banjered - Posted - 07/27/2009:  08:42:36

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dADF#A tuning is standard "G" tuning lowered down 6 steps, OR, raised up 6 steps. I currently have a Ramsey with Nylgut Minstrel strings lowered down to "E" tuning - eBEG#B - but when I lower it two steps to "D" the strings and banjo just go slack/dead. I also have a Saga 10P which I have in "C" - cGCEG - that I would like to raise up two steps to "D". My motivation is that "D" fits my voice best plus it is in a key that works well with fiddlers or other accompanists.

So, my question is: Would anyone give me any clues to how to achieve "D" tuning with what I have to work with? Gage of strings? Do I need a 26" plus scale banjo? Thanks! TC

Mark Johnson - Posted - 07/27/2009:  09:06:14

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Wow, that's tough. That's waaay down there, or waaay up there. Here are a few thoughts:

-Thicker strings work better for the lower option. But already having Nylagut Minstrels, you may be nearing the end of the line. Maybe you could acquire some real guts that are heavier, but your fingerboard is going to get crowded.

-A longer scale would help. I find the Seeger style banjos almost unplayable down at those low frets, but maybe you could commission something just a little longer from a custom builder?

-Thinner strings will work better going up. Can you put some really light strings on the Saga and crank it up?

-I occasionally enjoy capoing way the heck up the neck. I suppose that's about the same thing as the pony banjo, but...

-Your best option is likely to start getting acquainted with a different tuning. There are all sorts of reasonable ways to reach D without all this fuss, such as aDADE and f#DF#AD. It takes time and practice of course, but all the notes are still there...

Mark

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Edited by - Mark Johnson on 07/27/2009 20:03:12

Loo P. - Posted - 07/27/2009:  09:26:56

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1st= .76mm
2nd= .85mm
3rd= .94mm
4th= .89mm J4505 Clasical Guitar "A"-5th string, normal tension, silverplated wound, D'Addario Pro-Arte
5th= .76mm Nylgut

These are the gauges that are on my Bowlin Fretless (24" scale). They work very well for dADF#A tuning. They even work well when tuned up or down a half step as well.

However, with strings this big it's going to get crowded like Mark mentioned. The string spacing on my Bowlin is somewhere around 3/8" between strings at the nut and around 1/2' at the bridge.

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Edited by - Loo P. on 07/27/2009 09:44:07

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 07/27/2009:  11:27:43

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I keep Chris Sands Classical Heavies tuned to eBEG#B a minor third below concert. I suspect they could go down another full tone but that would be about the limit for them. Sands are heavier than Nylgut standards - I don't know how they relate to the Minstrels.

If you are interested in what I say on the hangout you should download a free copy of Rocket Science Banjo - the Advanced Method For Beginning to Intermediate Clawhammer Players. Along with the full text in PDF you will also find the four current RSB videos and the "25 EZ Clawhammer Tunes" at:
http://www.rsb.pricklypearmusic.net

To print the tabs separately from the book you need TEFView a free download from:
http://www.tabledit.com

Banjo Brad is still hosting "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" and some other material at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
A site chock full of interesting banjo material

jkmacman - Posted - 07/27/2009:  12:27:29

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i tried this once, as i was trying to get the john hartford sound, i think he tuned down to e, which worked great with his deep voice, and he ussually played solo

i think you can you guitar strings, and just bump them up one, string, 5th guitar becomes 4th on your banjo (a string) etc., i guess you need an extra 2nd guitar string, as your 5th string gonna be a d, one octave above your 3rd string D

trapdoor2 - Posted - 07/27/2009:  12:38:49

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Hmmmm...

My current Hartel "Ashborn" is running those strings and tuning (dADF#A) but it has a 28" scale length. No problem....very nice feel to it.

I have also played my Flesher (26" scale) in the low D tuning but not often (IOW, I can't remember if it is too floppy).

Certainly going thicker ought to help. I used to run "High Tension" guitar strings (Aquila, Savarez) on my Knowles minstrel and thought they were perfect in the low D. Basically any HT guitar set works using the four trebles plus an additional E treble for the 5th.

The pony banjo ought to tune right up to D without problem (or capo it), I have tuned my banjeurine (normally cFCEG) a whole step up (dGDF#A) using the standard Nylgut "classic" set with out a problem.

Experiment!

===Marc

"If banjos needed tone rings, S.S. Stewart would have made them that way."

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 07/27/2009:  13:35:32

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It is a function of scale length vs. string gauge.

To maintain a particular pitch, you must increase the gauge as the scale shortens.
Conversely, decrease the gauge as the scale lengthens. You'll just need to experiment
with the gauges. A good starting point might be the gauges Loo P mentions. I have tuned
my Bowlin up to eBEG#B with those gauges, so they may work with dADF#A on your longer scale.
You may want to go a hair lighter though. You'll just have to try them out. You'll likely need
to widen the nut and bridge slots to accomodate the heavier gauges.

You may be able to order strings here although I don't know if they have a quantity minimum:
http://www.aquilausa.com/ng_strings.html

R.D. Lunceford- "Missourian in Exile"
Model 1865 Bowlin Fretless Banjo
****************************************************
"Drink from the Musselfork once, and you''ll
always come back." -Dr. Bondurant Hughes, 1917

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Edited by - R.D. Lunceford on 07/27/2009 13:36:30

Bisbonian - Posted - 07/27/2009:  19:23:13

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I have a couple of gourd banjos tuned dADF#A. One of them has Nylgut Minstrels on it, and is less floppy that the one with Nylgut Classics. I find both to be playable, though. I've just gotten used to them that way...gourd banjo seems to lend itself to a slower style of play anyway. But, a longer scale would possibly help.

Have you tried Double D? If you are interested in playing with the fiddlers, it is the most natural tuning for a whole lot of those "fiddle tunes" in D. And the string tension is fairly close to what you are used to with Open G. aDADE, or gCGCD (Double C) capoed up two frets (and somehow adjust the fifth string; capo, spike, or retune.)

Another option is "Graveyard" tuning, which can be a lot of fun...different sound. f#DF#AD. And I've played around with a dulcimer-related tuning f#DADD. Lots to experiment with.

"When Banjos are Outlawed, only Outlaws will have Banjos."

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Edited by - Bisbonian on 07/27/2009 19:26:48

minstrelmike - Posted - 07/27/2009:  19:50:54

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I'd say look at a different tuning, too. String gauge and tightness and pitch are a function of physics, not desire.

There are two types of songs, hi-bass and lo-bass, and if your range is from a low D to a hi D, then you would sing songs like Shortning Bread in the key of D while you would sing songs like Swing Low in the key of G while still singing the same notes in the same range.

If your voice fits better in D, then that is only true for a specific group of songs and for another group, the best key would be for you to sing them in G or A. That gives you more tunings to explore, not less.

Sorry.

Mike Moxcey Fort Collins, Colorado, USA
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html

banjered - Posted - 07/27/2009:  21:48:49

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Thanks all! Mark says, "There are all sorts of reasonable ways to reach D without all this fuss, such as aDADE and f#DF#AD."

It is more than just the key of "D" I am trying to reach. The range of my voice goes from about a low note of "A" to an octave plus to "E." In otherwords, from a fourth string of "A" to the first string, 7th fret, the note of "E. So the key of "D" as dADF#A is ideal plus it would give the fiddlers at least half a chance to back me in their most familier key (D). The Ramsey works fine for me both playing/tone wise and voice in the low key of "E" - eBEG#B but it is not very fiddler friendly. I think of the key of "E" as not too musically social but am I wrong (I am not a fiddler!)? Thanks for all your hints and suggestions. I'll use some of them to plug away at solving this. TC

vernob - Posted - 07/28/2009:  00:03:36

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I am stumped by this topic. If you want to sing in the key of D, you don't need to do this. What is really driving this?

Bruce Vernon

"A gentleman is a man who knows how to play the banjo, but chooses not to." - Mark Twain

"Don''t worry about mistakes. There aren''t any." - Miles Davis

Mirek Patek - Posted - 07/31/2009:  00:38:19

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quote:

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Originally posted by tom clunie

dADF#A tuning is standard "G" tuning lowered down 6 steps, OR, raised up 6 steps.

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Actually - lowered down 5 steps, not 6. Or raised up 7 steps: theoretically you may put a capo on 7th fret of G tuning, not on 6th fret, to get that high D tuning.

Mirek

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Alpha Omicron - Posted - 07/31/2009:  11:02:34

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Maybe I'm missing something, but is there a problem with tuning, say four semitones up and then putting a capo at the third fret? I guess the tension would be pretty high, hence the discussion of string gauges...