really like it.
Zach
Right, the first is a Shetland (Scottish) tune (Far Frae Home), and the second is a very old Welsh tune (aka 'The Cuckoo's Nest' - related to 'Jackie Tar').
Well, as for minor chords, well, it ain't bluegrass, and you know what they say: "There ain't no MINOR chords in bluegrass."
Seriously, that's a crock, a popular myth, pure nonsense. Monroe wrote loads of tunes using minor keys and chords. It's not worth debating. Bluegrass uses minor chords (sometimes).
We are really moving into theory here, but here’s a précis and an exercise.
Basically, the Ionian and Mixolydian modes have a “Major” sound because they have an unaltered third (Major) scale degree. The Dorian and Aeolian modes have a “minor” sound because they have a lowered third (minor) scale degree.
I’m writing out the 4 common Celtic modes, going from more “Major” sounding to “minor” sounding: Ionian, Mixolydian, Dorian and Aeolian, like this:
Ionian:.......1...2...3...4...5...6...7...1
Mixolydian:...1...2...3...4...5...6..b7...1
Dorian:.......1...2..b3...4...5...6..b7...1
Aeolian:......1...2..b3...4...5..b6..b7...1As an exercise, using these scale degree patterns, write out the tone names (notes) for each of the Celtic modes built on these tonic notes, which are common tonal centers (keys) in Celtic music: C, G, D, G, A
For example in C Ionian (Major):
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
C D E F G A B
Now the homework begins: Build chords (triads) on every scale degree, using each tone. Start on each tone, then skip a tone, then use the next tone, then skip a tone, then use the next tone.
For example, in C Ionian, the first chord built on the first degree (tonic) of the scale, C, has notes C, E and G – called Cmaj. The next chord starts on the second scale degree (D), then building on every other note (same pattern as before), thus, D, F and A (Dm). And so on. Em – the third chord or III-chord - comprises E, G and B. The V chord in the key of C Ionian (Major) is G, with notes G, B and D. Remember to build each chord triad using every other tone.
Now do this for every scale degree for each mode starting on C, building the ascending chord sequence to accompany the C Ionian, C Mixolydian, C Dorian and C Aeolian scales.
Okay, now remember to go back out and write out the 4 Celtic modes for each of the following tonic notes - think KEYS and MODES: C, G, D, G, A
Then go back in and build the chords for each of these. For each chord remember to start on each scale degree and build triads using every other note, so it’s: 1-3-5, 2-4-6, 3-5-7, 4-6-1, 5-7-2, 6-1-3, 7-2-4.
Each of the four Celtic modes always uses the same step-pattern of tones, regardless of what key you are in.
You can also learn the modes on the neck of the banjo this way, if you’re really ambitious. Personally, I just prefer to play tunes than to practice scales, but this is great practice if you can discipline yourself to do it. Once you know each of the four patterns (Celtic modes), you can learn to play them in any key, anywhere on the neck, and the chords will follow, well, if you really want to go there....
Happy pickin,
Tom Hanway
Please visit me on MySpace for Amazon, iTunes and Mel Bay stores.
Please see my homepage for digitized releases via Universal.
Nobody has all the tunes, but everybody has a piece of the tradition.
Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy. - W. B. Yeats
Edited by - Tom Hanway on 11/17/2009 17:22:33
MTBanjo - Posted - 11/17/2009: 12:36:59
Ooook that looks like something that could keep me busy for a LONG time.
I'll have to look into the Cuckoo's Nest thing, since there are two of them in your book, which obviously are not the same song. The Nyth y Gog one is definitely minor-y, and I could see how it's related to Jackie Tar (another I really like playing).
I do prefer tunes over scales, but I don't mind scales, and I've been using them as a warm up exercise, and I have noticed that my ear is getting a little better because of it. A bit easier for me to pick out melody notes by ear, which has been a really weak spot for me.
Zach
wildboar - Posted - 11/17/2009: 13:13:22
Tom, you must REALLY love this stuff, as your posts are often long and detailed. As I read them, I often think you must struggle to type fast enough to get all that information out of your brain. Keep it up, it's good stuff.
-dk
Tom Hanway - Posted - 11/17/2009: 17:13:33
quote:
Originally posted by wildboar
Tom, you must REALLY love this stuff, as your posts are often long and detailed. As I read them, I often think you must struggle to type fast enough to get all that information out of your brain. Keep it up, it's good stuff.
-dk
In a nutshell, every mode uses the same seven tones, just in different sequences, starting on different tones (scales degrees) relative to the Major scale. Modes are just more scales based on the 7 tones of the main scale or Major step-pattern of notes. Remember the sequence from "The Sound of Music"?
DO RE MI FA SOL LA TI DO
It all begins with this Major scale, which for Celtic modal thinking we term the Ionian mode (still the Major scale). Scale are modes, modes are scales.
The Major scale has seven modes because it has seven tones. It all begins here. All these modes are called diatonic scales, but they are not identical, though they use the same exact tones. Isn't that neat?
As your starting tone, begin on "DO" as the first tone, then "RE" as the first tone, then "MI" as the first tone, then "FA" as the first tone, then "SOL" as the first tone, then "LA" as the first tone, then "TI" as the first tone. When you get back to "DO" you can stop because you've gone the whole octave and you're back to Ionian mode.
Here's a chart of the seven modes derived from a C Major (Ionian) scale, all seven notes plus the octave. Find these on the banjo and practice them - any way you want, but try them, even if you have to use a flatpick (joke)!
The
four Celtic modes are highlighted in
blue. Note that these are not the only keys to play them in, just the modes derived from C Ionian (Major):
C ~
C Ionian = CDEFGABC - Major soundingD ~
D Dorian = DEFGABCD - Minor soundingE ~ E Phrygian = EFGABCDE - very Minor sounding
F ~ F Lydian= FGABCDEF - Major sounding
G ~
G Mixolydian = GABCDEFG - Major sounding A ~
A Aeolian = ABCDEFGA - Minor soundingB ~ B Locrian = BCDEFGAB - Minor sounding yet leading to C Ionian
Here's the core of it, for Celtic (chord) back-up purposes:
Basically, the Ionian and Mixolydian modes have a “Major” sound because they have an unaltered third (Major) scale degree. The Dorian and Aeolian modes have a “minor” sound because they have a lowered third (minor) scale degree.
I’m writing out the 4 common Celtic modes, going from more “Major” sounding to “minor” sounding: Ionian, Mixolydian, Dorian and Aeolian, like this:
Ionian:.......1...2...3...4...5...6...7...1
Mixolydian:...1...2...3...4...5...6..b7...1
Dorian:.......1...2..b3...4...5...6..b7...1
Aeolian:......1...2..b3...4...5..b6..b7...1As an exercise, using these scale degree patterns, write out the tone names (notes) for each of the Celtic modes built on these tonic notes, which are common tonal centers (keys) in Celtic music: C, G, D, G, A
For example in C Ionian (Major):
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
C D E F G A B
Now the homework begins: Build chords (triads) on every scale degree, using each tone. Start on each tone, then skip a tone, then use the next tone, then skip a tone, then use the next tone.
For example, in C Ionian, the first chord built on the first degree (tonic) of the scale, C, has notes C, E and G – called Cmaj. The next chord starts on the second scale degree (D), then building on every other note (same pattern as before), thus, D, F and A (Dm). And so on. Em – the third chord or III-chord - comprises E, G and B. The V chord in the key of C Ionian (Major) is G, with notes G, B and D. Remember to build each chord triad using every other tone.
Now do this for every scale degree for each mode starting on C, building the ascending chord sequence to accompany the C Ionian, C Mixolydian, C Dorian and C Aeolian scales.
Okay, now remember to go back out and write out the 4 Celtic modes for each of the following tonic notes - think KEYS and MODES: C, G, D, G, A
Then go back in and build the chords for each of these. For each chord remember to start on each scale degree and build triads using every other note, so it’s: 1-3-5, 2-4-6, 3-5-7, 4-6-1, 5-7-2, 6-1-3, 7-2-4.
Each of the four Celtic modes always uses the same step-pattern of tones, every time, regardless of what key you are in. Key is determined by tonal center, or tonic, i.e. the first note of the scale (step-pattern of tones).
You can do this for every key, and they're only 12 notes. It's the same thing, every time, just moved around. Learn it in "C" first. Learn this and you're ready for jazz modes and even weirder scales from around the world!
Happy pickin,
Tom Hanway
Please visit me on MySpace for Amazon, iTunes and Mel Bay stores.
Please see my homepage for digitized releases via Universal.
Nobody has all the tunes, but everybody has a piece of the tradition.
Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy. - W. B. Yeats
Edited by - Tom Hanway on 11/19/2009 09:09:09
Tom Hanway - Posted - 01/07/2010: 13:55:55
I dedicate myself to this work, full-time, for community, and I need to expose a problem about reviewers who hide behind pseudonyms. Some would-be critics resort to mischaracterization and misinformation when they run out of real arguments, arguments that make sense. Another device or decoy is to try to make people take sides, without thinking, appealing to their emotional or cultural biases.
I once had a *reviewer*, who hiding behind a pseudonym, panned my Mel Bay book/CD, not mentioning the CD (68 tunes), the chapters on Exercises and Techniques, A Cross Section of Celtic Tunes (from the Six Celtic Nations), or the Glossary, which is why major libraries around the world (including Cape Breton and Lincoln Center) see fit to put my book on their shelves, Instead my work was attacked through emotionalism and mischaracterization, also apparently because the tunes were too difficult for the reviewer (who generously offered that the book lacked "critical content"). Nice
This "review" may have been intended for the purpose of panning my work with a single-star rating, possibly hurting sales, but it never develved into actual book and CD content, or discussed the 101 tunes in the book. The reviewer is most likely a BHO member who made specific references to my ideas and slang terms in these forums. I see through it and have learned from it, but it underscores a broader vexing problem in dealing with traditional music from different cultures.
Another common misinformative approach to Celtic music, not just on BHO, is to lump all the Celtic music traditions together as one generic "folk music", with universal Western (American) chords, which is about as informative as saying that it's "music made by people" and do it this way (or be a "simpleton").
That would be a misguided, culturally arrogant approach if anyone actually fell for it.
Complete Book of Irish & Celtic 5-String Banjo
Because we can write down chords over melodies, doesn't mean we have to be stuck playing them every time. That just goes against musical creativity and individual expression.
Some people espouse the use and mimicking of rigid chord patterns, also pounding out non-Celtic rhythms instead of actually learning non-American traditional styles or discovering how to improvise from inside an actual Celtic tradition. It's just a cultural blind spot really, at the end of the day.
Traditional bluegrass musicians can always tell when someone is faking bluegrass guitar, banjo, mandolin, dobro or fiddle. Traditional Celtic players (who probably don't call themselves that) also know when people are faking their musical and cultural traditions.
Edited by - Tom Hanway on 01/13/2010 14:37:00
boyratchet - Posted - 01/12/2010: 03:48:30
((Traditional bluegrass musicians can always tell when someone is faking bluegrass guitar, banjo, mandolin, dobro or fiddle. Traditional Celtic players (who probably don't call themselves that) also know when people are faking their musical and cultural traditions.))
In the same vein, I have a cousin who was once a very in demand session player in LA (Bobby Troupe's Get Your Kicks on Route 66, the guitar solo in the Rocky theme and many others), but has since retired. Coming from a jazz background, he never really like rock and roll too much, but he spent a lot of time in the woodshed figuring out how and why it worked so he could play it convincingly. (He was the guitar player on some of Robert Palmer's big hits in the 80s, Simply Irresistible, etc.) I always imagined that he could play anything, but one evening aver dinner he corrected me. "This is a business and there is lots of money at stake. If the producer knows anything about music he knows that if he needs something that sounds like a mariachi band, he hires a mariachi band. If he needs somebody that sounds like a sitar player, he calls the Ali Akbar school, a gets a classically trained sitarist. My niche is jazz, rock and blues. If they need that, they call me. I could fake it of course, but who wants to pay to hear that?" He went on to talk about bluegrass and country because he knew I was into it. He didn't like it in the least, but he said that pros in Nashville know what they are doing and everybody else knows they know otherwise they wouldn't be so damn successful at it.
MTBanjo - Posted - 01/13/2010: 13:57:38
Yep, you live & breathe it, Tom, and certainly anybody with your book has been helped by it. I'd sure like to know who would try to slander you and it...
I think anyone worth teaching can learn from your posts & book, and more or less understands what you're saying.
Tom Hanway - Posted - 01/13/2010: 15:00:00
quote:
Originally posted by MTBanjo
Yep, you live & breathe it, Tom, and certainly anybody with your book has been helped by it. I'd sure like to know who would try to slander you and it...
I think anyone worth teaching can learn from your posts & book, and more or less understands what you're saying.
Zach, I appreciate the support. Attempts at denigrating my work really can't hurt it, or take the books off the library shelves.
Chords are secondary in the Celtic traditions and tunes stand on their own without them. Still, I'm not the chord police and I love chord substitution.
Maybe the proverbial "music police" are those that demand universal chord engravings (standard chord symbols for every tune), attempting to impose rigid frameworks on mercurial tone sequences that slip through whatever attempts to capture them.
Hey, check out the latest tab on the
Eighth of January (Battle of New Orleans) thread,
here.
Edited by - Tom Hanway on 01/13/2010 15:05:33
banjofanatico - Posted - 01/13/2010: 18:02:40
Sounds like you guys don't care much for chords. Keep practicing them, and they will begin to grow on you.
quote:
Originally posted by boyratchet
In the same vein, I have a cousin who was once a very in demand session player in LA (Bobby Troupe's Get Your Kicks on Route 66, the guitar solo in the Rocky theme and many others), but has since retired. Coming from a jazz background, he never really like rock and roll too much, but he spent a lot of time in the woodshed figuring out how and why it worked so he could play it convincingly. (He was the guitar player on some of Robert Palmer's big hits in the 80s, Simply Irresistible, etc.) I always imagined that he could play anything, but one evening aver dinner he corrected me. "This is a business and there is lots of money at stake. If the producer knows anything about music he knows that if he needs something that sounds like a mariachi band, he hires a mariachi band. If he needs somebody that sounds like a sitar player, he calls the Ali Akbar school, a gets a classically trained sitarist. My niche is jazz, rock and blues. If they need that, they call me. I could fake it of course, but who wants to pay to hear that?" He went on to talk about bluegrass and country because he knew I was into it. He didn't like it in the least, but he said that pros in Nashville know what they are doing and everybody else knows they know otherwise they wouldn't be so damn successful at it.
I was just listeing recently to Bobby Troup's "Back Home In Indiana" . That is cool music. I know what you mean by the country music. I'm into it too - not the stuff they call country music today - but the older real kind - like this :
youtube.com/watch?v=BmwniYyWKdIDavid
boyratchet - Posted - 01/14/2010: 04:57:54
quote:
Originally posted by banjofanatico
Sounds like you guys don't care much for chords. Keep practicing them, and they will begin to grow on you.
When I was living in Morocco, I took a real liking to North African/Middle Easter music. I didn't know what was going on, but I knew it was different from the music I grew up with. One of the things I came to discover is that in addition to its rhythmic complexity, the music is mostly monophonic.
Over the years I began to realize that I didn't have much of a passion for playing Scruggs style banjo, so I started exploring melodic and single string techniques, which of course leads you easily into other genres of music. I started to figure out bits and pieces from North African/Middle Eastern musics. I began wondering if there might be a meeting point between the old time melodies I love so much, and the rhythmically rich melodic variations of the NA/ME musics. Traditional Irish music seemed like the obvious place to start, primarily because it is monophonic at its roots. This in turn has led me to other continental traditions (lots of flutes and drums). I am slowly making my way east, excited to see what I will find next. As for incorporating it into my playing, that will be a life long endeavor.
PS I am no way selling my point of view, but just sharing the fact that it is the monophonic quality of the music that intrigues me, and as such I tend to listen to recordings that maintain/emphasize that. I also strum along on my guitar with lots of Pogues songs as well.
quote:
Originally posted by banjofanatico
I was just listeing recently to Bobby Troup's "Back Home In Indiana" . That is cool music. I know what you mean by the country music. I'm into it too - not the stuff they call country music today - but the older real kind - like this :
youtube.com/watch?v=BmwniYyWKdI
David
The Charlie Walker makes me think back to late night drives across Texas, returning home from livestock shows. My mom would turn on the AM and sing along as my brother and I would nod off.
Thanks for the link.
The guy playing guitar here is my cousin, much younger than I am now.
Pop music certainly was different back in the day.
youtube.com/watch?v=kLUYf6cekMA
desdemonafinch - Posted - 01/14/2010: 08:59:26
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Hanway
I think anyone worth teaching can learn from your posts & book, and more or less understands what you're saying.
Zach, I appreciate the support. Attempts at denigrating my work really can't hurt it, or take the books off the library shelves.
Chords are secondary in the Celtic traditions and tunes stand on their own without them. Still, I'm not the chord police and I love chord substitution.
Maybe the proverbial "music police" are those that demand universal chord engravings (standard chord symbols for every tune), attempting to impose rigid frameworks on mercurial tone sequences that slip through whatever attempts to capture them.
Hey, check out the latest tab on the
Eighth of January (Battle of New Orleans) thread,
here.
[/quote]
The opposite of appreciation is not denigration. It's indifference. If they waste the time of day denigrating you, you must be hitting a nerve with them. That's what happens when you've "dared" to take on tradition. Celtic tunes are so cool to begin with. So, it's great that you've transcribed them for 5-string Scruggs banjo style. I personally hate playing anything except a mando with a flat pick.
There's no such thing as bad PR, except no PR. I kind of want to buy this book now to see how "bad" it is for myself. :)
Tom Hanway - Posted - 01/14/2010: 09:50:50
quote:
Originally posted by desdemonafinch
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Hanway
I think anyone worth teaching can learn from your posts & book, and more or less understands what you're saying.
Zach, I appreciate the support. Attempts at denigrating my work really can't hurt it, or take the books off the library shelves.
Chords are secondary in the Celtic traditions and tunes stand on their own without them. Still, I'm not the chord police and I love chord substitution.
Maybe the proverbial "music police" or the "folk police" (haha) are those that expect/demand universal chord engravings, i.e. standard chord symbols for every tune, attempting to impose rigid frameworks on mercurial tone sequences that slip through whatever attempts to capture them.
Hey, check out the latest tab on the Eighth of January (Battle of New Orleans) thread, here.
quote:
The opposite of appreciation is not denigration. It's indifference. If they waste the time of day denigrating you, you must be hitting a nerve with them. That's what happens when you've "dared" to take on tradition. Celtic tunes are so cool to begin with. So, it's great that you've transcribed them for 5-string Scruggs banjo style. I personally hate playing anything except a mando with a flat pick.
There's no such thing as bad PR, except no PR. I kind of want to buy this book now to see how "bad" it is for myself. :)
First, you're very welcome to the Banjo Hangout! Thank you for writing. May I ask, how shall we address you since you haven’t signed your name?
People who haven't really lived outside of their native countries are more prone to stereotyping and mischaracterizing other peoples and their music, thinking them "simpletons" and the like. But who is the "simpleton" really? Living abroad and migrating back and forth, I cringe when I hear about or witness
the Ugly American.
It's like learning a language and taking it seriously. You would need to learn the actual language. It's sheer folly to insult the people who speak it or to make glib remarks in one's own limited vocabulary. That would be a sign of immaturity in a young person, and in a mature person, banal cultural arrogance.
Using the language analogy, French, Spanish and Portuguese are Romance languages, yet being fluent in French doesn't mean that you are automatically fluent in Spanish and Portuguese, which are much closer to each other than they are to French.
I have to laugh, it's like those Parental Advisory stickers. If it gets under somebody's skin enough so that they have to take meaningless action about it, while drawing attention to it, who really suffers in the end? Some people learn from it, even if others don't.
It's exactly like what George Harrison said about the burnings of the Beatles' albums in the streets across America.
"They had to buy those albums before they burned them." 
Celtic music, at its core, is melody-based, not chord-based, which your typical chord-junky maybe cannot comprehend. It could be any musician's loss for losing the tunes to "the changes".
Being open and not rigid in one's thinking about various Celtic
musics - not a single style - is the the key to unravelling how to play any of them. Chords are the last place to look, as much as I love playing and substituting them. It's still about tunes.
By the way, I use a 3-finger style, like Earl Scruggs, of course, but it's not Scruggs style
per se, incorporating elements of Scruggs, obviously, and Reno (single-string) and "melodic" style, and also more modern approaches using TIM and TIMI patterns in the picking hand (associated with Noam Pikelny and Chris Pandolfi).
A lot of Earl's up-the-neck-back-up licks, by the way, work out of chord positions. I think it's a good idea to learn how to play Scruggs style and play with others, and learn the chords in order to have facility with playing banjo in an ensemble setting, before delving into Celtic music using fingerpicks, now being a melody player. Knowing the melody will tell you if someone is hitting chords that don't work.
Mine is, paradoxically, both a non-traditional and a traditional approach to 5-string banjo, played in traditional G tuning, yes, but going way outside of what strictly traditional bluegrass players would be comfortable with. So folks know, I get my ideas and tunes from traditional pipers, singers, concertina, whistle and flute players, accordionists and fiddlers.
Thanks for the insight. I appreciate that, Des!
Edited by - Tom Hanway on 01/14/2010 18:19:20
banjofanatico - Posted - 01/21/2010: 20:29:42
quote:
Originally posted by boyratchet
[quote]
The Charlie Walker makes me think back to late night drives across Texas, returning home from livestock shows. My mom would turn on the AM and sing along as my brother and I would nod off. Thanks for the link.
The guy playing guitar here is my cousin, much younger than I am now.
Pop music certainly was different back in the day.
youtube.com/watch?v=kLUYf6cekMA
Wow, that guy (Bobby Troup) really knows how to play the piano. Great rendition of that tune, Route 66. Your cousin was providing stellar guitar back-up. Reminds me of Barney Kessel. Didn't realize Julie London had a tv series. Hope they put it out on video. A great singer and also great album covers, if you catch my drift.
youtube.com/watch?v=htNqf-vp0-...&index=11David
Tom Hanway - Posted - 01/22/2010: 03:17:33
quote:
Originally posted by MTBanjo
Ooook that looks like something that could keep me busy for a LONG time.
I'll have to look into the Cuckoo's Nest thing, since there are two of them in your book, which obviously are not the same song. The Nyth y Gog one is definitely minor-y, and I could see how it's related to Jackie Tar (another I really like playing).
I do prefer tunes over scales, but I don't mind scales, and I've been using them as a warm up exercise, and I have noticed that my ear is getting a little better because of it. A bit easier for me to pick out melody notes by ear, which has been a really weak spot for me.
Zach, before we get back on topic, with One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest revisited, remember what Ken Kesey's main protagonist McMurphy replied, "A little [t]ab'll do ya."
Okay, there will be no Celtic tab engraving here for 'Route 66', as much as I love that old Irish ditty. I hope serious students with a sense of humor take a look at this link before posting an off-topic tune or losing the plot altogether - it's too funny:
theonion.com/content/opinion/o..._reasonedI was experimenting with an exceedingly rare tuning at one stage, finding untried Celtic and jazz tunes with it, and it was a real eye-opener, because it makes playing some melodies pure child's play. (It also works for slide, blues and jazz chords - yes blues and jazz!)
The Welsh Cuckoo's Nest is also easy in standard G tuning, the way I have tabbed it in
Complete Book of Irish & Celtic 5-String Banjo.
I first heard and learned
Nyth Y Gôg and other Welsh tunes through the work of harper
Robert Huw Bowen. Interestingly, some Welsh Triple Harp tunes are played with no bounce at all - not to be confused with jazz tunes that swing from the rafters.
If you play this Welsh 'Cuckoo's Nest' slowly, it works as a seasonal Celtic tune. You will see two sets of chords here (substitutions). If you play the substitutions, play them all together because they work as chord sequences. However, the substitutions will sometimes clash with the chords written below them and other substitutions, which are always possible. Think melody and hear chords once you have that down.
It's really easy in
Celtic E Modal tuning and I have put in some obvious chords as well as some fun substitutions, which give it extra lift! You can play this fine melody while hanging out by your "seasonal shrub" or standing underneath the mistletoe!
This is the real stuff:
Celtic Music from the Old World – I hope you enjoy it as much as I do. A characteristic trait and playing technique of the Triple Harp is to play
unisons, which are gotten by playing the
same note on both the outside rows using the two hands in rapid succession.
It’s not the same as playing harmony, diads or double-stops, but the same note fired twice in a row, with a whole cascade of notes being played this way. It's not 'Route 66' (off-topic). Notice the many chord substititutions, and these are just the beginning, so better to focus on the melody. You're not playing chords anyway.
Of the
Six Celtic Nations, Wales alone – not Ireland – has an unbroken tradition of harping, going back to the ancients. The Welsh have always revered the harp and there have always been folk and professional harpists in Wales. One innovation in the Welsh harping tradition was the rise of the Triple Harp (invented on the continent, probably in Italy) as the Welsh national instrument during the 18th century. It appeared in England in the early 17th century and was quickly adopted by Welsh harpers living in London, so much so, that by the 18th century the Triple Harp was known as the Welsh harp.
Despite encroachment of the pedal harp and classical music into the Welsh tradition, the Welsh Triple Harp has survived as a distinctly Celtic instrument.
Welsh harpists make interesting use of
variation (usually preplanned) in the performance of tunes. The Triple Harp has about a five octave range, with three rows of strings, the two outer tuned in unisons to the diatonic (major) scale, and the third row tuned to the accidentals, making the instrument fully chromatic. Neat stuff.
Charles Evans was the first harper of renown, being appointed harper to the court in 1660, where his official title was ‘
His Majesty's harper for the Italian harp’.
Nansi Richards Jones (1888-1979), of Penybontfawr, Oswestry, was known as the “
Queen of the Harp”. She learned from from Gypsy harpists in the Bala area and kept the instrument and traditional playing style alive, passing on her considerable knowledge to
Robin Huw Bowen, who today is one of the leading exponents of the Welsh harping tradition.
Edited by - Tom Hanway on 01/24/2010 16:53:33
banjofanatico - Posted - 01/23/2010: 20:10:24
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Hanway
People who haven't really lived outside of their native countries are more prone to stereotyping and mischaracterizing other peoples and their music, thinking them "simpletons" and the like. But who is the "simpleton" really? Living abroad and migrating back and forth, I cringe when I hear about or witness the Ugly American.
From reading your posts, you only contribute to it.
Tom Hanway - Posted - 01/24/2010: 07:04:06
Many Welsh Triple Harp tunes sit very nicely on the 5-string banjo, without need of a capo or re-tuning. You would think they were designed for or written on the 5-string. It's a mind-blowing revelation. These tunes are not that complicated. It is easy to overcomplicate them by focusing on nonessentials.
Mel Bay, my publisher, doesn't allow book copyrighted tunes re-printed without their permission, so I cannot just copy and paste the tab from my book for comparison; however, it's the exact same melody as here, in standard G tuning.
As performed on the Welsh Triple Harp, Nyth Y Gôg has no apparent need for piano accompaniment or chord backing from another instrument. It stands on its own.
Like intricate Celtic knots and interlaced designs, the real beauty of Celtic music lies in the ornamented patterns of MELODY. Many stock tunes, hundreds of them if not thousands, have evolved over centuries. Many tunes, which have gone in different directions, can still be traced back to common ancestral sources.
'Hop High Ladies' and 'Did You Ever See the Devil Uncle Joe?' have a common parent in Mrs. MacLeod of Raasay from the The Skye Collection. We know it today as Miss McLeod's Reel. It sounds great with Shetland-style guitar backing, or Cape Breton piano accompaniment, or played by a room full of fiddles and flutes in unison, with no backing at all!
Chords, of course, are always implied in the melodies. But not everyone will hear the same chords within the same melody. For tunes that can be harmonized in various ways, and they are the rule rather than the exception, adhering to a single set of chords would seem to hinder instead of increasing the possibilities for ear development and creative license. Arranging for a band situation or a recording is one thing, but as played live and improvised at sessions, Celtic tunes break free of imposed chord arrangements.
It's that subjectivity and personal sublime experience – playing and making it up in the moment – that makes the living Celtic traditions so special for dedicated players. Those who would dictate chords or demean actual practitioners of Celtic styles for not being bothered with them, speak from outside the tradition.
In Celtic music, the rigid chord policeman is an imposter.
So, all that being said, if you love chords (and I do), find good musicians who like to back tunes, who like to experiment with chords and try different things, and go for it. Some folks can't see the forest for the trees and choose to limit their perceptions and knowledge, and may try to drag others down to their level (of awareness). Don't be one of them. Perhaps it's only a musical or cultural blind spot, but it may become a snooty behavior if taken to extremes.
Beware of the "dog on a bone" attitude or obsession. Try to take that bone away and see what happens, even if the canine seems to be playing, he will still growl and snap, gnawing and chewing even harder on that bone.
Expand in your awareness of tunes and cultures instead of pointlessly trying to make everything fit into a single cultural paradigm or monomaniacal obsession.
Some folks still want the square peg to fit into the round hole and there's no stopping them. Just ignore any single-minded approach.
Edited by - Tom Hanway on 01/25/2010 17:06:33
MTBanjo - Posted - 01/26/2010: 06:36:17
Tom- as always, I really appreciat the time you put into these responses. I actually (mostly) played nyth y gog along with your cd, up to speed last night. A little sloppy, but I've basically got it that fast clean. We've (the band) added it to our playlist, using the chords you posted
I started taking lessons with a guy who now plays mostly fiddle, and started the two Irish sessions that play at bars around here, so he's going to be very helpful.
AllanJ - Posted - 01/28/2010: 01:21:49
Hi,
Nydd Y Gôg is one of my favourite tunes, I first heard it when I was living in Swansea but didn't get around to learning it until I got Tom's book. The third part is really lovely. Sometimes I think the Welsh tunes get a bit overlooked because of the popularity of Irish and Scottish tunes.
I often play it alone as it isn't well known where I play now. I add a few harmony notes on the second repeat to give a bit of variation - like a quick strum of the Em chord at the end of each part or pinching the open high D string with the G on the 3rd bar of the 'B' part. The modal tuning version looks interesting but I try to avoid anything that involves retuning - learning one tuning is hard enough!
Cheers
Allan
(don't forget it's pronounced 'goog' not 'gog'; 'gog' is slang for a person from north Wales and not a bird!)
MTBanjo - Posted - 01/28/2010: 06:30:38
It is a great tune. My teacher, who plays a LOT of Celtic music, had never heard of it before. I've got our fiddle player
playing it off the music Tom posted, but so far the rest of the band is only playing backup. We're doing it
as kind of a mix...one lead each for me and the fiddle, then one last time through it with both of us playing.
Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/25/2010: 20:24:33
How do you like the tuning here? Nobody ever used it before for both Celtic and Blues tunes and I discovered or tripped over it quite accidently.
It soon realized that it's great for slide banjo and for neat modal fingerings. I decided it was too much however to re-think the neck for a lot of music, but it's a great novelty and it just has this peculiar ring. I like it!
I had two threads devoted to it, but too many were biting my ankles about it, and it became too personal. Don't start you! I don't feel like being stalked on BHO. We'll let sleeping "DOGFACE" lie!
Edited by - Tom Hanway on 02/25/2010 20:30:33
Mirek Patek - Posted - 02/26/2010: 01:16:07
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Hanway
How do you like the tuning here? Nobody ever used it before for both Celtic and Blues tunes and I discovered or tripped over it quite accidently.
It soon realized that it's great for slide banjo and for neat modal fingerings. I decided it was too much however to re-think the neck for a lot of music, but it's a great novelty and it just has this peculiar ring. I like it!
I had two threads devoted to it, but too many were biting my ankles about it, and it became too personal. Don't start you! I don't feel like being stalked on BHO. We'll let sleeping "DOGFACE" lie!
First of all, there was lot of valuable information (in addition to many tabs) posted by Tom in these two threads:
banjohangout.org/archive/132229banjohangout.org/archive/133305Mirek
Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/26/2010: 04:47:00
Thank you Mirek! First, haha, folks those two threads (above) were totally weird and experimental, making-it-up-as-you-go kind of stuff, a mad banjo chemist mixing odd-shaped beakers and test tubes of strange stuff to see what would happen.
Now I fear these forays (all documented in tab) were too experimental for the feint of heart, and I found myself wanting to go back to G-tuned banjo - phew, what a relief!
That in itself was a valuable lesson. All who wander are not lost! LOL
My real recorded and published work, e.g., articles about backing Celtic tunes, Mel Bay book/CD, commercial releases via Universal, etc., can be found elsewhere. LOL. Thanks again Mirek for listing my highly experimental threads. My better contributions to 5-string banjo may be found below:
Please see my homepage for Celtic articles, about backing tunes, and digitized releases via Universal.
Please visit me on MySpace for Amazon, iTunes and Mel Bay stores.
When it comes to this stuff, it's a real lifetime study: Nobody has all the tunes, but everybody has a piece of the tradition.
I'm always available to help people with this stuff privately.
Tom
Edited by - Tom Hanway on 02/26/2010 04:49:49
Tom Hanway - Posted - 03/04/2010: 14:33:24
Awesome. I'm here to help you with which tunes to work on to get this style. It's like learning bluegrass in some ways. Keep it tuned in G and be accurate. Speed comes with accuracy. One tune at a time. I'm going to start a whole new way of teaching soon.... All will be revealed.
Don Borchelt - Posted - 03/08/2010: 16:48:10
Tom wrote: "Now I fear these forays (all documented in tab) were too experimental for the feint of heart, and I found myself wanting to go back to G-tuned banjo - phew, what a relief!"
Tom, I never took you to be feint of heart! When did that happen?
Edited by - Don Borchelt on 03/08/2010 18:32:46
Tom Hanway - Posted - 03/09/2010: 14:22:49
It was you to whom I was referring. LOL
claybanjo - Posted - 03/09/2010: 19:13:59
I just thought I'd let you know I ordered your book from B+N. Also I really love that E dorian tuning. I have also been listening to Tony Furtado. He plays some Irish on a 5 string. It sounds even better than on a 4 string.
Thanks, Eric
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