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beezaboy - Posted - 09/06/2009: 07:03:46
Who made it?
Clues please!
Somebody must have a catalog or advertisement ca. 1908 - 1912 for this banjo:
Defined: 1. 17 frets; 2. approx. 11" head; 3. probably open back;
4. 19 1/2" - 21 1/2" scale; 5. four steel strings; 6. tuned CGDA;
7. Market = Mandolinists wishing to play the snappy, cutting rhythm instrument
desired by leaders of dance bands that were prolifigating after 1900 when overlapping musical trends included Ragtime and Dance music.
Excellent responses from another post ("Melody Banjo"):
From Greenmeat:
A number of years ago a group of us recreated there 1912 concert at Carnegie Hall. In this concert their was a string orchestra within a large concert orchestra. I organized the string orchestra which had 19 banjos (originally their were many melody (lead) banjos as well as Tango (tenor) banjos. The string orchestra also had 15 mandolins (and Mandolas) as well as 11 harp guitars. The original differed a bit. Their are many pictures of "Europe's" groups that accompanied the Castles as well as New York Tango orchestras of that day with banjos all over the floor. (tenor and melody). They were their as 2nd instruments for the Violin and Viola players. I referred to this a while ago in another thread. Eddy
From BrittDLD1:
The 5-string Banjo Family -- c1910:
o The Piccolo Banjo ---
. . . o 13" to 14" scale --- 1/2 the scale of a Regular Banjo
. . . o Tuned an octave above the Regular Banjo --- gCGBD
. . . o 10 to 12 frets to the body --- (22-fret neck capoed at 12th fret)
. . . . . . . . .more w/ extended board
o The Banjeaurine ---
. . . o 19.5 to 21" scale --- 3/4 the scale of a Regular Banjo
. . . o Tuned to cFCEG = Regular Banjo capoed at 5th fret
. . . o 17 frets (22-fret neck capoed at 5th) --- more w/ extended board
o The Regular Banjo ---
. . . o 26" to 28" scale
. . . o Tuned to gCGBD
. . . o 22 frets -- more w/ extended board
o The Bass/Cello Banjo ---
. . . o 32-1/2" to 35" scale --- 1-1/4 the scale of a Regular Banjo
. . . . . . . . .(NOTE: A longneck folk banjo also has a 32-1/2" scale)
. . . o Tuned an octave below Regular --- gCGBD --- using heavier strings
. . . o Head size from 13" dia to 16" dia
. . . o 17 to 22 frets (depending on head size) -- more w/ extended board
The 4-string Banjo Family -- c1910 to 1925:
One thing becomes pretty obvious, at this point:
the EARLY 4-string family was built on the "bones" of the earlier 5-strings.
Each of the main instruments had similar physical sizes, and scale lengths -- but
developed different tunings, and string gauges:
o The Mandolin-Banjo (8-string) or 4-string Melody Banjo = The Piccolo Banjo
. . . o 13" to 14" scale --- 1/2 the scale of a Regular Banjo
. . . o Tuned to same range as violin or mandolin --- GDAE
. . . o 10 to 12 frets to the body --- (22-fret neck capoed at 12th fret)
. . . . . . . . . more w/ extended board
o The Early Tenor = The Banjeaurine
. . . o 19.5 to 21" scale --- 3/4 the scale of a Regular Banjo
. . . o Tuned to CGDA --- same range as a Viola or Mandola
. . . o 17 frets (22-fret neck capoed at 5th fret) --- more w/ extended board
o The JAZZ Tenor (c1925) -- Longer Scale, 19 Frets, higher tension
. . . o 22-1/8" to 23" scale --- (Regular banjo caped at 3rd fret)
. . . o Tuned to CGDA --- same range as a Viola or Mandola
. . . o 19 frets (22-fret neck capoed at 3rd fret) --- more w/ extended board
o The Plectrum Banjo = Regular Banjo
. . . o 26" to 28" scale
. . . o Tuned to CGBD -- same as longs strings of Regular Banjo
. . . o 22 frets -- more w/ extended board
o The Cello Banjo (4-string) = Cello Banjo (5-string)
. . . o 32-1/2" to 35" scale --- 1-1/4 the scale of a Regular Banjo
. . . . . . . . . (NOTE: A longneck folk banjo also has a 32-1/2" scale)
. . . o Tuned an octave below the Tenor --- CGDA
. . . . . . . . . (Same range as Violoncello, or Mandocello -- using heavier strings)
. . . o Head size from 13" dia to 16" dia
. . . o 17 to 22 frets (depending on head size) -- more w/ extended board
Best-
Ed Britt
Beezaboy
rudykizuty - Posted - 09/06/2009: 07:23:17
quote:
Originally posted by beezaboy
Who made it?
Clues please!
Somebody must have a catalog or advertisement ca. 1908 - 1912 for this banjo:
Defined: 1. 17 frets; 2. approx. 11" head; 3. probably open back;
4. 19 1/2" - 21 1/2" scale; 5. four steel strings; 6. tuned CGDA;
7. Market = Mandolinists wishing to play the snappy, cutting rhythm instrument
desired by leaders of dance bands that were prolifigating after 1900 when overlapping musical trends included Ragtime and Dance music.
In the realm of banjo anthropology, this definitely seems to be the missing link. I wish I knew too.
Anthony Herner
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You have to practice even to be lousy -- Jack Benny
Edited by - rudykizuty on 09/06/2009 09:17:14
jbalch - Posted - 09/06/2009: 07:29:14
This doesn't address your question directly...sorry about that. But...it is relevant to the early history of tenor banjos.
Ed describes the 4-string family as: built on the "bones" of the earlier 5-strings.. Could the first tenors have been conversions?
Apparenty there was a time when "conversion" banjo meant ...5-string to 4-string. Here is an interesting Exclesior that I traded on ebaY. The construction of the rim and neck appears to me to be pre-1900. But at some point the neck was shortened to convert to 17-fret tenor. See below:
johnbalchmusic.com
myspace.com/johnbalch
Edited by - jbalch on 09/06/2009 07:30:06
beezaboy - Posted - 09/06/2009: 09:21:33
John: Surely 5 strings were converted to 4 string banjos and you have proof positive that this happened as the 5 string lost popularity and the 4 string gained 1910-1920. But the converter, I think, probably had a model from a manufacturer-maker somewhere who had done some R&D and not the reverse.
Beezaboy
beezaboy - Posted - 09/06/2009: 09:52:59
Anthony:
Finding the creator of the Tenor Banjo has been a challenging affair. I am amazed and astounded at the lack of a definitive history about our instrument.
For example:
Mick Moloney writes: "then around 1915, the tango, or tenor banjo, was invented"
Banjo Man writes: "tenor banjos began to be manufactured in earnest about 1910".
Bellsouthpwp writes: "According to Fairbanks/Vega authority Jim Bollman, that company (Vega) began manufacturing tenor banjos in about 1912..."
Banjolin.co.uk writes: "In 1908, the famous Fairbanks Whyte-Laydie was re-designed by David Day...It would have been around this time that Tenor Banjos first appeared..."
Banjolin.co.uk further writes: "Reported variously as originating with the Tango craze (around 1910) or the Jazz craze, the golden era of the Tenor banjo was definitely in the 1920's..."
Color me Befuddled. But I think we're closing in.
Someone must know!
There must be a period advertisement or magazine article in the possession of a Hangout member that will cast light on this anthopological mystery.
Beezaboy
rudykizuty - Posted - 09/06/2009: 10:11:46
Beez,
I totally understand. You've touched on a point that I have not been able to make up my own mind on as yet. It's almost like a "chicken vs. the egg" equation for me.
I agree that the theory of R&D leading to innovation makes the most sense. What confuses me though is that by 1910, one would think that recorded history would make available the name of the maker responsible for the "invention". But in spite of it being within the recent past (relatively speaking), it still seems to have so much mystery around it that it's almost like asking "who invented the wheel?".
That last part bothers me and then makes me wonder if, just maybe, there was a grass roots type of evolution of the instrument involved, eg. someone does a conversion like John Balch has shared with us, and then somewhere a manufacturer sees a market need without being able to lay claim to the "invention" of same.
A very interesting discussion, for sure.
Anthony Herner
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You have to practice even to be lousy -- Jack Benny
Edited by - rudykizuty on 09/06/2009 10:18:21
beezaboy - Posted - 09/06/2009: 12:52:24
More Grist:
In "That Half-Barbaric Twang" Karen Linn states:
"New styles of social dancing, using the rhythms of ragtime, hit a preak of popularity around 1913-1915; the tango emerged as the most popular dance of 1914. At this same time, banjo companies began to offer another four-string banjo tuned in open fifths like the banjolin, but pitched a fifth lower. Usually called the "tango banjo" when first introduced, it eventually became known as the "tenor banjo".
With footnote that reads in pertinent part:
"...the instrument was sold by some as the "Tenor Banjo" as early as 1915. citing a Vega ad in The Crescendo, v. 7, n. 9, p.1.
If accurate, it was "banjo companies" that offered the Tenor Banjo for sale.
Who (which company) was it that FIRST offered the Tenor Banjo for sale?
Beezaboy
Edited by - beezaboy on 09/06/2009 12:54:59
jbalch - Posted - 09/06/2009: 16:33:08
According to Mugwumps.com, the John Haynes Co. (makers of the Excelsior banjos) stopped production prior to 1900. When I saw that Excelsior on ebaY, I recognized the heel-cut and construction as typical of pre-1900 banjos. I bid on it because of curiosity. I wanted to see if it might be an real example of a very early tenor.
The splice in the neck was the best clue to the banjo's origin and history. It had clearly been re-finished too. The work was very well (professionally?) done. When I owned it, I assumed that the conversion was probably completed in the early 1900s as 4-string banjos gained popularity. Maybe it was a lower cost alternative to buying a new manufactured 4-stringer.
I think the 4-string banjo probably evolved from the marketing efforts of some manufacturer(s) seeking to regain lost market share as mandolin family instruments became more popular. Exactly who created the first one may remain a mystery.
johnbalchmusic.com
myspace.com/johnbalch
beezaboy - Posted - 09/06/2009: 17:36:39
John:
I think your idea for the genesis of the Tenor Banjo is part of the equation. I also think from my meager research that someone(s)...Mandolinists to be sure...wanted inclusion in the playing of the new music for the new century. Peppy ragtime. Toe-tapping dance music. Horns. Their Mandolins couldn't be heard in the band. They had their Mandolin Banjos to pick and strum but the Mandolin Banjos had drawbacks. Four courses of strings made it difficult to tune; ten inch heads produced insufficient volume; and even worse - the Mandolin Banjo sustain (Ed Britt calls it overtones) defeated the crisp tones, snap and pop that was desired from a banjo. Schall's 1907 ad for his Banjorine provides evidence that Mandolinists were seeking a solution to the deficiencies of the Mandolin Banjo. The Banjorine was tuned GDAE to simplify the switch from Mandolin to Banjorine. This tuning is for lead instuments. So, the Banjorine was not the answer (and not the Tenor Banjo) because, I submit, experienced orchestral personnel wanted counterpoint. An instrument tuned five steps below the violin part. A "Tenor Violin" as it were. Call it a Viola Banjo. And SOMEBODY figured out what was needed and invented the Tenor Banjo. I cannot believe it happened by accident or in someone's garage. I think a professional musician developed this instrument. Afterall, the darn thing worked. In fact, it thrived! There were 127 banjo patents 1920-1930 and the only real substantive change to the basic model was to add two frets to make it 19 rather than 17. Seventeen being the usual number of frets on a Mandolin Banjo.
My quest is to learn who that SOMEBODY was and when and how they did it.
An answer from a BHO member would be greatly appreciated! 
Beezaboy
jbalch - Posted - 09/06/2009: 20:57:24
John:
Regarding the marketing hypothesis...I think I heard George Gruhn say something like that in a workshop at the Tennessee Banjo Institute. He was speaking about the potential investment value of banjos. His point was that values have been very unpredictable because, more than some other types of instruments, the banjo has been subject to changing whims of musical tastes. Historically, banjos have come in-and-out of fashion. Production levels and instrument prices have fluctuated accordingly.
To demonstrate his point, George talked about how, at the end of the 1800s, Gibson sucessfully marketed Mandolin family instruments (with reliable steel strings and geared tuners) to university music clubs and orchestras. Mandolins replaced 5-string banjos (which were still mostly gut-strung at the time). The demand for classical banjos plummeted. Makers were left scrambling to survive...many did not.
Those who did... rapidly migrated to producing 4-string banjos (tuned in 5ths ... familiar to mandolinists). The development and popularity of tenor banjos sustained (and grew) the industry for a few decades...until they too fell out of fashion. Then came bluegrass.
Maybe the tenor banjo was the brainchild of one of the builders who survived that transition during the 1900-1920s. Lange, Fairbanks (or Cole), Bacon, Lyon & Healey...?
johnbalchmusic.com
myspace.com/johnbalch
BTuno - Posted - 09/06/2009: 21:58:26
So, picking up from J. Balch, can we identify the earliest documented tenor? Documentation in the form of a real banjo with a reliable serial number. Perhaps the weight-of-evidence from BHO members can help ratchet down on a date. For starters, Gibson started making tenor banjos in 1918. There must be earlier tenor banjo makers.
BT
"Ya gotta get all them tunes in yer head"
John Field - Posted - 09/07/2009: 01:39:49
Interesting topic.....I have a recording of an interview with Fred Van Eps made in 1960. The interviewer was Lew Green. Fred talks about the origin of the tenor banjo and says that the originator was a violinist from Venice Beach, Cal. named Louis Stepner. He got the idea from a job he had tuning the mechanical banjo playing machines that were operated by paper rolls in (I presume) saloons and amusement arcades. Fred states that this was in the 1890's. Stepner found that the mechanical banjos were tuned in fifths, and got the idea that he could rapidly learn such an instrument, as he was used to the fifths tuning on violin. He therefore got the J.B.Schall Company of Chicago to make up a four string banjo tuned in fifths....and that, according to Fred was the first tenor banjo made.
Fred didn't say the date at which this happened,but one might gues sometime between 1900 and 1910. Fred would have been an eyewitness to all banjo matters at the time, so his verbal description certainly has authenticity I would say.
John Field - Posted - 09/07/2009: 01:48:36
Just Googled "Louis Stepner" and there are some relevant threads. The J B Schall Co. first advertised the tenor banjo in 1907. The idea was that mandolin players could easily switch to the new tenor banjo.....
beezaboy - Posted - 09/07/2009: 06:42:50
Ah! We're closing in!! Thank you gentlemen.
Stepner's Banjorine made by Schall and advertised 1907 - See it here:
mugwumps.com/schall_1.gif
It was not THE "Tenor Banjo" because it was 19 frets to the body & 22 overall tuned GDAE (violin and mandolin) and the scale is unknown. Wonderful interview with Van Eps to recall this instrument. This Banjorine is certainly the precursor to the Tenor Banjo and occupies an extremely important phase in its development. It illustrates that Mandolinists were seeking a banjo alternative and the inventor of the Tenor Banjo must have been paying attention.
My reasearch has revealed that generally speaking the Regular Banjo lost popularity 1900 - 1915. The Mandolin gained in popularity 1900 - 1915. Interest in dancing (esp. the tango and foxtrot) skyrocketed 1910 - 1915. Dance bands proliferated. Demand for a banjo rhythm instrument increased commensurate with the dance craze and an observant manufacturer would have seen an opportunity.
Was it Bacon who "invented" the Tenor Banjo?? Ed Britt said the Tenor Banjo was built on the bones of the 5 string. One such 5 string was the Banjeaurine. Bacon built Banjeaurine's. Here is one ca. 1906. Look at it's similarity to the Tenor Bano!!
banjohistory.org/instrument/de...njeaurine
Does Polle have a Bacon catalog ca. 1907-1912 depicting a Tenor Banjo??
Could it be that Fred Bacon, the 5 string virtuoso who toured the country with the Big Trio in 1911-1912, is the innovator and hero to tenor banjoists everywhere?
Stay Tuned!
Beezaboy
beezaboy - Posted - 09/07/2009: 09:19:36
Some little problems with annointing Bacon as the maker of the FIRST Tenor Banjo.
First, Polle's database does not identify the type banjo (5 or 4 string) being catalogued.
For example: the database lists "Bacon Professional FF SN 75. The database does not inform us about what kind of banjo SN 75 is. Here is #75 and it is a Banjeaurine!
bernunzio.com/products/0812185 [Bernunzio says ca. 1910; Flanoue says 1906]
BUT the details are printed...all maple, internal resonator banjeaurine with 10-3/4 inch rim and 17 fret, 19-3/4 inch scale length neck; mahogany peghead overlay; no knot tailpiece.
If it didn't have the fifth string the front view would look like a Tenor Banjo of the period and the specs would be right on target (back view would reveal the unusual internal resonator design).
Second, Ed Britt in another post stated that Bacon did not feature their Tenor Banjos in their catalogs until approximately 1920's.
So, if Bacon or whoever is the "inventor" of the Tenor Banjo wanted to sell their product to eager mandolinists they had to market and advertise them somewhere!
A period musical-type publication from 1907 - 1912 is probably going to be key.
Beezaboy
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 09/07/2009: 11:33:18
Dear John,
My database contains more columns with datas than shown at the web version.
I´ve only displayed general datas - for all banjos! Do remember and/or know, that my goal for my database was at first hand determining the changes in design for banjos manufactored by the Bacon Co. plus the dates for these changes! In order to bring up the best possible tool for dating our beloved B&D´s.
Could I have started from scratch - I would have included all possible detailed infos.
BTW - regarding the earliest Bacon´s - I´m going to search my archive - I have somewhere (hopefully) another database stored - this contains very detailed infos about many Bacon banjos from the pre-Groton years. Till now not interesting for me.
Regarding the SN 75 Banjeaurine - my dating is based on the mentioned database plus infos from our own Mr. Ed Britt.
BTW - it´s somehow my impression, that Vega introduced the "tenor" banjo a little earlier than Bacon - but at that time Bacon did get their banjos from Vega! LOL!
Good luck and hunt - if I find any previously unknown infos regarding this topic - I´ll let you know.
Kindly regards
Polle
beezaboy - Posted - 09/07/2009: 13:38:57
Polle - Thanks, and please let us know if you find something helpful.
Okay. The Library of Congress has The Cadenza volume 1 - 31 (1894-1924) on Microfilm. They charge a $14 per item "processing fee" and $80 per reel of microfilm.
It would be "priceless" to find out who invented the Tenor Banjo but my Mastercard is maxed. I can return my empty soda bottles and raise $100. But which year reel should I buy that will identify the manufacturer of the FIRST Tenor Banjo??
Furthermore, The New York Public Library has The Crescendo vm. 1-9 (1908-1916) in its Performing Arts Research Collection in closed stacks so they are in print periodical format so you'd have to visit the library to study them. I am in Columbus, Georgia.
Beezaboy
BTuno - Posted - 09/07/2009: 15:46:22
I saw it too. Bass Banjo?? Stewart looking.... How many tuning keys, 6 to 8? Maybe should start a new thread on this one, sure is cool!
BT
"Ya gotta get all them tunes in yer head"
diarmaid - Posted - 09/10/2009: 18:18:16
heres the earliest production model tenor banjo i have personally played, its made by epiphone patented in 1917 (apparantly from before they were actually called epiphone). It has a surprisingly good tone for something so light, unfortunatly it only has 17 frets.
heres what it looks like:
banjohangout.org/myhangout/pho...umid=1515
and theres a recording of it here somewhere (cat in the midden)
banjohangout.org/myhangout/mus...?id=14337
i forgot to mention, i desecrated it a wee bit by replacing the friction tuners with those (slightly later) grover 2 tabs, but i felt it was a necessary evil to make it playable!
there were most likely plenty of tenor banjos around before this one
ps i think this is the patent for the banjo like mine which has the samw holes goin through the tonering and a coming out the indide of the pot, it actually has nice sustain especially with new strings
google.com/patents?id=BtdAAAAA...o&f=false
Edited by - diarmaid on 09/10/2009 18:29:45
beezaboy - Posted - 09/10/2009: 19:29:43
Diarmaid - I have a book. "Epiphone: the House of Stathopoulo" by Fisch & Fred.
According to the book the founder, A. Stathopoulo, died in 1915. His sons took over his luthierie business. The first city directory listing for "House of Stathopoulo" was 1917 and the name was actually incorporated in 1923. In 1923, Brother "Epi" became the moving force in the business and "Epiphone" was for his name and "phone"was greek for "sound". In 1923 the firm began to specialize in banjos under the trademarked name "Epiphone". So, if the book is correct your banjo was produced in or after 1923. The famous Recording line of banjos were introduced in in about 1925 or shortly before. Your banjo certainly looks like one of the very first from this company. The 1917 patent date certainly makes it appear that your banjo was made near that date but the Epiphone book says the name "Epiphone" was not introduced until 1923?
Beezaboy
diarmaid - Posted - 09/11/2009: 03:33:35
John, yeah thats confused me as well, i guessed it may have been an early experimental model, though i have nothing but guesswork to back up the theory, that plus the fact the patent for this design was applied for in 1916 by E A Strathopoulo (the same EA Strathpoulo that took out this patent in 1925 for the first design of the epiphone recording banjos) google.com/patents?id=fSREAAAA...o&f=false one of the major problems with written history is that quite often where solid evidence doesnt exsist, guesswork is used to fill the blanks, and over thime these guesses can become accepted as fact, and if its repeated enough times it becomes gospel. I have seen several early banjos with epiphone inlaid in the headstock, that certainly appear to me to be well before pre 1923, but the name on that patent is the closest thing i could say that proves he was at least designing banjos for the company pre 1923.
Edited by - diarmaid on 09/11/2009 03:34:46
beezaboy - Posted - 09/11/2009: 03:53:39
Diarmaid: The rim with the 1917 stamp and the 1916 patent application is really helpful to this inquiry. It shows that banjo makers were thinking 17 fret tenor banjos and planning a foray into the market mid-teens. So the prototypical 17 fret tenor must have been conceived 1907 (Schall's banjorine) and 1916 (Epiphone's patent). I've made an interlibrary loan request for some Crescendo magazines from the period and am waiting to hear from the librarian about the status of my request.
Also, I got a late 70's mugwumps on ebay and there was an ariticle about the evolution of the tenor banjo in there but the author skips right over our inquiry about the very first one and discusses the tenor in the 20's. More evidence that nobody knows!
Somehow, we're going to figure it out here on BHO!
Beezaboy
beezaboy - Posted - 09/16/2009: 16:56:49
Still circling the prize. Been scouring the Music Trade Review (see recent post). Here is 1916 and almost the "Tenor Banjo" (this one 19 frets to rim - 22 overall). Confirms that the dance craze was generating demand for the Tenor Banjo - here called "Tango Banjo".
arcade-museum.com/mtr/MTR-1916...20-55.pdf
The Music Trade Review availability thru Arcade Museum is marvelous!!
Beezaboy
beezaboy - Posted - 09/16/2009: 17:11:23
Music Trade Review report of 1915 American Guild's annual meeting.
See "Classification of Banjos". Motion made and sent to committee
that banjos be given their proper name...including "Tenor Banjo" and
"Cello Banjo"!
arcade-museum.com/mtr/MTR-1915...-8-43.pdf
Beezaboy
beezaboy - Posted - 09/16/2009: 20:05:41
May 1928 interview with banjoist Louis Calabrese. He almost tells us who originated the tenor banjo. But alas, no cigar. Nevertheless, very interesting article that places the origin date at 1909-1910 when Calabrese in 1928 said "Nearly twenty years ago when the tenor banjo first came into existence...". And, Vega pops up again:
arcade-museum.com/mtr/MTR-1928...21-75.pdf
Beezaboy
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 09/16/2009: 20:18:02
quote:
Originally posted by jbalch
This doesn't address your question directly...sorry about that.
But...it is relevant to the early history of tenor banjos.
Ed describes the 4-string family as: built on the "bones" of the
earlier 5-strings.. Could the first tenors have been conversions?...
Hi John --
Absolutely. But it would have been done by simply removing the
5th string from a readily available 5-string banjorine....
I have several examples of 5-strings with the 5-string side of the neck
completely shaved-off, or the "jog" smoothed-out.
This includes a Fairbanks No 0, and a rare MAHOGANY Whyte Laydie
5-string that had the 5th peg pulled, and another peg added to the
peghead -- to turn it into a 5-string plectrum a la Brent Hayes.
I also a very early Fairbanks-plate Tubaphone No3 Flowerpot -- that had
the 5th peg removed, and the jog smoothed-out. It's #25230, and it's so
early that it does not have the "TU-BA-PHONE" stamp.
Best-
Ed Britt
••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••
Bill Rogers - Posted - 09/16/2009: 20:51:35
Notice that the Bruno Tango banjo in the illustration for the article has 21 frets (and a cantilevered fretboard). So I'd call it a plectrum banjo by today's standards. But it also fits the transitional pattern that John and Ed discuss.
Bill
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 09/16/2009: 21:19:09
quote:
Originally posted by beezaboy
... Was it Bacon who "invented" the Tenor Banjo?? Ed Britt said the Tenor Banjo was built on the bones of the 5 string. One such 5 string was the Banjeaurine. Bacon built Banjeaurine's. Here is one ca. 1906. Look at it's similarity to the Tenor Bano!!
banjohistory.org/instrument/de...njeaurine
Ahem... Beeze... I've been trying to point you toward the
OBVIOUS physical similarity of the Banjorine -- to the early
17-fret tenors -- for months. Simply take off the 5th string...
and you can play it like a tenor.
(And I had a Cole openback 17-fret tenor, from approx 1910,
for a few years. Bought it, and my Cole-made banjorine, from
the same individual. They had been "in the family" for many
years...)
Bacon FF Banjorine #75 was completely made (rim and neck) by
Fairbanks-Vega, sometime between 1905 (when the first Bacon
prototypes were made) and approximately 1908.
So... if F-V made Bacon's FF banjorines (because F-V was already
making their OWN banjorines...) why would you attribute the
"invention" to Fred Bacon?
As they say... it's not rocket-science. It's just an obvious "next-step."
The tenor was NOT "invented" -- it simply evolved -- by
modifying existing banjorines. When there was finally enough
of a demand for them -- the major manufacturers, started making
them.
That demand took several years (almost a decade) to reach
critical mass. AFTER the few earliest few 4-string proto-tenors
showed up.
The first few 4-string proto-tenors were probably custom made,
for a few individual totally-wacko musicians... That's the way the
Stringed Instrument Business has ALWAYS worked.
The current *existing* documentation points primarily to:
1. Farris
2. Schall
3. Fairbanks/Vega
It's always possible you will find the "Missing Link" or "The
Northwest Passage" -- and I hope you do... But it will be a
long, time consuming, archival search. And, you'll be following
in the footsteps of the many, before you -- who have scoured
the same terrain...
quote:
Originally posted by beezaboy
Does Polle have a Bacon catalog ca. 1907-1912 depicting a Tenor Banjo?? Could it be that Fred Bacon, the 5 string virtuoso who toured the country with the Big Trio in 1911-1912, is the innovator and hero to tenor banjoists everywhere?
Bacon's "RED" catalog c1906 is easily obtainable from Bernunzio:
bernunzio.com/products/R-B-301as is the 1913-14 Bacon catalog:
bernunzio.com/products/R-B-182and the Vega 1910-12 catalog:
bernunzio.com/products/R-B-108But you'll only see 5-strings, banjorines -- and Mandolin-Banjos, at most.
I've NOT seen the 1912-14 Bruno catalog. Knowing that
Lange supplied many of their instruments... it's worth a look.
bernunzio.com/products/R-M-356Lastly... something I suggested to Tony Thomas, a couple
years ago:
Get thee to some turn-of-the-Century SEARS catalogs.
THAT is where you will find-out what was then-POPULAR
for selling to "The Great Unwashed Masses".
It will help you to date WHEN the tenor became popular.
But it won't give any clues to where the tenor came from.
Best-
Ed Britt
••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 09/16/2009: 21:37:10
quote:
Originally posted by beezaboy
May 1928 interview with banjoist Louis Calabrese. He almost tells us who originated the tenor banjo. But alas, no cigar. Nevertheless, very interesting article that places the origin date at 1909-1910 when Calabrese in 1928 said "Nearly twenty years ago when the tenor banjo first came into existence...". And, Vega pops up again:
Hi Beeze...
Just so you know...
Herb Fandel was originally hired by David Day, in the late-1890s,
to work at the Fairbanks Co. (Day was general Mgr). Fandel became
a close friend to Day.
After the 1904 fire, when Fairbanks was bought by Vega, Day became
VP and General Mgr of Vega -- and brought Herb Fandel with him.
Fandel was supposedly an expert concert mandolinist. And he was
also known to be an early proponent of the Tenor banjo.
in 1922, when Day left Vega, to go to Bacon -- Fandel took over
Day's marketing/sales and product management duties at Vega.
Just adding to your knowledge-base...
Best-
Ed Britt
••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••
beezaboy - Posted - 09/17/2009: 03:13:08
Hi Ed - Oh, yes. I have been astudiously following your bread crumbs. I have begun to better understand the development of the physical Tenor Banjo thanks to you. My inexperience and ignorance has impeded the search for evidence. I am still seeking the definitive "Eureka!" and identify the first manufacterer. But, what if John Balch is right! What a disappointment as we'll be hard pressed to find the Tenor Banjo "Wright Brothers" who constructed the first Tenor Banjo in the garage. In the meantime here is the mother of the Tenor Banjo!!! The search continues! Vega is in the crosshairs
vintagefret.com/pages/12213.html
Beezaboy
Thor - Posted - 09/17/2009: 07:36:21
Fascinating topic.
This is interesting:
google.com/patents?id=cmBCAAAA...o&f=false
...in that it clearly shows a 17 or 18 fret four-stringed instrument (of indeterminate scale).
Patent applied for in 1899, granted in 1902.
Here is a 17 fret instrument with a 16-3/16" scale (1882):
google.com/patents?id=o7dnAAAA...=&f=false
.. (shown with 10 strings, but mentions "The strings of the usual or any suitable number...")
beezaboy - Posted - 09/17/2009: 09:33:57
Thor - Thanks for the patents. I see where you were going. Perhaps, someone actually patented the Tenor Banjo. But that has not surfaced. Your first patent is for a guy who is going to make the neck out of "channel iron" so he can instert the self playing linkage I guess. The second patent with a 16" scale would be about the size of a tenor ukulele...longer than a mandolin banjo at about 13 1/2" way shorter than the 17 fret Tenor Banjo at about 21"
Beezaboy
Thor - Posted - 09/17/2009: 09:57:54
quote:
Originally posted by beezaboy
Thor - Thanks for the patents. I see where you were going. Perhaps, someone actually patented the Tenor Banjo. But that has not surfaced. Your first patent is for a guy who is going to make the neck out of "channel iron" so he can instert the self playing linkage I guess. The second patent with a 16" scale would be about the size of a tenor ukulele...longer than a mandolin banjo at about 13 1/2" way shorter than the 17 fret Tenor Banjo at about 21"
Well I wasn't really looking for a patented a tenor banjo-- but I was interested in the timeline of when "tenor-like" configurations started showing up. Clues might be had from some of the contemporary patents for other banjos, instruments or parts (like tailpieces).
There were several "automatic" banjos around the turn of the century-- I thought it interesting that some were of the 4 string variety, considering that a "regular" banjo seems to have been a 5 string at that time.
Like i said... fascinating topic. 
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 09/17/2009: 12:38:35
Thor --
Thanks for pointing-out both patents. You are correct, in that
they show patented versions of:
1882 -- Basically an 8-string mandolin-banjo. Before Farris.
1902 -- Basically, an automated plectrum banjo.
1882 -- 8-string mandolin-banjo:
I do find it somewhat ludicrous that the "claims" for the scale length,
and the head diameter, were accepted as part of his "invention"...
(That patent examiner was certainly snoozin' on the job...)
But Beeze -- notice the inventor is from Brooklyn!
And his construction also has certain similarities to the Teed banjos of
the 1870s and 1880s -- which were also from Brooklyn...
1902 -- Automated plectrum banjo.
(Technically, an automated Classic 5-string finger-plucked banjo)
But he realized the dirty-little-secret of Classic 5-string players....
That they rarely used the 5th string on any of the difficult stuff. 
(I used to kid Eli Kaufman, by counting out-loud how many
times he thumbed the 5th string, in some pieces...)
The inventor probably gets 90% of the sound and "feel" of Classic
ragtime pieces even without the 5th.
BUT... by default... it then becomes a 4-string plectrum.
However... the inventor probably did that, because it's simply easier to
show -- in the Patent drawings -- how the mechanics work, on a neck
with fewer strings.
Notice that he does NOT "claim" the number of strings, the
scale-length, or the head diameter, as his invention...
In theory, the mechanism, could just as easily be adapted to a
Piccolo banjo, or a Guitar-banjo, or a Bass-banjo.
(And, by the way... A 7-string Guitar-banjo was used in the EARLIEST
banjo patent -- the 1859 Van Hagen patent. It also had FRETS.)
google.com/patents/about?id=96...&dq=25872
Best-
Ed Britt
••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 09/17/2009 13:38:44
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 09/17/2009: 12:55:28
quote:
Originally posted by jbalch
quote:
Originally posted by beezaboy
AND, WILL YOU LOOK AT THIS?!
cgi.ebay.com/1896-Antique-meta...ZViewItem
John: I was just trying to send you a link to that one when I saw your post.
It might have had more than 4 strings. The tailpiece seems to accomodate 5...
I'm not sure. I'd like to see better photos.
Looks like it's been chopped, and grafted -- to make it shorter -- then
the left side of the neck was shaved-off.
Look at the left dot on the 5th fret -- it's right at the very edge of the fingerboard.
A friend has a very ornate "baroque" banjo c1880-'85, with a similar pegbox.
except the pegbox has a carved ladie's head at the top. It also has a carved
heel.
Umm... well... now only 1/2 of the heel is carved...
The neck was shortened, and the pegbox grafted back on, right at
the nut. Then the entire left side of the neck was shaved. Oh yeah...
the fingerboard has been overlaid with a c1920's thick ebony one --
with snowflake inlay...
Was a killer "art" banjo... once...
Best-
Ed Britt
••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 09/17/2009 12:57:25
jbalch - Posted - 09/17/2009: 12:57:47
It seems like I remember seeing a very old 5-string banjo somewhere that had a bridge with a notch cut in the leg on the 5th string side. It was explained that the purpose of the notch was so you could slip the 5th string off the top of the bridge and out of the way for 4-string playing.
Did I dream that? Or has anyone else seen such a configuration?
johnbalchmusic.com
myspace.com/johnbalch
trapdoor2 - Posted - 09/17/2009: 13:10:13
quote:
Originally posted by BrittDLD1
1902 -- Automated plectrum banjo.
(Technically, an automated Classic 5-string finger-plucked banjo)
But he realized the dirty-little-secret of Classic 5-string players....
That they rarely used the 5th string on any of the difficult stuff.
(I used to kid Eli Kaufman, by counting out-loud how many
times he thumbed the 5th string, in some pieces...)
I have often wondered about that...but the more I play that stuff, the more I realize that they were very concerned about both notes that ring longer than their written value (hard to damp that 5th string) and accenting/masking the "characteristic" banjo sound. Eli would probabaly toss me out of the ABF rallies 'cause I'm liable to actually fret that 5th string...
===Marc
"If banjos needed tone rings, S.S. Stewart would have made them that way."
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 09/17/2009: 13:24:35
quote:
Originally posted by jbalch
It seems like I remember seeing a very old 5-string banjo somewhere that had a bridge with a notch cut in the leg on the 5th string side. It was explained that the purpose of the notch was so you could slip the 5th string off the top of the bridge and out of the way for 4-string playing.
Did I dream that? Or has anyone else seen such a configuration?
John --
You caught me...
I just edited that section out of my description of the Van Hagen
Banjo.
I could have sworn that was one of the "claims". But when I went
and got the patent -- I was mistaken.
But... like you... I've also SEEN that side-notch configuration somewhere.
(And now it will drive me nuts, trying to remember where...)
Probably in one of the books, or exhibits...
Best-
Ed Britt
••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 09/17/2009 13:39:10
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 09/17/2009: 21:14:20
Hi Beeze --
Here's a couple nuggets of info for you....
I just ran across them, in my email files -- whilst looking for something else...
The birth of the Tenor banjo.
Uf Jafors emailed me (5/7/07) a synopsis of some key earlier postings,
which were on the Banjo Collector list (Yahoo Group) about the birth of the
Tenor banjo.
You might want to join that group, and go back into the archives.
(Although much of it still appeared to be just speculation..)
As part of a reply to Ulf's email -- another friend/banjo researcher, Juel Ulven
-- said the following, concerning the radio interview in which Van Eps mentions
Louis Stepner:
___________________________________________________________________
... Van Eps also says that the machine banjos were tuned in fifths but the
automatic banjo folks claim they were tuned C - G - B - D, but they did seem
to be 4 string necks....
... According to the decedents of the "Encore Automatic Banjo" folks, the banjos
for both the "Encore" machines (One made in NY by American Automatic Banjo
Company and one in Boston by New England Automatic Banjo Company) were
custom made by J. F. Luscomb Co. in Boston. It was sort of a plectrum like banjo
tuned C, G, B, and D. ... the AB folks say the early (1896/97) electric AB machines
didn't work very well and very few were sold...
___________________________________________________________________
Note that Vega bought Luscomb, around 1898 -- so Vega might have been involved
in making some of the necks for later machines ... (Vega also made custom 5-string
plectrum banjos for Vaudeville star, Brent Hayes, sometime around 1908-10.)
. . . . 
Encore Automatic Banjo c1897-1900 -- with 4-string (plectrum length) neck
Finally...
Here is an email, from Iain Newton (NZ) to the Yahoo Collectors Group --
which Ulf included in his email synopsis (edited for typos):
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 10:03:07 +1200
From: "Iain Newton\(Horace\)" <>
Subject: re tenor banjo origins
I came across this item in a publication called "The Ludwig Banjoist" Fall 1929 edition.
Quote...
THE EARLY TENOR BANJO by CHARLES McNEIL
It's a far cry from SS Stewart's banjourine (a short neck 5 string banjo) of 1885 to splendid modern instruments like the Ludwig Ace, yet these marvelous new models can trace their ancestry back to the little banjourine.
In about the year 1900 I heard an old time mandolinist play a banjourine tuned in fifths, CGDA (reading from the lowest pitched strings to the highest). He had eliminated the fifth string as being unnecessary.
I believe that the first manufacturer to make this so called Cello banjo was Schall of Chicago. I placed an order with Mr Schall for a 21 inch scale "cello" banjo but never recieved it. Mr Schall died while in the balcony of the Olympic theater, Chicago, where his banjos were being played by a vaudeville team.
The new four string banjos tuned in fifths became very popular, and as other manufacturers began to make them, they became known as tenor banjos.
I bought my first tenor banjo about 23 years ago. I practiced diligently about four hours a day for six months, and went into the vaudeville on the Orpheum circuit. I continued as a vaudeville performer for six years.
Vic King, of Los Angeles, playing chords and melody on his tenor banjo was the first banjoist I ever heard in a dance combination. Right then and there I decided that the banjo had found a legitimate place in the orchestra. It gave new life and pop to the orchestras rhythm.
During the years which followed, I had the good chance to watch the development of the tenor banjo while playing in some of Americas greatest dance orchestras.
End Quote.
So perhaps throws some more light,
Cheers
Iain Newton
Great Barrier Island
New Zealand
___________________________________________________________________
Charles McNeil wrote one of the most popular manuals for the tenor.
Hope all that helps...
Best-
Ed Britt
••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 09/17/2009 21:26:11
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 09/17/2009: 21:55:06
Some very interesting info on Vic King, can be found on this site:
"The Big Bands Database Plus"
. . . nfo.net/
Under the heading: [ Art Hickman Orch ]
. . . nfo.net/usa/h5.html
Here is a photo of Vic King with Hickman's Band -- holding his
tenor banjo like a violin.
Note the other banjoist appears to be holding a 5-string banjo --
and is holding-up his plectrum (flatpick) in his right hand.
(Can't see the 5th peg -- so it maybe removed.):
And Vic with Hickman's Trio. The banjo is a Vega:
Best-
Ed Britt
••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 09/17/2009 22:04:22
Thor - Posted - 09/18/2009: 04:02:16
quote:
1882 -- 8-string mandolin-banjo:
I do find it somewhat ludicrous that the "claims" for the scale length,
and the head diameter, were accepted as part of his "invention"...
(That patent examiner was certainly snoozin' on the job...)
Ed, although the patent says: "The strings of the usual or any suitable number in duplicate..." the 1882 patent clearly shows a 10 string banjo... not a mandolin-banjo exactly. Presumably, since the 5-string was still the norm(?). He explains the doubling of the strings as a way to "improve the tone" for the shorter scale- but notes that the doubling could be optional. No idea about the tuning on the 10 string, but I'm guessing it didn't resemble an american tiple. 
And yes, it seems like the scale length thing was the main part of the patent in the inventor's eyes.. he claims that up to that point, banjos couldn't be tuned to play in unison with violins &c. Note the scale length of the Bradbury "invention" being in between piccolo/mandolin-banjo and banjeaurine (does 1882 predate those?), and 17 frets to the body.
quote:
1902 -- Automated plectrum banjo.
(Technically, an automated Classic 5-string finger-plucked banjo)
But he realized the dirty-little-secret of Classic 5-string players....
That they rarely used the 5th string on any of the difficult stuff.
...
Yep. Not to mention that 4 strings simplifies the plucking mechanism as well as the paper rolls- though I did see a patent for a 5-string version as well.quote:
It seems like I remember seeing a very old 5-string banjo somewhere that had a bridge with a notch cut in the leg on the 5th string side. It was explained that the purpose of the notch was so you could slip the 5th string off the top of the bridge and out of the way for 4-string playing.
Did I dream that? Or has anyone else seen such a configuration?
I saw that on a "guitar-banjo" patent. It was a 7 string bridge with the side notch for playing the instrument as a guitar (1865):
google.com/patents?id=DT0AAAAA...=&f=false
p.s: I apologize if this stuff muddies the waters of the tenor discussion.
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 09/18/2009: 07:48:30
quote:
Originally posted by Thor
... I saw that on a "guitar-banjo" patent. It was a 7 string bridge with the
side notch for playing the instrument as a guitar (1865):
google.com/patents?id=DT0AAAAA...=&f=false
p.s: I apologize if this stuff muddies the waters of the tenor discussion.[/size=2]
Thank you, Thor! Now I can stop obsessing about THAT.
I knew it was early, and I knew I wasn't completely bonkers.... Yet, anyway.
I don't think anything you've discussed "muddies the waters"...
We can't study the evolution and development of any particular 'archetype'
without understanding where its "DNA" came from -- and which evolutionary
lines ended in dead-ends.
While Beeze is specifically looking for the FIRST 'Tenor Sapien' of the Tenor World --
we are, nonetheless, investigating "hybridized" banjos. And, if the guitar-banjo
was one of the earliest of those hybridized banjos -- then we should learn what
we can from them.
Example...
Irish Jigs are difficult to play, in clawhammer-style on the 5-string banjo.
(Yes, Ken Perlman does it... and I CAN do it, too... now...)
When I was in a folk band, back in the mid-'70s -- I used my 5-string to flatpick
Jigs. I stuck a wedge of eraser under the 5th string, at the pip, to mute it.
If I had known THEN, that all I had to do was to saw a small notch into the
side of my bridge -- it would have been MUCH easier.
Even though the early Minstrels played jigs, hornpipes, slip-jigs, waltzes,
schottisches, etc., on 5-string -- many people have found the "odd" time
signatures difficult to clawhammer.
During the 1920's the tenor started to become the instrument of choice for
Irish traditional tunes -- because (surprise!) one could use fiddle/mandolin
fingerings.
An Albany, NY danceband player is credited with recording the first Irish tunes
on tenor banjo, in the '20s. (Can't remember his name, right now.) There was
also a fellow here in Boston, who was an "early adopter" of the tenor, for Irish
traditional tunes.
Barney Mckenna is usually credited with popularizing the tenor for Irish tunes,
during the 1960s.
NOW the tenor is THE standard banjo for Irish traditional music. (Usually in
octave-mandolin tuning)
It's all part of the Banjo's family tree, and its heritage. (And we ALL have certain
family members we'd like to avoid at times, too...)
Best-
Ed Britt
••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••
beezaboy - Posted - 09/18/2009: 11:30:08
I have seen two references on the internet that state that J.B. Schall died in 1907. I need to confirm. If true, however, it means that Mr. Schall was not involved in the continued evolution of the banjeaurine and mandolin banjo into the Tenor Banjo.
I took a moment to search the print versions of Readers' Guide to Periodical Literature from 1905 to 1918 in our library. Nothing. In fact, I was humbled by the absence of banjo articles in the popular periodicals of the time and was struck by how apparently insignificant our interest is in the bigger world out there.
We are irrelevant.
Beezaboy
beezaboy - Posted - 09/19/2009: 07:05:44
Very interesting Dec 1912 interview with Mgr of Ditson's Musical Mdse Dept.
The Tenor Banjo (if there was one then) is not mentioned. "Unusually large
demand this year for...Mandolin banjos". 1913 catalog has 21 pages devoted
to the Mandolin...14 pages for the banjo. More evidence that the Mandolin
was soaring in popularity (1912-1913) and we now postulate that the Tenor
Banjo evolved to provide a dance band instrument tuned in 5ths to attract the
many musicians already generally acquainted with the fretboard and plectrum
style of playing.
arcade-museum.com/mtr/MTR-1912...25-44.pdf
Beezaboy
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